The Wayward Mysticism of Alan Watts, A wise guy, but no master Options

[Lao_Tzu]

The first book I read about eastern mysticism was by Alan Watts. It was his "The Way of Zen". However, he confused me in later reads. I found this essay about his work, which I think is quite accurate.

I am a fan of Watts, but it seems that his mysticism has serious flaws that might hinder spiritual aspirants who follow him exclusively.

Check it out: The Wayward Mysticism of Alan Watts.

[Rick]

... I am a fan of Watts, but it seems that his mysticism has serious flaws that might hinder spiritual aspirants who follow him exclusively. ...

Certainly one will want his spiritual guidance from a source of true mysticism, rather than from the alleged pseudo-mysticism of Watts. But how is this guidance conveyed from the true mystic, if not via words, tones, gestures, etc.? It seems the authors of that essay are slamming Watts for trying to convey a sense of the ineffable. Therefore, let those authors show us how it is properly done (perhaps by remaining silent?). Then it seems the authors are condemning Watts for any attempt to help the seeker.

No, we had better stay away from Watts' "flawed" mysticism, and take only the unflawed kind. In what book are we to find that, if any attempt to describe it is doomed to condemnation by the likes of Nordstrom and Pilgrim?

[Lao_Tzu]

I think it's a bit more involved than Nordstrom and Pilgrim criticising Watts simply for the attempt to describe the mystical. That the mystical cannot ever be fully described is understood, but there are nonetheless ways of describing it that are seriously erroneous, and Watts' is one of these.

The fact that Nordstrom and Pilgrim are trying to convey is that Watts' mysticism is actually not mystical - if anything, it is antimystical. Watts is, as you say, trying to convey a sense of the mystical. But he makes the massive error of reducing mystical experience to mere intellectual enlightenment: "When one gets the message, one hangs up the phone."

Watts hereby criticises effort, or practice, in striving for mystical experience, being obsessed with the idea of Tat Tvam Asi as a pervasive truth about the universe, substituting the idea of thusness for the living experience of it, and thereby negating the need to practice (which would be done in order to realise the experience of it, not just the idea).

So, as Nordstrom and Pilgrim correctly point out - "to get the message about the unreality or illusoriness of ego is not at all the same thing as actually experiencing egolessness, which is what Zen practice is all about."

This is not, then, merely a criticism of any attempt to describe the mystical, but a criticism of an obviously flawed description, and one that involves dangerous distortions, and equations of unequal things.

I agree with you, that we should steer clear of flawed mysticism. But Nordstrom and Pilgrim are not inclined to hammer genuine mystical instruction in the way that they've hammered Watts' over his antimysticism and critique of effort. They point out in the conclusion that:

"All over the country people are beginning to realize that spirituality is fundamentally a matter of practice, discipline, and effort. Watts. critique of effort would now fall on rather deaf ears, we suspect. It is dated, to say the least, Most people no longer want a wayward way, they want a clear and orthodox path to follow."

And this is what genuine mystical instruction (which is, as you rightly say, conveyed by words and gestures) would provide.

Try Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel. No shortcuts there. Or something by D.T.Suzuki (though I've not read him) who is supposed to be very good.

[OnlyNow]

Lau_Tzu--I'm so glad you're here!

I'm going to add the cited books to my reading list. I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (Robert M. Pirsig) ages ago. It's not the ultimate book on the subject by any means, but it had an effect on me. The concept is presented gently, via a father-son cross-country motorcycle journey. It's weird, because at the time, I had no idea what the book was really about. The only reason I read it was because a boyfriend who was a motorcycle enthusiast (and rode a BMW just like the one in the book) insisted I ought to read it. The book had conflicting qualities that I had never encountered. It seemed incredibly boring--and yet I kept returning to it. Somewhere along the way, I "got it".

[katatinka]

... I am a fan of Watts, but it seems that his mysticism has serious flaws that might hinder spiritual aspirants who follow him exclusively. ...

Certainly one will want his spiritual guidance from a source of true mysticism, rather than from the alleged pseudo-mysticism of Watts. But how is this guidance conveyed from the true mystic, if not via words, tones, gestures, etc.? It seems the authors of that essay are slamming Watts for trying to convey a sense of the ineffable. Therefore, let those authors show us how it is properly done (perhaps by remaining silent?). Then it seems the authors are condemning Watts for any attempt to help the seeker.

No, we had better stay away from Watts' "flawed" mysticism, and take only the unflawed kind. In what book are we to find that, if any attempt to describe it is doomed to condemnation by the likes of Nordstrom and Pilgrim?

Muchas gracias! So good to see somebody say something sensible about mysticism. I am a "Mystic" ( a real one) and hate that word "mysticism."I think "plug" would be a better way to describe myself. And perhaps it would distinguish me from all the New Age clap-trap that goes by the name "mysticism" and also perhaps it would relieve me of the comments of people who have never once had even one "mystical" experience. Being a "mystic" is a JOB, folks. You don't get paid any money for it and there is never any time off. Honestly, no one has any place saying any thing about mysticism unless they are mystics themselves. You don't know what you are talking about. Read Evelyn Underhill's Mysticism and read St. Teresa of Avila's Way of Perfection and her autobiography.

[Deborah]

In reply to "Muchas gracias! So good to see somebody say something sensible about mysticism. I am a "Mystic" ( a real one) and hate that word "mysticism."I think "plug" would be a better way to describe myself. And perhaps it would distinguish me from all the New Age clap-trap that goes by the name "mysticism" and also perhaps it would relieve me of the comments of people who have never once had even one "mystical" experience."

Here, here! I too hate the word(s) mystical/mysticism. It has such trite conotations, that to label such a profound, intense and real experience with that word, almost seeks to devalue and dismiss it. It sounds so 'airy fairy' and whimsical (no doubt due to it's misuse by those who have never had such experiences). When I first learned that this was indeed the term used for such experiences, I was horrified. Though, perhaps that is more an indication of my negative pre-conceptions assocaited with it's 'willy nilly' use. Without it though, I wouldn't have been able to find the literature...or others that have had such experiences.
Keep up the good work! ;-) lol

[Zulfikar Zaban]

I used to read a lot of Watt's to the point where I always found myself referring to him, and thinking more about his words than my own. He was the first real profound author I had come across and his eloquence and knowledge eclipsed my own. Over the year's I found other authors who were very profound and knowledgeable and I got away from Watt's writing. One of my main criticisms of Watt's is that he seems to have believed that the problems with the world were a Western thing and I identify more with Rene Guenon, who didn't think the problem was Western, but it was more a problem of modernity. Don't get me wrong, Watts did have some interesting perspectives on Western Mysticism, but I think he also had some flawed critiques. Whereas Watt's would speak of Western culture as being "Divisive and quarrelsome", Guenon would compare Western religions and beliefs and show how similar they were and didn't even suggest such divisions, which in itself is a divisive thing to do. An interesting book to check out is "Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works", he was so moved by a speech that Watt's gave that he moved to San Francisco and studied and meditated with Watt's 3 times a week at the Center for Asiatic Studies. He ended up going his separate ways from Watt's and coincidentally discovering Guenon. I hadn't read Watts for a long time when I started reading Guenon and I wen't down a more Guenonian path and later discovered Father Seraphim Rose, although I don't completely identify with Guenon and Rose, as for one, I'm typing on this newfangled laptop right now, which wouldn't possibly align me with the Traditionalists movement. Anyway, interesting thread.

[Rick]

What counts is if one is genuinely seeking to understand. Then one has the courage to accept the truth.

[code buttons]

What counts is if one is genuinely seeking to understand. Then one has the courage to accept the truth.

Glad you're back, Rick. Check back, if only periodically, but never leave for good. Your input here is vital. And keep your contact info updated, in case we need to dig out your expertise when you're not around, please.

[Pierre Estoppey]

There's nothing "flawed" about Watt's mysticism. He never negated "the need to practice". He only showed the futility of any discipline followed in order to reach something in the future. His "practice" is full attention to the present moment. Is there any other spiritual practice? He said the same thing as Tolle, Nisargadatta and many others, only he said it with a style, a humor and a lightness which will always make him suspect in the eyes of all the would-be orthodoxes who take themselves so seriously.

[Joesus]

Nice

[abyler]

He was the first real profound author I had come across and his eloquence and knowledge eclipsed my own. Over the year's I found other authors who were very profound and knowledgeable and I got away from Watt's writing. One of my main criticisms of Watt's is that he seems to have believed that the problems with the world were a Western thing and I identify more with Rene Guenon, who didn't think the problem was Western, but it was more a problem of modernity.

[allon]

please tell me i need a good lovespells forum

[Joesus]

please tell me i need a good lovespells forum

OK.. you need a good lovespells forum