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> Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
sushil_yadav
post Jun 19, 2006, 06:40 PM
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The link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues.

The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be peaceful if we destroy Nature.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment.

Subject : In a fast society slow emotions become extinct.
Subject : A thinking mind cannot feel.
Subject : Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys the planet.
Subject : Environment can never be saved as long as cities exist.


Emotion is what we experience during gaps in our thinking.

If there are no gaps there is no emotion.

Today people are thinking all the time and are mistaking thought (words/ language) for emotion.


When society switches-over from physical work (agriculture) to mental work (scientific/ industrial/ financial/ fast visuals/ fast words ) the speed of thinking keeps on accelerating and the gaps between thinking go on decreasing.

There comes a time when there are almost no gaps.

People become incapable of experiencing/ tolerating gaps.

Emotion ends.

Man becomes machine.


A society that speeds up mentally experiences every mental slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety.

A ( travelling )society that speeds up physically experiences every physical slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety.

A society that entertains itself daily experiences every non-entertaining moment as Depression / Anxiety.


Fast visuals/ words make slow emotions extinct.

Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys emotional circuits.

A fast (large) society cannot feel pain / remorse / empathy.

A fast (large) society will always be cruel to Animals/ Trees/ Air/ Water/ Land and to Itself.



I am trying to get the following experiment conducted in a psychophysiology/ bio-chemistry laboratory.

There is a link between visual / verbal speed ( in perception, memory,
imagery ) and the bio-chemical state of the brain and the body.

Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual and verbal processing
associated with the emotion slows down ( stops / freezes ).

The degree of difficulty of an emotion depends upon the degree of
freezing (of visuals and words ) required to intensify and sustain that
particular emotion.


Experiment:

Subjects (preferably actors specialising in tragedy / tragic roles )
will be asked to watch a silent video film showing any of the
following:-

(1) Human suffering.
(2) Animal suffering.
(3) Suffering ( Destruction ) of Air / Water / Land / Trees.

Subjects will be asked to intensify and sustain the subjective feeling of pain/ grief for the sufferer.

The chemical changes associated with the emotion in the body(blood) would be measured by appropriate methods.

The silent video film will be shown at different speeds :
(1) 125% of actual speed.
(2) Actual/real speed.
(3) 75% of actual speed.
(4) 50% of actual speed.
(5) 25% of actual speed.


Results :

(1) Intensity of emotion increases with the decrease in visual speed.
(2) Intensity of emotion is maximum when visual speed is minimum (25%
of actual speed)
(3) The amount of chemical change associated with the emotion in the
body(blood) will be found to increase with the decrease in visual speed.
(4) The chemical change is maximum when visual speed is minimum.
(5) The amount of chemical change will increase with the decrease in
breathing rate. Breathing becomes so slow and non-rhythmic that it stops
for some time at the inhalation/ exhalation stages.

The above co-relations will be valid for all subjects -even for those who cannot feel pain/ grief. Such subjects will experience emotion associated with boredom/ discomfort/ restlessness/ irritability/ uneasiness. The chemicals released will be different but the co-relation between visual speed and amount of chemical will be same( the breathing rates will be different/ fast). All subjects will experience some kind of emotion.

[If scientists can discover 4000 different chemicals in cigarette-smoke then they can certainly detect the few chemicals released in blood when weexperience higher-level emotions like pain, empathy, compassion, remorse etc… ]

In the 2nd stage of experiment we shall replace the silent video film with a Narrator ( Audio only ) and repeat the procedure thereby establishing the link between intensity of emotion and verbal speed. The narrator will slow down verbal speed by-- speaking slowly, stretching words, repetition of words/ sentences & making use of
pause/ silence between words.

Please note:
(1) A thinking mind cannot intensify / sustain any emotion.
While this statement is generally true for all emotions, it is particularly true for all painful emotions.

(2) Pain / remorse / empathy cannot be experienced in a society in which visual (verbal) speed and breathing- rates are fast . It is impossible.


PROOF.
Proof of the link between pain and slow visuals / words :-

In the last century man has made thousands of movies / films on various
themes / subjects. Whenever pain / tragedy is shown in any film the
visuals ( scenes ) and words ( dialogues ) are always slowed down. In
many films tragedy is shown in slow motion. At the most intense moment
of pain the films almost become static / stationary.

Tragedy-films provide direct proof / evidence of the link between pain
and slowness.

Pain can intensify / sustain only when visual ( and verbal ) speed slows
down( stops/ freezes).


Change in visual speed over the years.

One thousand years ago visuals would change only when man physically
moved himself to a new place or when other people ( animals / birds )
and objects ( clouds / water ) physically moved themselves before him.

Today man sits in front of TV / Computer and watches the rapidly
changing visuals / audio.

He sits in a vehicle ( car / train / bus ) and as it moves he watches
the rapidly changing visuals.

He turns the pages of a book / newspaper / magazine and sees many
visuals / text in a short span.


Change in verbal speed over the years.

In ancient times verbal processing was “live” in nature—ie it happened when people actually spoke.
Today there is non-stop verbal processing inside the mind through print and electronic media ( newspapers, books, magazines, radio, television, computer etc…) as a result of which the verbal content & speed has increased thousands of times.


The speed of visuals ( and words ) has increased so much during the last
one hundred years that today the human brain has become incapable of
focussing on slow visuals /words through perception, memory, imagery.

If we cannot focus on slow visuals / words we cannot experience emotions associated with slow visuals /words.



Before the advent of Industrial Revolution Man's thinking was primarily
limited to :

(a) visual processing ( slow visuals )
(b) verbal / language processing ( slow words )

Today there are many kinds of fast thinking :

(1) visual processing ( fast visuals )
(2) verbal / language processing ( fast words )
(3) Scientific / Technical thinking ( fast )
(4) Industrial thinking ( fast )
(5) Business thinking ( fast )

(3), (4) & (5) are associated with Numbers / Symbols / Equations /
Graphs /Circuits / Diagrams / Money / Accounting etc…

As long as the mind is doing this kind of thinking it cannot feel any
emotion - not an iota of emotion.

In a fast society slow emotions become extinct.
In a thinking ( scientific / industrial ) society emotion itself becomes extinct.

Emotion is what remains in the mind when visual/ verbal processing slows down (stops/ freezes)


There are certain categories of people who feel more emotion (subjective experience ) than others.

If we attempt to understand why (and how ) they feel more emotion we can learn a lot about emotion.

Writers, poets, actors, painters ( and other artists )

Writers
Writers do verbal ( and associated visual) processing whole day- every day.
They do slow verbal ( and associated visual) processing every day.
(A novel that we read in 2 hours might have taken 2 years to write. This is also the reason why the reader can never feel the intensity & duration of emotion experienced by the writer )

Poets
Poets do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day. There is more emotion in poetry than in prose. This happens because there are very few words ( and associated visuals ) in poetry than in any other kind of writing. There is a very high degree of freezing / slowing down of visuals & words in poetry.

Actors
Actors do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day. During shooting / rehearsal they repeat the dialogues ( words ) again and again ( the associated visuals / scenes also get repeated along with the dialogues )

Painters
Painters do visual ( and associated verbal ) processing whole day- every day. They do extremely slow visual processing - The visual on the canvas changes only when the painter adds to what already exists on the canvas.


There are some important points to be noted :

All these people do visual & verbal processing - whole day - every day.
They do slow visual & verbal processing.
They do not do scientific / industrial / business processing whole day - every day.

Most of the city people doing mental work either do this kind of mental processing which is associated with Numbers / Symbols/ Equations / Graphs / Circuits / Diagrams / Money / Accounting etc… or they do fast visual ( verbal ) processing whole day - every day.

This kind of thinking ( processing ) has come into existence only during the last 200 years and has destroyed our emotional ability ( circuits ).


Once we speed up our minds we become incapable of slowing down [it would take years of effort to slow down]. One can understand it this way - A supercomputer cannot process at the rate of an ordinary computer. Once we speed up [and we have been speeding up for several generations now] we cannot slow down because the neural circuits get altered - the bio-chemistry of the brain and its anatomy changes.



Self-Assessment of ( subjective ) intensity of emotion is almost always wrong.

Suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of a particular emotion that
can be experienced by any human being is 100 units.

Let us suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of that particular emotion ever
experienced by two people A & B in their entire life is :
A - 100units
B - 20 units

Now suppose A & B are made subjects on a particular day and are asked
to feel that particular emotion under experimental conditions ( or
outside the laboratory ) and the intensity &duration they actually experience is :

A - 90 units
B - 18 units

If A & B are then asked to indicate the intensity &duration of emotion on a scale
of 0 -10 their response is likely to be ;

A - 9
B - 9

Who is right and who is wrong ?
A is right.
B is wrong - B is wrong by a wide margin - B has experienced an
intensity(and duration) of 18 units out of a maximum of 100 units and his correct / actual score should be 1.8

Self- assessment ( self rating ) can be accurate only if people have
the capacity to experience the highest intensity &duration ( units ) of the
particular emotion under study.



In small(slow)agriculture-based societies the mind used to experience a state of emotion all the time because of physical work and slow visual/verbal processing . People who do physical work experience the same good subjective-feeling which is experienced by people who do physical excercise. [People who do physical work also sleep much better than people who do mental work - the quality of sleep is much better]. If we read one thousand-year-old literature we will not come across the term "boredom" - the concept of boredom did not exist in slow societies. There were long gaps between different visuals and between words/ sentences - and people had the ability to experience/ tolerate the gaps - it was normal for them.

Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual / verbal processing slows down ( stops / freezes ). In an Industrial (thinking) society people experience very little emotion because of fast ( visual / verbal / scientific / industrial / business ) thinking.

Suppose the maximum intensity and duration of a particular emotion ( for most people ) in a fast society has reduced to 5 units ( from 100 units that people used to experience in earlier /slower societies ).

If such people experience 4 units of emotion they will give themselves a
rating /score of 8 on a scale of 0-10 whereas their actual score should
be 0.4


[Please note :
Fast emotions =emotions associated with fast visuals/fast words/fast breathing/fast heart-rate.
Slow emotions=emotions associated with slow visuals/slow words/slow breathing/slow heart-rate.
Rate of thinking=number of visuals/words processed per minute.
Gaps between thinking =gaps between visuals/ words/ sentences.]


Thoughts and Emotions are interlinked - but different things - totally/ completly different.

Words can be spoken - words can be read - words can be heard.

Emotion is a subjective-experience. Other examples of subjective experience are taste, smell, touch, headache, stomach pain.

One can understand the difference this way :

When we eat an apple we can feel the taste of apple. Apple can give us the taste of apple - but apple is not taste.

If we pour apple juice into a glass - the glass will not feel the taste - it does not have the ability to feel taste.

If a person eats an apple he will feel the taste - because he has the ability to generate taste from apple.

Words/ Visuals can evoke, intensify and sustain emotions - but words/ visuals are not emotions.



In every field there is easy work/activity and difficult work/activity.

In mathematics there is easy mathematics and difficult mathematics. Everyone can add 2+4 within microseconds. A PhD level problem of mathematics would take hours [or more] to solve - and that too only by someone who has spent 20 - 25 years learning mathematics upto PhD level.

Same way in the field of emotions there are easy emotions and difficult emotions. Easy emotions are evoked within nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds - anger, lust, fear, pleasure, entertainment and excitement are some examples. These emotions are associated with fast breathing and heart-rate. These emotions don"t require gaps between thinking to evoke, intensify and sustain. These are the emotions that can be found everywhere in today's fast society.

Then there are difficult emotions - which require ability and years of effort to develop - emotions associated with pain, compassion and peaceful states of mind are some examples. These emotions are associated with slow breathing and heart-rate. These emotions require freezing of thought - freezing of visuals and words - huge amounts of gaps between thinking - to evoke, intensify and sustain.


The experiments I have proposed are primarily meant for those people who understand only the language of science. We don't need experiments to understand that our present lifestyle is destroying our Minds and Environment - the evidence is everywhere - left, right and center. The craze and fetish for science and scientific proof has mainly existed for the last 50 - 100 years. People have lived on this planet for thousands of years without needing scientific proof to understand something. It is Science and Technology that created the consumerist Industrial Society which has led to the destruction of Mind and Nature/ Environment. Who needs more science or more scientific proof. Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.

Some people demand proof of everything. They won't accept anything without proof. How do people accept their father as their father? Where is the proof?
Scientific proof comes from DNA testing. How many people have got the DNA test conducted?

Two things that have destroyed Environment are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism. Science and Technology is responsible for both these problems. World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly. In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control. If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist. In the absence of Science, Technology and "Industrial Revolution" we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems - overpopulation and overconsumerism.

Humans are incapable of making solutions. Humans have always created problems. All solutions of Man have actually been problems in disguise - they have led to bigger and greater problems. The quest for a solution is the biggest problem in itself.


IQ Vs EQ

IQ always has an element of change in it – IQ is about trying to make/ discover/ invent something new all the time.
Change is an inherent feature of IQ.
IQ is also about thinking more in less time—it involves speeding up of mind. Someone who does more mathematics in less time is considered more intelligent in mathematics. IQ is about change and speed.

EQ is about sustainment of the same feeling/experience over a period of time. When we experience any higher-level emotion for 10 minutes we experience the same feeling( subjective experience) over and over again for 10 minutes.
The( same) feeling can sustain only if there is Repetition.
EQ involves Repetition—Constancy—Sameness.

IQ and EQ are contradictory.
IQ and EQ are opposites.
IQ and EQ are inversely proportional.



(1) A thinking species destroys the planet.
(2) Animals lived on earth for billions of years (in very large numbers)
without destroying nature.
(3) They did not destroy nature because their thinking / activity was
limited to searching for food for one time only.
(4) Man has existed on earth in large numbers for only a few thousand
years / a few hundred years.
(5) Within this short period Man has destroyed the environment.
(6) This destruction took place because of Man's thinking.
(7) When man thinks he makes things.
(8) When he makes things he kills animals / trees / air / water / land.
( Nothing can be made without killing these five elements of nature ).

(9) A thinking species destroys the planet.



Intelligence Is A Curse.

This planet is on the verge of total destruction.

The cause of destruction is – overactivity.
[Out of millions of species in this world the human-species is the only one that has indulged in overactivity]

The cause of overactivity is – Intelligence.
[The environment would never have got destroyed if Man had been only as intelligent as animals]

Intelligence is a curse - a disease - a disability - an abnormality.

Intelligence is the biggest cause/ source of destruction in this world.

[In fact Intelligence is the only cause of destruction in this world other than natural causes]



Mental work is injurious to the mind and planet.

Life was never good in the past.

Life will never be good in future.

Life can never be good.


Suffering is a part of life - an inherent feature of life. Suffering can never be eliminated.

There is Physical suffering - There is Mental suffering.

In pre-industrial society there were physical diseases caused by virus and bacteria.
In modern society there are hundreds of lifestyle related physical diseases - Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes, Obesity, Multiple Organ Failures.


Mental suffering will always exist. It exists in agrarian society. It exists in industrial society. As soon as we stop working we experience mental suffering.

We avoid mental suffering by working ceaselessly.

There is no higher purpose behind work.

People do not work because they want to work.
People work because they cannot stop working.

The energy generated by the food we eat forces us to work ceaselessly.

Energy = Energy[Physical Work] + Energy[Mental Work] + Energy[Suffering/ Subjective Experience]

All three energies on the right side are inversely proportional to one another.

When we do hard physical work or hard mental work or a combination of physical work and mental work almost all energy is used up in doing work.

When we stop physical work and mental work the unused energy is experienced as suffering/ anxiety/ restlessness/ discomfort. This suffering is so intense - so unbearable - that most people cannot stop physical activity and mental activity simultaneously for even 2 minutes - they can stop work/activity only under the influence of drugs and alcohol.

People do not work because they want to work.
People do not work for their family.
People do not work for their nation.
People do not work for any reason.

People work because they cannot stop working.

It does not matter what kind of work we do - whether it is physical work or any kind of mental work. As soon as we stop working we suffer from restlessness, anxiety, uneasiness and discomfort.

[ In Yoga and Meditation the goal is to stop Physical Activity and Mental Activity simultaneously - and then transform the subjective-experience of restlessness/ anxiety/ suffering into peace. This requires ability and years of effort ]

For most people the choice is between physical and mental work.
The switch-over from physical work to mental work is disastrous for the planet.

Man can do the same physical work every day.
Man cannot do the same mental work every day.

When man used to do physical work ( farming and related activities ) he could do the same repetitive work day after day- generation after generation.

After the Industrial Revolution when man switched-over to mental work he began a never ending process of making new machines / things / products-- a process which can only end with the complete destruction of environment ( planet ).

When we make consumer goods we kill Animals/ Trees, Air/ Water and Land - directly or indirectly.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - all Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is "Capitalist Industrial Society" - "Communist Industrial Society" - or "Socialist Industrial Society".

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. Industry kills Water. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted.

Industry/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.


Today 50% of world population - 3 bilion people are living in cities. The necessary work of growing/producing Food is being done outside cities - in villages and countryside. Most of the people living in cities are engaged in unnecessary work - making things, buying things and selling things. The switch-over from Physical work to Mental work/ Desk job has led to an endless cycle of unnecessary and destructive work.

When society switches over from physical work to mental work it starts making thousands of consumer goods. People start calling them necessities. They are not necessities at all - 90% of consumer goods that we see today did not exist 50 years ago.

Food, Water, Air, Little clothing, Little Shelter - these are necessities.

Close your nose and stop breathing for a few minutes - you will then know what necessity is.

Stop drinking water for a few days - you will then know what necessity is.

Stop eating food for a few days - you will then know what necessity is.

Today people are making thousands of consumer goods - not because they are necessities - but because they cannot stop making them. People cannot stop doing work - After switching over to mental work they will keep on making thousands of unnecessary consumer goods. Industrial Society is destroying necessary things[Animals,Trees,Air,Water and Land] for makng unnecessary things[Consumer Goods]. This is the reason why the switch-over from physical work to mental work is so destructive. This is the point of no-return - once this is crossed the destruction of Environment/ Nature is inevitable.

If we live a simple life there is individual suffering - but no largescale destruction of Environment.

If we live a consumerist life there is individual suffering - plus largescale destruction of Environment.


The nature of mental work is such that man has to do new mental work every day- in fact he has to do new mental work every moment- Man cannot repeat in the next moment the mental work that he has already done in the previous moment.

A mathematician cannot solve the same problem of mathematics every day- once he has solved it he will be forced to take up a new( unsolved) problem. Even when he is solving one particular problem he has to move from one step to another - there is a continuous change involved -- there is no constancy at any stage.

An engineer cannot design the same machine again and again –once he has made a machine he will try to make changes/ design a new one.

A writer cannot write the same article every day- he will be forced to write something new every day/ every moment (This is also the reason behind endless discussions/ debates/ arguments).


Discussions, Debates and Arguments.

Let us examine how much discussion we are collectively having in Industrial Society every day.

Millions of pages in print – newspapers / books / magazines.
Millions of web-pages on internet every day.

Now add to this all the conversation (discussion) we are having through radio / television / telephone and several other media every day.

And add to this all the discussion we are having through face-to-face interaction.

The volume of discussion per individual in one week is greater than the total discussion someone living in pre-industrial society would have in his entire life.

There is too much discussion in modern society.
Discussion is not solving our problems – discussion itself has become a problem – a gigantic problem.


A society that does mental work will discuss itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will argue itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will debate itself to destruction [extinction]


A society that does mental work can never stop discussions / debates / arguments – it is impossible. It will discuss / debate / argue till the last moment of it’s existence.

Discussions / Debates / Arguments – these are creations of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.

Discussions / Debates / Arguments – these are diseases of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.


Discussions / debates / arguments can end only in agriculture-based societies that do physical work.

We cannot do physical-work and mental-work simultaneously.

There is an inverse relationship between physical-work and mental-work.
If one is high [more] the other has got to be low [less]

If we want to do physical work we have to reduce mental activity by the same proportion.
If we want to do mental work we have to reduce physical activity by the same proportion.

There is very little discussion / debate / argument in societies that do physical work - ie, agriculture-based societies - And this is the reason why they are millions of times saner than industrial societies.




Change is an inherent feature of mental work.

Since change is an inherent feature of mental work - a society that does mental work can never be at peace with itself – it is impossible.

A society that does mental work will always be restless.

Only those societies that do physical work [agriculture and related activities] can find contentment and peace.



As long as cities exist we can neither save the environment nor the mind.

To save the [ remaining ] environment from destruction man will have to
return back to physical work [ smaller communities ].

To save the mind from mental diseases man will have to return back to physical work [ smaller communities ].



Criminality and Abnormality.

Industrial Society has collectively killed billions of Animals and Trees [ Remember - plant and animal species developed over a period of millions ofyears]

It has also killed most of Water and Air [ Please note - polluting Water and Air is equivalent to killing Water and Air ]

The soil was not fertile when the earth was created. It became fertile - very slowly - over a period of millions of years. And look what man has done - He has covered millions and millions of hectares of land with cement and concrete. All the land that has been covered with cement and concrete has been killed.

Man has stockpiled thousands of tonnes of highly radioactive nuclear material and nuclear waste which is going to remain highly radioactive and carcinogenic for the next thousands of years - and which has already leaked into the environment hundreds of times.

There is an arsenal of 50,000 nuclear missiles that can destroy the planet several times over.

What could be more criminal than this.
What could be more abnormal than this.

Lawyers and Judges are trying to catch a few criminals.
They don’t realize the entire Industrial Society is criminal.

Psychologists and Psychiatrists are trying to classify a few people as abnormal.
They don’t realize the entire Industrial Society is abnormal.


The claim of "science and technology" of curing cancer is a joke. "Science and Technology" can never cure cancer - it is impossible. "Science and Technology" is the cause of cancer. Most of cancer is caused by toxic chemicals - carcinogens. Industrial Society has flooded the ecosystems with toxic chemicals. Most of the Farm Land has been poisoned with pesticides due to Industrial Agriculture. The Land - The Air - The Water - the entire food chain is contaminated with thousands of man-made toxic chemicals which did not exist before industrialiation. There are hundreds of man-made, toxic chemicals in the blood, bones and tissue of humans. There are toxic, man-made chemicals in the placenta of new born babies. Industrial Society is causing millions of cancer every year. Out of these millions of cases, "science and technology" is able to treat a small percentage - a few thousand cases - through surgery, radiation and chemotherapy etc...And these treatments can hardly be called real treatments because the toxic chemicals which are the root cause of cancer still exist in the environment. This is also the reason why there is a high rate of relapse/ recurrence after cancer treatment. An Industrial Society can never prevent high incidence of cancer, because it is flooding the environment with chemicals all the time.


Industrial Society is collectively making millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives [of all kinds] every year – and then it wonders why there is so much violence in this world.

Big Mystery.

If you make millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives on earth they are going to be used on earth – they are not going to be used on Mars.


The entire Industrial Society is a terrorist.
The Military-Industrial-Complex is the real terrorist.
Science and Technology is the terrorist.



Make things
Buy things
Sell things

This is not the purpose of life.

Destroy Shopping Culture.

No one deserves more.
Everyone deserves less.
Life can sustain on earth only when everyone has less.




There was a time when Man knew nothing about the number of species and millions of species existed.
Today Man knows the names of millions of species and nothing is left of the species.



It took millions of years for millions of species to slowly come into existence on earth - and man has decimated all other species.

After destroying millions of highly-developed species on earth Man is today searching for a few molecules of life in outer-space.

If a few microbes, a few molecules of methane / water are found on Mars - it becomes the newspaper headline.

They call it progress.



The following is about to come true.

Nature can exist

(1) before man.
(2) after man.
(3) not with man.



Destruction of environment can be divided into two parts - destruction of environment for producing food - and destruction of environment for making thousands of consumer goods. In pre-Industrial Society people destroyed environment primarily for food. In Industrial Society people are destroying environment for food and consumer goods. If we want to save environment we will have to bring down the second to the minimum level by not making all unnecessary consumer goods.

Environment can be saved only if we stop production of most [ more than 99% ] of the consumer goods we are making today.

Environment cannot be saved by recycling.

The attempt of an industrial society to save the environment by recycling is like shooting someone 10,000 times and then trying to save him by taking out one bullet.



Time is running out for this planet.



Regarding Industrialization there is an important point to be noted. Modern Industrial Society has existed for 100 years - 200 years - 300 years. When we compare this period with the total duration for which human society has existed on earth this period is so short - so small that it almost does'nt exist. It is almost zero.

Humans have spent more than 99% of their time on earth in non-industrial societies.

Non-industrial societies have sustained on earth for thousands of years.
Industrial society has destroyed all ecosystems within 200 - 250 years.

Material things don't bring peace and happiness. Today billions of people have got things which even Kings did not have in the past. Car, computer, television, fridge, telephone - no King ever had these things. But people are still restless and unhappy.

Industrial Society is consuming psychiatric drugs/ sleeping pills by tonnes and tonnes.

A very large percentage of the population is surviving on precription drugs, illegal drugs, alcohol and cigarettes.

One-third of the population has become fat like elephants.

People talk about increase in lifespan. What is the use of increased lifespan if people have to resort to Drugs, Alcohol and Cigarettes to pull through life. And just wait a few more years - the average lifespan will soon become zero - human life will cease to exist on earth.

Consumerist-Lifestyle is just not sustainable. If we do not immediately return to living a very simple and frugal life then very soon there will be no human life on earth. We would need several planets[earths] to sustain the present lifestyle.


The Military-Industrial Complex is all set to destroy whatever life and environment that remains on earth. There is a reason why the two World Wars happened in the recent past and not 1000 years ago.

It was not possible to have world wars 1000 years ago. World Wars became possible only when Science and Technology developed aeroplanes, ships and other carriers which could transport millions of troops and millions of tonnes of weapons[once again a creation of science and technology] from one corner of the globe to another.

And today one does'nt even need all these to fight a war. One just needs to move finger-tips to launch missiles that can destroy the planet several times over.

Right at this moment there are several countries fighting wars with one another. There is internal war going on in almost half of the the countries of the world. All these wars are being fuelled and sustained by billions of tonnes of weapons produced by the Military-Industrial Complex every year.

And it is going to get worse and worse every day.

If you kill one person they call it murder.
If you kill a few hundred they call it terrorism.
If you kill a few million they call it war.

Science and Technology has made this world [millions of times] more violent and unsafe than before.

Science and Technology has produced billions of tonnes of weapons and explosives - chemical, biological and nuclear weapons - millions of tonnes of Radioactive material [ which will soon be used to make dirty radioactive bombs - which are going to contaminate the environment for hundreds and thousands of years]. Science and Technology is the real terrorist.


Governments and Law Enforcement Agencies have labelled a few Environmentalists as EcoTerrorists.

What are the charges against Environmental Activists? - Destruction of property? - endangering human life?

The Military Industrial Complex is doing much more damage to property - it is going around carpet bombing entire countries - flattening entire countries. The Military Industrial Complex is endangering much more human life - it is actually killing - killing millions in War/ Violence - directly or indirectly.

Who is the real Terrorist? - Environmentalists or Industrial Society?

The human race has been destroying/ killing animals, trees, air, water, land and people from the very beginning of civilization. Science and Technology has increased this destructive capacity millions of times.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is using hundreds/ thousands of consumer goods.

Every consumer good is made by killing animals, trees, air, water and land - directly or indirectly. [ more killing of nature takes place when consumer goods are used and discarded]

The per capita killing of animals, trees, air, water and land in Industrial Society is hundreds of times/ thousands of times greater than that of pre-industrial society.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer - serial killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Those who produce consumer goods are killers.
Those who sell consumer goods are killers.
Those who buy consumer goods are killers.



Before Industrialization humans killed Environment primarily for Food, Clothing & Shelter. After industrialization humans are killing environment for Food, Clothing & Shelter plus [thousands of unnecessary]Consumer Goods.

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things[Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things[Consumer Goods].

The Military Industrial Complex has killed millions of people in War/ Violence. It has decimated all plant and animal species. It has destroyed all ecosystems. It has polluted and poisioned the Sky, Land and Oceans. It has raped and plundered "Mother Earth" in the name of Progress and Development.

The crimes of "Military Industrial Complex"are millions of times greater than the crimes of Environmentalists.

Comparing the crimes of Environmentalists with the crimes of "Military Industrial Complex" is like comparing the Lamp with the Sun.

The entire Industrial Society is a Terrorist.
Science and Technology is the Terrorist.
Military Industrial Complex is the Terrorist.
Culture of Consumerism - culture of making, buying and selling is the Terrorist. Consumerism kills ecosystems - Consumerism is the biggest act of violence against nature.




Think Positive.

Psychologists say -- Think Positive.
Politicians say – Think Positive.
Economists say – Think Positive.
Scientists say – Think Positive.
Everyone says – Think Positive.

Arctic ice is melting – Glaciers are melting – Rivers are drying up.
Think Positive.

Fish population in Oceans is down to 1/3 of what it was 100 years ago.
Think Positive.

Pollution levels are going sky-high and valley-deep.
Think Positive.

There used to be millions of members in most species of Animals and Birds. Now they are down to thousands and hundreds.
Think Positive.

Weather is getting more and more irregular and unpredictable.
Think Positive.

Metal everywhere - Concrete everywhere - Plastic everywhere.
Think Positive.

All local cultures have been destroyed in the name of consumerism and globalization.
Think Positive.

Thinking positive is the height of insanity.
Thinking positive is the height of abnormality.

This is a world that has become completely incapable of feeling Pain, Compassion, Remorse and Guilt.
The planet is getting destroyed moment by moment – and people are thinking positive.


Very soon there will be 1 Animal and 1 Tree left in this world – and people will still be thinking positive.

They will be holding Seminars, Conferences and Global-Summits to save the Environment.




There is an important point which the human-species needs to understand. People think they can save the Environment by doing something.

We can never save the environment by doing something.

It is overactivity that has destroyed environment in the first place.

Human-species is the only one out of millions of species that has indulged in overactivity on this planet [ And for this very reason the human speciesis going to exist on earth for the least amount of time]

And it is not Mild Overactivity – It is Excessive Overactivity – Exponential Overactivity.

We cannot save the environment by doing something.

We can only save it by doing less of what we have been doing - much less of what we have been doing.

If we want to save environment we will have to reduce human activity [overactivity] by 99%.



A person is being stabbed repeatedly at regular intervals - every hour.

Some people are trying to save the victim.

The sane way to save is - you first stop the attack – you prevent the attack.

What these insane people do - they allow the attack to be continued. They don’t stop it -- they don’t prevent it.

Instead, what they do - They say we are going to save the victim by using technology - the best technology - the best medical care.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.


They give the victim the best technology - the best medical care.
In the meantime the stabbing continues – every hour – even while the best medical care is being given.

One can imagine the fate of the victim.


Ecosystems are getting destroyed due to production of consumer goods.

Every consumer good is made by killing animals, trees, air, water and land - directly or indirectly. [ more killing of nature takes place when consumer goods are used and discarded]

Industrial society is destroying necessary things - animals, trees, air, water and land for making unnecessary things - consumer goods.

The sane way of saving ecosystems is - you stop production of consumer goods - you reduce production of consumer goods to the minimum level.

But the insane Industrial Society continues producing consumer goods [ in fact production is being increased every day]

The insane response of Industrial Society is - We will save the environment with technology - the best technology.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.


In the meantime production of consumer goods continues - 3 billion people living in cities are continuously engaged in - making , buying and selling of consumer goods - killing the ecosystems moment by moment.

One can imagine the fate of environment.

Height of Insanity.......Height of Abnormality.

Destroy consumerism..... before it is too late.




The Illogical Logic of Man.

A few birds have got infected with bird-flu and Man has started killing millions of birds.
They say birds are a threat to humans.

Sometime ago there was Mad Cow disease and Man started killing hundreds of thousands of cows.
They said cows are a threat to humans.


Ever since Man came into existence - millions of humans with infectious diseases have transferred such diseases to millions of other people - and will continue to infect millions more in future.
Such people are a threat to rest of the people.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all infected people.

It is Man who has killed millions of people in Wars and other forms of Violence – and can kill millions more any time in future.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all people.


It is the human species which is the greatest threat to humans and all other life on this planet - In fact the human species is the only species which is a threat to all life on Earth.

Man has decimated all Animal and Plant species – polluted the Sky and Oceans - and poisioned every square inch of earth.

In a mere 200 - 300 years Industrial Society has destroyed all that Nature laboriously created over a period of millions of years.


Humans pose the greatest threat to other humans.
Humans pose the greatest threat to all other life on earth.

The so-called Rational and Civilized Man should follow the same logic here - and destroy the entire human race.

Please note :

If you indulge in Factory Farming – If you torture the birds – confine millions of them in prison like conditions – depriving them of Sunlight and the freedom to walk and fly – you are creating an environment for the spread of virus and disease.



Lifestyle of Mass Destruction.

Destruction is an inherent feature of Development.

Progress = Destruction of Nature.
Development = Destruction of Nature.

We can have Sustainable Lifestyle.
We cannot have Sustainable Development.

Development can never be sustainable.
Sustainability and Development cannot exist together.

Development and Sustainability are opposites.
Development and Sustainability are contradictory.

Sustainable Living is associated with consuming less – being satisfied with a simple and frugal life.
Development is associated with never ending desires – always wanting more.

Sustainable lifestyle requires Constancy.
Sustainable lifestyle requires Sameness.
Sustainable lifestyle requires Repetition.

Development is associated with Change.
Development is associated with New.
Development is associated with Transience.

Industrial Societies can never be sustainable – When you make thousands of consumer goods you kill Nature - you kill Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land.

"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"
These are figures of "Ecocide".
These are figures of "crimes against Nature".
These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems".
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".


A Society that does mental work [city based] can never be sustainable - it will keep on making consumer goods - destroying the environment moment by moment.

Only agriculture-based societies that do physical work can be sustainable.

The term Sustainable Development is like the terms

Stationary Walk.
Silent Talk.
Wakeful Sleep.
Dark Sun
Gentle Torture.
Dry Rain.
Peaceful War.

Infinite growth and development on a tiny planet that is just 40,000 km in circumference? - Industrial Society is insane.



Man can repair and restore things that have been made by man himself. Car, Computer, Aeroplane, Rocket - if anything goes wrong with these things man can repair and restore.

Man cannot repair and restore Nature/ Environment - because man did not make Nature/ Environment. Once a Forest is destroyed - it is gone for millions of years. One cannot create a Forest in 5 or 50 years - it takes millions of years to make a forest - containing millions of species of animals, insects, birds, plants and trees. Man can create a plantation in 5 or 50 years - not a forest.

The only way to save Environment is by not destroying it - leave it alone - leave it undisturbed. If you destroy Environment you cannot repair and restore it.

No Multi National Company can manufacture the Amazon Rainforests.
No MNC can manufacture Rivers and Oceans.
No MNC can manufacture Mountains and Deserts.
No MNC can manufacture milions of species and fertile soil.
No MNC can manufacture the Sun.

The glaciers have melted. Arctic Ice has melted. Man can use all his Technology - all the Refrigeration and AirConditioning Technology but he will not be able to recreate the glaciers and Arctic Ice.

Many species of wild animals used to have hundreds of thousands/ millions of members. Now it is down to a few hundred/ a few thousand. Which MNC is going to restore the animal population to its original level?

The Oceans have almost been emptied of all large Fish. Which MNC is going to bring the Fish back in the Ocean?

Man has hunted down several species to extinction after Industrial Revolution. Which MNC is going to make them reappear?



There was a time when Man used to say –

I work in order to feed my family.
I work in order to put Food on the Table.

Today man is putting a lot more than Food on the Table.

Cars, Computers, ipods, Aeroplanes, 200 TV Channels, Luxury Yatchs, Caribbean Vacations, Palatial Homes, Video Phones, Designer Clothes, Designer Drugs, Cosmetic Surgery …………… The list is endless.


Man is putting thousands of consumer goods and services on the Table.
There is too much weight on the Table.
And the Table has begun to creak.


The more you put on your table the more you take out from the mouths of Animals and Birds.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Animals and Trees.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Water, Air and Land.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Mountains and Valleys.

The more you put on your table the more you kill the Sky and Oceans - the Rivers and Lakes.


There are so many things on the Table that one can barely see the Food.

We need just a few things to live.
And we are making thousands of things.

Billions of people are engaged in making, buying and selling of thousands of consumer goods.

Destroy Shopping Culture.

Go back to Simple Living.
Go back to putting just Food on the Table.



sushil_yadav

[I want to inform the Moderators of "BrainMeta Forums" that I have also posted my article in other Forums and Blogs relevant to the article/ related to keywords in the article]

[I am seeking help from volunteers in spreading this message far and wide]
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cerebral
post Jun 19, 2006, 09:07 PM
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If you don't like civilization, then go back to the jungle or forest
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 07:32 AM
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The "love it or leave it" argument expressed in cerebral's post is childish and spurious. It adds nothing to the dialogue, it discourages dialogue.

Furthermore, his comment is fallacious because it raises a straw man by speaking of civilization in general. The OP is not making an argument against civilization, he is making an argument against industrialization. Agrarian civilization revolving around physical rather than mental labor is accepted.

If cerebral cannot intelligently and respecfully engage in discussion concerning possible downfalls of the choices are society has made, perhaps he is not ready for adult conversation.
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cerebral
post Jun 20, 2006, 09:29 AM
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it's survival of the fittest. If you are not fit, well um, draw your own conclusions. Faster society based on mental work does not imply emotions cease or that the planet dies but quite the contrary. Just because you like hugging trees or are incapable of thriving in today's environment doesn't mean you need to impose that weakness on everyone else. Why would people want to start going backwards like you suggest. You falsely claim that people become incapable of experiencing/ tolerating gaps and a lot of other nonsense but what you really mean is that you are simply incapable of adapting and thriving in today's environment, and so you're afflicted with a classic case of Sour Grapes. Life is about moving forwards, overcoming, evolving. Have you forgotten that or just never learned it?
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Lindsay
post Jun 20, 2006, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 20, 07:32 AM) *

The "love it or leave it" argument expressed in cerebral's post is childish and spurious. It adds nothing to the dialogue, it discourages dialogue...
Guest, having made this important point, why don't we ask cerebral: What is that motivates you to make your remark?

I would also like ask SY: How does cerebral's remark make you feel? Furthermore, do you really intend readers to take your remark literally?

BTW, in this section, on politics, I intend to start a thread having to do with economics. After all, what is politics without economics?--the rules of the house. No doubt it will be a controversial topic. Watch for it, please.
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 01:47 PM
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"You have a dimension too many. Whoever wants to live and enjoy his life today must not be like you or me.
Whoever wants music instead of noise, joy instead of pleasure, soul instead of gold, creative work instead of business, passion instead of foolery,
finds no home in this trivial world of ours."

Hermann Hesse, Steppenwolf

"Man is a mistake. He must go. There are the trees and the grass and the birds. I much prefer to think of the lark rising up in the morning upon a humanless world."

D.H. Lawrence, Women in Love

"I hope and believe that the whole civilized world will be wiped out in the next hundred years or so.
I believe that man can exist, and in an infinitely better, larger way, without "civilization":

Henry Miller, The Cosmological Eye


According to Alvin Toffler, we are going through an evolutionary bifurcational shift from the industrial second-wave culture/civilization to the third-wave culture/civilization,
the so-called "Information Age". Many things are changing, and we´ll witness many more and faster changes in the near future. What we need is a radical change in our consciousness, attitudes, and cosmovision.
In fact, many people are aware today that no amount of effort based on the old paradigm is going to solve the problems that we are facing.



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rhymer
post Jun 20, 2006, 02:33 PM
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Hello Sushil_Yadav, and welcome to BrainMeta!

I agree with some of the points you make, but you need to strengthen your arguments on the probable destructive end result of mans actions.

I have often found that it is actions or statements which create the emotion (ie., a gap).

The pace has been speeding up throughout my lifetime of 60 years. This is not to say that people are happier. I suspect that most workers today are less happy than were their forefathers, but I cannot prove it.

Psychological problems do seem to be increasing in the general population, but is this due to better diagnosis, or more thinkers, or bigger problems or diet, perhaps as well as the increased pace?

Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking IS capable of destroying the planet.
This means that man must become even more aware and proactive in his responsibility to future generations rather than just stopping. We need to balance advancement (however that may be defined) against the risk of causing retardation of future livelihoods.

As the population increases, I suspect that it is the apparent anonymity perceived by individuals that causes most problems (apart from bottleneck problems). Only education and better policing will temper this (the Big Brother scenario will grow becasue of this effect).
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 04:32 PM
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Native American Wisdom
Awakening personal and global consciousness

http://www.sapphyr.net/natam/index.htm
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cerebral
post Jun 20, 2006, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 20, 05:32 PM) *
Native American Wisdom
Awakening personal and global consciousness

http://www.sapphyr.net/natam/index.htm

It's a shame that Native Americans have degenerated to running casinos and other gambling operations and have lost touch with their past.

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post Jun 20, 2006, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE(cerebral @ Jun 20, 09:29 AM) *

it's survival of the fittest . . . Why would people want to start going backwards like you suggest . . . Life is about moving forwards, overcoming, evolving.


(I am the guest who made the second post in the thread.)

Its interesting that you mention survival, since survival is exactly what is at stake. We are damaging ourselves, and we are damaging an environment. In many ways we are behaving similar to cancerous cells, and I believe we are capable of much more noble behavior. We will fail at survival if we continue destroying the very ecosystems we depend on. If you do not recognize the damage we are causing, then you have your head in the sand like so many proverbial ostriches.

Life may be about moving forward, overcoming, and evolving as you say. But if we fail at survival we fail at evolution and cease moving forward. If cannot recognize your mistake and rectify them you enslave yourself to your own short-sightedness. It is short-sighted to continue barrelling head-long into destruction, when a humble assessment of your failures and a few steps backwards allow you to continue then moving onwards.

Cerebral, are you so enchanted with bread and circuses that it does not concern you the damage we are doing, or do you believe we are doing so little damage that it doesn't matter? Or do you believe that it is in our survival interest to destroy our environment in name of personal comfort with no concern for future generations. If you have some other position concerning environmentalism I welcome you to lay it out for us.

Please, cerebral, do not take this as a personal attack. I, like many others, are very concerned about the state of our planet right now and if taking a step back into agrarian systems is the answer to finding balance with the planet, then some of us may be willing to take that step back.
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cerebral
post Jun 20, 2006, 06:36 PM
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Guest, you distinguish humans from Nature (or the environment), but I say such distinctions are false. We are the universe becoming more and more aware of itself, becoming more and more consciously empowered. We, as part of Nature, feed off of Nature. We and Nature are One. The secret of the universe is symbolized by the snake biting its tail. I say, smile at the gaping jaws of Life/Death and bare some teeth yourself. Else you are not fit for life and are not a full participant of Nature.
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE(cerebral @ Jun 20, 06:36 PM) *

Guest, you distinguish humans from Nature (or the environment), but I say such distinctions are false.


Cerebral, I am discouraged that you have chosen to respond this way. It is an evasion of a clear and precise question. I only distinguish humans from nature in the way that a doctor distinguishes the heart from the rest of the body. Yes, human beings are part of nature, not seperate from it, but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss the relation between humans and other elements of nature.

You will not that I did not say humans vs nature, I said humans vs ecosystems and environment. It is as valid to discuss the relation between humans and other elements of nature as it is valid to discuss an unhealthy organ in the body.

Both perspectives are valid. The perspective of unity is valid, and the perspective of seperation is valid.

Cerebral, I would like to offer you another chance to delineate your position concerning environmentalism. Which of the following options do you agree with?

(A) Industrialization has had no impact on earth ecosystems.

(cool.gif Industrialization has had impact on earth ecosystems, but that impact is not sufficient enough to be of concern.

© Industrialization has had impact on earth ecosystems, to the degree that limitations should be placed on industrialization.

(D) Industrialization has had impact on earth ecosystems, to the degree that it should abolished and human society should return to agrarianism.
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 07:10 PM
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For some reason the B option and C option came out strangely, something to do with the way this board works? sad.gif
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kortikal
post Jun 20, 2006, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 20, 08:10 PM) *

For some reason the B option and C option came out strangely, something to do with the way this board works? sad.gif


it's cause you had smileys enabled in your post
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post Jun 20, 2006, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE(kortikal @ Jun 20, 07:21 PM) *

it's cause you had smileys enabled in your post


Thank you, kortikal.

I'd like to invite you to weigh in on the subject at hand?
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cerebral
post Jun 20, 2006, 07:33 PM
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We need to start colonizing other planets anyway. If we confine ourselves to earth and its ecosystems, then we run the risk of catastrophe and extinction just like the dinosaurs. I do not believe it likely that we will destroy our ecosystems any time soon. Human science and technology progress has priority over all else, even if it means some ecosystems bear some burden. You can preach all you want about saving the ecosystems, but for me and others like me there are bigger fish to fry. You can call us cancerous. Yeah we are from one perspective. We are the universe unfolding. Nothing can stop that. All your pleas to halt progress will come to naught. Don't believe me? It's happening right now.
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kortikal
post Jun 20, 2006, 07:36 PM
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I don't think you'd like what I'd say if I chimed in on this subject cool.gif I believe in conserving resources and being ecosystem friendly to some extent but enjoy what industrialization offers.
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post Jun 20, 2006, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE(cerebral @ Jun 20, 07:33 PM) *

We need to start colonizing other planets anyway. If we confine ourselves to earth and its ecosystems, then we run the risk of catastrophe and extinction just like the dinosaurs. I do not believe it likely that we will destroy our ecosystems any time soon. Human science and technology progress has priority over all else, even if it means some ecosystems bear some burden. You can preach all you want about saving the ecosystems, but for me and others like me there are bigger fish to fry. You can call us cancerous. Yeah we are from one perspective. We are the universe unfolding. Nothing can stop that. All your pleas to halt progress will come to naught. Don't believe me? It's happening right now.



I would like to humbly thank you for attending the subject.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should colonize other planets.

If we can find a way to develop technology that far without destroying this planet's ability to support life, then I think that would be the best path to take. Right now, however, we are doing next to nothing to work towards this goal. Our space programs are woefully underfunded, especially in comparison to our war budgets. This is extremely discouraging to me, as I'm sure it is to you if you truely feel that space colonization is a worthy goal.

We clearly are having severe impacts on ecosystems and show absolutely no indications of slowing the destruction. I'm glad to see that you recognize the validity of the analogy of cancerous behavior. I would like to state that it is just an analogy. I don't think we are literally, or necessarily a cancer of the planet.

I believe that technology can be developed in such away as to be beneficial to planet insofar as it serves conservation, planetary defense, and space migration. In order for technology to be developed in such a way, we need to have a very firm understanding of the sacrifice that the planet makes for every bit of plastic, every chemical, every element of technology. Our current behavior is extremely wasteful.

I do believe you that progress is inevitable. I do not think that we would be able to turn around and return to agrarianism, as attractive as that option may be to me. I think we are living in a make-it-or-break-it period in human history. We will either develop technolgy responsibly, or perish. Sometimes I feel more optimistic about our chances than others.

What the OP offers us that is truly valuable is the point that the shift from agrarianism to industrialization marks the beginning of the make-it-or-break-it period. He shows us the consequences of industrialization and how it is damaging us as much as it is damaging our environment. Where he falls short is offering a blue-print for responsible industrialization that results in technology and culture revolving around conservation, planetary defense, and space migration. If he is right in thinking that there is no such thing as responsible industrialization, well, we're F**KING screwed.
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE(kortikal @ Jun 20, 07:36 PM) *

I don't think you'd like what I'd say if I chimed in on this subject cool.gif I believe in conserving resources and being ecosystem friendly to some extent but enjoy what industrialization offers.


Me too.
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 08:09 PM
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Lindsay, you seem to have enough interest in the subject to prod cerebral and to read the updates to the thread. Care to reveal your opinions?
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE(rhymer @ Jun 20, 02:33 PM) *

Psychological problems do seem to be increasing in the general population, but is this due to better diagnosis, or more thinkers, or bigger problems or diet, perhaps as well as the increased pace?


We do indeed have a big problem with our diets, and I don't think our increasing psychological problems can be explaned away by better diagnosis. Our diet and lifestyle choices are having a huge problematic impact on our mental and physical health, which can't help but have a negative effect on our choices and judgement. What do you think?
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Rick
post Jun 21, 2006, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE(cerebral @ Jun 20, 08:33 PM) *

We need to start colonizing other planets anyway. If we confine ourselves to earth and its ecosystems, then we run the risk of catastrophe and extinction ...

Yes indeed! A catastrophe is possible and diversity is the only answer to ensure the survival of life in the universe. Space colonies in the asteroids are probably the easiest way to survive off Earth, and will probably come before viable colonies on the Moon and Mars.

Global warming is a fact and will not be reversed in the forseeable future. We (and all life) will have to adapt. There may be loss of some species and the creation of new species due to the development of new niches. The amount of CO2 we can put in the air is limited, as there is only so much petroleum and coal in the ground. We have already peaked oil production, so energy use will become more efficient. We haven't any choice in that regard.

A sustainable advanced civilization is possible with reduced fossil fuel consumption, but it will probably require extensive use of nuclear power. Effective government can regulate nuclear power satisfactorily for safety and pollution control, but it requires the political will that's not available right now. How it all unfolds should prove to be very interesting.
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post Jun 21, 2006, 05:31 PM
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"One can only go forward by going backward and then sideways and then up and then down.
There is no progress: there is perpetual movement, displacement, which is circular, spiral, endless...

Man is somehow on the periphery, whirling like a whirligig, going faster and faster, blinder and blinder...

Ever since the dawn of history -- all through the great civilizations, that is to say -- we have been living like lice. Once every thousand years or so a man arises who is not a louse...

For two thousand years we have been living in the mold..."

Henry Miller, The Cosmological Eye

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lucid_dream
post Jun 21, 2006, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 21, 06:31 PM) *
There is no progress: there is perpetual movement, displacement, which is circular, spiral, endless...


Sheer nonsense
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Guest
post Jun 22, 2006, 05:24 PM
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The idea of progress belongs historically to the European tradition and derives from two sources: one is the classical conception of history as an endless series of cycles,
the other is the Hebraic-Christian doctrine of messianic intervention and salvation.
In Greek mythology the reign of Cronus was regarded as the golden age when men lived like gods free from toil and grief.
The present appeared to be a period of degeneration, and improvement or progress could be conceived only in terms of regeneration -- a return to the golden age.
Later on, Greeks continued looking forward to the time when great lawgivers would appear and give them better laws.
"Until philosophers become kings, cities will not cease from ill," said Plato.
Most classical writers regarded human history as an endless series of cycles, a continual repetition of recovery and degeneration.
In the Universe of the omniscient Intelligence and the perpetual flux of Cosmic energy, what is our idea of progress !?
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lucid_dream
post Jun 22, 2006, 05:47 PM
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Definitions of progress on the Web:

* advancement: gradual improvement or growth or development; "advancement of knowledge"; "great progress in the arts"
* develop in a positive way; "He progressed well in school"; "My plants are coming along"; "Plans are shaping up"
* the act of moving forward toward a goal
* advance: move forward, also in the metaphorical sense; "Time marches on"
* a movement forward; "he listened for the progress of the troops"
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post Jun 22, 2006, 06:26 PM
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In the Universe, the things as well as the ideas of things arise out of temporary conditions and are transformed with the modification of these conditions ...
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lucid_dream
post Jun 22, 2006, 08:05 PM
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so are the laws of nature also temporary conditions, according to your opinion? Do you have any evidence against various notions of progress besides your observation that many, but not all, processes are cyclical?
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post Jun 23, 2006, 06:17 AM
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Lucid dream,
You misread what I say.
The cyclical repetition is the rhythm of nature, of the Cosmos -- the ancient knowledge and understanding expressed by Henry Miller.
Many of us still have a linear concept of time: past-present-future ( this is a temporary concept or opinion ).
Yet, if we observe nature we can see that it works through endless cycles or continual repetitions: spring-summer-fall-winter-spring-summer-fall-winter ...
This is the law of rhythm.
The perpetual birth, death and rebirth of Cosmos -- the sacred science of creation, the cult of creation, the death and the resurrection of the God, of Osiris ... To celebrate and to re-enact it was fundamental, in all ancient cultures, for the regeneration of the world.

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post Jun 26, 2006, 11:34 AM
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Dear Guest & lucid_dream:

The only form of progress that is essentially relevant to this discussion and necessary to show the veracity of is technological progress. It is self-evident that our technological capabilities are advancing and improving, and the attempt to deny that on the grounds of some kind of metaphysical cyclicalism misses the point.

It may be that there is a cycle of technological rise and fall on the earth over time from culture to culture. There is indeed at least some measure of ebb and flow, the loss of knowledge in the burning of Alexandria and in the Dark Ages is proof of low points and it may be entertained that there are high points in turn.

Some radical scholars believe that the Indian Vedas combined with physical observations of ancient post-nuclear deserts of glass discovered beneath conventional desert sand are proof that ancient Earth cultures posessed nuclear capabilities. I mention this only as an interesting aside, I don't intend to argue for or against this or consider it necessary to do so within the scope of this discussion.

Technological progress being a given, even if that progress is repeated cyclically through a rise of technology peaking at nuclear capability resulting in comprehensive destruction and return to the beginning of the cycle. It may be that this cycle is simply the result of the difficulties of surviving the period beginning with nuclear capability and culminating in space migration, as Carl Sagan expounded. If so, the there is a meta-progress overarching a series of cyclical progressions eventually resulting in either a successful planetary-culture-birth or ecosystem failure.

Having shown this, I would like to invite the Guest to defend the statement that there is no progress, and extrapolate how the assertion that progress is an idea historically belonging to the European tradition is at all relevant to the OP's article or the discussion thereof.

~C
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