BrainMeta'   Connectomics'  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V  1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> World Appearance is but a Dream
Shawn
post Feb 08, 2003, 06:39 PM
Post #1


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1498
Joined: Jan 22, 2003
From: CA
Member No.: 9



Interesting excerpt from the Yoga Vasistha:

O'Rama, this house known as the body has not been made by anyone in fact! Dreams are real during the dream-state; even so the body is real when it is experienced as a real substance. The notion of 'I am this body' arises in relation to what is truly a piece of flesh with bones because of a mental predisposition; it is an illusion. Abandon this illusion.

There are thousands of such bodies which have been brought into being by your thought-force. When you are asleep and dreaming, you experience a body in the dream. Where does that body arise or exist?

'This is wealth.' 'This is body' and 'This is a nation' - all these are notions (conceptual thoughts), O Rama. Know this to be a long dream, or a long-standing hallucination, or day-dreaming or wishful thinking. When, by the grace of God or the Self (both are one and the same), you attain awakening, you will then see all this clearly.

I remarked that I was born of the mind of the Creator: even so the world arises in the mind as a notion. In fact, even the Creator is but a notion in the cosmic mind; the world-appearance too, is a notion in the mind.

If a man resolutely seeks the source of the notions, he realizes consciousness; otherwise he experiences the illusory world-appearance again and again. For by continually entertaining notions such as 'This is it', 'This is mine' and 'This is my world', they assume the appearance of substantiality.

The permanency of the world is also an illusion: in the dream-state, what is really a brief moment is experienced by the dreamer as a life-time. In a mirage only the illusory 'water' is seen and not the substratum: even so, in a state of ignorance one sees only the illusory world-appearance but not the substratum (the infinite consciousness).

However, when one has shed that ignorance, the illusory appearance vanishes. Even the man who is normally subject to fear is not afraid of an imaginary tiger; the wise man who knows tat this world is nothing but a notion or imagination is unafraid of anything. When one knows that the world is nothing but the appearance of one's Self (infinite consciousness), of whom need one be afraid? When one's vision is purified by inquiry, one's deluded understanding concerning the world vanishes.

When one realizes that death is inevitable to all, why will he grieve over the death of relatives or the approach of one's own end? When one realizes that everyone is sometimes prosperous and otherwise at other times, why will he be elated or depressed? When one sees that living beings appear and disappear like ripples on the surface of consciousness, where is the cause for sorrow? What is true is always true (what exists always exists), and what is unreal is ever unreal; where is the cause for sorrow?

Hence, one should not pin one's faith, hope and aspiration on that which is unreal; for such hope is bondage. O Rama, do thou live in this world without entertaining any hope. What has to be done has to be done, and what is inappropriate should be given up.

Live happily and playfully in this world without considerations of desirable and undesirable. The infinite consciousness alone exists everywhere at all times.

What appears to be is but an appearance. When the appearance is realized as appearance, that which is, is realized. Either realize 'I am not and these experiences are not mine' or know that 'I am everything': you will be free from the lure of world-appearance. Both these attitudes are good. You will be freed form attraction and aversion (raga-dvesa).

Whatever there is in the world, in the firmament and in heaven is attained by one who has destroyed the twin forces of attraction and aversion. Whatever the ignorant man does, prompted by these forces, leads him to instant sorrow. One who has not overcome these forces, even if he is learned in the scriptures is indeed pitiable and despicable.

O Rama, for your spiritual awakening I declare again and again that this world-appearance is like a long dream. Wake-up, wake-up. Behold the Self which shines like the sun.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lostcause
post May 07, 2003, 04:44 AM
Post #2


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 19
Joined: May 06, 2003
Member No.: 278



this is perhaps the most intressting theory of existence I have heard in avery long time. I really enloyed reading it and though I dont entirely agree with it I believe that it is indeed one of the infinite possibilities about our creation.

Good Work we really appreciate the effort you put into this site. ;D
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
joe
post May 08, 2003, 12:37 PM
Post #3


Unregistered









Yes it is interesting reading. What does it mean to you?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dan
post May 08, 2003, 03:51 PM
Post #4


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1922
Joined: May 01, 2003
From: Sri Danananda
Member No.: 96



but I like to read stuff like this to get a feel for how the masters grapple with the hard questions

the theme of 'locating the observor' is fascinating, the bread and butter of the meditative/eastern religions (IMO).  At first we think the answer is easy, but soon enough we start to strip away layer after layer of 'body' only to find more body.  Then comes the question "What am I, if not body? and if not body, then where?"  two answers, "you don't exist" or "you are the universe" (the 'you' here is the existential 'you', or 'Being').  Although "you are the universe" appears to be absurd, the answer "you don't exist" is patently absurd.  "I think, therefore I must be!"
8)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Shawn
post May 08, 2003, 04:23 PM
Post #5


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1498
Joined: Jan 22, 2003
From: CA
Member No.: 9



I'm glad this thread received this sort of attention because the Yoga Vasistha is truly a fascinating work that I would highly recommend to anyone.  I've read the 'Concise Yoga Vasistha' and let the ideas incubate for some time, and can say that this work ranks right alongside the Bhagavad Gita in terms of profundity and importance.  It's a much longer work than the Gita, and takes a long time to read and digest, but it's well worth it because it contains a storehouse of ideas and practical wisdom that will invariably widen your outlook on things and open your eyes (perhaps for some, their third eye).

Some quotes stand out to me from the passage above:

"...living beings appear and disappear like ripples on the surface of consciousness..."

"...the world is nothing but the appearance of one's Self (infinite consciousness)..."

"...infinite consciousness alone exists everywhere at all times..."


One of the basic teachings of the Yoga Vasistha is that everything (literally everything that exists) is Infinite Consciousness, and that what we perceive ourselves to be are but ripples on the surface of this Infinite Consciousness.  This is really quite profound, I think.   It's an idea, and more importantly, it's an "experience", which I whole-heartedly wish more people would understand and experience instead of living thru their lives in total ignorance of such an ennobling idea and experience.  In fact, I'm rather awestruck (and disheartened) by the fact that most people seem quite unconcerned by such spiritual/philosophical/existential matters and can get completely consumed and embroiled in the everyday vanities and empty hubbub of life, totally devoid of any sort of spiritual understanding/experience possessing any depth.

Btw, Dan, I think your response that "you are the universe appears to be absurd" is an interesting one.   Our individuality is an illusion.  There is only One, but we cannot experience this all of the time, and are lucky if we experience it at all.  It is like the cosmic experience in the Gita, when Arguna's spiritual eyes were opened and he beheld Krishna's cosmic form.  Those without the cosmic experience will think 'you are the universe' is absurd.  Those with the cosmic experience will see the truth in it.  I do not mean to be elitist by such statements as, "you must experience this or that cosmic experience to understand this or that truth".  Nonetheless, I was somewhat surprised by your response, and am curious why you think such an idea, that we are the universe, is absurd.  

namaste,
Shawn

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dan
post May 08, 2003, 04:30 PM
Post #6


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1922
Joined: May 01, 2003
From: Sri Danananda
Member No.: 96



I'm "speaking for the people", and they generally think that it is absurd

8)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Shawn
post May 08, 2003, 04:34 PM
Post #7


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1498
Joined: Jan 22, 2003
From: CA
Member No.: 9



hi Dan,
I thought that you might be, and it's a good thing to give them a voice.  I just wanted to make sure, though.   smile.gif

It's a remarkable idea, isn't it?  There are times when I stand in mute awe of it.  

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
joe
post May 08, 2003, 07:47 PM
Post #8


Unregistered









Dan: You speak for the people? I assume you have met all 6 billion+ in order to make such a statement and to have the intimate connection that you have to speak for all of them. You obviously don't speak for me or many of the ones I know who don't subscribe to your ideas.
I would think it would be more intelligent to speak for yourself rather than to project an idea of knowing when it comes to the consciousness that you are only pondering as an interesting Idea.
Shawn: Just because you don't have the experience of the inifinite stabilized as a constant experience hardly means it can't be done. Vasishtas Yoga is the teaching of establishing that awareness permanently, it is the teaching of expanding Union into Brahman. It has been done. It is only the ego that keeps the mind lost in its limitations and follows deceptive sensory experiences rather than the subtle realities that are always present. Expanding exalted consciousness or opening the 3rd eye may be entertaining to the mind but it hardly constitutes the subtle magnitude of dimensional realities or even the simple intuitive abilities that extend themselves in Union with Consciousness.
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi once said if you read Vasishtas Yoga 7 times you will become fully enlightened. But....
There is an important aspect of expanding consciousness that you may have overlooked on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, maybe you got a bad translation or passed over the importance of one of the major building blocks. Building on the awareness of the infinite first starts with recognition of it.

I have read some of your theories based on the expansion of mind using hallucinogenics. Like the exalted experiences of some of the subtler senses, experiences can be decieving. They impress the mind with new experiences like getting on a new ride at Disneyland. Many think this is the roadway to expansion or enlightenment. The infinite is very subtle and goes far deeper than the sensory experience.
There are many tools to bring the awareness into the subtle experience of the infinite "One" but the experiences change as you evolve and so the experience is not the anchor for the awareness. Trying to find it is an endless game of chasing your tail when trying to follow the habit of repeating experience. Like taking any drug your nervous system evolves and adapts and it takes more to achieve the same high. Bliss of the infinite is not a High and although it can feel or create a sensory experience, "IT" the experience, is not it.
Once you become familiar with the subtle it does not go away, in fact it has and always will be as close to you as the air around you. It is in you and around you and has never not been part of you, all of creation is built from it which is why the reality of the universe is you. Ignorance or duality is the ignoring of it, the distraction of the grosser sensory experiences. No drug will lead you to stabilizing it and in a drug induced state with the senses overloaded, the subtle awareness of the absolute gets lost in the chaos of the minds hallucinations.
There is a cowboy song that goes," Lookin for Love in all the wrong places," Like so many others that let the intellect get lost in its ability to impress itself and the Ego that fears its annihilation and loss of control, your own ideas will get in the way more often than not.
If you wish to stabilize your awareness and know the infinite Self it will go a lot easier and more quickly if you were to find someone who has done it to guide you to it and help you differentiate the reality of it and the illusion of the minds self created infinite. One never changes and the other changes with evolving ideas and experiences and is never stable.

Personally I never recommend to anyone reading Vasishtas Yoga without stabilizing the infinite awareness first other wise the Ego runs away with its own Ideas. It is possible to have an enlightened Ego, one that talks the talk. In fact the Ego is so subtle it can mimick the enlightened. Consciousness recognises Consciousness or Genius recognises Genius. Just as a Doctor would recognise someone who doesn't know their way around a patient or the medical field one who knows consciousness can easily recognise one who is stumbling around in their mind rather than stabilizing God within.
Your intent is admirable and you show more promise than most I have run across and your knowledge is impressive, but you will have to give all of it up to know the Self. Expanding the intellect is just the first step, I hope you don't waste too much time playing with the multitude of Ideas.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Shawn
post May 09, 2003, 02:52 AM
Post #9


God
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 1498
Joined: Jan 22, 2003
From: CA
Member No.: 9



hello Joe,

"Maharishi Mahesh Yogi once said if you read Vasistha's Yoga 7 times you will become fully enlightened."

But what is 'enlightenment'?  I don't doubt you have a ready answer for this, but I ask it nonetheless to underscore the fact that the Yoga Vasistha, like almost any literary work employing metaphorical devices, admits infinitely many interpretations.   A prime example of this is the Bible.   Who really knows what the Bible means when there are infinitely many different interpretations one can have for it's various stories and teachings?  Unless we are the actual writers of a literary work, it's unlikely we know the real meaning of the work.  In fact, some writers write with this in mind (i.e., that their writings are 'under-determined' with regard to their meaning and interpretation) and don't even know themselves what their works mean.

It's difficult to talk about subtle things, particularly things that we experience on the fringes of our consciousness but that we never translate into words, no doubt partly because there are no good words to describe such things.  But we should at least make an effort so as to be more precise in our language.  We can begin by defining what we mean by 'enlightenment' before using the term, unless it's commonly understood by all relevant people what's meant by the term.

QUOTE
I have read some of your theories based on the expansion of mind using hallucinogenics. Like the exalted experiences of some of the subtler senses, experiences can be decieving. They impress the mind with new experiences like getting on a new ride at Disneyland. Many think this is the roadway to expansion or enlightenment.


I'm glad you read my essay on "expanding consciousness"  (I've been meaning to update that essay to clarify the states of consciousness I'm talking about;  hopefully later today I can do this).   I do not think expanding consciousness via hallucinogens is "the road" to enlightenment.   First off, I would not recommend "hallucinogens", but might suggest "entheogens" in some instances, depending on the person, his mindset, and his circumstances.   I bring this up because hallucinogens are not the same as entheogens.
The term 'hallucinogens' highlights their ability to cause hallucinations and effect one's senses, whereas the term 'entheogen' emphasizes the 'god-inducing' aspect of the drug and experience, which are not necessarily one and the same.    Secondly, the path to enlightenment involves many factors, and to recommend the use of 'entheogens' without the proper mindset, training, and environmental/sensory setting would be foolish, counterproductive, and dangerous.   It's undeniable that some drugs enhance/expand consciousness and increase one's 'Being'.   There are many such 'tools' for expanding consciousness, not all of them drugs of course.  Nonetheless, the quest to expand consciousness and increase one's 'Being' is what I'm really interested in.  I do not think this is synonymous with 'Enlightenment'.   Oftentimes they go hand in hand (i.e., if you expand your consciousness and Being, then you will experience enlightenment).    But just as expanded states of consciousness and Being are all relative, so too is 'enlightenment'.   What one person regards as enlightenment, another may find not very enlightening at all.  Sometimes, this is because the 2nd person does not truly understand the 'enlightenment' of the 1st, but other times, it's because the 2nd person is spiritually superior to the 1st.   So what are we to make of this when we cannot agree on what constitutes 'enlightenment'?  Even if we give up on absolute notions of 'enlightenment', we still must confront the issue of how to determine 'spiritual superiority', for lack of a better word (personally, I do not really like what this term implies or the connotations that it has).

Perhaps it can be argued that part of 'enlightenment' involves doing away with the ego, but even this is highly questionable when considered in and of itself, because there are often times when 'normal' people become ego-less under rather ordinary conditions, but we don't refer to that as 'enlightenment'.

My point, I suppose, is that we must come to terms with relativistic notions of 'enlightenment' and stop using the term as if it had some absolute meaning.   We must do this simply because 'enlightenment' means different things to different people, depending on how spiritual or 'spiritually superior' they are.  I emphasize that I'm not trying to be elitist in any sense, and realize the negative consequences of using the term 'spiritually superior', not least of which is that any close-minded individual can terminate a discussion by invoking his 'spiritual superiority' and the lack of the ability of others to comprehend his spirituality or state of enlightenment.

QUOTE

knowledge is impressive, but you will have to give all of it up to know the Self. Expanding the intellect is just the first step, I hope you don't waste too much time playing with the multitude of Ideas.


are you really so certain about this, that experience of the Self precludes knowledge?  Or is this just your personal experience of such things?   If it's your personal experience, or even if it's been the personal experience of a great deal of mystics, then it still doesn't rule out the possibility that experience of the Self and knowledge can coexist.  Why?  Because states of consciousness are relative, and just because people haven't been able to experience certain states of consciousness, does not in any way imply that they can't be realized.

Even if I were to agree with you that most, perhaps all, experience of Self precludes knowledge (which I don't), I would still regard knowledge as very important because for me, knowledge is a tool, knowledge is power, knowledge is to be used for the purposes of expanding one's consciousness, transcendence, and becoming more than what one is now.   I would be interested if you expanded on your quote above.  What do you understand by knowing the Self'?  What is your experience with this?   How was it brought about?   How would you describe it, insomuch as words can describe such things?

I would also be interested, Joe, in hearing more about the important aspect of expanding consciousness that I may have overlooked in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.

namaste


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dan
post May 09, 2003, 03:37 AM
Post #10


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1922
Joined: May 01, 2003
From: Sri Danananda
Member No.: 96



QUOTE
Dan: You speak for the people? I assume you have met all 6 billion+ in order to make such a statement and to have the intimate connection that you have to speak for all of them.

and I assume that you have done all that stuff in order to prove that one must do all that stuff in order to speak for people?

QUOTE
You obviously don't speak for me or many of the ones I know who don't subscribe to your ideas.

congratulations, you've just discovered the meaning of the word 'generally'

QUOTE
I would think it would be more intelligent to speak for yourself rather than to project an idea of knowing when it comes to the consciousness that you are only pondering as an interesting Idea.

the irony in this statement is overwhelming  wink.gif

8)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
synchronox
post May 09, 2003, 05:40 AM
Post #11


Overlord
****

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Apr 26, 2003
Member No.: 461



This is a 'juicy' conversation.  
My view is that we are works in progress, the nexus between two worlds.  Unique creatures with necessarily short life times to enhance and intensify the learning process.

In order to visualize this draw an imaginary graph as one would to represent an energy spectrum.  In this graph draw a line down the middle to represent the speed of light boundary.  Anything to the left of this boundary is the waveform world, to the right, the solid world.
On the left are frequency domains whose frequency oscillations have not surpassed the speed of light in this relative domain.  Any frequency that has passed this speed of light barrier turns into a solid and comes under a new set of rules that govern this solid world.
Very similar to water with the temperature raised to 212 degrees.  It never stays in the water condition when this temperature is raised one fraction of a degree over the 'steam barrier' it turns to steam.
So life when regarded as energy waves is in a waveform condition until the speed of its carrier wave exceeds the speed of light, it then enters into the 'solidified' waveform world.
Each state has a set of compex rules and regulations that govern it.  To apply the rules and views of the solidified waveform world to the waveform world that is not solid is, simplistically to expect water to have the same characteristics as its gaseous form.  To investigate steam and how it operates using the rules of its liquid state is to be misled and confused.
This is what is happening in the investigations of consciousness and quantum electrodynamics.  We are trying to apply the rules of the physical solid world to those of the waveform world.  Both worlds are real, it is only our perceptions that are illusionary.
Does this metaphor work?  I think we are on the threshold of a new understanding if we abandon the old methods of viewing these two worlds from one perspective.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
joe
post May 09, 2003, 06:08 AM
Post #12


Unregistered









Dan: if you were less invested in your control you will see a lot more than you know.

Shawn, to respond to your post. The many interpretations that you talk about are true only in the limited world of the minds understanding of things.
A fully conscious person hears all of the many descriptions but does not hear the words. Any teaching is an enlivening of the heart.
I will give you an example. You establish an intimate relationship with a partner and you know that person so well you become attuned to them. One day that person walks into the room and has had an extremely bad day. Do you have to ask to know that the person has had a bad day or can you feel the person before the explaination comes. Between intimate couples this is quite common. Mostly we feel the extreme mood swings but what about the more subtle?
The One infinite named or unnamed has a presence. It is subtle and for the most part the waking state mind is unaware of it because it is attuned to the senses, the grosser senses attached to the illusiory programming of past impressions. All the things that are learned.
God cannot be contained in any form so what the mind learns through its experiences have to be given up for more.
What you can learn or interpret in so many ways only points a direction at the source but it cannot give you the source or fully contain its entirety. So in that respect what good would it be if some one gave you the tire to a car and none of the rest of it. No matter which part you have in interpretation, unlocking the puzzle of the infinite with so many pieces is time consuming on your own and if in many lifetimes you are successful in piecing the car together, then you can get in and drive it.
In reality, and this is even the way Vasishta describes enlightenment or the path, every action, every lifetime, every choice is part of the road to enlightenment, to the union of the absolute and the relative, where the Self is no longer bound to any illusion. The experiences of the self are contained within the Self past present and future. The way you and Dan describe it isn't even within the range of knowing. It is however in line with understanding of the concept and possibly having a few experiences to enliven the basic underlying principles of the idea.
Once the awareness of the absolute is anchored it strikes a resonance, like a tuning fork that is tuned to a certain frequency, when struck it causes all others at the same frequency to vibrate. All of Humanity, all of creation vibrates at this frequency and it has been called the OM. No matter what description or interpretation follows the experience, it resonates within. If you are attuned to it then there is no separation from any of it, It has tangibly and noticably become a part of you by your awareness and your every thought, feeling and action.
You don't have to be in the forest to hear the tree fall. You are the tree and you fall with it.
Any discussion of the reality of many different paths and interpretations are either based in the awareness of them all being the description of the same thing by experience in union or the mental projection in defense of ones own understanding and the maintaining of valid parts of the whole but is still separated or fragmented from the totality of all of the experiences and interpretations as one searches for confirmation to their "own" experince. No experience is separated from the whole, only ego separates the one into many and only ego defends the experience as part of the many that is the whole.
Discussions, words, paths of any description are in themselves tools to the Self realising the Self but knowing about a car and having ridden in it once or twice is not the same as getting behind the wheel and knowing the care with all its attributes and its quirks.
The same with expanding Consciousness it takes getting behind the wheel and giving it your full attention rather than talking about it to give you a feel for it. The more you do this the more it becomes second nature to yourself, or within the concept of enlightenment who you the personality are, becomes second nature to the primary One Self.
We can have this discussion all day but if your awarenes is not anchored in the awareness experiencing awareness or the knowing that this is all you in all parts of the conversation then it becomes a concept only within the mind. Its good to know or have the idea but knowledge of the mind needs to be expanded into know-ledge of the heart, you must live it and breathe it into every aspect of your being and it will not leave your attention when you are united with it.
This is the most important aspect of Patanjalis description of enlightenment. In freeing the mind from its learned illusions or definitions created in the ego and to understand and live in the awareness of Consciousness experiencing itself you first must know the absolute and then give it all of your attention. To choose for its reality and presence over all others that are fragmented and of it.
The ego is a name given to the awareness that can recognise itself but if it becomes the master rather than the servant then you have been cast from the garden of eden and have taken the bite of the apple from the tree of knowledge.
The return is quite simple but you will have to get over yourself first.
Complete surrender and service is the living of the holy spirit or God moving through manifestation. Anyone can at times step aside from themselves and allow pure spirit to move through them but to do it all the time is when one is established in enlightenment. God speaks in and thru everything but the ego filters the voice through its many filters of knowledge, stress and beliefs in its ideas of the world and the infinite. All paths, All ideas have to be surrendered back to the source to Be Brahman. It can't be done from any understanding or any collection of experiences that form another belief.
When one learns to listen to the voice of God and not the words and concepts then they can live in harmony and heaven is realized on earth.

Synchronox: That is a brilliant metaphor
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dan
post May 09, 2003, 06:25 AM
Post #13


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1922
Joined: May 01, 2003
From: Sri Danananda
Member No.: 96



I see all

8)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
FDk
post Nov 12, 2007, 09:50 AM
Post #14


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Member No.: 12194



QUOTE(Shawn @ Feb 08, 2003, 09:39 PM) *

The permanency of the world is also an illusion: in the dream-state, what is really a brief moment is experienced by the dreamer as a life-time. In a mirage only the illusory 'water' is seen and not the substratum: even so, in a state of ignorance one sees only the illusory world-appearance but not the substratum (the infinite consciousness).



is pain an illusion ? is my hunger and thirst an illusion?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Flex
post Nov 12, 2007, 12:45 PM
Post #15


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
From: Bay area CA
Member No.: 5877



I would say yes. With meditation, one can overcome pain.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
code buttons
post Nov 12, 2007, 06:23 PM
Post #16


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Member No.: 4556



QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 12, 2007, 12:45 PM) *

I would say yes. With meditation, one can overcome pain.

Easy thing to say when you're under 25 and, from what I know about you, entirely healthy. Is this a claim from your own experience, or is there literature available somewhere to prove your point? Not trying to detour from the thread subject, though, which allways gets my juices running. A fascinating subject indeed, as GodConsciousness points out. I find sound wisdom in almost everything in Joe's post. The amazing thing about ancient wisdom is that, modern science and all, we still can't prove it wrong.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
forgottenpresence
post Nov 13, 2007, 01:46 PM
Post #17


Overlord
****

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 289
Joined: Aug 20, 2007
Member No.: 12281



QUOTE
Any teaching is an enlivening of the heart.


What about when one is taught a lie? This sounds like illusion to me...
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Nov 13, 2007, 08:04 PM
Post #18


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4043
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Nov 13, 2007, 09:46 PM) *

QUOTE
Any teaching is an enlivening of the heart.


What about when one is taught a lie? This sounds like illusion to me...

Truth always resonates with the heart. Whether one listens or is capable of listening with the heart depends on whether one strengthens the resonance with truth or with illusions.
Either way, when someone gets involved with a teaching they are drawn to, they are following their best idea regardless of whether it is real or not.
Like taking mushrooms and thinking you are having an enlightened experience, people follow the shrouded impulses of the heart to refine the senses.
As Joseph Campbell said "follow your bliss." Being that the waking state mind wraps itself around what it identifies as pleasurable, spiritual and real, it is better than standing still and doing nothing at all.
Until the mind gives way to the heart and the bliss that one follows actually expands conscious awareness permanently, the desire of the heart is always leading toward union.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
forgottenpresence
post Nov 14, 2007, 10:42 AM
Post #19


Overlord
****

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 289
Joined: Aug 20, 2007
Member No.: 12281



QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 13, 2007, 08:04 PM) *

Truth always resonates with the heart. Whether one listens or is capable of listening with the heart depends on whether one strengthens the resonance with truth or with illusions.
Either way, when someone gets involved with a teaching they are drawn to, they are following their best idea regardless of whether it is real or not.
Like taking mushrooms and thinking you are having an enlightened experience, people follow the shrouded impulses of the heart to refine the senses.
As Joseph Campbell said "follow your bliss." Being that the waking state mind wraps itself around what it identifies as pleasurable, spiritual and real, it is better than standing still and doing nothing at all.
Until the mind gives way to the heart and the bliss that one follows actually expands conscious awareness permanently, the desire of the heart is always leading toward union.


One has to learn to listen from the heart before "any" teaching can enliven the heart. Those who listen with the mind may find themselves utterly confused unless some substance is taught. It is the teachers duty to delve to the root of their being and help them to realize that which is created by the mind, and that which is ever present unconditional bliss.

Saying "any" teaching is an enlivening of the heart is assuming everyone listens with the heart. This is not true. People will then go on and assume, from your teachings, that their higher heart center is evolving and such truth is being attained. The mind can create a hearty experience, yet it is temporal and definitely not permanent. When you say that any teaching is an enlivening of the heart you are projecting your perspective onto all other people. For some, only the mind will be enlivened through a teaching. It is up to the individual to activate the higher heart center, a teaching is only a catalyst.

A true teacher connects with his students and teaches them on a telepathic level through channeling cosmic consciousness and helping the student to become more receptive to these waves. It is not words the student is receiving, it is being on a level not recognizable by the mind.

Each one of us is a student and a teacher.

To be a student is to receive greater consciousness, to be a teacher is to channel consciousness.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Nov 14, 2007, 11:32 AM
Post #20


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



QUOTE(joesus)
Like taking mushrooms and thinking you are having an enlightened experience, people follow the shrouded impulses of the heart to refine the senses.
Another pot shot at the ancient sacrament and its associated thread in which no one has claimed that it brings enlightenment, only that it brings about an understanding of what the mystics have been saying. It allows someone whose not spiritual to become spiritual, or futhers their connection with nature. Stop, look and listen - a wise hedgehog once said...

If the world is a dream, then actual dreams and hallucinations are equally valid.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Nov 14, 2007, 06:30 PM
Post #21


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4043
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



QUOTE
One has to learn to listen from the heart before "any" teaching can enliven the heart. Those who listen with the mind may find themselves utterly confused unless some substance is taught. It is the teachers duty to delve to the root of their being and help them to realize that which is created by the mind, and that which is ever present unconditional bliss.

It is not the Teachers duty to delve anywhere in illusions of being or not being, unless the teacher is bound by illusions of duty.
The True Teacher only surrenders Ones self to God, because there is nothing else.
The Teacher is not responsible for the choices, or the comprehension of any student in any reality, nor does a Teacher seek to enliven ones heart.
If someone is drawn to a teaching because they whole heartedly believe in it, such as a devout Christian, or even an atheist, there is nothing in any language, or action, that will take their attention from that which they believe whole heartedly even if it is an illusion.
Whatever it is, it is what they are ready for, what they accept and that which they need to bring them closer thru contrast to something greater.
Just like mushrooms draw one closer to recognizing illusions of the mind.

QUOTE


Saying "any" teaching is an enlivening of the heart is assuming everyone listens with the heart.

No, your making an assumption that is what it means, because that is what it means to you and how you react to the statement.
QUOTE
People will then go on and assume, from your teachings, that their higher heart center is evolving and such truth is being attained.

People assume many things before coming to any teaching, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them from assuming. That is something they have to learn on their own.
Even with Guidance there is no guarantee they will learn to engage greater awareness and resonance with the Higher Self.
The proof of any True Teaching is in the experiences of stability and growth of the presence of the absolute One in every thought feeling and action.
QUOTE
The mind can create a hearty experience, yet it is temporal and definitely not permanent.

That is what I have been telling you all along about your knowledge of mushrooms, the fragmented experiences you have been having, and your knowledge of enlightenment.
QUOTE
When you say that any teaching is an enlivening of the heart you are projecting your perspective onto all other people.

No, once again you are second guessing what was said from your limited experience of reality.
QUOTE
For some, only the mind will be enlivened through a teaching. It is up to the individual to activate the higher heart center, a teaching is only a catalyst.

Now you are beginning to see the light.
QUOTE

A true teacher connects with his students and teaches them on a telepathic level through channeling cosmic consciousness and helping the student to become more receptive to these waves. It is not words the student is receiving, it is being on a level not recognizable by the mind.

Now your speaking from what you have read, not your experience of being a Teacher or knowing surrender.
Even Jesus would not waste his time trying to connect with his students at any level.
When the student is ready the Teacher appears, and the Teacher is always available at any level of awareness if the student is ready.
The resonance of God is a constant, it radiates from everything and everyone if one knows it.
The True Teacher stands solid in union with it, one foot in the relative and the other in the absolute, and is a perfect mirror for the absolute. The presence of a True master will seem to be the antichrist to the ego and God incarnate to to the heart.
It is the student that can bring the Teacher out, and use the Teacher to help bring him or herself to greater awareness. It is only thru this relationship that this can happen.
QUOTE

Each one of us is a student and a teacher.

Yes and no. In reality there is only One, and the new age thought streams perpetuated by ego often ignore the instability of beliefs and their illusions, and project them as absolute truths in duality when it comes to belief in spirituality, cognizance of God and enlightenment. The ego creates systems of self measure and identity with being student and Teacher, but never really achieves the reality of either, other than thru the projections of self created systems of identification.
The ego never asks for help, it is always the heart that surrenders itself to the greater voice of the supreme being even if the mind doesn't comprehend it.
But there is no surrender to the supreme being without first having an experience of it, only a surrendering to the idea of it. In that case the heart is enlivened by the impulses of what lies underneath everything and gets glimpses of it when the mind becomes still such as in a peak experience.
The heart then is recognized by the mind as a feeling or an inspiration shrouded by ideas of personal attachment.

In the case of the ego making a statement to being a Teacher there is no in depth, or conscious comprehension of that reality, only a personal idea.

QUOTE

To be a student is to receive greater consciousness, to be a teacher is to channel consciousness.

If the teacher has to channel greater consciousness, then the Teacher is still standing in illusions and passing truths thru filters of ones own ideas and limitations.
The True teacher has surrendered ones limited self to God, and as such becomes a doorway to the absolute, and a perfect mirror to reflect just where the student is at.
Consciousness is not relative and so it (consciousness) cannot be brought into the relative, only pointed to. The relative mind must surrender all relativity to the absolute. This is where the student must step beyond all concepts of duality to follow the Teacher.
The True Teacher can offer guidance to one who is ready to see thru the illusions of enlightened ego, to the absolute itself, where the student begins to immerse ones self in the absolute, dissolving illusions of belief put into place by the ego.
Sometimes the Teacher meets the student at their limited understanding to bring them to the threshold of their experiences and to nudge them a bit further, but it is not the Teachers responsibility to make the student understand, nor to be invested in any state of progress.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
forgottenpresence
post Nov 15, 2007, 02:04 AM
Post #22


Overlord
****

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 289
Joined: Aug 20, 2007
Member No.: 12281



QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 14, 2007, 06:30 PM) *
If someone is drawn to a teaching because they whole heartedly believe in it, such as a devout Christian, or even an atheist, there is nothing in any language, or action, that will take their attention from that which they believe whole heartedly even if it is an illusion. Whatever it is, it is what they are ready for, what they accept and that which they need to bring them closer thru contrast to something greater.


This is rubbish, I know so many devout Christians that believe so "whole-heartedly" (from your POV) in what they are taught and they are the most miserable people. They project themselves like they are beings of light, yet they are deep in misery. They are not close to something greater, they are swimming in their puddle of ignorant lies. And trust me, they are not getting closer to something greater until they start learning from themselves to become more aware.

This goes back to when you said "any" teaching is an enlivening of the heart. Please stop going off track with the subject of debate, I am aware of everything you are telling me and that is why I say you are preaching to me


QUOTE
Now you are beginning to see the light.


And I never saw the light before?

You are blind, sir. Do you see the light pouring out of my crown when I meditate? Do you feel my bliss? Of course only a puppet would believe what he sees on an internet forum.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Nov 15, 2007, 02:47 AM
Post #23


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



QUOTE(joesus)
QUOTE(fp)
The mind can create a hearty experience, yet it is temporal and definitely not permanent.

That is what I have been telling you all along about your knowledge of mushrooms, the fragmented experiences you have been having, and your knowledge of enlightenment.

QUOTE(fp)
When you say that any teaching is an enlivening of the heart you are projecting your perspective onto all other people.
No, once again you are second guessing what was said from your limited experience of reality.

I find your responses a little egocentric joesus. You are belittleing fp's experience and making your own out to be enlightened, yet neither you or anyone else has ever proven they are enlightened or even what it is.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Nov 15, 2007, 09:43 AM
Post #24


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4043
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



QUOTE
This is rubbish, I know so many devout Christians that believe so "whole-heartedly" (from your POV) in what they are taught and they are the most miserable people. They project themselves like they are beings of light, yet they are deep in misery. They are not close to something greater, they are swimming in their puddle of ignorant lies. And trust me, they are not getting closer to something greater until they start learning from themselves to become more aware.

As I said it is what they are ready for, what they accept and that which they need to bring them closer thru contrast to something greater.
Your description (They project themselves like they are beings of light, yet they are deep in misery) fits you tho.

QUOTE

This goes back to when you said "any" teaching is an enlivening of the heart. Please stop going off track with the subject of debate, I am aware of everything you are telling me and that is why I say you are preaching to me

I never preach, but within your own terms of interpretation, I will accept that you are preaching to me if you like.
Getting back to Joseph Campbells words, "follow your bliss," It is better to throw yourself into something than to do nothing at all.
Lets take a look at what you've said so far. If the ego is unaware of the heart in the first place then to follow the heart isn't possible.
In that respect there would be nothing that could enliven the heart because there is no heart recognition and therefore no enlivening.
Even a True Teaching would not enliven the heart without recognition of the heart that is buried under so much belief and ideas.
But this is just a partial truth, because even one who has been distracted by so many beliefs and has ignored the hearts true desire for union will at some point become still enough to be cognizant of desire for more than temporary experiences. In that respect one will take what they know and move towards the ideas that lead toward expansion even if not permanent and only temporary.
People use the term follow your heart very loosely in todays terminology and people always do the best that they can even if you decide they are miserable.

QUOTE

And I never saw the light before?

You are blind, sir. Do you see the light pouring out of my crown when I meditate? Do you feel my bliss?

I recognize where you are at when you are not meditating: judgment, comparison, self measurement, defensiveness.

QUOTE
Of course only a puppet would believe what he sees on an internet forum.

I'll leave you with this thought, what you focus on grows, and in your own words of personal reality:
QUOTE
We are both identifying with our projections.......

Take it into your personal experience and quit trying to make it about someone else.

QUOTE

I find your responses a little egocentric joesus. You are belittleing fp's experience and making your own out to be enlightened, yet neither you or anyone else has ever proven they are enlightened or even what it is.
I can say something and someone (like you) will take what I say and make it into what they believe.
In this case FP is working very hard at validating the personal experience in the face of what she recognizes as opposition to personal identity in projection.

As for my own experiences, I'm not aware of measuring my own experiences. There is nothing I can say that would mean anything to anyone other than what they might project.
Consciousness recognizes consciousness and ego recognizes ideas or past impressions and then projects. It would be pointless to make any claims to my state of consciousness, and I don't really care what anyone thinks about my state of consciousness, what I do is not dependent on what anyone thinks.

As For proving what enlightenment is, that is an impossibility. One can only point to it from being there and one can only recognize it from being there.
Anything else is only an idea.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
forgottenpresence
post Nov 16, 2007, 02:22 AM
Post #25


Overlord
****

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 289
Joined: Aug 20, 2007
Member No.: 12281



QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 15, 2007, 09:43 AM) *

I recognize where you are at when you are not meditating: judgment, comparison, self measurement, defensiveness.


And you are not a hypocrite?

You have judged my lifestyle, you have judged me by saying "I am beginning to see the light", implying that I never saw the light before.

And when I said this - "You are blind, sir. Do you see the light pouring out of my crown when I meditate? Do you feel my bliss? Of course only a puppet would believe what he sees on an internet forum.", of course you would go and assume I am comparing experiences. When in reality, you told me I have not seen light before, so I provided an example. Deluded and blind!

Your blindness emanates ever so brightly. Shine on!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Nov 16, 2007, 08:49 AM
Post #26


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4043
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



QUOTE

You have judged my lifestyle, you have judged me by saying "I am beginning to see the light", implying that I never saw the light before.

I don't judge people, but I do know how to make a judgment. And I'm implying that what you have seen in the way of the light is inadequate to create stability. What you have experienced you do not draw with you into every thought feeling and action. Your choices are without the stability of the light.

QUOTE
of course you would go and assume I am comparing experiences.

Not an assumption, just call me master of the obvious.

QUOTE

Your blindness emanates ever so brightly.

That'd be the defensive part I spoke of..
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Nov 16, 2007, 08:54 AM
Post #27


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



You have judged me based on the context of my posts on several occasions joesus.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Nov 16, 2007, 05:57 PM
Post #28


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4043
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Nov 16, 2007, 04:54 PM) *

You have judged me based on the context of my posts on several occasions joesus.
Nope.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Nov 17, 2007, 01:46 AM
Post #29


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



I'm not going to list the times, its sufficient to say you have dismissed me on many occassions because you attached my posts to a drug using hippy conspiracy theorist. I hope by now you've amended that illusion.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Nov 17, 2007, 08:33 AM
Post #30


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4043
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



I'm sure I said what I meant when I said it and I don't need to go back and amend anything.
Illusion is still illusion and Truth is still Truth.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th April 2017 - 05:31 PM


Home     |     About     |    Research     |    Forum     |    Feedback  


Copyright BrainMeta. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use  |  Last Modified Tue Jan 17 2006 12:39 am

Consciousness Expansion · Brain Mapping · Neural Circuits · Connectomics  ·  Neuroscience Forum  ·  Brain Maps Blog
 · Connectomics · Connectomics  ·  shawn mikula  ·  articles