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> On The Spiritual Laziness And Gullibility Of Christians, Islamic Sheep, Buddhists, And Others Who Cannot Think For Themselves
Joesus
post Jul 14, 2006, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jul 14, 07:27 AM) *

if a cockroach became more conscious and aware of self and circumstances, would it wonder whether his fellow cockroaches served a purpose? Sure, they've been around for 350 million years, which is far longer than humans, but what purpose do they serve? Do they have a right to existence? Who determines that right, except perhaps might? Does might (used both metaphorically and literally) make right? Apparently it does in a great many situations; just look to Nature for myriad examples. Survival of the fittest is the rule of the land; the weak perish, the strong thrive. The deaths of Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam are set in stone because they are weak, primitive (dare I say 'obtuse') fairy tales for those who wish to deal with surfaces only and preferably, pleasant-looking facades. I enjoy hastening the demise of these fairy tales when the opportunity arises because I have too much love for the untapped potential in man (call me an idealist...) and its realization (...and a pragmatist) to be satisfied with all the religious hoodwinking that goes on in the name of truth. That is the true blasphemy.

Will is such a mystery. How do you divine it? What is it?

Btw, I like your ice forming on a ship analogy. Never heard that one before.

Isn't the birth of each religion the surfacing of what is inside each human?
Being that we, (each human) does the best that we can according to what we know, (posibly not the best we can based on whatever you think is the ultimate potential) do you think telling a man while he is down and attempting to rise (in any direction), that he doesn't know what direction to take as an appropriate comment? There are lots of people doing that here and some are called preachers, some are called realists etc. etc.
Generally speaking, condemning someone without offering them something to replace what they know would only leave them empty and most likely uninterested. Obviously no one can be forced to think a certain way even tho some believe that you can influence someone to think a certain way.
I think that if someone is easily influenced it is only because they have started in the direction already.
Accidents don't happen in the universe as some believe. We tend to draw toward us that which resonates to our thoughts and feelings.
IF a man doesn't believe he can do something then he won't accomplish what he wants until that belief changes. You can paste a positive affirmation on top of the belief but the underlying belief is still chipping away at the affirmation countering the thought. Its like dropping one thought into the still pond of the mind and then dropping its opposite at the same time. Instead of the ripple affect reaching the shoreline of manifestation they crash into each other creating chop and often cancelling each other out.

That which births each religion is what lives inside of man. It can't die but it can be covered up, distorted or twisted into belief. The beliefs change and the distortions fall away in light of greater truth but still what is inside of each man cannot be killed unless it is the ego you are speaking of in its sparate identities that judge and create distance between the inner and the outer.

Each man/woman has to walk the path themselves because no one is going to do it for them. Even the idea that Jesus did something for humanity is often distorted to mean something according to relative truths that are saturated in limitation and belief in a universe that exists in judgment and separation. The kind of separation that keeps God separate from man and a separation that is conditional in terms of worth rather than awareness.

You have strong feelings about what you see around you and experience but you direct those feelings outward toward what exists as a result of outward focus.
You keep suggesting that no one delivers the truth in form of a solution to the problem but you yourself can't seem to find a replacement for the mind to make the changes.
I've heard you say go back to school but what school teaches the meaning of life? And what school has a reputation recognized by humanity to have the answers for each human being, with the personal goals and desires that exist within the diversity of humanity itself?

If you knew of such a place would you stand up and speak of it to humanity, even though you dislike so many of those that come here and do that very thing because they profess that it works for them?

I'm glad you like the ice forming on the ship idea, so let me ask you a question. Is your ship ice free and do you believe you see clearly?
Do you want to take the lead in directing humanity toward the best choice for their evolution, or are you in your commitment to remain dissatisfied with your present experience simply expressing your thoughts so that you might clear the rest of any ice that may remain on your ship?

If you don't understand the correlation between will and divinity then what is it that you speak of that is inside or untapped within man?
You must have somekind of idea or you wouldn't be dissatisfied with what you or with what others have. Are you running or walking toward something, or, running or walking away from something?
If you know what it is that you are doing can you see any resemblence in humanity of direction, confusion hesitation, disbelief, belief, frustration, dissatisfaction, happiiness or joy?
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lucid_dream
post Jul 16, 2006, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 14, 10:30 AM) *
I'm glad you like the ice forming on the ship idea, so let me ask you a question. Is your ship ice free and do you believe you see clearly?


It would be presumpuous for me to say I am ice-free when I may well be all ice or something other than ship or ice. Metaphors, while elegantly capturing aspects of truth, also constrain and warp it, and only work to a certain extent.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 14, 10:30 AM) *
Do you want to take the lead in directing humanity toward the best choice for their evolution, or are you in your commitment to remain dissatisfied with your present experience simply expressing your thoughts so that you might clear the rest of any ice that may remain on your ship?


I want both. There are myriad ways to lead. I lead in my own. Granted, the circle of influence is rather small (it's greater than 1 but less than 100,000) so I cannot say I am leading humanity towards anything for the time being. As for clearing the rest of the ice, noting what I said above about the limitations of metaphors, yes, I do believe in improvement and in clearer seeing and that is where my will takes me. "Man can do what he wants but not will what he wants".

QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 14, 10:30 AM) *
If you don't understand the correlation between will and divinity then what is it that you speak of that is inside or untapped within man?


Joesus, for a long time I believed they were synonymous, but on further reflection this is no different from saying that anything mysterious is God, which is a cop-out. Granted, will may be divine, but I want to know more than just this. The answer "God" should not be the end of our enquiries but should stimulate further inquiries. What is inside or untapped in man will not be understood until it is brought to light and made manifest. I have some ideas on this, but it is largely speculation.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 14, 10:30 AM) *
Are you running or walking toward something, or, running or walking away from something?


It's more like giving birth to something with the attendant birth pangs.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 14, 10:30 AM) *
If you know what it is that you are doing can you see any resemblence in humanity of direction, confusion hesitation, disbelief, belief, frustration, dissatisfaction, happiiness or joy?


For the most part, humanity has let me down and is not what it should be. What humanity should be, and how it is actually reflected in real people is a huge discrepancy. This is due to the gullibility and spiritual/mental weakness of many people. Hence you find billions of people blindly accepting religious tenets as truth on one day, and then committing atrocities, or worse of all, sloth and wasting their potential, on the other days. Probably 99.9% of people alive today feel no real purpose in life (waiting for your next paycheck or meal is not a real purpose) and do nothing but pollute and bring filth to the earth, both literally and figuratively. Mind you, I do not experience existence as filthy but holy and mysterious, and am struck by how little people live up to their potentials. Man is capable of much more than what he has realized and made manifest. He should not emulate or imitate the ape but should aim higher. Perhaps this is just the inner critic in me speaking; perhaps I shift my critical eye outwards so as not to have it turned inwards too much... perhaps. And perhaps I have a valid point whose truth transcends the individual's point of view.

No doubt you have silenced your inner critic through stilling of the mind, but for me, the inner critic motivates me to make changes. I have silenced the inner critic in the past, and could have it silenced now, but I choose not to, just as you choose to. It comes down to ethics and how we envision our minds should best be equiped to bring about change and make our world better. Without the inner critic, we remain content with a less than ideal world and do not take action. Of course, it's much more pleasurable to silence the inner critic, but ethical considerations should prompt you against this course of action. To have no inner critic is to effectively give up one's responsibility for making this world a better place. You can say that it's all in God's hands or whatever, but this is another cop-out. Accepting responsibility means that there are things today which must be changed on a world-wide basis. To silence one's mind (and inner critic) and attempt to pass the responsibility onto God or the One is irresponsible because it assumes that something other than one's self is in a better position to make decisions and bring about needed changes when in fact what is needed is the fully intact mind that has not been castrated, silenced, or otherwise subdued.

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Joesus
post Jul 16, 2006, 08:24 PM
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Stilling the mind does not in my experience end thought, or receptivity to surrender and service to humanity. In fact the only thing left for one who has achieved Self-realization is to serve humanity to reach its full potential. How this is done is much debated and often misunderstood.

If you could extend your holy perception of life from your self and the respect you have for your part to the rest of the manifest around you, to include humanity as you and your part, then the critic can be humbled to the reflection of the inner or the subtle internal gaps or chunks of clinging ice on the ship. Rather than standing in judgment due to comparisons formulated from perspectives of projection, one begins to notice what is taking place that is part and parcel to change not only in yourself, but also in that which is around you.

Granted there is much that can take place in the world to elevate human receptivity to the destruction of resources and the ignorance of Self-involvement each part has in the whole, but if you can see it, this is a reflection of the sundered parts of the self that are not yet fully united and functional to meet the potential you are aware of inside of humanity.
There is no point in smashing the seedling before it matures just because it isn't happening fast enough.
Some things just need to unfold as they must, and no force is going to change that no matter how much you disagree with it. It’s not unlike the birthing experience that is taking place within yourself, there is no point in judging the process or the speed in which it is taking place, so instead of letting the critic rule your emotional being by judging what is taking place in the process and letting the discontentment make you unhappy, rise above separation and judgment into wisdom and compassion.
You'll find the motivating factor within yourself is not fueled by dissatisfaction but natural desire to ascend the ignorance of separation and untapped potential. The dissatisfaction comes from judgment and fear you will not achieve your potential, and the emotional stress it creates in the nervous system hinders the ice from melting.

One can only take responsibility for their own awareness and offer what they can to those that are waiting for guidance and the experience of those who have something to give, so to grow themselves.
If you are helping more than 1 or less than 100,000, you have no need to worry about the others when you can give your attention to those who are listening.
If you can help one, that is more than most will do, and that is an accomplishment. Also, even if you haven't met them, there are probably more out there that are doing their part so you don't have to take responsibility for the rest of the world.
Faith in God is not just faith in some disembodied or mythical being but faith in God in the image of man. Man is not inherently evil, sometimes misguided but not inherently misguided.
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lucid_dream
post Jul 16, 2006, 09:44 PM
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I always appreciate your posts, Joesus. So when will you get around to writing the Psalms of Joesus, or something equivalent, or do you prefer the dialogues of the forum? It would be nice to have a book or collection of your thoughts since these offer refreshing perspectives to modern-day westernized minds that are receptive.
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Plato
post Jul 17, 2006, 04:56 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 13, 12:59 AM) *
This would be like jumping from childhood to adulthood where all childhood meanings no longer have value to the adult. (See 1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.)


I think this is part of the understanding that is necessary. Which fragments attached themself to the ship. The ship becomes synonomous, with the travel of the soul. This happens a lot in terms of how the subconscious forms itself to the "meaning of" the journey of life?

But back to the quote. It's part of recognizing that these atributes of the child through the "soul's evoluting and becoming" that we may say the words as a parent, from we had unconciously garnerd, "as that child."

Somewhere between the parent and child rote systems are accumalated ,and from this "the choice to bring out the adult" in each of us?

So while one sees these aspects of oneself, awareness of what self is doing in context of this system(TA), helps to move the mind to watch what is being attached too, and what we recognize, as letting one go on it's own way(in respect of the adult in each of us?)? That each, is on a journey.

This is probably the most required "observation of self" is not to intercede where such thought and choices determines it's own soul conclusion, and lives according to them. You would have to see where each is making that decision and know when not to interrupt.

Part of this thinking has to do wth just living your own philosphy? Being who you are. The "process of change" in society is one of osmosis and can be suttle at times? In those images we choose and ask the part of self, whatis the deeper meaning, as it sees something that runs contrary to what it percieved and consolidated ? Change?

So what does observation and insight have to offer?
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Joesus
post Jul 17, 2006, 08:51 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jul 17, 05:44 AM) *

I always appreciate your posts, Joesus. So when will you get around to writing the Psalms of Joesus, or something equivalent, or do you prefer the dialogues of the forum? It would be nice to have a book or collection of your thoughts since these offer refreshing perspectives to modern-day westernized minds that are receptive.

Good question.
There are so many books with variations on the theme and it seems that any topic can still be described in more ways than one. Not all descriptions are captured by any one voicing reflection as long as the one is not experienced in perception.
The bible seems to portray the Teachings of a man who himself never wrote anything, but met people where they were in the moment.
I guess this could inspire the question "do we as a collective draw toward us what is pertinent to our evolution through personal desire or inevitablity of change that takes place in the whole? Where does the personal begin and where does it end?"
I'm sure Jesus had lots to say but I doubt that everything he said is written down. The disciples seem to agree on certain verses since they are repeated in the bible in different books. What become memorable are those things that are key to each person and their growth. Maybe you'll take what you need from me and add it to what you gain in your own experience of what remains pertinent and write your book rather than me deciding what is important for you or western humanity.
If so let me know and I may read it.
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post Jul 17, 2006, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 17, 08:51 AM) *

I'm sure Jesus had lots to say but I doubt that everything he said is written down. Maybe you'll take what you need from me and add it to what you gain in your own experience of what remains pertinent and write your book rather than me deciding what is important for you or western humanity.
If so let me know and I may read it.

I doubt that I'd be interested in reading what the allegded character "Jesus" said. What matters to me is what I think. And what I think is ever evolving into a most crystalized and precise form thanks to what you and others think and share with me. That's how it works.
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post Jul 17, 2006, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jul 16, 11:16 AM) *

What is inside or untapped in man will not be understood until it is brought to light and made manifest. I have some ideas on this, but it is largely speculation.

... And I'm sure you'd rather keep them to yourself because they are too explosive, unconventional and expeculative to share with others. Well, I would like to hear them anyway. And feel free to use the PM if you wish.
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lucid_dream
post Jul 21, 2006, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Jul 17, 11:30 AM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jul 16, 11:16 AM) *

What is inside or untapped in man will not be understood until it is brought to light and made manifest. I have some ideas on this, but it is largely speculation.

... And I'm sure you'd rather keep them to yourself because they are too explosive, unconventional and expeculative to share with others. Well, I would like to hear them anyway. And feel free to use the PM if you wish.


thanks for the interest, code_buttons. I need to think more about how to express my thoughts on the matter.
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morpheous
post Aug 01, 2006, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Feb 11, 04:22 PM) *

actually you bring up an intresting idea, did you know almost all of the time people will choose security over freedom? this is what religions live off of.


Yes, Boy George seems to have taken a page out of that one ! The gospel according to "Patriots.". *LOL*
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post Aug 07, 2006, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jul 21, 05:09 PM) *

thanks for the interest, code_buttons. I need to think more about how to express my thoughts on the matter.

Start the thread when you're ready.
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Lindsay
post Aug 11, 2006, 09:07 PM
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Greetings all!

I just got back from a relaxing holiday and a visit to the St. John River area of New Brunswick, 1300 Km north east of Toronto.

Awhile back, I was asked to define "progressive". Accepting that I may have missed a lot since I was away, as one who believes in thinking for oneself, here I repeat the answer I, and others, then gave:
*************************************************************************

By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we:

1. center our faith on values that affirm the sacredness and interconnectedness of all life, the inherent and equal worth of all persons, and the supremacy of love expressed actively in our lives as compassion and social justice

2. engage in a search that has roots in our Christian heritage and traditions

3. embrace the freedom and responsibility to examine traditionally held Christian practices and beliefs, acknowledging the human construction of religion, and in the light of conscience and contemporary learning, adjust our views and practices accordingly

4. draw from diverse sources of wisdom, regarding all as fallible human expressions open to our evaluation of their potential contribution to our individual and communal lives

5. find more meaning in the search for understanding than in the arrival at certainty, in the questions than the answers

6. encourage inclusive, non-discriminatory, non-hierarchical community where our common humanity is honoured in a trusting atmosphere of mutual respect and support

7. promote forms of individual and community celebration, study, and prayer which use understandable, inclusive, non-dogmatic, value-based language by which people of religious, skeptical, or secular backgrounds may be nurtured and challenged

8. commit to journeying together, our ongoing growth characterized by honesty, integrity, openness, respect, intellectual rigor, courage, creativity, and balance
===========================================================
For more information check out the following site:
http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/
BTW, I presently, I am part of, and one of the founding members, of PATHWAYS
http://www.pathwayschurch.ca/
It is a new congregation of the United Church of Canada set up (January, 2006) to be specifically progressive.
Personally speaking, and because the word "Christiainity" carries with it so much baggage, I prefer to speak of Spirituanity. PATHWAYS, thus, is totally inclusive of all members of the human family not wanting to remain trapped in the womb of materialism. We have several members who call themselves "atheists".
Recently, thinking about what it means to be truly human, the following thought came to me: Human beings are animals with the power to think and choose what kind of animal we wish to be--gentle, helpful and progressive; or selfish, aggressive and vicious.
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Lindsay
post Nov 18, 2006, 02:29 PM
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There are three 3 users on line, in this thread? Why do you remain silent? What are you afraid of?
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Lindsay
post Nov 18, 2006, 02:32 PM
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And there are over 15 pages and 19,000 clicks. How come? What is so facinating?
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cerebral
post Nov 18, 2006, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Nov 18, 2006, 02:29 PM) *

There are three 3 users on line, in this thread? Why do you remain silent? What are you afraid of?


maybe they are busy reading this 15 page thread which is practically a novel!
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maximus242
post Nov 19, 2006, 11:35 AM
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Lindsay, you know how I was talking about how sometimes we argue over things for years? this is one of those topics.
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Lindsay
post Jan 05, 2007, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 19, 2006, 11:35 AM) *

Lindsay, you know how I was talking about how sometimes we argue over things, for years? This is one of those topics.
"This is one of those topics". True, and a cynical one it is.

SECULAR HUMANISM
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
===================================
Here is what I suspect is true: I suspect that most of the posters to this forum are secular humanists--I will be glad to be proved wrong.

As I understand it, secular humanists believe that there is no kind of deity and that all life ends in death. Life came into being as the result of a cosmic accident and subject to physical and evolutionary processes. It has no eternal significance. Conscious human beings, along with all other forms of life, including insects, will, eventually, meet the same end: death.

Furthermore, secular humanists love to bash those who believe that life is eternal. Again I add: I would love to be proved wrong.

And let me add:
I accept that it is possible to be a moral and ethical secular humanist.

Because I am not happy with what most traditional theistic religions--God as a personal being, out or up there--have to offer, I would like to see the development of some kind of secular, human and non-dogmatic spirituality capable of imagining that, whether we like it or not, life is an eternal venture. Theistically, I prefer to agree with St. John: "God is love".

Me? I prefer to dialogue about such important matters, not just argue about them. Meanwhile, I would still like an answer to the question: Why do we find this subject so facinating?

Did you hear about the pilgrims who, on their journey, saw two signs? The first one read: THIS WAY TO HEAVEN!
The second one read: THIS WAY TO A DISCUSSION GROUP ABOUT HEAVEN!
The pilgrims loved the fellowship of discussing things so much that they went to the discussion group. smile.gif

BTW, I kind of like what certain non-theists say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism
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Lindsay
post Feb 10, 2007, 02:20 PM
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For those who are serious students of religion, and who are really looking for a progressive way of doing this study, check out:
Religion/Theology, i.e., Philosophy/Pneumatology/Psychology/Somatology
Critique them Fairly. For example, not like Richard Dawkins
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Enki
post Jul 31, 2007, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Jul 31, 2007, 02:53 PM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Jul 31, 2007, 12:13 PM) *

Religious meme - "mind virus"?

How else would you call a mental state that causes apparently otherwise healthy individuals and entire human populations to commit acts as extreme as genocide, homicide, infanticide, suicide, ect? And worst yet, refuse to accept defeat in light of reason and objective data? Surely there are exceptions, as there are extremes. But, and this subject has been touched here many times, overall religion and religious believes have left an indelible mark in human history, and not a pretty one. http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13719


Code Button redirected me to this section to discuss “meme viruses” of Dr. Dawkins from
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showt...t=0&#entry81189 .

But as I see in this section Joesus, metaphorically speaking suffered Sufferings of Jesus Christ. smile.gif

Actually I think that Meme is a good thing, please do not surprise. Certainly some side effects are present. But Meme helps operatively to teach great number of people to something on our planet. So it depends who uses Meme and how.

Good Memes help to boost planetary morals, procure education, refresh databases, neuro -stimulate habitants of our wonderful planet. Actually it is a good thing from the beginning of the times. The side effects you numbered come from Bad Memes.

But do not worry, gradually we will make our Matrix more stable. laugh.gif [I am joking]

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