BrainMeta'   Connectomics'  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Why teenagers should steer clear of cannabis
Hey Hey
post Jul 06, 2006, 07:37 PM
Post #1


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7766
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



Why teenagers should steer clear of cannabis

Neuropsychopharmacology
Yasmin Hurd, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York
Karolinska Institute, Sweden
University of Maastricht, Netherlands

Adolescents' use of marijuana may increase the risk of heroin addiction later in life, a new study suggests. Researchers say the work adds to "overwhelming" evidence that people under 21 should not use marijuana because of the risk of damaging the developing brain.

The idea that smoking cannabis increases the user's chance of going on to take harder drugs such as heroin is highly contentious. Some dub cannabis a “gateway” drug, arguing that peer pressure and exposure to drug dealers will tempt users to escalate their drug use. Others insist that smoking cannabis is unrelated to further drug use.

Now research in rats suggests that using marijuana reduces future sensitivity to opioids, which makes people more vulnerable to heroin addiction later in life. It does so by altering the brain chemistry of marijuana users, say the researchers.

“Adolescents in particular should never take cannabis – it’s far too risky because the brain areas essential for behaviour and cognitive functioning are still developing and are very sensitive to drug exposure,” says Jasmin Hurd, who led the study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden.

But Hurd acknowledges that most people who use cannabis begin in their teens. A recent survey reported that as many as 20% of 16-year-olds in the US and Europe had illegally used cannabis in the previous month.

"Teenage" rats

In order to explore how the adolescent use of cannabis affects later drug use, Hurd and colleagues set up an experiment in rats aimed to mirror human use as closely as possible.

In the first part of the trial, six “teenage” rats were given a small dose of THC – the active chemical in cannabis – every three days between the ages of 28 and 49 days, which is the equivalent of human ages 12 to 18. The amount of THC given was roughly equivalent to a human smoking one joint every three days, Hurd explains. A control group of six rats did not receive THC.

One week after the first part was completed, catheters were inserted in all 12 of the adult rats and they were able to self-administer heroin by pushing a lever.

“At first, all the rats behaved the same and began to self-administer heroin frequently,” says Hurd. “But after a while, they stabilised their daily intake at a certain level. We saw that the ones that had been on THC as teenagers stabilised their intake at a much higher level than the others – they appeared to be less sensitive to the effects of heroin. And this continued throughout their lives.”

Hurd says reduced sensitivity to the heroin means the rats take larger doses, which has been shown to increase the risk of addiction.

Drug memory

The researchers then examined specific brain cells in the rats, including the opioid and cannabinoid receptors. They found that the rats that had been given THC during adolescence had a significantly altered opioid system in the area associated with reward and positive emotions. This is also the area linked to addiction.

“These are very specific changes and they are long-lasting, so the brain may ‘remember’ past cannabis experimentation and be vulnerable to harder drugs later in life,” Hurd says.

Neurologist Jim van Os, a cannabis expert at the University of Maastricht in the Netherlands told New Scientist the research was a welcome addition to our understanding of how cannabis affects the adolescent brain.

“The issue of cross-sensitisation of cannabis/opioid receptors has been a controversial one, but these findings show the drug’s damaging effects on the reward structures of the brain,” van Oshe says. “There is now overwhelming evidence that nobody in the brain’s developmental stage – under the age of 21 – should use cannabis.”

The research appears in the online edition of Neuropsychopharmacology.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
cerebral
post Jul 06, 2006, 10:52 PM
Post #2


Overlord
****

Group: Full Member
Posts: 286
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Member No.: 957



didn't people once say cigarettes were a gateway drug too? Some believe also believe that caffiene is a gateway drug. Where does this nonsense end?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
OnlyNow
post Jul 07, 2006, 07:13 AM
Post #3


Overlord
****

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 389
Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Member No.: 4822



QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jul 06, 10:37 PM) *

“Adolescents in particular should never take cannabis – it’s far too risky because the brain areas essential for behaviour and cognitive functioning are still developing and are very sensitive to drug exposure,” says Jasmin Hurd, who led the study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden.

“At first, all the rats behaved the same and began to self-administer heroin frequently,” says Hurd. “But after a while, they stabilised their daily intake at a certain level. We saw that the ones that had been on THC as teenagers stabilised their intake at a much higher level than the others – they appeared to be less sensitive to the effects of heroin. And this continued throughout their lives.” .

I already suspected that my brain was altered as a teen and that I'd require a LOT of heroin if I ever tried it. That's precisely why I got a good education and a job that paid really well. I've saved my money and invested wisely. Now, since heroin is my #1 goal in life, I feel totally comfortable that I can begin at any time.



User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Jul 07, 2006, 07:18 AM
Post #4


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



Alcohol is by far more harmful than cannabis, especially for teens. Focus energy where it does the most good: legalize cannabis and educate people about the evils of alcohol.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
OnlyNow
post Jul 07, 2006, 07:31 AM
Post #5


Overlord
****

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 389
Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Member No.: 4822



QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 07, 10:18 AM) *

Alcohol is by far more harmful than cannabis, especially for teens. Focus energy where it does the most good: legalize cannabis and educate people about the evils of alcohol.

I agree, and I've seen what alcohol does first-hand. Virtually everyone I know had fun with weed as teens, and now they're the pillars of our communities. While it's probably true that he who takes heroin also tried pot first (probably also alcohol and perhaps cigarettes, too), it certainly doesn't follow that everyone who smokes pot moves on to heroin.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
code buttons
post Jul 07, 2006, 07:37 AM
Post #6


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Member No.: 4556



QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 07, 07:18 AM) *

Alcohol is by far more harmful than cannabis, especially for teens. Focus energy where it does the most good: legalize cannabis and educate people about the evils of alcohol.

I couldn't agree more with that rationality. Alcohol and hard drugs wreck lifes by way of mental, emotional and physical destruction of a person.
But if this study turns out to hold true for humans too, then it's worth its merits. I wonder how they handle this age issue in places like Copenhagen and Amsterdam, where cannabis comsumption is not ilegal.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Jul 07, 2006, 09:21 AM
Post #7


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



In most animal studies of abusable drugs, the animals are given very high doses in order to speed things up and to make the findings unequivocal. Usually the blood level of a drug in a self-dosing human will be many times lower than in the animal study.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Jul 07, 2006, 11:02 AM
Post #8


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7766
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 07, 06:21 PM) *

In most animal studies of abusable drugs, the animals are given very high doses in order to speed things up and to make the findings unequivocal. Usually the blood level of a drug in a self-dosing human will be many times lower than in the animal study.

References please Rick. As much as I respect your knowledge of the physical sciences I know that you are not a pharmacologist, and you would usually be the first to take anecdotes with a pinch of salt.

But also note that related to the conditioning dose, very high doses were not given:

.......In the first part of the trial, six “teenage” rats were given a small dose of THC – the active chemical in cannabis – every three days between the ages of 28 and 49 days, which is the equivalent of human ages 12 to 18. The amount of THC given was roughly equivalent to a human smoking one joint every three days, Hurd explains.....

Thereafter the heroin doses were self administered (not externally dosed) and your statement is thus incorrect with regard to both THC and heroin in this study.

I agree entirely with your comments on alcohol. As a moderate imbiber (you already know what of), I gain great benefits, but the societal/health problems are well documented. Hence my dismay at the UK's new "open all hours" drinking policy that is only adding to the already serious incidence of liver disease and to the decay of city centres, that are no more than public urinals after dark on most nights.

Anyway, back to my Scotch (I've run out of Irish) before a nice moderate family orientated Friday evening of drinking (Rioja) and eating. Well, summer doesn't last long here and we have to make the best of every minute! Have a nice weekend.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Jul 10, 2006, 09:08 AM
Post #9


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jul 07, 12:02 PM) *
But also note that related to the conditioning dose, very high doses were not given...

It sounds like a valid study.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Darksanity
post Sep 18, 2006, 05:46 PM
Post #10


Aspiring
**

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Member No.: 5552



So much propaganda bullshit. Alcohol and Nicotine are way (edit)more harmful drugs...
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
lucid_dream
post Sep 18, 2006, 06:07 PM
Post #11


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1711
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Member No.: 956



QUOTE(Darksanity @ Sep 18, 2006, 06:46 PM) *

So much propaganda bullshit. Alcohol and Nicotine are way harder drugs...

what are you talking about? Alcohol and nicotine don't cause you to hallucinate in the way that cannabis can. I know some ppl just get stoned and chill out, especially for chronic users, but for others when they're first experimenting, it's very hallucinogenic.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
code buttons
post Sep 18, 2006, 07:16 PM
Post #12


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Member No.: 4556



QUOTE(Darksanity @ Sep 18, 2006, 05:46 PM) *

So much propaganda bullshit. Alcohol and Nicotine are way harder drugs...


Correction:
So much propaganda bullshit. Alcohol and Nicotine are way MORE HARMFUL drugs...
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
lucid_dream
post Sep 18, 2006, 07:24 PM
Post #13


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1711
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Member No.: 956



what's harmful about nicotine, besides being addictive and being used as insecticide?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maximus242
post Sep 18, 2006, 07:40 PM
Post #14


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1755
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Member No.: 4768



heh maybe agree to disagree and say all three should be avoided?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
code buttons
post Sep 18, 2006, 07:50 PM
Post #15


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Member No.: 4556



QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 18, 2006, 07:24 PM) *

what's harmful about nicotine, besides being addictive and being used as insecticide?

$3.00/package, high lung and/or throat cancer death rates, very offensive to non-smokers, lots of unintentional fire hazards, and worst of all: powerful lobbyist who keep the truth about its short and long term effects as secret as possible so that it may remain legal.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Darksanity
post Sep 19, 2006, 12:53 PM
Post #16


Aspiring
**

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Member No.: 5552



QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 18, 2006, 10:07 PM) *

QUOTE(Darksanity @ Sep 18, 2006, 06:46 PM) *

So much propaganda bullshit. Alcohol and Nicotine are way (edit)more harmful drugs...

what are you talking about? Alcohol and nicotine don't cause you to hallucinate in the way that cannabis can. I know some ppl just get stoned and chill out, especially for chronic users, but for others when they're first experimenting, it's very hallucinogenic.


Does it mean it's harmful? Ur brainwashed like most of our society, I know by experience that's it's way less harmful on the long AND shor-term than nicotine and alcohol. When ur drunk u do so much more stupid stuff that u'll feel bad about later, what about liver damage? I'm sorry but we should keep teens away from alcohol (wich to my eyes is comparable to an "hard" drug) and nicotine (totally useless and addictive) and legalize marijuana. Go smoke a joint and then get drunk and let's compare the damage/intoxication/addictiveness.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
code buttons
post Sep 19, 2006, 01:47 PM
Post #17


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Member No.: 4556



"A single glass of wine will impair your driving more than smoking a joint. And under certain test conditions, the complex way alcohol and cannabis combine to affect driving behaviour suggests that someone who has taken both may drive less recklessly than a person who is simply drunk."
New Scientist March 2002 (linked)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
lucid_dream
post Sep 19, 2006, 05:35 PM
Post #18


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1711
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Member No.: 956



QUOTE(code buttons @ Sep 19, 2006, 02:47 PM) *

"A single glass of wine will impair your driving more than smoking a joint. And under certain test conditions, the complex way alcohol and cannabis combine to affect driving behaviour suggests that someone who has taken both may drive less recklessly than a person who is simply drunk."
New Scientist March 2002 (linked)


experience tells otherwise. Just another reason to remain sceptical of the New Scientist
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Sep 20, 2006, 06:42 AM
Post #19


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



Linking cannabis to heroin use in any way is ridiculous.
Our kids crave sugar like a drug and get hyped up because of it.
Our kids will see us drunk at one point or another, and smoking.
Their teenage years and childhood make them curious of other things that they can ingest, and so alcohol and cigarettes are the first testers. Once the everyday drugs are not a novelty anymore, either the behaviour will stop or change form.

What about gamblers and shopaholics, aren't they more prone to addictive behaviours?

Nothing on this planet should be illegal. Crimes against people should stay illegal, but what you do to yourself should remain free. The problem is our own government has used misinformation historically and this just makes the population lose confidence.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Darksanity
post Sep 21, 2006, 04:32 AM
Post #20


Aspiring
**

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Member No.: 5552



Actually "gateway drug" like u said is probably tobacco and alcohol...
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Sep 21, 2006, 04:48 AM
Post #21


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7766
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



Many comments above relate to anecdotal or personal, unsubstantiated experiences, whereas the article by Yasmin Hurd has conclusions derived from an scientifically accepted study. The issues raised above on alcohol and nicotine have no bearing on the findings of the Hurd study. I had hoped for some critical comments on the Hurd findings and not biased comments, or rather "beefs" trying to justify their drug-taking by certain responders. We try to maintain a scientific bias on BrainMeta. Sometimes this is difficult. It is also useful if we keep to the point. Sometimes this is also difficult. Few comments above have stated anything useful about the Hurd investigation, that yielded important results that deserve serious discussion.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Sep 21, 2006, 06:46 AM
Post #22


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jul 07, 2006, 04:37 AM) *

...
Now research in rats suggests that using marijuana reduces future sensitivity to opioids, which makes people more vulnerable to heroin addiction later in life. It does so by altering the brain chemistry of marijuana users, say the researchers.
...
In order to explore how the adolescent use of cannabis affects later drug use, Hurd and colleagues set up an experiment in rats aimed to mirror human use as closely as possible.

In the first part of the trial, six “teenage” rats were given a small dose of THC – the active chemical in cannabis – every three days between the ages of 28 and 49 days, which is the equivalent of human ages 12 to 18. The amount of THC given was roughly equivalent to a human smoking one joint every three days, Hurd explains. A control group of six rats did not receive THC.

One week after the first part was completed, catheters were inserted in all 12 of the adult rats and they were able to self-administer heroin by pushing a lever.

“At first, all the rats behaved the same and began to self-administer heroin frequently,” says Hurd. “But after a while, they stabilised their daily intake at a certain level. We saw that the ones that had been on THC as teenagers stabilised their intake at a much higher level than the others – they appeared to be less sensitive to the effects of heroin. And this continued throughout their lives.”

Hurd says reduced sensitivity to the heroin means the rats take larger doses, which has been shown to increase the risk of addiction.


Its rats not people and the focus of the research is on the most complex part of a human - the brain.
We have no idea why the rats that had THC in their "teens" self-administered more heroin, it is possible they were used to a "hit" and so didn't exhibit as much fear as the non-THC rats. Also the more heroin initially taken, the more heroin will be subsequently needed, thereby the heroin use may have grown exponentially in the rats that were used to being high.

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jul 07, 2006, 04:37 AM) *

...
They found that the rats that had been given THC during adolescence had a significantly altered opioid system in the area associated with reward and positive emotions. This is also the area linked to addiction.

“These are very specific changes and they are long-lasting, so the brain may ‘remember’ past cannabis experimentation and be vulnerable to harder drugs later in life,” Hurd says.
...

“The issue of cross-sensitisation of cannabis/opioid receptors has been a controversial one, but these findings show the drug’s damaging effects on the reward structures of the brain,” van Oshe says. “There is now overwhelming evidence that nobody in the brain’s developmental stage – under the age of 21 – should use cannabis.”


Firstly I agree that it certain areas of the brain displaying change when exposed to THC is interesting, the research is probably sound. However what I disagree with is the black and white conclusions hinted at in this research. We don't know enough about the brain to say one way or another, despite what the research appears to look like. Permanently affecting "Areas" of the brain is a little vague for me. Until I see every millimeter of the brain accounted for and all its processes understood, I will never take these studies seriously.

"They found that the rats that had been given THC during adolescence had a significantly altered opioid system in the area associated with reward and positive emotions" If the rats enjoyed the experience, wouldn't this make sense? Enjoyment, escapism and selfishness create addiction, and if a person has an addictive personality, which we all do to some extent, the desires will be channeled into other activities like gambling or sexual perversions. We can't erradicate addictions, not without restructuring society and our methods.

So this study saying that cannabis use before the age of 21 can permanently "alter" the way your brain emtionally rewards itself, and make you self-administer more heroin than people who didn't smoke cannabis. The larger the dosing of heroin, the more likely addiction is to form.

I can agree with that research, sure. However the research is completely pointless in a reality setting. Below is a list of drugs and a taboo level I've just made up on the spot. (Ive left out psychedelics)

Drug-Taboo lvl
sugar-0
caffiene-0
alcohol-1
nicotine-2
cannabis-5
amphetamine-10
cocaine-20
heroin-40
crack cocaine-40

I've taken the "taboo values" from my own experience of the observed levels of ignorance and misunderstanding.

Who knows of anyone that has taken up heroin without touching any of the lesser taboo substances?
Who starts at heroin/crack and works backwards?
Anyone who tries cannabis is more likely to do more heroin and so become more easily addicted, but to get to heroin almost EVERYONE will have smoked cannabis, and I believe a huge proportion of those people will have done so in their teens. So will this information stop the problem? No.

You mention that most of the posts in this topic are unsubstantiated experiences, well I believe all experiences are personal and so are unable to be substantiated. Since I didn't partake in the experiment, and have deep distrust of these kind of studies because they usually have political motives behind them, ill choose my own reality based knowledge over the research above.

As for "beefs" trying to justify their drug-taking, I personally don't have to justify myself to anyone on this matter. I posted my experience of reality, something that this research lacks. Anything enjoyable that happens to you will "rewire" your brain in some way, big news...

How many teenagers do you know that will think about possible future heroin use when they're about to smoke their first joint?

Hopefully this post will satisfy your requirements for replies and maybe guide the matter into areas that you want to chat about instead of leaving it open and then tearing into the replies.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
xanadu
post Sep 21, 2006, 12:32 PM
Post #23


Awakening
***

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 174
Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Member No.: 4955



LD wrote:

"what are you talking about? Alcohol and nicotine don't cause you to hallucinate in the way that cannabis can."

Sorry, but that is totally incorrect. Have you ever heard of the DT's also known as delirium tremlins? It is a condition brought on by excessive alcohol use that does cause many frightening hallucinations. Hundreds of thousands of people die every year from alcohol abuse. No one has ever died directly from a cannabis overdose. Not only acute alcohol intoxication kills but also does harm in the long term from lesser doses such as by cirrhosis of the liver. It has been implicated in causing cancer and increasing the risk of many diseases.

Nicotine kills probably even more people every year than alcohol. I don't want to get into a big side track on those two drugs. Do a search and you will find all the studies you want. No one has died as a direct result of cannabis use. Case closed.

I think it should be restricted to young people but made legal for adults.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Darksanity
post Sep 22, 2006, 10:30 AM
Post #24


Aspiring
**

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Member No.: 5552



It'S actually easier and cheaper for kids to get nice colorful Methamphetamine and MDMA pills with nice logos on them than Tobacco and Alcohol ... The war on drugs is so much shit... imagine what it will be in a few years if it goes on like that O_o
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BornaDreamer
post Sep 27, 2006, 01:11 AM
Post #25


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Member No.: 5735



Wow, so much to say to all this...

Okay, so first of all, I dont' know that I buy that because weed consumption in the "teen" years increases later tolerance to heroin that it also leads to the DESIRE for heroin or heroin ADDICTION. You have to try something initially for it to matter at all whether it as a greater or lesser effect on you, and this study didn't prove that the rats were more likely to want to try heroin or that people are. In addiction, just because the weed rats required more heroin to get high, it doesn't mean they were addicted or more likely to become addicted. It sounds to me like ALL the rats became addicted. And personally, if something has less of an effect on me (so it costs more for me to get high and I have to consume more) I'm going to be less likely to continue using it and therefore be less likely to become addicted. So basically what this proved to me is that ingesting weed as a teenager will lead to you having a higher tolerance for heroin later in life... so what? You might be less likely to die of an overdose later on that you would have been otherwise. That seems like a good thing to me.

Another problem I'm having is what the comment about how cigarettes and alcohol weren't as bad because they dont' cause you to hallucinate and weed does. This is also very problematic. Not only does alcohol often cause people to hallucinate (and weed rarely does) but there is an inherant assumption here: that hallucinating is bad. Personally I don't hallucinate when I smoke OR drink but I think it would be a better thing for someone to hallucinate a little bit than to become angry and become violent. The latter is a tendency associated with drinking and that I have yet to find with marijuana.

Finally, I wanted to address the scientific bias. In this post, I have actually stayed fairly scientific and pointed out real methodological flaws with generalizing the results. I then used logic to address the second issue. I did not use much purely personal experience, although I did mention it to support my arguments. However, I do feel that personal experience can be a powerful pool in experiencing and learning about reality. I am also very familar with research and scientific design (I am currently conducting my own research on mindfulness and attention) and I am aware of its many flaws and shortcomings. Not least of these is its vulnerability to bias and the ability to skew results and statistics. Science can also often see reality only in a very limited and often artificial context. For these reasons and many more, I often give as much or more credence to real human experience than to data produced in some lab.

Enough of my ranting.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Sep 27, 2006, 11:35 AM
Post #26


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



According to some credible literature I have read on the subject, the hallucinations caused by alcohol withdrawl (delerium tremens, or DTs) are real hallucinations and can be very frightening for the victim because he does not know he is hallucinating. On the other hand, the hallucinations caused by cannabis smoking are actually pseudo-hallucinations because the smoker knows they are due to the drug's effect, and can be enjoyable, such as in seeing animals in the clouds or a face in the Moon. Such imagery is also a part of normal relaxed recreational mind enjoyment. Psychiatrists say that people unable to see imagery in inkblots, for example, are abnormal.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BornaDreamer
post Sep 27, 2006, 09:37 PM
Post #27


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Member No.: 5735



Exactly. I fail to see why hallucinations are necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on what you are hallucinating and how you feel about it.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
lucid_dream
post Sep 27, 2006, 10:06 PM
Post #28


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1711
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Member No.: 956



I never said hallucinations were a bad thing. I agree that the creative mind, an active imagination, and hallucinations are inter-related. What I said was that nicotine and alcohol are not harder drugs than cannabis. Only the die-hard cannabis user will object to this and go on the defensive, and their opinion is expected to be overly biased. I'm trying to be somewhat objective here. The thing about nicotine killing ppl is crap. Lung disease from tar and carcinogens in cigarette smoke might kill ppl, but nicotine itself doesn't. Nicotine stimulates receptors in the brain and enhances attention and hippocampal theta. Nicotine itself does not cause hallucinations, nor does moderate alcohol consumption. Sudden withdrawal from alcohol in alcoholics is a different matter that, while interesting to note, is not really relevant as an argument that alcohol is hallucinogenic, since if you allow that, then probably stuff like sudden chocolate withdrawal in chocolate addicts also falls into that category of hallucinogenic substances.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BornaDreamer
post Sep 28, 2006, 12:46 AM
Post #29


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Member No.: 5735



Okay, point taken. But alcohol DOES kill people. I guess it all depends on how you define "hard." My point is that I don't think hallucinating qualities make a drug "harder." I would have to say that how hard a drug is really is largely determined by how the society perceives the drug. Social stigma plays more into it than biological facts. But if you want to base it on something biological or scientific, then you need to define your term. If marijuana is harder, or ever if alcohol ISN'T harder than marijuana, then you have to explain exactly what harder means to you. For me, I'd say that alcohol is harder because it kills. Also much more addiction potential. Even if you are going to say marijuana is addictive, which in some ways I'll grant you it can be, both nicotine and alcohol are much more addictive. So alcohol kills, alcohol and nicotine are more addictive than marijuana.... I'm having a hard time seeing how marijuana can be described as the harder drug. If your definition of harder is that if causes you to hallucinate when used (not just when experiencing withdraw) then I suppose maybe you're right, or at least I won't argue the point, but I think its a weak definition of hard drugs.


By the way, I'm really just arguing because like I said, none of this really matters to me. To me "hard" is a social construct and THAT'S the real reason people think marijuana is the harder drug.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Sep 28, 2006, 07:16 AM
Post #30


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



To be honest, calling cannabis an hallucinogen is stretching it quite a way. Cannabis is addictive and causes grumpy-ass behaviour on withdrawal of higher THC levels, however you wont hallucinate from the withdrawal.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th November 2017 - 08:07 PM


Home     |     About     |    Research     |    Forum     |    Feedback  


Copyright BrainMeta. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use  |  Last Modified Tue Jan 17 2006 12:39 am

Consciousness Expansion · Brain Mapping · Neural Circuits · Connectomics  ·  Neuroscience Forum  ·  Brain Maps Blog
 · Connectomics · Connectomics  ·  shawn mikula  ·  shawn mikula  ·  articles