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> Why are Buddhists so Lazy?, Buddhists have contributed nothing significant to society
lucid_dream
post May 21, 2006, 11:08 AM
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Considering the contributions from various individuals throughout history, I am struck by the fact that, perhaps excluding Siddhartha Gautama, I cannot find any significant contributions to society from Buddhists. Why is that? Is it because Buddhism preaches laziness and detachment as a way of life? If it was just the preaching of detachment that is at issue, then why doesn't Hinduism or related religions also suffer from this problem?

In any event, my contention remains that: Buddhists have contributed nothing significant to society.

This fact alone should make one very wary of the tenets of Buddhism in general, lest we fall prey to sloth. If anyone can think of any significant contributions to society from Buddhists, besides Siddhartha, let's hear it.


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maximus242
post May 21, 2006, 11:12 AM
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hmm, I generally have more respect for buddhism than most other religions, mainly the ideals that the first buddah preached are not to blindly follow the teachings. He asks that people subject what is taught to their own opinions and make their own decisions about it instead of just being told what to think. Also isnt the Dali Lama a buddhist? I mean besides the whole reincarnation thing, they seem to generally try to promote world peace and passive negotiations..
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lucid_dream
post May 21, 2006, 11:13 AM
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Ok, the Dali Lama is a Buddhist who may or may not have made significant contributions to society. Besides writing some books, and being a political hot potato, what else has he done?


Btw, I am not trying to put Buddhism in a bad light. I am just curious what particular Buddhists have actually contributed to society.
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maximus242
post May 21, 2006, 11:19 AM
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Mostly the peace thing I suppose, they are against war and what not. Also I think they do a lot of helping world wide, with giving people refuge in their monasataries and trying to bring them to peace. The thing I like about Buddhism is it isnt like most religions, it doesnt have a god, it believes people deserve to be treated equally and they preach enlightenment instead of being another sheep under a god. (not that buddhists havent been sheep, they just dont preach being sheepies lol) Anyways the two major things I like, that they preach enlightenment instead of being a god fearing fool and they ask you to subject their teachings to your own opinions. If Buddhism does nothing else for society at least it gets people away from Christianity? lol
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lucid_dream
post May 21, 2006, 11:55 AM
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My own thoughts are that Buddhism is incomplete. It is a tool. "Buddhists" are people who erroneously accept Buddhism as complete truth and fail to see it for the tool that it is. It is but a piece in a bigger puzzle.

I encourage the wise to put the sword to Buddhism. Extract and use the tool that Buddhism is, but destroy all the useless fluff, dogma, and lies.
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maximus242
post May 21, 2006, 11:57 AM
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Indeed, their is fluff and whatnot, certainly useful aspects of buddhism exist, but not all of them. It is about enlightenment not following, so I agree, use what you can to raise your own conciousness and leave the rest behind.
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post May 21, 2006, 12:47 PM
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What are the most significant contributions to society ?
Don´t you think that the answer to this significant question depends on our values and state of consciousness ?
Which are the values of the western society or civilization ?
Certainly, self-realization, enlightenment, buddhahood, wisdom, joy, unity of consciousness, are not among our highest values.

A professor of philosophy went to the Zen master and asked him about God, meditation, meaning of life, and other things. The master listened silently and then said, "You look tired, you have come from a faraway place. Let me first serve you tea.
Relax ! Who knows...maybe by drinking tea all your questions will be answered."
The professor was eager, impatient ... He started wondering whether his whole journey had been a waste. He thought, "The man seems to be mad. How can my questions about God be answered by drinking tea ?"
But he was tired, and it would be good to have a cup of tea before going back.
The master brought the kettle and started pouring tea into the cup...and continued pouring the tea,although the cup was already full and the tea started overflowing into the saucer.
"Stop! What are you doing !?" shouted the professor.
"That´s exactly the situation you are in," answered the master, "Your mind is so full of questions that even if I answer, there is no space in your head for my answer to go in. Go back, empty your cup; first create some space in you."

The western world has been living in such a hurry and stress that it has missed all the wisdom.
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maximus242
post May 21, 2006, 12:49 PM
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indeed the significance of contribution is reminiscent of our perception on whats significant guest, but thats exactly what Lucid is asking, what do you think the buddhists have contributed?
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Guest
post May 21, 2006, 01:14 PM
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Maximus 242,
Maybe by drinking tea your question will be answered...
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lucid_dream
post May 21, 2006, 01:23 PM
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In other words, the Buddhists sit around doing nothing and contributing nothing to society, and when someone asks them why they contribute nothing, they respond by saying they are "wise".

Effete and delusional is what I call such wisdom.
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Rick
post May 22, 2006, 11:30 AM
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Kung fu?
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Guest
post May 22, 2006, 04:29 PM
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The best contribution to humanity is the Light of Wisdom
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Adrian.
post May 22, 2006, 05:08 PM
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When I read the title of this topic I laughed out loud.
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Meklo
post May 24, 2006, 04:56 AM
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I'll answer your question with another:

How many negative things have non-Buddhists brought into the world, in comparison with how many negative things Buddhists brought?

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Lindsay
post May 24, 2006, 06:19 AM
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QUOTE(Adrian. @ May 22, 05:08 PM) *

When I read the title of this topic I laughed out loud.
Tell us: What kind of laughter was it?
If you meant that the topic is amusing, I don't agree. I find generalizations--dare I say it--offensive!

BTW, would one describe Richard Gere, the movie star, lazy?
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post May 24, 2006, 06:42 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 21, 11:08 AM) *

Considering the contributions from various individuals throughout history, I am struck by the fact that, perhaps excluding Siddhartha Gautama, I cannot find any significant contributions to society from Buddhists. Why is that? Is it because Buddhism preaches laziness and detachment as a way of life? If it was just the preaching of detachment that is at issue, then why doesn't Hinduism or related religions also suffer from this problem?

In any event, my contention remains that: Buddhists have contributed nothing significant to society.

This fact alone should make one very wary of the tenets of Buddhism in general, lest we fall prey to sloth. If anyone can think of any significant contributions to society from Buddhists, besides Siddhartha, let's hear it.

Shinto, the most predominant form of religion in Japan, is an adaptation of Buddism. It would be interesting to find out what that form of ideology has contributed to the world through its followers. Maybe Culture could enlighten us on the subject...
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lucid_dream
post May 24, 2006, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ May 24, 07:42 AM) *
Shinto, the most predominant form of religion in Japan, is an adaptation of Buddism.


Shinto is a native religion of Japan. It is a form of animism and unrelated to Buddhism.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto
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Adrian.
post May 24, 2006, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE
Tell us: What kind of laughter was it?
If you meant that the topic is amusing, I don't agree. I find generalizations--dare I say it--offensive!

BTW, would one describe Richard Geer, the movie star, lazy?


It was a gut laugh caused by the the bold phrasing of the title and subtitle.

I'm not saying generalizations aern't offensive, but if the man has statistical evidence backing him we should at least consider his point, right?

Sure, I'd happily call Richard Gere lazy.
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Joesus
post May 25, 2006, 12:03 AM
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Statistical evidence such as names, history of activity, comparison analysis of human achievement and potential, and a point of reference for the standard of measure for human worthiness. Evidence of whether activity or belief of one or a group of people has an affect on others be it positive, negative or indifferent, long term, short term, isolated, widespread.

Can free will can be compromised or inluenced by a group mentality due to the nature of the group influence or are some people deluded by their own inability to differentiate truth from illusion.
If one doesn't stand for one thing will they just fall for another.. etc. etc.

Those kind of statistics?

By the way, do you know Richard Gere?
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lucid_dream
post May 25, 2006, 12:39 AM
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Joesus, I think the statistics speak for themselves. This is not a question of standards or worthiness, just the simple observation that Buddhists have constributed almost nothing significant to society, and I'm curious why that's the case. Any ideas?
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Plato
post May 25, 2006, 05:35 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 25, 01:39 AM) *

Joesus, I think the statistics speak for themselves. This is not a question of standards or worthiness, just the simple observation that Buddhists have constributed almost nothing significant to society, and I'm curious why that's the case. Any ideas?


Lucid, sometimes the tibetan buddhism needs to put into perspective? It is easy to cut the legs off of any position by refuting it as good scientists do.

But it is this perspective, and the environment that has existed for many a generation, that the mountains and terrain of Tibet, has forced its's society to develope in ways, that the societes of other cultures did not. This did not mean that "developement in consciousness studies" did not occur in those other societes.

So sure, there are contributions from all sides, that might be thought "useless," while the study of consciousness evolved very intricately from teacher to teacher. To cut the legs off of one teacher, did not stop what was progressive in that society? How could it, when it was disemminated amongst the population and hence forth, the "probability outcome," enormous, once others set their minds to it?

While the Dalai Lama exited Tibet, becuase of the CHinese, in absentism, he wrote a democratic constitution that was worthy of any democratic society. He studied this, in context of the current knowledge of societies who matured, and wrote constitutions for it's peoples. Even, when he annouced that he could be replaced, the people did not want to cut off the head? They knew to exit Tibet and live in INdia was the only way, to live in abstentia, while it could still rule it's people.

China has made no headway, even with all it's potential capabilties. Killing off all sectarian teachers of the different monestaries? Like students and their degrees, they had to earn their credentials as they move up in the ranks?

Sometimes the teachers were recognzied in the very early stages of youth, who came to resume the work they were doing.

Life clouds over the reason and developement of youth, to become dispersed in the new ideological formations of a contnued developement and growth of being. That's just the way it is time and time again.

Other Philosophical Incursions?

A Taoist may lie "indifferent," and in all appearances, be somewhat percieved as lazy, yet , it is in the observation mode, that such a equillibrium is struck, that they could move very quickly, while still remaining unattached? You see smile.gif
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post May 25, 2006, 05:53 AM
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Way to go Plato! I love your posts. They are deeper than The Grand Canyon, and it takes me awhile to get the full meaning of them, but they're full of content. By the way, I also like your writting style: Posing propositions with a question mark at the end... Sign of a wise man. Groovy!
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Plato
post May 25, 2006, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ May 25, 06:53 AM) *

Way to go Plato! I love your posts. They are deeper than The Grand Canyon, and it takes me awhile to get the full meaning of them, but they're full of content. By the way, I also like your writting style: Posing propositions with a question mark at the end... Sign of a wise man. Groovy!


thanks

Just like you, or anyone else.


Sometmes without another there to help propel us forward, we have to assess our summations as if in a question form. Sometimes, there is no other there to do this by asking the question, "what next," so we have to do this ourselves.
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Rick
post May 25, 2006, 07:44 AM
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Wait a minute. Kung fu! It's the root of all eastern martial art, leading to Karate and Tai Kwan Do. Think of all the martial arts films we would be missing without the Shao Lin Buddhist Temple. What would Matrix be as a film without the fight scenes?
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Joesus
post May 25, 2006, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 25, 08:39 AM) *

Joesus, I think the statistics speak for themselves. This is not a question of standards or worthiness, just the simple observation that Buddhists have constributed almost nothing significant to society, and I'm curious why that's the case. Any ideas?


Yes statistics speak of a vision from a point of reference. I was responding to Adrians post that suggests you be given a chance to provide statistics so we might go beyond the generalized statement of your personal opinion, based on the observations made from your point of reference, (effects of human actions and beliefs according to your personal observations) which is directed towards societal significance or worth.

Taking a scientific approach might include statistical references to societal contributions of Grandmothers, Teenagers, politicians. Scientists who's contributions to society have resulted in the poisoning of our environment. Long term affects of progress in the name of dissatisfaction as opposed to inner stillness and movement created towards the education and understanding of universal harmony.

You aren't observing the bigger picture, you're only seeking a solution to the negative that you experience, rather than expanding on what is positive in the world.

What you focus on grows. Focus on dissatisfaction and that is the seed that grows. The Buddhists know this which is why they don't choose to be political activists attacking what is wrong with the world but to bring forth what is universal within us so that we may create from a more stable platform than the knowledge or feeling that everything is wrong.

This does not make one slothlike or lazy, it makes one more productive to creating a society that is in harmony with nature rather than one that seeks to dominate or control it with the negative affects that our current scentific and political mindset has created by attacking the needs of humanity based on projections of fear.

Your observations are not based on universal knowledge, they are hypothetical ideas based on your beliefs. You are attempting to gather statistics by seeking confirmation through others who have their own opinions and you hear what you want to hear. This is not science and you haven't provided any rational proof, or experience of having lived with or studied with all Buddhists to form a complete or comprehensive opinion.

Why should this topic be given any attention?
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Lao_Tzu
post May 25, 2006, 09:25 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 21, 11:23 PM) *

In other words, the Buddhists sit around doing nothing and contributing nothing to society, and when someone asks them why they contribute nothing, they respond by saying they are "wise".

This rubbish hardly even merits discussion.

This is such a generalisation as to be very suspicious indeed. Has the writer ever asked a Buddhist "why have you contributed nothing to society?" and received the answer "because I am wise"? This might be subject to a great deal of doubt.

Buddhists are generally (or at least, supposed to be) compassionate, nonviolent, humble, unselfish - which is perhaps more than can be said for any other 'type' of person you might care to designate. The contribution of Buddhists to society is not in the form of grand scientific discoveries, but in the behaviour that manifests from those attributes. This results from the compassionate inclination to assuage the suffering of sentient beings. One can see the Buddhist community as being millions of hands trying to make the lives of humans (and other sentient beings) happier within their own spheres of influence.

QUOTE

I encourage the wise to put the sword to Buddhism.

One might ask lucid_dream, at this juncture: by what capacity of your own do you presume to advise the wise?

QUOTE

Extract and use the tool that Buddhism is, but destroy all the useless fluff, dogma, and lies.

Perhaps you could help us to know what you mean by identifying some of Buddhism's lies. (defn.: statements made by someone who believes or suspects them to be false, in the expectation that the hearers may believe them).
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Lao_Tzu
post May 25, 2006, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 21, 09:13 PM) *

Ok, the Dali Lama is a Buddhist who may or may not have made significant contributions to society. Besides writing some books, and being a political hot potato, what else has he done?

A political hot-potato? Before you embarrass yourself any further, lucid, consider these facts about Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama:

Since his country was occupied by China, he has lived in exile in India. He harbours the Chinese no public grudge.

In 1998, he pledged his support to the People's Republic of China's proposal to ban all weapons of mass destruction.

He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.

In April 2005, TIME magazine listed him among their 100 most influential people in the world.

He has stated his belief that modern science takes precedence over ancient religions: "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview."

He has written or co-authored 13 books, ranging from techniques for living happily, through his experiences of Tibet, to the convergence of science and spirituality. If you had read any of these, I think you would have been impressed by his lucidity. If you had ever heard him speak, you would also be impressed by his command of English, which is his second language.

For a complete list of the awards he has received, click here. There are fifty-five in all.

Capiche?
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Rick
post May 25, 2006, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ May 25, 10:09 AM) *
... Yes statistics speak of a vision from a point of reference. ... statistics so we might go beyond the generalized statement of your personal opinion, based on the observations made from your point of reference, (effects of human actions and beliefs according to your personal observations) which is directed towards societal significance or worth.

This is a good point. To claim that some belief system or culture has benefitted society or not one needs to define standards of benefit and that means defining "the good," a central philosophical question.

Perhaps the standard for historical impact might be the Crusades of the middle ages. Perhaps it might be the defeat of fascism by the Allies in the world wars. Maybe it's the peace movement in the USA that led to the ending of the war in Vietnam. Who can say?
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Guest
post May 25, 2006, 05:28 PM
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WU WEI, or Actionless Action

There is a story of a traveler who arrived at a remote village that was suffering from an extreme drought. In their desperation the villagers had called in a taoist sage to bring about rain by magic. The sage came to the village, looked around carefully and talked to the inhabitants. Then he built himself a little shack outside the village. For three days and nights he remained inside. No one saw or heard him do anything. After three days the sage emerged from the shack and started to leave.
As he was leaving, it began to rain. The traveler was amazed and ran after the sage. "How did you bring the rain ?" he asked. The sage replied, " I didn´t make it rain. When I came to the village I saw that the inhabitants were out of harmony with Tao. So I sat in contemplation until I restored the harmony with Tao. And when there is harmony, the rains come naturally."
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Joesus
post May 25, 2006, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE


Perhaps the standard for historical impact might be the Crusades of the middle ages. Perhaps it might be the defeat of fascism by the Allies in the world wars. Maybe it's the peace movement in the USA that led to the ending of the war in Vietnam. Who can say?


There's a good chance it ain't in the determination, or definition of having a high IQ. which is measured or standardized by another point of reference.

..and often leads to prideful actions based on delusional aggrandizement of ones opinion of ones self, and ones observations.......
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