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> Could we be human without art?
Hey Hey
post Dec 09, 2006, 09:17 AM
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Art in all of its contexts and forms.
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Joesus
post Dec 09, 2006, 10:24 AM
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You mean as an expression of free will?
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Hey Hey
post Dec 09, 2006, 10:50 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 09, 2006, 06:24 PM) *

You mean as an expression of free will?

not sure. computer art (visual, musical etc) and natural art (night sky, running water etc) can produce similar responses/emotions to human-generated art. they are not expressed by a free will (OK I know you will comment this theologically).

let me answer your question with yes and no.
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Joesus
post Dec 09, 2006, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 09, 2006, 06:50 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 09, 2006, 06:24 PM) *

You mean as an expression of free will?

not sure. computer art (visual, musical etc) and natural art (night sky, running water etc) can produce similar responses/emotions to human-generated art. they are not expressed by a free will (OK I know you will comment this theologically).

let me answer your question with yes and no.

I'd be interested in the Yes part of your answer
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Lindsay
post Dec 09, 2006, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 09, 2006, 09:17 AM) *

Art in all of its contexts and forms.
QUOTE
"All science begins as a philosophy and ends as an art." Will R. Durant, The Story of Philosophy.
Makes sense to me. In my opinion, religion, in all its forms, like theatre, is an art form. Not all theatre is great theatre. Some theatre is dull, boring, useless and even dangerous.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 09, 2006, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 09, 2006, 07:09 PM) *

In my opinion, religion, in all its forms, like theatre, is an art form.
Why is religion an art form?
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Lindsay
post Dec 09, 2006, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 09, 2006, 11:58 AM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 09, 2006, 07:09 PM) *

In my opinion, religion, in all its forms, like theatre, is an art form.
Why is religion an art form?
Think about it, HH: IMO, any art, in my opinion, is the practical application of philosophy and science to everyday life.

How say you, HH? Do you agree? Or, do you disagree? What is your definition of art?

PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION
This inspires me to ask: Does my life, and that of others, have any kind of meaning and purpose, ultimately?

I believe that it does.

Therefore, my religion is to make my life, intentionally, philosophically, scientifically and artistically, meaningful.

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Culture
post Dec 10, 2006, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 09, 2006, 03:04 PM) *

How say you, HH? Do you agree? Or, do you disagree? What is your definition of art?

PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION
This inspires me to ask: Does my life, and that of others, have any kind of meaning and purpose, ultimately?

I believe that it does.

Therefore, my religion is to make my life, intentionally, philosophically, scientifically and artistically, meaningful.



Would you lead your life differently if you knew that your existence was meaningless?
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Joesus
post Dec 10, 2006, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE
Therefore, my religion is to make my life, intentionally, philosophically, scientifically and artistically, meaningful.

From what you describe of your history Your religion is constantly changing, what gives you meaning has changed many times.

What you describe in your Opininon of Your religion is a search for meaning. What the search gives you is only temporary opinions.
It would seem your art is the expression of your belief and experience in the moment,... subject to change.
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project-2501
post Dec 10, 2006, 03:42 PM
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Define art? What is art?
Art would certainly pertain some evidence for 'free will'
Art is creativity, an expression?
Could life or existance itself in its multitude of forms and guises; flowers, insects, mammals, trees, sun, moon, water, fire be considered itself art?
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project-2501
post Dec 10, 2006, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 10, 2006, 05:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 09, 2006, 03:04 PM) *

How say you, HH? Do you agree? Or, do you disagree? What is your definition of art?

PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION
This inspires me to ask: Does my life, and that of others, have any kind of meaning and purpose, ultimately?

I believe that it does.

Therefore, my religion is to make my life, intentionally, philosophically, scientifically and artistically, meaningful.



Would you lead your life differently if you knew that your existence was meaningless?


Is art meaningless?
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Flex
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE(project-2501 @ Dec 10, 2006, 03:52 PM) *

QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 10, 2006, 05:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 09, 2006, 03:04 PM) *

How say you, HH? Do you agree? Or, do you disagree? What is your definition of art?

PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION
This inspires me to ask: Does my life, and that of others, have any kind of meaning and purpose, ultimately?

I believe that it does.

Therefore, my religion is to make my life, intentionally, philosophically, scientifically and artistically, meaningful.



Would you lead your life differently if you knew that your existence was meaningless?


Is art meaningless?


I believe that art, like life, is universaly meaningless. The meaning of art is within the individual, just as the meaning of life is.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:03 AM) *
The meaning of art is within the individual, just as the meaning of life is.
But beauty [sic] is in the eye of the beholder?
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Hey Hey
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:03 AM) *
The meaning of art is within the individual, just as the meaning of life is.
But beauty [sic] is in the eye of the beholder?
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maximus242
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:08 PM
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I say no, we could not be human without art.

Why? because to create art is to communicate and we would not be who we are today if not for that communication. People think that creating art only requires the right side of the brain... lies! Leonardo Da Vinci extensivly studied mathematical forumulas for how to make his art perfectly acurate. He preformed disections and made some of the most accurate anatomical drawings in the world.

Art has been with us since the dawn of human existance, it is one of the unique identifiers of human beings. We would not be human without it.
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Flex
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 10, 2006, 04:06 PM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:03 AM) *
The meaning of art is within the individual, just as the meaning of life is.
But beauty [sic] is in the eye of the beholder?


Well not so much anymore smile.gif Mass marketing has taken care of that one...

Beauty truely should be in the eye of the beholder, just as art is. What you know as great art is most likely what other have told you is great art, and by others, I mean "experts". Why should one listen to a connoiseur of fine wines to tell them what they like?
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Flex
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 10, 2006, 04:08 PM) *

I say no, we could not be human without art.

Why? because to create art is to communicate and we would not be who we are today if not for that communication.

Art has been with us since the dawn of human existance, it is one of the unique identifiers of human beings. We would not be human without it.


Well monkeys throw their crap to communiate--a beautiful art form.
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project-2501
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:03 AM) *

QUOTE(project-2501 @ Dec 10, 2006, 03:52 PM) *

QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 10, 2006, 05:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 09, 2006, 03:04 PM) *

How say you, HH? Do you agree? Or, do you disagree? What is your definition of art?

PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION
This inspires me to ask: Does my life, and that of others, have any kind of meaning and purpose, ultimately?

I believe that it does.

Therefore, my religion is to make my life, intentionally, philosophically, scientifically and artistically, meaningful.



Would you lead your life differently if you knew that your existence was meaningless?


Is art meaningless?


I believe that art, like life, is universaly meaningless. The meaning of art is within the individual, just as the meaning of life is.


Maybe meaninglessness and absolute meaning are one and the same thing.
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lucid_dream
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:27 PM
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what do you mean by absolute meaning? It's all relative
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Flex
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:32 PM
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I get what you are saying I think--I believe it juxtaposes my own position.

Your life has meaning because you give it meaning. Art has meaning because you make it have meaning. A painting is just a canvas and paint untill creative energy is added from the individal giving life and meaning to the meaningless. The absolute meaning would be what the individual makes of the painting--something with no universal meaning.
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project-2501
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:32 AM) *

I get what you are saying I think--I believe it juxtaposes my own position.

Your life has meaning because you give it meaning. Art has meaning because you make it have meaning. A painting is just a canvas and paint untill creative energy is added from the individal giving life and meaning to the meaningless. The absolute meaning would be what the individual makes of the painting--something with no universal meaning.


Exactly. If human life has meaning, then every action, object and individuation MUST have meaning as well, from the smallest insect to the largest whale.
Meaninglessness = absolute meaning.
Maybe meaning and purpose are different? Or maybe im just going mad smile.gif
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Flex
post Dec 10, 2006, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE(project-2501 @ Dec 10, 2006, 04:53 PM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:32 AM) *

I get what you are saying I think--I believe it juxtaposes my own position.

Your life has meaning because you give it meaning. Art has meaning because you make it have meaning. A painting is just a canvas and paint untill creative energy is added from the individal giving life and meaning to the meaningless. The absolute meaning would be what the individual makes of the painting--something with no universal meaning.


Exactly. If human life has meaning, then every action, object and individuation MUST have meaning as well, from the smallest insect to the largest whale.
Meaninglessness = absolute meaning.
Maybe meaning and purpose are different? Or maybe im just going mad smile.gif


I don't think that anyone has discovered some purpose to life yet--other than to reproduce and die for no apparent reason. I think thus far all we have is the artificial meaning we impose.
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Joesus
post Dec 10, 2006, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE
I don't think that anyone has discovered some purpose to life yet--other than to reproduce and die for no apparent reason. I think thus far all we have is the artificial meaning we impose.

If we being the "earthling" we, that can't see or experience beyond being an earthling or birth and death then obviously subject is defined by the identity of we. But that would be a very small idea considering the immensity of the universe and how we co-exist with it.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 11, 2006, 05:36 AM
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Relevant background:

http://www.percepp.demon.co.uk/pythagor.htm
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post Dec 11, 2006, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE(project-2501 @ Dec 10, 2006, 03:42 PM) *

Could life or existance itself in its multitude of forms and guises; flowers, insects, mammals, trees, sun, moon, water, fire be considered itself art?

Wouldn't that entail the existence an original artist? And who/what created that artist?
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post Dec 11, 2006, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 10, 2006, 06:01 PM) *

I don't think that anyone has discovered some purpose to life yet--other than to reproduce...

Reproduce, for the purpose of survival. That's the purpose of life, the purpuse of existence: Survival. So we can make the world better than it was when we got it. Denying this just shows that you're not aware of it yet, as Hey Hey put it in some other thread.
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post Dec 11, 2006, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 09, 2006, 09:17 AM) *

Art in all of its contexts and forms.

The beauty of art is that an artistic rendition is a self-contained, unquestionable truth. An artist is master of his own domain. Within this reality of theirs, he/she is God. Where else within the human experience can we claim this?
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Rick
post Dec 11, 2006, 11:27 AM
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One way to approach the question (could we be human without art) is to do a thought experiment about a society in which art did not exist. Try to imagine life without:

1. Literature. No journalistic art (no newspaper). No reply to this forum thread which no longer exists. No story-telling.

2. Music. TV advertisments will just be talk talk talk. No dancing either.

3. Fashion. Clothes will be purely functional (to hide embarassing body forms and to keep warm or protect from sunburn).

4. Painting and decoration. No brick-a-brack in houses, no conversation pieces, no makeup or cosmetics, no pleasing photographs on the walls. Houses will be painted only in the cheapest paint, whatever color that turns out to be.

5. No flower arranging, no gardens, no surfing. No model railroads, no hobbies, no bonsai, no suiseki. Only functional cars, no styling.

I can imagine such a society in which "people" communicate only their needs or commands, eat only for nourishment, fight only to defeat enemies, and procreate only because of unconsciou drives and sexual pleasure impulses.

Sounds like a world without free will, doesn't it? And beings without free will might not be human.
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maximus242
post Dec 11, 2006, 04:45 PM
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Sounds like it.
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Flex
post Dec 11, 2006, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 11, 2006, 11:27 AM) *

One way to approach the question (could we be human without art) is to do a thought experiment about a society in which art did not exist. Try to imagine life without:

1. Literature. No journalistic art (no newspaper). No reply to this forum thread which no longer exists. No story-telling.

2. Music. TV advertisments will just be talk talk talk. No dancing either.

3. Fashion. Clothes will be purely functional (to hide embarassing body forms and to keep warm or protect from sunburn).

4. Painting and decoration. No brick-a-brack in houses, no conversation pieces, no makeup or cosmetics, no pleasing photographs on the walls. Houses will be painted only in the cheapest paint, whatever color that turns out to be.

5. No flower arranging, no gardens, no surfing. No model railroads, no hobbies, no bonsai, no suiseki. Only functional cars, no styling.

I can imagine such a society in which "people" communicate only their needs or commands, eat only for nourishment, fight only to defeat enemies, and procreate only because of unconsciou drives and sexual pleasure impulses.

Sounds like a world without free will, doesn't it? And beings without free will might not be human.


Would you say that other animals have no free will? It seems that other animals live in the world you have discribed to me, but they should still in theory at least posess the same will as you or I. What will do they have if not free (reguardless of art)?

Wouldn't you say that the social influences on your life do not grant you "free" will? I am assuming you pay taxes, and your refusal to do so would result in punishment, possibly imprisonment--to me it doesn't seem like you truely have "free" will. I will bet that you have always paid your taxes and obeyed laws that you do not necessarily agree with.
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