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> Piracetam/choline: Changing my mood?
brotherjake
post Feb 02, 2008, 04:01 PM
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Hello all,
First, thank you to all who have posted with great information on this website. I've learned quite a lot from reading posts here, so thank you all.

Here's my question. Every time I take Piracetam or Choline, it changes my mood, regardless of dosage.
I recall reading that piracetam may increase depressive episodes if one is bipolar, but, to my knowledge, I'm not bipolar.

Basically, if I take Piracetam, a short while later I'll feel cognitively stimulated, but emotion (affect) can be best described is "dull" and negative. Also I turn serious, nothing is humorous and a complete lack of motivation or positive feelings. Same thing happens with choline. In fact, if I take them together it seems to have an even stronger effect to that end. This has happened consistently over the last 6 months I've taken piracetam or choline.

Any ideas on what's going on here? Is there anyway to prevent this? Does anyone have any recommendations for non-cholinergic nootropics?

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LifeMirage
post Feb 03, 2008, 01:23 AM
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QUOTE(brotherjake @ Feb 02, 2008, 06:01 PM) *
Hello all,
First, thank you to all who have posted with great information on this website. I've learned quite a lot from reading posts here, so thank you all.

Here's my question. Every time I take Piracetam or Choline, it changes my mood, regardless of dosage.
I recall reading that piracetam may increase depressive episodes if one is bipolar, but, to my knowledge, I'm not bipolar.

Basically, if I take Piracetam, a short while later I'll feel cognitively stimulated, but emotion (affect) can be best described is "dull" and negative. Also I turn serious, nothing is humorous and a complete lack of motivation or positive feelings. Same thing happens with choline. In fact, if I take them together it seems to have an even stronger effect to that end. This has happened consistently over the last 6 months I've taken piracetam or choline.

Any ideas on what's going on here? Is there anyway to prevent this? Does anyone have any recommendations for non-cholinergic nootropics?



I would highly recommend dropping any supplements and having a full mental exam to determine any possible conditions you may have. Certain disorders can be worsen by increased acetylcholine levels.
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adamk
post Jan 13, 2010, 07:55 AM
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Andrew Elliot served as an editor to an APA book about approach and avoidance motivation (2008). A chapter in the book discusses the acetylcholine and dopaminergic systems and their relation to avoidance and approach motivations respectively. Because the acetylcholine system tends to be more strongly associated with an avoidance motivation, supplements that make the acetylcholine system more efficient will probably make a person more vigilant. Vigilance is thought of as recognition of the presence or absence of negatives (error detection), and that is why it is associated with avoidance motivation (e.g., I am motivated to avoid negatives). Approach motivation (dopamine system) is more concerned with the presence or absence of positives, and this is the motivation we think of when we say we are motivated (I want to achieve X goal).
This is an oversimplification I am sure, and few people really know what exactly is going on here. But making the acetycholine system more efficient will still be useful for tasks where error detection is key.

Hope this helps and I'd love to hear others' insights here.







QUOTE(brotherjake @ Feb 02, 2008, 04:01 PM) *

Hello all,
First, thank you to all who have posted with great information on this website. I've learned quite a lot from reading posts here, so thank you all.

Here's my question. Every time I take Piracetam or Choline, it changes my mood, regardless of dosage.
I recall reading that piracetam may increase depressive episodes if one is bipolar, but, to my knowledge, I'm not bipolar.

Basically, if I take Piracetam, a short while later I'll feel cognitively stimulated, but emotion (affect) can be best described is "dull" and negative. Also I turn serious, nothing is humorous and a complete lack of motivation or positive feelings. Same thing happens with choline. In fact, if I take them together it seems to have an even stronger effect to that end. This has happened consistently over the last 6 months I've taken piracetam or choline.

Any ideas on what's going on here? Is there anyway to prevent this? Does anyone have any recommendations for non-cholinergic nootropics?

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magellan
post Jan 13, 2010, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE(adamk @ Jan 13, 2010, 10:55 AM) *

Andrew Elliot served as an editor to an APA book about approach and avoidance motivation (2008). A chapter in the book discusses the acetylcholine and dopaminergic systems and their relation to avoidance and approach motivations respectively. Because the acetylcholine system tends to be more strongly associated with an avoidance motivation, supplements that make the acetylcholine system more efficient will probably make a person more vigilant. Vigilance is thought of as recognition of the presence or absence of negatives (error detection), and that is why it is associated with avoidance motivation (e.g., I am motivated to avoid negatives). Approach motivation (dopamine system) is more concerned with the presence or absence of positives, and this is the motivation we think of when we say we are motivated (I want to achieve X goal).
This is an oversimplification I am sure, and few people really know what exactly is going on here. But making the acetycholine system more efficient will still be useful for tasks where error detection is key.

Hope this helps and I'd love to hear others' insights here.


Very good information
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Net Runner Overdose
post Jan 27, 2010, 01:51 PM
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1 hour ago I took 400 mg of piracetam + 250 mg of DMAE. I feel excellent. there is no depressive state of mind, no dullness. I m in a good mood for work.
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pula
post Feb 23, 2010, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE(Net Runner Overdose @ Jan 27, 2010, 01:51 PM) *

1 hour ago I took 400 mg of piracetam + 250 mg of DMAE. I feel excellent. there is no depressive state of mind, no dullness. I m in a good mood for work.

I took piracetam for a few months
The effects are devasteting
I feel like I have cement in my head
My concentration droped dramatically and, what is worst, my memory, which used to be my precious assett,
has big holes
My learning capacity plumbered
Does anyone know how to take piracetam away from my system, some kind of antidot
For now I take vitamin B6 It does diminish the negative effects a little
The funny thing is that , when I drink alcohol, firstly I am now more resilient (I used to get almost drunk from a beer) and I actually think clearly
I guess because of the high level of sugar induced by alcohol
BTW, when I drink Coca Cola(like 2 liters -sorry, I am from Europe) I actually feel good
But the damn thing is still in my head I can actually feel it
I have zones on my brain which are like full of concrete
Anyone knows an antidot

To be very clear : I did not take piracetam for ten years now, and it is still in my head !!!!!!!
PLEASE
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kagaos
post Feb 24, 2010, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE(pula @ Feb 23, 2010, 11:18 AM) *

QUOTE(Net Runner Overdose @ Jan 27, 2010, 01:51 PM) *

1 hour ago I took 400 mg of piracetam + 250 mg of DMAE. I feel excellent. there is no depressive state of mind, no dullness. I m in a good mood for work.

I took piracetam for a few months
The effects are devasteting
I feel like I have cement in my head
My concentration droped dramatically and, what is worst, my memory, which used to be my precious assett,
has big holes
My learning capacity plumbered
Does anyone know how to take piracetam away from my system, some kind of antidot
For now I take vitamin B6 It does diminish the negative effects a little
The funny thing is that , when I drink alcohol, firstly I am now more resilient (I used to get almost drunk from a beer) and I actually think clearly
I guess because of the high level of sugar induced by alcohol
BTW, when I drink Coca Cola(like 2 liters -sorry, I am from Europe) I actually feel good
But the damn thing is still in my head I can actually feel it
I have zones on my brain which are like full of concrete
Anyone knows an antidot

To be very clear : I did not take piracetam for ten years now, and it is still in my head !!!!!!!
PLEASE

Firstly, I can guarantee you that the piracetam is no longer in your system. Nor any of it's metabolites. However, the effects caused by the piracetam may be present and I assume that is what you are referring to.
I am going to assume that you took it with adequate choline, and that you used it to improve your studies, rather than just for "brain enhancement" while watching TV or something along those lines. In other words I am going to assume you challenged yourself mentally while on piracetam.
That said, there is no anti-dote for effects caused by piracetam.
Also, it may be that you have some sort of deficiency of some neuro-transmitter, perhaps, GABA. Alcohol increases the life and production of GABA in the brain which may be correcting the imbalance you feel. Piracetam, on the other hand, being (at least to some extent) a stimulant would decrease GABA levels and exacerbate the pre-existing condition. This would lead you to become less concentrated, have reduced memory capacity, and lack in motivation.

Solution? Go to the doc, get yourself checked out. And/or grab some GABA, phenibut, or picamilon and see if that doesn't help your condition.
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pula
post Feb 25, 2010, 01:56 AM
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Firstly, I can guarantee you that the piracetam is no longer in your system. Nor any of it's metabolites. However, the effects caused by the piracetam may be present and I assume that is what you are referring to.
I am going to assume that you took it with adequate choline, and that you used it to improve your studies, rather than just for "brain enhancement" while watching TV or something along those lines. In other words I am going to assume you challenged yourself mentally while on piracetam.
That said, there is no anti-dote for effects caused by piracetam.
Also, it may be that you have some sort of deficiency of some neuro-transmitter, perhaps, GABA. Alcohol increases the life and production of GABA in the brain which may be correcting the imbalance you feel. Piracetam, on the other hand, being (at least to some extent) a stimulant would decrease GABA levels and exacerbate the pre-existing condition. This would lead you to become less concentrated, have reduced memory capacity, and lack in motivation.

Solution? Go to the doc, get yourself checked out. And/or grab some GABA, phenibut, or picamilon and see if that doesn't help your condition.
[/quote]
Let me add some detail
Between the effects that piracetam caused were
-dry mouth
-constant drying of lips
These effects are still present today(less dry mouth but you should see my lips...)
Normally, a man has a brain, he knows that but he is not aware of that, meaning that it doesn't feel it
I have regions on my brain that don't hurt but are somehow stimulated or something, the ideea beeing that I am aware of them
These regions are not stable, they are moving, especially when I make a really hot bath
The point is that I really know I have something in my brain because I can actually feel it
And that something is affecting my brain and consequentily my intelectual performance and mood
Thanks for your advise

I will try to do that
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cheekyleopard
post Feb 25, 2010, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE(pula @ Feb 23, 2010, 11:18 AM) *

QUOTE(Net Runner Overdose @ Jan 27, 2010, 01:51 PM) *

1 hour ago I took 400 mg of piracetam + 250 mg of DMAE. I feel excellent. there is no depressive state of mind, no dullness. I m in a good mood for work.

I took piracetam for a few months
The effects are devasteting
I feel like I have cement in my head
My concentration droped dramatically and, what is worst, my memory, which used to be my precious assett,
has big holes
My learning capacity plumbered
Does anyone know how to take piracetam away from my system, some kind of antidot
For now I take vitamin B6 It does diminish the negative effects a little
The funny thing is that , when I drink alcohol, firstly I am now more resilient (I used to get almost drunk from a beer) and I actually think clearly
I guess because of the high level of sugar induced by alcohol
BTW, when I drink Coca Cola(like 2 liters -sorry, I am from Europe) I actually feel good
But the damn thing is still in my head I can actually feel it
I have zones on my brain which are like full of concrete
Anyone knows an antidot

To be very clear : I did not take piracetam for ten years now, and it is still in my head !!!!!!!
PLEASE



Piracetam increases communication between hemispehres, so helps integrate memories in my opinion. (like traumtic repressed memory).
If the piracetam you got was ok, i personally doubt that its done you any harm on an organic level.
Maybe it awoken an under-lying physcological problem - like repressed memories, and now your trying to reverse it, which is impossible.

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pula
post Feb 25, 2010, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE(cheekyleopard @ Feb 25, 2010, 02:17 AM) *



Piracetam increases communication between hemispehres, so helps integrate memories in my opinion. (like traumtic repressed memory).
If the piracetam you got was ok, i personally doubt that its done you any harm on an organic level.
Maybe it awoken an under-lying physcological problem - like repressed memories, and now your trying to reverse it, which is impossible.


If that is your truely opinion, I musy say, I am sorry for you
Actually, I am more sorry for your patients
God help them !!!!
There is nothing physichological, just physiological !!!
You are right in one aspect
The most intense region of "cement" ids in the upper portion of head , where the two emisphere join
However, that is not the biggest problem
The real problem is that there are regions on the right and left side, on the rear of my head, which seem to really affect my inteligence
Just so you know, before I took piracetam, I scored 180 points at an Iq test, and I was told it was pretty high
Regarding repressed memories, I don;t have such things
I had a fantastic childhood, nobody touched me , if you know what I mean
I am an exasperantly positive ,optimistic person and at perties I am , what is known as "the soul of the party"
Please do not take me with your psychological bullshit, because it is not the case
I have a physiological condition as a result of piracetam
I have seen many prospects for drugs saying something along the lines "In very rare cases ot was observed that ..."
Please consider me avery,very rare case
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pivot
post Feb 25, 2010, 12:20 PM
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@pula

to me your condition sounds like schizophrenia
you should consult a medical doctor
i would write more but i am not english speaking and it ver hard for me to communicate medical matters through a different language
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brotherjake
post Feb 25, 2010, 12:32 PM
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Hi all,

Very interesting and informative replies to this post! I'm the original poster, and wanted to follow up. I took Lifemirage's advice. Long story short, found out that I have a.d.d and dysthymic disorder. I've read plenty on the debate about a.d.d., and don't care to engage on a debate as to its existence. I would, however, like to say thanks to Lifemirage for his advice.

I'm taking adderal and I haven't taken Piracetam since then, as I don't know if there would be potential interactions, and I certainly don't want a repeat of feeling down!

Anyway, thanks, Lifemirage, for your down-to-earth and practical advice!
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cheekyleopard
post Feb 25, 2010, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE(pula @ Feb 25, 2010, 12:11 PM) *

QUOTE(cheekyleopard @ Feb 25, 2010, 02:17 AM) *



Piracetam increases communication between hemispehres, so helps integrate memories in my opinion. (like traumtic repressed memory).
If the piracetam you got was ok, i personally doubt that its done you any harm on an organic level.
Maybe it awoken an under-lying physcological problem - like repressed memories, and now your trying to reverse it, which is impossible.


If that is your truely opinion, I musy say, I am sorry for you
Actually, I am more sorry for your patients
God help them !!!!
There is nothing physichological, just physiological !!!
You are right in one aspect
The most intense region of "cement" ids in the upper portion of head , where the two emisphere join
However, that is not the biggest problem
The real problem is that there are regions on the right and left side, on the rear of my head, which seem to really affect my inteligence
Just so you know, before I took piracetam, I scored 180 points at an Iq test, and I was told it was pretty high
Regarding repressed memories, I don;t have such things
I had a fantastic childhood, nobody touched me , if you know what I mean
I am an exasperantly positive ,optimistic person and at perties I am , what is known as "the soul of the party"
Please do not take me with your psychological bullshit, because it is not the case
I have a physiological condition as a result of piracetam
I have seen many prospects for drugs saying something along the lines "In very rare cases ot was observed that ..."
Please consider me avery,very rare case



I didnt say you were abused - thats jumping to massive conclusions!!!
People can have allsorts of trauma in their life that they repress at diff times - deaths, war etc etc.
ALso - im joe bloggs off the street, im no doctor - so please dont read too much into my reply.
Was just an angle thats all. I was talking about trauma, not specifically childhood abuse.
What i do know is that Piracetam is a pretty harmless substance.
I know someone who had 30G of the stuff a day at one time, for quite a while aswell.
Didnt mean to offend you in the slightest, and i hope you find the answers you are looking for.
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pula
post Feb 26, 2010, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE(pivot @ Feb 25, 2010, 12:20 PM) *

@pula

to me your condition sounds like schizophrenia
you should consult a medical doctor
i would write more but i am not english speaking and it ver hard for me to communicate medical matters through a different language

Could you please elaborate a little
You can write in your language
I will use Google Translate
Going to a doctor is not an easy option
I have a job of public importance
Schizofrenia would mean end of my career
On the other hand, I am able to do my job perfectly
I just got promoted recently
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pivot
post Feb 26, 2010, 08:52 AM
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first of all:
I am NOT a medical doctor

i just read SOME things about schizophrenia and your case just sounded familiar to the things i read
for example the paranoid feeling of something stucked in your head

go see a medical doctor

there will be no problem with the public
because no doctor is allowed to say ANYTHING from your case to ANY other person in the whole world
except from you

please keep in mind that i have no medical experience at all and i just wrote what came to my mind when i read your posts

so please for your own security
go and see a doctor
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VVenus
post Jun 19, 2010, 08:31 PM
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I read in a research article on acetylcholine and mood that acetylcholine (which choline promotes) has been shown to make depressed patients more depressed, bipolar patients in mania to switch to depression and people with personality disorders to become depressed. I agree with the person sharing the information on 'focus' and 'goal orientation' so if you are mentally healthy it may to do you what ritalin does to ADHD people, make you focused (I think of med students, you just do what you gotta do, not much personality), but if you have some issues you may fall towards the depressive end. There are always trade offs with medications and changing a behavior or state.
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pula
post Jun 30, 2010, 10:48 AM
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I took piracetam without any kind of choline, back in 1997
My medic did not know that you should take it with some source of choline
It seems that because of lack of choline, it did not metabolize, but instead added up in my brain
You will say it is impossible, just trust me, that is exactly what happened
I now realize that those "cement" areas in my brain are actually extremelly excited areas, full of piracetam
Yes, they are at the edges of the right and left emispheres but also at the edges on the rear of the head - I don't recollect the names of the respective brain parts
I started to take GABA, with a possitive effect. It really calmed down the effects of piracetam
Then I took lechitine
Just by itself did not do much good
But taking lechitine and doing long walks resulted in an excelent mood, no more cement !
Then I also started to take Alpha GPC
By itself doesn't have a very intense effect
But combined with multivitamins the effects are solid
I am much better, but there is still cement, although less intense
I guess it will take some time
But I am pretty sure I am on the right path
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Insum
post Jul 01, 2010, 05:32 PM
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Piracetam taken along with choline, had no real effect on me, none that was really recognizable..

Is it possible some people are non-responders?

I generally work a lot between hemispheres, as my job (and my person, as long as I can remember) have always worked back and forth from technical to creative aspects. I have education in engineering/mathematics and also in visual design at an advanced level. Perhaps it has no effect because I am already efficient in this way? Or am I just a non-responder?
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pula
post Jul 05, 2010, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE(Insum @ Jul 01, 2010, 05:32 PM) *

Piracetam taken along with choline, had no real effect on me, none that was really recognizable..

Is it possible some people are non-responders?

I generally work a lot between hemispheres, as my job (and my person, as long as I can remember) have always worked back and forth from technical to creative aspects. I have education in engineering/mathematics and also in visual design at an advanced level. Perhaps it has no effect because I am already efficient in this way? Or am I just a non-responder?


Piracetam is an artificial substance and the organism doesn't know at first what to do with it
Because of this, you must start with attack doses, that is doses much bigger than regular ones
At least, this is what I've read on another site
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GodConsciousness
post Jul 05, 2010, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE(Insum @ Jul 01, 2010, 09:32 PM) *

Piracetam taken along with choline, had no real effect on me, none that was really recognizable..

Is it possible some people are non-responders?

I generally work a lot between hemispheres, as my job (and my person, as long as I can remember) have always worked back and forth from technical to creative aspects. I have education in engineering/mathematics and also in visual design at an advanced level. Perhaps it has no effect because I am already efficient in this way? Or am I just a non-responder?


How long did you take them?
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pula
post Jul 27, 2010, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Jul 05, 2010, 09:50 AM) *

QUOTE(Insum @ Jul 01, 2010, 09:32 PM) *

Piracetam taken along with choline, had no real effect on me, none that was really recognizable..

Is it possible some people are non-responders?

I generally work a lot between hemispheres, as my job (and my person, as long as I can remember) have always worked back and forth from technical to creative aspects. I have education in engineering/mathematics and also in visual design at an advanced level. Perhaps it has no effect because I am already efficient in this way? Or am I just a non-responder?


How long did you take them?


GodConsciousness, on your site you sell
Bulk Alpha GPC 50% Choline (choline alfoscerate) .
What does that mean 50% Choline ?
Right now I am taking Alpha GPC from NowFoods, which is very effective
Your product is weaker, if it has 50% Choline only ?
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GodConsciousness
post Jul 27, 2010, 10:46 AM
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It's unlikely that the Now Foods brand is over 50% choline. Unfortunately, levels of purity are often not disclosed on product labels. I have seen this especially with Alpha GPC and Huperzine A products, but the issue also comes up with many tablets. Virtually all tablets contain binders that are not fully disclosed on product labels. Binders may be listed as additional ingredients but not what % of the tablet is binder. It essentially means that it's a compound. Alpha GPC is fairly expensive and even more so at higher levels of purity. I am considering offering a 98% Alpha GPC at Cerebral Health in the near future.
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reich42
post Jul 28, 2010, 06:59 AM
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It is all so confusing, I just started taking Piracetam, Aniracetam, CDP Choline, and ALCAR, and I have noticed slight improvement on mental alertness, nothing too powerful. There is a definite connection to emotions, I'm not sure if nootropics make them better or worse.
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GodConsciousness
post Jul 28, 2010, 07:03 AM
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Give it a few weeks before making any definitive assessments but the racetams can effect emotions.
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cheekyleopard
post Jul 30, 2010, 06:50 AM
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Now foods Alpha GPC is over 99% purity. When it says theres 300mg in a capsule, its 300mg elemental. Its then mixed with a filler.

If you emptied the capsule you would have about 6oomg of powder, half of it a filler.
So 1 tub (60 caps) of Now foods is giving you 18 grammes of alpha gpc (over 99% purity).

The source naturals and Jarrows brands are exactually the same. All 3 are good quality and worth trying.

NooTropics sites sell the 50% stuff un-capped. So 300mg = 150mg.
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GodConsciousness
post Jul 30, 2010, 07:29 AM
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I would be highly surprised if the Now Foods Alpha GPC is over 99% purity. I just met with an Alpha GPC manufacturer yesterday and the highest purity Alpha GPC that I am aware of manufactured anywhere in the world is 98%. Do you have a COA? What is the filler they are using?
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cheekyleopard
post Jul 30, 2010, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Jul 30, 2010, 07:29 AM) *

I would be highly surprised if the Now Foods Alpha GPC is over 99% purity. I just met with an Alpha GPC manufacturer yesterday and the highest purity Alpha GPC that I am aware of manufactured anywhere in the world is 98%. Do you have a COA? What is the filler they are using?



I phoned all 3 companies up and they all told me the same thing. Maybe it was 98% - but 300mg of the product is 98% plus alpha gpc. And the other 300mg is filler - not sure what they all use.
Empty a capsule of Now foods, Source, or jarrow alpha gpc and you will get over 600mg of powder, so they aint lying!
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GodConsciousness
post Jul 30, 2010, 11:31 PM
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Perhaps we're talking semantics. If each capsule is 50% Alpha GPC and 50% "filler", then we are basically talking about the same thing. My point is that there is pure Alpha GPC without any "fillers".
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cheekyleopard
post Jul 31, 2010, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Jul 30, 2010, 11:31 PM) *

Perhaps we're talking semantics. If each capsule is 50% Alpha GPC and 50% "filler", then we are basically talking about the same thing. My point is that there is pure Alpha GPC without any "fillers".



Yea i see. Then it is 50% alpha gpc then.
But its 50% of 600mg per capsule.
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