A Rational And Pragmatic Philosophy Of Religion, Rooted In Cosmology, Using science, I seek to understand life and practice the art of living Options

[Guest]

There are often two parts to the experience of God. The male part which is represented by the vertical staff of the cross is the unbounded absolute stillness. Then there is the female aspect which is represented by the horizontal part of the cross. This represents the manifest reality moving outward from the stillness.

Is this in the bible, or where did you get this information? And will I experience god in this same way if I was, say a Jew? (having in mind that the symbol of the cross is an offense to the jew)

[Guest]

There are often two parts to the experience of God. The male part which is represented by the vertical staff of the cross is the unbounded absolute stillness. Then there is the female aspect which is represented by the horizontal part of the cross. This represents the manifest reality moving outward from the stillness.

Is this in the bible, or where did you get this information? And will I experience god in this same way if I was, say a Jew? (having in mind that the symbol of the cross is an offense to the jew)

What you interpret is relevant to you. You can experience anything you put your attention on. If you ask can I experience the same thing I would say yes. Will you? Well, that is up to you.

If the Jew is offended it is only because he abhors any conflict with his own experience and symbology. Generally close minded people do not seek to find commonality in differences that result from different choices and experiences. If one lives in a cave and knows nothing other than the cave it may be difficult to convince him that there is life beyond the cave.

Within the yin and the yang and the symbology that is representative of that lies the same essence as in the OM symbol, the Ankh and the Swastika before it was used by the Third reich etc. etc.

So, you do take the whole bible at face value? As the word of god?

Who's values are you asking about? What translation of the Bible are you asking about?
There are differences in the meanings of the words when looking at the Aramaic and the Greek and then King James put a bit of his own ideas into his version, but on the whole the message still seems to get delivered to one who is open to receive it even if it is the message one needs to hear in order to pave the way for something greater.
Often the lesser interpretations open up the deeper sense of separation in us to push us into looking deeper into things and not taking anything for granted.

As far as the word of God Goes, you have to understand that the voice of God also called the Holy spirit speaks clearly through clear channels and is often distorted by the mind that harbors experience and beliefs in separation. A simple thought bubbles up through the nervous system and is bounced through layers of internal programs of the ego and can be distorted.
Jesus himself never wrote anything down for the record. His disciples wrote of their experiences years after the Crucifixion. John dictated revelations while imprisoned on Patmos in a cave after the death of Mary years after the death of Jesus.
Some of Jesus disciples never achieved enlightenment, but John did.
What Jesus Taught is also taught in many eastern Teachings. It would be difficult to know that unless you spend a bit of time with both eastern and western Teachings. There is a book called the aquarian Gospel which tells of Jesus' travels into the Himalayas to study before preaching in his adult life.
Ultimately you have to let your own heart be your guide to the Truth. Best that you clear any stress you have in the judgments you carry about who and what you don't like and the limited prejudice you might have in those beliefs that carry judgment. Then the heart can lead where there is no reason, where Truth prevails over intellectual beliefs based on lesser experiences of God and the Universe.

[Guest]

Personally, my stress level is very much under control. In seeking the truth, I never felt more at ease with my inner self until the day I was liberated from the opression of religion. Looking back at religion and Christianity (I was raised a Christian), I shake my head at how much in a trance I must have been come Sunday morning at Sunday School: Listening to these fantastic stories about some superior being sending his only son to save us from our sins. And how this infinitely powerful being was watching every move I made, every thought I had checking to see how many sins I was comitting. In all fareness to Christianity, I enjoyed it a little bit more as a teenager, when I found-out that I could be all the mischievious I wanted to be and commit all the sins I cared to commit, no matter how bad they were, so long as I asked god for forgiveness right before I died. That's is true convinience. I didn't care how amazingly hypochritical this sounded at the time.
But please elaborate on the answear to my previous question, if you don't mind. Let's just say, the version of the bible under your pillow, to give you an answer. The books in the bible, Revelations, for example. You actually believe that there's going to be a day of judgment, and a day of rapture? And while in the subject of Jesus, how exactly did he beat death? You seem to be well versed in the ways of human physiology (except for the heart having feelings, ect). I've always been very curious and nobody seems to give me a good answear. How did his decomposed body cells beat post-mortum state?. And please don't give me the obvious hogwash, miracle answear. If you don't know, just say so. I'll keep asking the question.

[Joesus]

Keep asking the question.
When the student is ready the Teacher will appear...

[Guest]

Keep asking the question.
When the student is ready the Teacher will appear...

Is that your final answer?

[Joesus]

Keep asking the question.
When the student is ready the Teacher will appear...

Is that your final answer?

Nothing is ever final..

But it will suffice for now.

[lucid_dream]

So, you do take the whole bible at face value? As the word of god?

If we are a part of God, then 'yes', the bible is the word of God, as are the most lunatic ravings ever made throughout history, as are the words I am saying right now. If we are a part of God, then I, speaking as God, am telling you that when I wrote down the bible, I was on crack. I thought it would be obvious to anyone who read the crap.

If the all-powerful God is separate from his creation, then he has empowered me to give you the truth about the bible. And the truth is that the bible is utter crap.

I assure you on the authority of God that I am speaking on behalf of God and communicating His thoughts to you. Amen!


Honestly, the bible is responsible for propagating the biggest lie in history. Think about that next time you open it up.

[code buttons]

Nothing is ever final..

But it will suffice for now.

I am not satiesfied with the answer. But, looking forward to hearing it sometime in the future. I just have a feeling that your pathway to the answear leads to nowhere. Which is actually better than somewhere, if that somewhere is where I don't want to be.

[code buttons]

If we are a part of God, then 'yes', the bible is the word of God, as are the most lunatic ravings ever made throughout history, as are the words I am saying right now. If we are a part of God, then I, speaking as God, am telling you that when I wrote down the bible, I was on crack. I thought it would be obvious to anyone who read the crap.

If the all-powerful God is separate from his creation, then he has empowered me to give you the truth about the bible. And the truth is that the bible is utter crap.

I assure you on the authority of God that I am speaking on behalf of God and communicating His thoughts to you. Amen!


Honestly, the bible is responsible for propagating the biggest lie in history. Think about that next time you open it up.

Actually, LD, I enjoy reading the bible. I mean, after all, it is Astrology at its best. And this is one of my arguments about it; why didn't somebody just pointed that out from the very begining? That way we would all enjoy reading these fascinating fables about ancient deitis and their crazy adventures amongs mortals. My favorite book is Revelations. I put its author up there with the best at symbolist prose. Up there with Isidore Ducasse and Arthur Rimbaud, the number one and number two on my favorite all-time list of poets.

This post has been edited by code buttons: Feb 17, 2006, 07:30 AM

[Joesus]

Nothing is ever final..

But it will suffice for now.

I am not satiesfied with the answer. But, looking forward to hearing it sometime in the future. I just have a feeling that your pathway to the answear leads to nowhere. Which is actually better than somewhere, if that somewhere is where I don't want to be.

Where ever you go there you are. In retrospect you wouldn't be where you are now if you hadn't been everywhere that you have been. In the future you will be where you choose to go even if you believe you have been influenced by another. In the end you will find there is no place you have been, or are at, that you didn't choose to be by your own design. If you have no appreciation for your own life then maybe it sucks to be you.

The mystery of life is simple. It is only a mystery if you separate yourself from everything else.

This post has been edited by Joesus: Feb 17, 2006, 11:55 AM

[Lindsay]

Feb. 11, I began this thread on
SEEKING A RATIONAL PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION rooted in cosmology and the other sciences by advocating the:
THE FREEDOM TO BELIEVE
BTW, Shawn has asked me if I would take on the role of being a moderator. To see if this role fits me, I am going to do a bit of an experiment. Shawn, if you read this let me know what you think.

IMO, it is okay for each of us to develop our own theology. It is okay to give it any name we wish. I call myself a unitheist--G-D is the Oneness--for now.

GØD--note my signature
I went on to say: For me, G-D (note the spelling) is not a person, out there, separate and apart from us and the cosmos--the all that IS, physically. G-D is, rather, the totality of ALL being, the cosmos, of which you and I, and all that is, are a part.

CURRENTLY, I AM A UNITHEIST/PAN-EN-THEIST NON-THEIST
Keep in mind, I believe I was born asking questions. However, I was raised as a traditional theist in a non-sophisticated family. At 23 (1953), I was ordained as a minister. Fortunately, I was ordained in a church (The United Church of Canada) which encourages questions. Born in 1930, in 1994, I became what I call, re-directed. I don't like the word, retired. I prefer to wear out, not rust out.

In addition to the classics of philosophy (e.g.,Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, Kant, Spinoza), psychology (Freud, Jung, Mesmer, Braid) and theology (Barth, Brunner, Niebuhr, Kung) , I have been influenced by the writings of the minister-psychologist, Leslie D. Weatherhead (Psychology Religion and Healing); Harry Emerson Fosdick (Union Theological Seminary, NY); Alfred North Whitehead (Process philosophy and Theology); Norman Cousins (Head First--the biology of hope); Pierre de Chardin, Victor Frankl, Matthew Fox, Bishop John Selby Spong and the whole Progressive Christianity movement. http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/
I will add others as they come to mind.
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I live with Jean--same age as I am--and a 20 year old cat, Boots, who, without any complaining, and still with affection, is going through the process of dying and teaching us how to do it. A companion of his, gentleman Jets (jet black with white flecks), preceded him, and gave us the first lesson. It would be interesting to know your relationship with pets, if any.

We have a daughter Catherine (1956) an artist, who lives with her artist husband, Wayne Adams, a carver, on a floating house---one quarter acre of floating property--
http://www.wildretreat.com/facil_fr.html
She helped Wayne raise his two young children. I did the wedding of the daughter at the floating hotel. We now have two step great-grandchildren from that marriage. Interesting story. I have a son, Turner, a musician and a teacher. He is married to Farah, a liberal-thinking Sufi Muslim he met at university. There are two daughters and a son. The oldest daughter will enter university this fall.
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TO ALL WHO HAVE PARTICIPATED, so far: Thanks for your very helpful contributions. BTW, it would be helpful if you were willing to share something of who you are, with all of us. If you have written anything in introducing yourself, feel free to copy it here.

What is your faith background? Christian, Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, Cynic, Lapsed, whatever? And, where are you at at this point?

Anonymous guests, if you wish to remain anonymous, okay; but it would be helpful if you would name your town, city, state, province and give us some clue as to your background and where your thinking is now. All sincerely held faiths, which respect the beliefs of others, are welcome. If you can do so without being imposing you faith on others, feel free to express it.
================================
EXPERIMENTS IN PRAYER/MEDITATION
July, 2007. I know use the expression
MEDITATIVE, AFFIRMITIVE, PROCESS PRAYING--MAPPing
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What is the nature and function of PM. Does prayer/meditation have any practical value? Or are we just talking to and fooling ourselves? Is it a powerful tool? Or just a toy? Or wishful thinking? Is there a God--one who hears and answers all prayers?

I will set up a sister thread to this one. In it I want to talk about and hear about approaches to prayer/meditation. Let us not be afraid to write about our personal experiments with this whole phenomenon pf PM to find out if it has any practical value and/or foundation in fact.

[lucid_dream]

so Lindsay, you're saying God is everything; Excuse me, I mean G-D (note the spelling). So what? People have said this since antiquity. Why give it a new name or claim that you developed this theology of panentheism? Your concept of God has been around for at least several millenia.

What would be more useful is if you told us what you got from each of the philosophers you listed above, and what you thought their major contributions were.

[Lindsay]

so Lindsay, you're saying God is everything; Excuse me, I mean G-D (note the spelling). So what? People have said this since antiquity. Why give it a new name or claim that you developed this theology of panentheism? (Where did I claim this? BTW, I use G-D so as to avoid confusion with the theist God. Keep in mind, I first heard the word when I was in my 40's.)
Your concept of God has been around for at least several millenia.(I have never denied this. I believe Jesus was a pan-en-theist/universalist. Now, give me all the references you can....

What would be more useful is if you told us what you got from each of the philosophers you listed above, and what you thought their major contributions were. (Gladly, as the opportunity arises.)

IMO, while it is true that the concept and idea of panentheism has been around for a long time, I think it has been neglected by most Orthodox and Catholic theologians, maybe even condemned by many fo them. Certainly, it is not familiar to many people. I did not hear of it, specifically, until I heard The Rev Matthew Fox speak about it is the 1970's, when I was in my forties. BTW, feel free to add your assesment of the approach to understand the god-concept. Meanwhile check out:
http://www.kheper.net/topics/worldviews/panentheism.html
My real interest in not just in theory, but the pragmatic application of it, in real life.

This post has been edited by Lindsay: Feb 19, 2006, 07:25 PM

[lucid_dream]

Meanwhile check out:
http://www.kheper.net/topics/worldviews/panentheism.html
My real interest in not just in theory, but the pragmatic application of it, in real life.

Looks like the Kheper site has a new look; they changed their background color from black to white. Kheper is a great site for a diversity of esoteric info.

"The Pragmatic Applications of Panentheism" - I'd love to buy that book. So when are you going to write it, Lindsay? What would its TOC look like?

[Lindsay]

"The Pragmatic Applications of Panentheism" - I'd love to buy that book. So when are you going to write it, Lindsay? What would its TOC look like?

I guess, in a way, I am writing it here. What I need is for someone to take what I have written and edit it. I am am not sure I have the patience, or skill, to write a book.