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> On The Spiritual Laziness And Gullibility Of Christians, Islamic Sheep, Buddhists, And Others Who Cannot Think For Themselves
Plato
post Apr 30, 2006, 09:25 PM
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Joesus,

Have you ever read these books linked in commentary behind picture?

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Joesus
post Apr 30, 2006, 09:44 PM
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No I haven't, but I have heard nothing but good comments by those who have.
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Plato
post Apr 30, 2006, 11:09 PM
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Please comment if you will on anything that you feel runs contrary to your views. It would be appreciated.

When you accumlate a lot of information one cannot help adapt some of these things to models on which we can create. Now I would rather understand the expeirence and what is under it. Try and get to the center. Is this not appropriate?

I understand that removing "these layers" might of been of interest to somebody who sits and watches, yet, it would not be without effort to undertsand that this same process can be used to follow back the day's experience in events and to see what reactions you had surfaced in your reaction. You can't help but learn of the emotions that manifest, and the deeper places these can reside?

Now the reason I brought it up is the way in which Don Juan would get Carlos to shift his attention. If you thought for a instant that the person was designed and colored a certain way, it was fruitful for Don Juan to shift his Tonal.
Change his way of seeing.

Now of course I am not suggesting you follow what I am saying, just that you experience life a new. Change the way you have always seen life, by adding some new thought(color), and see how it works in your life?

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Neural
post May 01, 2006, 05:31 AM
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Re: Don Juan: shifting attention, like focusing on shadows? Doesn't that miss the point, the bigger picture?
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Plato
post May 01, 2006, 08:50 AM
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I think amost every student has heard of Plato's Cave?

Some might heard of comparative uses of this analogy in a lot of different ways in science. Holographical in Hooft's case. Heisenberg had a opinion.

Isn't it about loosening the chains that bind? So what "is" the bigger picture in this case?
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Joesus
post May 01, 2006, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE(Plato @ May 01, 07:09 AM) *

Please comment if you will on anything that you feel runs contrary to your views. It would be appreciated.

When you accumlate a lot of information one cannot help adapt some of these things to models on which we can create. Now I would rather understand the expeirence and what is under it. Try and get to the center. Is this not appropriate?

What do you mean by center? How would you get there?
I would say, based on ones own information of relative boundaries and experiences of reality one builds their point of reference.
There was a paper I read where it was explained how we in our universe would perceive reality according to the way we experience ourselves and assume the same for any other relative universe. Then the idea was introduced that time and space is not the same in all parts of the cosmic universe.
Curved space time dfferences, gravitational variances bending light and shaping experiences differently like putting someone in a cave for their entire life and another in an open desert. Each evolves differently according to their experiences. We have similar examples here on earth. If you were to put a desert nomad in the middle of Los Angeles he and his camel might possibly be run over not knowing how to survive in the city whereas a city dweller might not know how to find water in the desert and die of dehydration.
Our various cultures separate themselves by beliefs. We pray to our gods that have been described to us by our parents and those we believe to be the authority, and are quick to dismiss anything that does not agree with the foundations of our own beliefs and experiences.
Theres a story of three blind men who had never seen an elephant and are led by some mischevious boys to different parts of the elephant.
One touches the ear and says the elephant is like a giant living carpet.
Another is led to the trunk and he says its like a giant wild snake.
The third is led to a leg and he says it is like a large living tree.
The three argue with each other until a sage suggests they are all right but can know more if they combine their experiences to expand their own and so the for a moment set aside their personal experience to allow a bigger one by including the others rather than rejecting them and isolating the elephant to their own personal experience.

Sages have been leading humanity to expand their own experiences since the beginning of humanity to the source of all things so that they do not stand still in a cave or a desert or any relative point of reference blinding themselves to the greater picture.
It's normal to want to uderstand the universe so that one can measure themselves in it, against it and project the possible or probable futures but this is the ego and it moves from limited points of reference when it is shaped to do so in such a limited way.
When one fully understands the reality of creation and where it all comes from then one begins to witness from a place that is in the world but not of it.
You can understand how the man who touched the trunk believed the elephant to be a wild snake and understand how the man who touched the ear thought it to be a living carpet and begin to see how one experiences life and the universe according to the senses. When the senses become gross or blind then the universe is not seen for what it is. When one lets in more light then it becomes increasingly clear.
QUOTE

I understand that removing "these layers" might of been of interest to somebody who sits and watches, yet, it would not be without effort to undertsand that this same process can be used to follow back the day's experience in events and to see what reactions you had surfaced in your reaction. You can't help but learn of the emotions that manifest, and the deeper places these can reside?

Emotions are relative to understanding. For thousands of years humanity has prayed to God to relieve them of suffering but suffering is only a misunderstanding of reality. If you believe you are a victim to a great God who insists you live life a certain way or be subject to punishment and eternal damnation then you will believe you have no choice. Any impulse to follow a desire my be squashed by fear.
When fear rules the way we live there is no life only suffering due to ignorance.

Once one begins to see how they limit themselves by feelings then one might wish to find where the feelings come from but eventually one rises above the need to follow the feeling and one begins to witness themselves having the feelings realizing they themselves are not the feelings. This then leads one to expand the point of reference beyond the relative.
QUOTE

Now the reason I brought it up is the way in which Don Juan would get Carlos to shift his attention. If you thought for a instant that the person was designed and colored a certain way, it was fruitful for Don Juan to shift his Tonal.
Change his way of seeing.

Now of course I am not suggesting you follow what I am saying, just that you experience life a new. Change the way you have always seen life, by adding some new thought(color), and see how it works in your life?

This is exactly how one uses useful boundaries to break boundaries. You use a tool to lead the mind to where it naturally wants to be rather than continuing to restrict it according to beliefs.
It's like having a dog. If you chain it to the porch and beat it into behaving a certain way it will resent you and bite you if it gets the chance, but if you feed it it's favorite food and let it grow naturally it would stay and be your best friend without the need to chain it through lesser subjective beliefs in how it should be or behave. It will naturally behave and act in the best way it could to please you in every way.

The minds favorite food is the stillness of the absolute. Fom this point of reference there is no one way, and it cannot be bound by any one way.

The word 'Repent" actually means to change your mind, to see life differently.
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Plato
post May 01, 2006, 10:19 AM
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I am responding to the first part of your post by presenting what was triggered in my mind.

In my mind the "big picture was the Sun," and as long as that is behind us, it projects forward the shadows. But to know it is behind us and reveals a purer source of information, what basis of reality can we draw to all the Sun's emanantions? A complete standard model and "new physics" beyond it?



All pictures are links.

Abbott and Flatland are much more spoken too, in regards to the picture linked throughout that site I developed. Why I refer to Banchoff. His thoughts on Abbott.

The center of the circle? Medicine Wheel? A circle in string theory? KK tower, and what is the relation to the energy?

Just some links to look at if your interested.

Quantum Geometry?
Laughlin, Reductionism, Emergenence

It is not so far disconnected, that Harvard could have it's branches very close together, in terms of it's research and developement?smile.gif How is mathematcs borne, and from where? If it was in a cognitive realization, then you would have to trace it back to where it began? How did this foundation of mathematics begin?

Joesus:
QUOTE
Once one begins to see how they limit themselves by feelings then one might wish to find where the feelings come from but eventually one rises above the need to follow the feeling and one begins to witness themselves having the feelings realizing they themselves are not the feelings. This then leads one to expand the point of reference beyond the relative.


While it would be difficult to see within this context as being separate from the feelings, to be separated from, is again one of those hard things to do in observation at the time. It is really hard to distance oneself emotionally in our reactions, but if the whole evolvement of consciousness was to see this within a wider perspective? Then, I would say one had progressed from a point of such involvement, to the observation as you suggest.

Foursquare, was relayed in a earlier post. As abstractual mind then becomes, the next phase, although we had been dealling with it emotively, has been raised in consciousness to a hierarchial triangulation. We had been dealing with foursquare but we had also been evolving in that pyramidial form to a apex in thinking/mind?

Joesus:
QUOTE
It's like having a dog. If you chain it to the porch and beat it into behaving a certain way it will resent you and bite you if it gets the chance, but if you feed it it's favorite food and let it grow naturally it would stay and be your best friend without the need to chain it through lesser subjective beliefs in how it should be or behave. It will naturally behave and act in the best way it could to please you in every way.


While the educated might have referred to Pavlov dogs and the conditioning factors we could take hold of, I am more inclined to see nature as it demonstrates itself in the animal world. I couldn't help but see the unique characterizations having raised dogs and horses for the last thirty years. While being older then that, such observations had revealled certain interetsing perspectives as well.

While some might have referred to the evolution of our brains, they would have seen correlative functions in these instinctual areas, emotive ones, as to fight or flight responses, as the evolution of the human being along side of that brain developement?

How did we become so perfect? smile.gif These body parts are all still evidentry, are they not?

These are matter states, yet mind is something else, while we use this body?

Joesus:
QUOTE
The minds favorite food is the stillness of the absolute. Fom this point of reference there is no one way, and it cannot be bound by any one way.


Yes how did you get there. I gave a paradigmal phrasing of Greene's that was related in terms of liminocentric structures.

This is not ill concieved, to thwart the mind and it's develping ego, but to help one realize that this potential could be expressed as you say in many possibilites. How many times could one have connected with the source/center, to know, that we work the world, and return back to the source. That it is constructively a potential within the theoretical defintions of science now? How it all began?

Here there might have been a supersymmetrical realization, an entropic one, as to the source, and any universe created from it, how so? It would have to be a theory of everything not just of the universe in operation.

As you know, such subjectivity of opinion even rests with good developed scientists, yet, they do not like the psychology?smile.gif
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Joesus
post May 01, 2006, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE


To understand…nothing is raised above……all is absorbed, bringing forth unity…inclusiveness…transcending through harmony, as harmony…

To discard, is to separate through judgment.

Beyond can only be attained through understanding the ‘now’… there is no ‘beyond’….and the ‘now’…is the dream…dreaming…through a dreamer.

In the absolute there is no separation of any thought or idea, however expansion is shifting of awareness, Fear and stagnation is dropped for expansion. True Judgment then is the separation of illusion from reality. This is wisdom in action.

Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
This represents wisdom in action. Choice to separate illusion from Truth.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor.
This represents ascending or rising above the illusions of beliefs so that one may see one for who he is, the manifestation of ones own beliefs to unite the self with the self in all of its manifestations.

Deut 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
To rise above the illusions of the ego and unite with the Self one begins to unite all aspects of reality with the Self rather than separate the individuals of perception in That Self and That Self. This represents surrender to Wisdom and Truth in the voice and communion of God through the Holy Spirit.


There is no separation in right judgement there is choice to unite rather than separate, to discard separation in the expanding awareness of Union, in the evolution of expanding awareness.
All action when understood from union in right judgment rather than judged from ego and separation unites rather than separates.

QUOTE

Joesus:
QUOTE
The minds favorite food is the stillness of the absolute. Fom this point of reference there is no one way, and it cannot be bound by any one way.


Yes how did you get there.

Using a set of tools, and guidance from someone who had got there the same way.
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Plato
post May 01, 2006, 06:05 PM
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Dianah:
QUOTE
Beyond can only be attained through understanding the ‘now’… there is no ‘beyond’….and the ‘now’…is the dream…dreaming…through a dreamer.



The standard model is a real. They are trying to define things beyond this. Experiments.

While I may look at your statement and say, "this schematic drawing is very real to me," how would it have been drawn for science? So in context of Einsteins view, things are always becoming?

Physical Reality as a Four Dimensional Existence

QUOTE
Since there exist in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.


"Now," is reduced from other potentials and GR is a result of quantum realities? You see?

QUOTE
Joesus:

The minds favorite food is the stillness of the absolute. Fom this point of reference there is no one way, and it cannot be bound by any one way.


QUOTE
Plato: Yes how did you get there. I gave a paradigmal phrasing of Greene's that was related in terms of liminocentric structures.
QUOTE
Joesus:Using a set of tools, and guidance from someone who had got there the same way


So by adding things the way they are, it takes on it's own connotations, as to what enlightenment might be? I raise that point. That's why I bring the idea of Liminocentric structure up, because while it is not I who formed this term, I rightly saw it's application. Seen it''s schematic drawing before I ever came across the term.

Do you understand the term Liminocentric, Joesus? Do you see how it is being used in my demonstration here, to that end, to explain the possibility of what enlightenment "might be" in relation to other potential realizations in the tools you use?

Mind you, I do not know what enlightenment is, and you are saying, that you do? Is that correct?

Resonances can change perspective as well, just by changing the spelling in a name?
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Plato
post May 01, 2006, 06:48 PM
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The Structure of Consciousness - by John Fudjack

QUOTE
In the West we tend to think of 'enlightenment' itself as an exceptional mental state, outside of (or separate from) ordinary states. But in many of the spiritual traditions of the East, enlightenment is described as, in essence, a 'realization' 9 about the ultimate nature of the mind. Enlightenment is really nothing but the 'ordinary' state, as seen (and experienced) from a somewhat wider perspective, as it were. This is not unlike how the Newtonian frame which describes events in the material world at a HUMAN scale can be conceived as enclosed within a wider frame of explanation that is Einsteinian.


Imagine that Einsteinian is encased in another wider frame? smile.gif How would you learn to see this?

If the probability of the quantum realities are reduced to GR, then what said Greene's statement might not of help me realize that such ordinary states, are quite capable in human beings presently? That the method taught might have been and had shown results usng the specific tools, but, that more work was still possible in understanding how the universe really began? How conscousness might have emerged? That it was cyclical.

Induction/deduction
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post May 01, 2006, 07:16 PM
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plato,

QUOTE
“The standard model is a real. They are trying to define things beyond this. Experiments.”


Any reality…is relative…what is standard today…was not the standard of yesterday, nor will it be the standard of tomorrow…understanding the essence and nature of reality…comes through experiment…which is nothing other then experience…which is just the projection of the perceiver…

QUOTE
“So in context of Einsteins view, things are always becoming?”


I have to say that this is my understanding as well, that all is becoming, without truly becoming……nothing is as it appears to be…is this not that, which science seeks…that which lays hidden behind appearances…the becoming?

QUOTE
“Since there exist in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.

"Now," is reduced from other potentials and GR is a result of quantum realities? You see?”


It’ all relative…reducing potential from other potential. The only thing that appears relative, yet produces an intangible knowing…is experience…once something has been experienced…then it is known, knowingly by the experiencer…which is in itself …relative…

The concept of now implies or hints at the source of becoming…time and space are concepts of the becoming, becoming relative. The concept of now is an abstraction, and ideation of potentiality, demonstrating its potentiality, through potential.



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Plato
post May 01, 2006, 08:24 PM
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Dianah
QUOTE
which is just the projection of the perceiver


....and all percievers?

Which what makes experimental validation important, as well as to the reason why theoreitcal models are introduced, to push perception beyond what it knew before.

Once a model is internalized, how is perception changed? The resulting reality comes when it can be verified. Can all our subjective states of experience? Enlightenment? This avenue is individual, and presents the opportunity, regardless? Is it the same for all?

A Conversation with Physicist Brian Greene, by John Fudjack

QUOTE
What he is describing here seems to be nothing short of a liminocentrically structured universe. As Greene recognizes, this leads to rather curious conclusions indeed! 8 But they are not unlike the conclusions that mystics have offered for ages. Compare Greene's speck, for instance, which is 'physically identical to the great expanse we view in the heavens above' to Blake's 'world in a grain of sand'. The difference between the two, of course, is that we normally hasten to explain away the proclamations of mystics as poetic hyperbole, whereas we expect the physicist to be LITERALLY describing the physical world!


Some things to ponder.
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Joesus
post May 01, 2006, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE


So by adding things the way they are, it takes on it's own connotations, as to what enlightenment might be? I raise that point. That's why I bring the idea of Liminocentric structure up, because while it is not I who formed this term, I rightly saw it's application. Seen it''s schematic drawing before I ever came across the term.

Do you understand the term Liminocentric, Joesus? Do you see how it is being used in my demonstration here, to that end, to explain the possibility of what enlightenment "might be" in relation to other potential realizations in the tools you use?

Mind you, I do not know what enlightenment is, and you are saying, that you do? Is that correct?

Resonances can change perspective as well, just by changing the spelling in a name?

If I understand what you are pointing to it is the re-cognizing of what is already there underlying the structure of the personal, the natural laws of the manifest which supports not only your personal experiences but all of them.

In regard to enlightenment itself. The reality of its being is present in the natural laws that support the evolution of expanding awareness. I have experienced expanding awareness and also have an experience of the absolute and I witness my self. There is no end to the experience of the Self and as such no definite end to enlightenment but the nature of it is relative to certain qualities of experience such as those that have been described by authors such as Govindra Yogindra (Patanjali) in the Yoga Sutras.

QUOTE
Dropping…is an action of separation…true judgment? Illusion is reality, and reality is illusion…understanding this…is wisdom acrued through the experience of harmonizing any form/action of judgment.

True judgment comes from the stability of being harmonized in Union. It requires action, choice to acrue wisdom.
QUOTE
This is YOUR perception of this statement…and I have no problems with that…it can however be perceived differently…to my understanding only…it is only saying that…what you ‘think’ defines your actions…and it hints at that which ‘thinks’ and to that which think it thinks…

You simply put what I said into different words, further demonstrating what is true for one is true for all within the natural laws that support the action of expanding awareness. Where a person may want to individualize experience it cannot remain individual but of the One Consciousness.

QUOTE
Again…it is just a matter of interpretation…I understand this to be saying; do not judge, for all is innately equal…and that which appears to be as your neighbor…is but oneself…the ‘outer’ is only the projection of the perceivers inner realties.

Again your ego is seeking to make your statement personal but you have simply rearranged the words to say the same thing.

QUOTE
There is no choice that can be made without a judgment…to understand that all are one, in the reflection of oneness…one realizes…that separation is a mere perception…and thus…there are no real choices to make…all just IS.

To play in your sandbox: This is just the mind…chattering…and listening to its chatter.

But then the accruing of the accruable is the action of experience surrendered back to its source. This involves surrender, which is a choice.




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Plato
post May 02, 2006, 12:02 PM
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Joesus:
QUOTE
If I understand what you are pointing to it is the re-cognizing of what is already there underlying the structure of the personal, the natural laws of the manifest which supports not only your personal experiences but all of them.


Yes.

I relay some of my work and indications that I am discovering by understanding the schematic drawings underneath societies, cultures. You had refered to "historical signifiance once," which caught me off guard.

Model construction is used quite vigorously used by the ingenuity of mind there is no doubt, and similarily many philosophies have been presented for our observations and understanding.

I believe consciousness in individuality is seeking wholeness, all the time. Or is it just me? smile.gif

So you learn to identify these structures not only within your own consicosuness, but what is out there in the history of societies. Easteern, western,etc. Coins, temples and many other things which represent things to people. Solomans temple? Walking a gaelic pathway meditation?

Jung's comments on mandalas are a very important feature of my thought process.

Like energy packets, they are really quite revealling, about when the soul might have understood something previously? Experienced a time, when such a journey was frutiful to such end of identifyng the source as well?

Psychologically, medicine wheels might represent a wholeness for a society to gather, individually, to unite. Melvin Konner might have called the resulting experience a seizure, when such ancient tribes danced around the fires?smile.gif But if such a source is touched, how would it manifest in the language of the time, and be brought forward for our consideration today? A gentle reminder and energy released?

There is still science to consider here. What Lies Beneath, is a thought about Robert Laughlin and the condense matter theorist point of view. What are the building blocks of nature?
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Plato
post May 02, 2006, 05:48 PM
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I think thought is a good answer.

Having read all of Jane Roberts books, she would have answer a little different, but in essence, thought. I'll try and find her definition of the building blocks.

Robert Laughlin, does not care if they are Lego bricks or Drunk Sargeant majors:)

Self Organization of Matter, by Robert Laughlin

What Lies Beneath, by Eugene Samuel

QUOTE
Likewise, if the very fabric of the Universe is in a quantum-critical state, then the "stuff" that underlies reality is totally irrelevant-it could be anything, says Laughlin. Even if the string theorists show that strings can give rise to the matter and natural laws we know, they won't have proved that strings are the answer-merely one of the infinite number of possible answers. It could as well be pool balls or Lego bricks or drunk sergeant majors.
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lucid_dream
post May 06, 2006, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 25, 04:51 PM) *
But I'll tell you what.. what you focus on grows.


This is lame, Joesus. We all know you can create whatever delusions you want for your own personal enjoyment. What would be more impressive, though I doubt you can do it, is if you said that what you focus on (something other than certain of your body parts), others will perceive to grow. Otherwise, your statement of "what you focus on grows" is utterly vacuous!
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Joesus
post May 06, 2006, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 06, 07:29 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 25, 04:51 PM) *
But I'll tell you what.. what you focus on grows.


This is lame, Joesus. We all know you can create whatever delusions you want for your own personal enjoyment. What would be more impressive, though I doubt you can do it, is if you said that what you focus on (something other than certain of your body parts), others will perceive to grow. Otherwise, your statement of "what you focus on grows" is utterly vacuous!

You can put your attention on the Truth or illusion. Either will give you an experience but not necessarily expand conscious awareness.

I just don't get where you are going with the focusing on others so they will grow thing. Do you think you can do that with me? If you project your doubt in my abilities, do you believe you can change me by projecting something else?

Your post doesn't seem to come from a stable point of reference, it feels more like you need to vent some frustrations and you picked me to try and make yourself feel better.
Is it working?
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Lindsay
post May 06, 2006, 08:12 PM
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Due to computer problems, I have been MIA for awhile. Good to see all of you have been having fun.
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lucid_dream
post May 06, 2006, 10:48 PM
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Joesus, the problem I have is that your advice is self-centered and does not take into account other people's experiences. Your statement that "What we focus on grows" is vacuous because it's a statement that we can imagine whatever we want, we can delude ourselves however we want, and I have a problem with it on ethical grounds because it discounts other people's experiences and comes across as narcissistic or overly self-centered. If your powers of mind enabled you to change what I experience, or what others experience, instead of what you experience, then that would be interesting. But to say that your powers of mind enable you to change just what you experience is trivial.

I would call into question your powers of mind, since true power to me means bringing changes to others and not just ones own personal experience. True powers of mind are world-changing and effect everyone, not just one person. Have your powers of mind changed the world for everyone, or just for you? If just for you, then that does not reflect the true power of mind.
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Joesus
post May 07, 2006, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 07, 06:48 AM) *

Joesus, the problem I have is that your advice is self-centered and does not take into account other people's experiences. Your statement that "What we focus on grows" is vacuous because it's a statement that we can imagine whatever we want, we can delude ourselves however we want, and I have a problem with it on ethical grounds because it discounts other people's experiences and comes across as narcissistic or overly self-centered. If your powers of mind enabled you to change what I experience, or what others experience, instead of what you experience, then that would be interesting. But to say that your powers of mind enable you to change just what you experience is trivial.

I would call into question your powers of mind, since true power to me means bringing changes to others and not just ones own personal experience. True powers of mind are world-changing and effect everyone, not just one person. Have your powers of mind changed the world for everyone, or just for you? If just for you, then that does not reflect the true power of mind.

The true power of the mind lies in the knowledge of who you are. This affects everything that you have a relationship with automatically.
The statement what you focus on grows is directed toward the relationship one has with the manifest based on the Truth of who you are. IF you can align yourself with the Truth and gain Unity with all things you will by the virtue of expanded awareness, surrender in service to the whole, to all of humanity.
This means that if you are to help a child learn to differentiate the choice between fear and love you will do everything necessary that will enhance the experience.

There's a great story about this called the Bagavadghita. It's a story where God incarnate appears before a waking disciple to explain that all things are not as they might appear. The struggle between light and dark, or evil and good are examples of the mind finding choices that lead to expanding consciousness and self awareness through expression of desires and thought.

Perhaps you are familiar with this prayer:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will direct your paths.

Depending on your background of beliefs about God, your personal relationship with the manifest and the unmanifest, I'd be interested to know what you think about the above.

Christ was an example of surrender in action. Where the Pharisees sought to maintain their control over religion and to elimiate Jesus by killing him, he (Jesus) knew there were limits to what he could do to influence humans that chose to see it their own way, even if their way was to take away peoples freedom of choice by creating laws to manipulate the way they thought and lived.
The majority of Christs followers wanted Jesus with all his miracle power to kill the oppressors of the people, but Jesus knew they represented the fear in the people of ignorance who had no clue of their own ability to change themselves and their world. He showed them that the body is not without the influence of the mind and could overcome beliefs of sickness and even death, but he also knew that you can lead one to spirit but you cannot make one unite with it though the mind and in body and soul.

So now your anger towards God, for not changing the world according to everything that you believe is wrong, is being projected onto anyone who does not meet your expectations of how a righteous/right-minded person should live and act. Anyone who might rise above the need to avail themselves to the choices of others to persue a path of ignorance is narcissistic and uncaring.... Blah!

The Statement is hardly vacuous. It is symbolic of the Truth that is available to one and all. No one suffers by being a victim other than in the mind. Some do everything they can to avoid the truth through beleifs and ignorance and there isn't a damn thing you can do to change the path of one destined to walk that road. You can only make that choice for yourself, and if by your own example, you happen to be an influence to someone who is ready to do the same then by virtue of your own lack of compromise you have played a part in service to humanity.

I wouldn't suggest you measure your self worth by who you influence, unless you want to achieve a higher state of arrogance.
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Plato
post May 07, 2006, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE
Joesus:
QUOTE
lucid_dream: True powers of mind are world-changing and effect everyone, not just one person.
The true power of the mind lies in the knowledge of who you are.


I do not believe these statements are inconsistant with each other.

While it might have appeared that Einstein had indeed given us a paradigm which was indeed world-changing and affected everyone, how well he might have known himself?

He was driven as to the" focus and outcome" of that growth? Yet being Jewish, and the meaning he might have had for God(Old ONe) had a perspective about nature, that was embued with a certain terminology?

Thomas_Torrance
QUOTE
In 1978, he won the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion for his contributions to theology and the relationship between it and science.


You must understand there is a current struggle in topday's world with those who support the Templeton Foundation, it's scientists, and those who believe science should remain free of such influences, so they propagate any information forthcoming as tainted.

Einstein and God By Thomas Torrance

"Do you believe in the God of Spinoza?" was asked of Einstein.


QUOTE
I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things.
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Joesus
post May 07, 2006, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE
I do not believe these statements are inconsistant with each other.


But they were delivered from different points of reference in understanding of the meaning.
Lucid dream has created this thread with a desire to change the world or the people in it.
This desire is not a bad desire in fact the desire is in alignment with the process of change in experience and evolution.
The problem is in his judgment. You can try to idealize what a person should think and believe in a perfect world but then who creates the standard?
Who does not affect the people around them, and is the quality of ones own evolution comparable to another if individual expression and experience are to exist in manifestation of thought or desire?
No one said his desire cannot be fulfilled but there might be someone else with a desire to let the individual experience develop in perfect cooperation so that everyone can have their desires fulfilled without dividing desire into good, better, best, or bad.
I would say Lucid dreams of being right, so that his choices are not judged in the same way as he judges others. Generally speaking those with the biggest self worth issues are usually the first to condemn others for being off so that they can try to convince themselves that they are not totally worthless. Those people of low self esteem also feel threatened by others who would speak their own mind without bending to anothers will or belief systems.
Humility is not in lowering ones self to anothers level but to absorb all at the same level, to live free of judgment because all are seen and experienced as equal. That is true freedom, to live without fear of being absorbed by a lesser quality of life and experience, to live without a threat to ones own ability to make choices and to expand into creation gracefully and effortlessly.

When one begins to measure the worth of ones self, the scale changes according to ones beliefs and understanding.

How would you begin to set a standard when you know it will necessarily change?

I think everyone tries to do the best that they can. I don't think anyone says to themselves I am going to deliberately sabotage myself and my relationship with humanity unless they are so stressed out that they cannot face themselves.
Ignorance is not exactly bliss but if you don't have an experience of something does it mean you are stupid, or lazy, or gullible or a sheep that cannot think for yourself?

I think Not! dry.gif
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Lindsay
post May 07, 2006, 04:31 PM
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Plato, excellent material. We owe you much thanks for the following link:

http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/refl..._1/torrance.htm

Yes, indeed, I agree: In my humble opinion, GØD--not to be confused with God, or god--is, as Einstein said, "cosmic intelligence".smile.gif

However, the practical question is: What is the practical value of this concept? What difference does it make for each and everyone of us, today and tomorrow?
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Neural
post May 07, 2006, 05:27 PM
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where does Einstein say God is cosmic consciousness? He referred to God as "cosmic intelligence" and "the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence" but this is not the same as "cosmic consciousness".
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lucid_dream
post May 07, 2006, 05:34 PM
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Joesus, you would make a terrible psychologist since you would undoubtedly interpret everyone in the worst possible way since this is precisely what you just did with me by implying I have self worth issues. But really, your response is a rather obvious ad hominem by you in order to side-step my point that your advice that "What you focus on grows" is vacuous and is a product of narcissism or self-centeredness because it does not take into account changing other people's experiences.

If you want to believe that a calm docile unquestioning thoughtlessly dull mind is the ideal state, then that's your prerogative. If you want to crawl up in your little shell and hide from the world, living the life of delusion, then that's also your prerogative; and if you want to preach to others to do likewise, then I guess that's your prerogative too, but don't think I won't be critical of you for it and try to point others towards a better path.

Maybe your real mantra is "Fake it til you make it"? Is it your dream to become a carbon copy of your teachers, as if that were some great feat in life?

Ok, enough with the ad hominems! I sincerely believe your POV is deficient and the proof is in the fruit (or lack thereof) of the tree.

About who sets the standards, this is a moot point. Nature is a wonderful play of power. Those standards with power will prevail, as can be seen today. I am just doing my part.

And btw, we would all do good to read more of Einstein's views, directly from his own words. I recommend his autobiography.
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Joesus
post May 07, 2006, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ May 08, 01:34 AM) *

Joesus, you would make a terrible psychologist since you would undoubtedly interpret everyone in the worst possible way since this is precisely what you just did with me by implying I have self worth issues. But really, your response is a rather obvious ad hominem by you in order to side-step my point that your advice that "What you focus on grows" is vacuous and is a product of narcissism or self-centeredness because it does not take into account changing other people's experiences.

I don't take it seriously, (your point that is) because I don't share your limited experience of people.
QUOTE

If you want to believe that a calm docile unquestioning thoughtlessly dull mind is the ideal state, then that's your prerogative.

Actually I think were back to exposing your thoughts about humanity based on your projections. If you actually want to help humanity you would have to give them more credibility for their potential than make blanket statements about them without actually getting to know them.
More to the point, What you focus on grows; the more you project judgments into humanity and are looking at the glass half empty, the more you project the problems you believe to be real into your own experience.
Your thoughts actually have an affect on reality.

QUOTE
If you want to crawl up in your little shell and hide from the world, living the life of delusion, then that's also your prerogative; and if you want to preach to others to do likewise, then I guess that's your prerogative too, but don't think I won't be critical of you for it and try to point others towards a better path.

You've made an open point of being critical without actually having all the facts.
QUOTE

Maybe your real mantra is "Fake it til you make it"? Is it your dream to become a carbon copy of your teachers, as if that were some great feat in life?

Ok, enough with the ad hominems! I sincerely believe your POV is deficient and the proof is in the fruit (or lack thereof) of the tree.

I still don't know what it is you are comparing me to. My Teachers? The Tree?
What do you really know of me and what I do other than what you have interpreted through your beliefs of what I have written here? Are you satisfied with what you have experienced as being the totality of me and who I am? Are you satisfied with your present experience of life and the knowledge you have to make a judgment against humanity and to elevate yourself above all who you have judged as being lazy and unproductive?
QUOTE

About who sets the standards, this is a moot point.
Not as long as you want to pass judment on others
QUOTE
Nature is a wonderful play of power. Those standards with power will prevail, as can be seen today.
Sorry you lost me there. If you are referring to the strong surpassing the weak, I'm afraid you haven't been comprehending the bigger picture.
QUOTE
I am just doing my part.

And who isn't? You just want to justify yours.
QUOTE

And btw, we would all do good to read more of Einstein's views, directly from his own words. I recommend his autobiography.

I think you might benefit from your own advice....
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lucid_dream
post May 07, 2006, 09:02 PM
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The problem, Joesus, is that you preach a philosophy for the lazy who would rather not bother with the beautiful and mysterious complexities of life and who are content with experience of the "One". It is a lazy person's philosophy, and I'm sure you know this but won't ever publicly admit it.

But you will probably admit that behavior and outward actions are trivial for you since all you care about is your self-centered and narcissistic experience of the "One". Do you sympathize with your fellow beings or is sympathy a foreign concept to you? Don't you have a moral voice in your head that says outward actions and behavior are important, and the willpower to manifest your thoughts (if you have any)? Are you really content just sitting around all day meditating on the "One"?

Out of curiousity, were you ever a hippy? Are you autistic or ever diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome?

The powers of mind are great, Joesus, and what you preach is that it's a good thing to handicap the mind and debilitate it, and to put a leash on its powers. On the contrary, we should be unleashing the powers of mind, not trying to overemphasize some consciousness of One or other meditative state that is but a tiny fraction of the mind's powers. You may fear the powers of mind, which is why you preach hiding in one's shell and focusing on the One since, god forbid, we realize states of mind where the One is meaningless. You preach this backwater state of mind you call the One as the sole good in life, and I scoff at it. There is much more to life than what you preach, and to preach handicapping one's mind in order to reside in the state of mind of the One would be foolish indeed since this may be accomplished through lobotomy. But why destroy our brains and our minds according to your principles when we can realize the full complexity and power of what our brains were designed for.

You do not know the answer to the riddle of life, Joesus, and so to compensate, you settle on the philosophy of the lazy in order not to ask the question in the first place. This is why you're content. It is a pitiful state, to be content with a lie; it is better to be discontent and to continue questioning life while still living life as it was meant to be lived. Anything less is filth and lies.
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Plato
post May 07, 2006, 10:25 PM
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Lindsay:
QUOTE
What is the practical value of this concept? What difference does it make for each and everyone of us, today and tomorrow?


That the potential exists within each of us to understand we are partaking of a quest to percieve where this point in existance might be revealled. If not at the basis of reality, then what use the math? While I generalize becuase of my inefficieny of these interpretations, the vastness of the world of math, there was some undertanding geometrically inclined, that is revealled as we followed the logic leading to GR.

Did it mean we should be devoid of our belief in a God, if we held to science principles, while, we engaged in the subjectivity of our opinions?



QUOTE
An equation means nothing to me unless it expresses a thought of God.
Srinivasa Ramanujan


So to me, it is still all out there for us to look? How we might entertain that awe and beauty in nature?


"God does not play dice" by Thomas Torrance

QUOTE
Einstein was not a determinist but a realist, with the conviction that, in line with Clerk Maxwellian field theory and general relativity theory, nature is governed by profound levels of intelligible connection that cannot be expressed in the crude terms of classical causality and traditional mathematics. He was convinced that the deeper forms of intelligibility being brought to light in relativity and quantum theory cannot be understood in terms of the classical notions of causality–they required what he called Übercausalität–supercausality. And this called for "an entirely new kind of mathematical thinking", not least in unified field theory–that was a kind of mathematics he did not even know, but which someone must find. 48

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Joesus
post May 07, 2006, 10:31 PM
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All mental masturbation lucid. If you really want to have an intelligent conversation it requires being real with yourself and your world. Once you rise above the fear of the boogeyman to see it for what it is and quit projecting from limited assumptions there is so much more to experience.

I can wait.
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Neural
post May 07, 2006, 10:32 PM
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note that Übercausalität can also be translated "overcausality", in addition to "supercausality". Do you know anything more about this Übercausalität? I'm going to google around a bit for more info.
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