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> Re: Creating Understanding - Abortion
Shawn
post Feb 17, 2003, 08:28 PM
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I'm for abortion for all the reasons you stated, Peta.  I feel strongly about stem cell research, and I regard it as a pity that the U.S. is now falling behind in this important area because of the influence of irrational religious fanatics.   Also, in the end, I think it's ultimately the parents decision on whether to have the baby or not.  If there's disagreement between the parents, I think the woman should usually, but not always, have the final say (since it's her body after all).  About the claim of murder, I don't accept it any more than I accept that pulling out some of my hairs amounts to murder of hair follicles (which are living cells after all, very similar to an embryo), or that stepping on a snail amounts to murder.  Consequently, I support the production of embryos for the purposes of stem cell research.  To be more forthright about things, I don't feel the least bit saddened by all of these abortions precisely because the embryo is not a sentient being like it becomes after birth.  Why feel sad for the death of something that's never been conscious, and which Nature has and readily produces in abundance?  
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EyeKandi
post Feb 18, 2003, 01:39 PM
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I have to agree with both statements above. ... will write more later
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Shawn
post Feb 18, 2003, 07:42 PM
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hi Peta,

clearly no-one remembers when they were a fetus.  However, there's considerable evidence that brain activity begins before birth, in late fetal development, during the third trimester.  And so I don't see any moral problem whatsoever with aborting a fetus before the third trimester since there's really no chance that the fetus has ever experienced consciousness, and hence aborting it would amount to killing a lump of non-sentient cells, similar in many respects to killing a snail or a robot.    Surely no-one (or at least most people) would feel bad about killing a snail or robot, so why would anyone feel bad about killing a lump of cells that's never experienced consciousness, which is really all a fetus is before third trimester?  And furthermore, fetuses are in abundance and Nature readily produces more.  It's not like there's some fetus shortage and we must conserve fetuses.  

Now, aborting a third-trimester fetus is different though.  In this case, we have brain activity, and so we must admit the possibility that the fetus is conscious, and hence killing it could amount to killing a sentient life-form, which I think most people would have a problem with.  Granted, people can't remember when they were a third-trimester fetus, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of consciousness since there's brain activity.  It's very possible that third-trimester fetuses are conscious to some extent, even if they can't remember any of the experience.

Thus, I think there's a genuine moral problem with aborting third trimester fetuses because of the possibility that they're sentient.  And so I guess that's the short answer to your question, Peta:  I think I would draw the line for the vast majority of people at the beginning of the third trimester.  Of course, there would be exceptions.  Specifically, if we're talking about exceptional people conducting promising research that could benefit our entire race, then I wouldn't draw any lines.

take care,
Shawn
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lover_with_wingz
post Feb 20, 2003, 12:44 PM
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ohmy.gif wow! I sparked a crossfire on this one! I am sorry i wish I could agree with your statements but I feel differently I do however respect all your opinions!  as I hope you will all respect mine though after this some may hate me! ??? Shawn I don't agree with you stating that a person is nothing more than a lump of cells! If that was the case why would a person go and get pregnant if youw as going to to refer to her unborn baby as a lump of nothing more than a lump of cells we have in abundance! I think your statements on this were alittle harsh cold and unfeeling but I RESPECT you as a person and the right to have certain views on this topic. I think NO LESS pf you at all! YOU are intitled to your own opinion This as Peta said is a curly topic! People have expteme views on both ends of the spectrum. No we don't have a shortage of fetuses but does that make abortion acceptable because we are not needing to conserve fetuses. I don't think so I think a decision such as this just not be taken so lightly! I HAVE VERY STRONG believes that birth begins at conception even if the fetus is developed we all know what will come of the fetus and should treat it as such a human being REGARDLESS!!! I am sorry this topic is very hard for me because if I was to get pregnant I would feel blessed and I would never consider the fetus as a non exsitant living organism!!! I was told that because of the disease I have I may not be able to bare children so maybe this has an influence on my strong position.

I strongly disagree on abortion as a form of birth control if two people are responsible enough to have sex they should be responsible enough to accept the responsibilities of what goes along with having sex and that is the possibility of becoming pregnant. There are other forms of birth control and the best one is abstitence! Peta yes i feel it would be the girls fault unless she was forced to have sex against her own will or judgement. Sex should never be taken lightly and a human life should not be diregarded as disposable whenever it becomes inconvient to have a child! If a person is raped then maybe an abortion would prespect a new meaning but to often enough rape is never discussed when it comes to abortion! It always is said to be the choice of the mothers just as it was the choice of both partners to have sex! It takes two to tangle and eaither partner should have equal say to what can be done for crying out loud adoption I see as a better arternative to abortion if you don't want the child give it up but don't kill it before he or she gets a chance to exist. I am sorry if I offended anyone this is a strong topic Peta and I thank you for posted about this I hope it continues to spark debate! I am sorry to Shawn and others again I meant no disrespect! I could go on for hours how I feel but I think it be best if I shut up now before I lose all respect from all of you!
                                                               Love always,
                                                       Chrissy
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Tabitha
post Feb 20, 2003, 02:21 PM
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Hi, Peta.

This is an issue that I have hard feelings about.  For one thing, I don't think you can ever be truly sure what you're opinion on this is until you are faced with the decision yourself.  I always held the idea that we needed to protect the right to choose but could never actually do it myself.  Then, when I was in high school, I was faced with this very dilema.  Having the baby would have tied me- for life- to a man who was destructive for me & himself and I didn't want to put a child in that position.  I feel, even today, that I made the correct decision for me, the father and the fetus.  The circumstances are very private, so please don't ask me to go into more detail.  

To address the particular question that you answered about young girls being coerced into having sex, this does happen but it still becomes a very personal decision wherein many aspects of the situation have to be carefully weighed.

I don't believe that anyone really uses "abortion as birth control".  Those who have gone through the experience know that it is expesive, fiscally and emotionally, and that clinics impose waiting periods and counseling as well as giving access to organizations that can provide alternatives if that is what you choose to do.  

I will say this last thing, not to you but just because I feel compelled to address it any time the debate comes up:  The choice is always the woman's and hers alone.  Not the father's, not the doctor's and not the lawmakers'.  Ethically, I feel a woman is required to discuss her plans with the father & medically I feel she should discuss the risks with her private physician as well as the provider who will do the procedure.  The father has the right to block her decision if AND ONLY IF he is willing to allow the mother to relinquish all parental rights and responsibilities to the child and raise it alone.  The same caveat holds for women who want to have a child that the father does not want.  If you want to force another person to bend to your will, you must be willing to take full legal responsibility.  You will find that very few men who profess to be anti-abortion will accept this caveat.

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Tabitha
post Feb 20, 2003, 02:33 PM
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Chrissy said "Shawn I don't agree with you stating that a person is nothing more than a lump of cells! If that was the case why would a person go and get pregnant if youw as going to to refer to her unborn baby as a lump of nothing more than a lump of cells we have in abundance!"

Well, that's kind of the point.  A person *wouldn''t* just go get pregnant in order to have an abortion.  It's certainly not fun or cheap or even particularly good for your reproductive health.  People who are faced with this decision are there because of an accident.  

And, quite frankly, I think that debating abortion in this country the way it is currently being done is a ridiculous waste of time and resources.  If "pro-life" advocates want to cut down with abortion, they should be taking all the time & MONEY that they pour into lobbying in congress, terrorist acts against providers, hateful campaigning and invest it in *making insurance companies pay for birth control*.  The state of birth control in this country is disgusting.  Every insurance carrier I have ever had will pay 100% of the costs of an abortion (filed under elective surgery) but will not pay one red cent towards the pill, the depo provera shot, an iud or any other form of control except sterilization.

That is disgusting and THAT is the reason the abortion rate in this country is so high.  You don't want people to "kill babies" then fix it so they can have AFFORDABLE, SAFE access to the most effective forms of birth control.

My .03 on that- which I get angrier and angrier about every time I have to drive an hour across town to go to a clinic that still charges me (on a sliding scale yet) more than I have to protect myself and my husband from dealing with an unplanned pregnancy.
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Shawn
post Feb 20, 2003, 03:07 PM
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hi Chrissy,

listen, I don't think anyone's going to hate you for the views you expressed.  If anything, a few people will probably hate me for what I said, and I perfectly understand that it can be construed by people I view in error (being viewed in error is not necessarily a bad thing) as harsh, cold, and unfeeling, but it doesn't change what I think and how I feel about the issue.  If I think honestly about it, and not allow myself to get biased by what other people will think of me, then aborting a fetus before third trimester does not evoke any more pity or sadness in me than killing a snail or other lower non-conscious life form.  Why should it, when it's just a lump of non-conscious cells?  Certainly a fetus before third trimester doesn't think like us, or feel like us, or for that matter isn't conscious at all and has never been conscious, so what's the big deal?

take care,
Shawn
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Doug_E._Fresh
post Mar 14, 2003, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE

However, there's considerable evidence that brain activity begins before birth, in late fetal development, during the third trimester.  And so I don't see any moral problem whatsoever with aborting a fetus before the third trimester since there's really no chance that the fetus has ever experienced consciousness


Fetuses 'may be conscious long before abortion limit'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...10/nfoet10.xml/

Opinions?
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angelroze
post Mar 14, 2003, 10:56 AM
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no. i do not believe in abortion. its not kewl at all.. if you do that your killing your own child. think about it. my aunt did that and it happend like over twenty years ago and she still cries about it today. i beleive that killing anything is wrong.. please if your thinking about it.. DONT.. ROoze*
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Ann
post Mar 20, 2003, 07:49 AM
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I totally agree with roze. your killing another person and its your fault its in creation in the first place. even if its a child from a rape or just having "to much fun" on a date or anything like that killing an innocent child is not the answer. Even adoption is better than killing a kid. The child didn't ask to be created it didn't ask to be killed. What did the child ever do to deserve to die. Toneta is right in someways I belive also. If you cannot have another child without dying then I think its ok. I'm still not totally sure on that. But still it was your choice to get pregnant in the first place. So I'm still thinking abortion is wrong. It should be totally banned in ALL states. I don't feel this stongly on many issues but these are poor children. They've never had a Christmas or a Birthday. And they haven't even gotten a chance to see the world, their parents, to make friends. I'm sorry if I offend anyone but abortion is just plain WRONG!
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angelroze
post Mar 20, 2003, 07:53 AM
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dude i totally agree wit ann! totally and with everything i have... i dont nkow how to express things sometimes but.. dude abortion is just not kewl. you wuld be killing a baby dude... but hey if you wanna feel guilty, and hate yourself, and be a murderer then go ahead,..its your decision.. ROoze*
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heather
post Mar 20, 2003, 08:00 AM
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i personaly think that abortion is a very wrong thing to do. if i ever knew if any of my friends had an abortion i would not have anything to do with them anymore. it is your fault if you go and sleep around and get yourself pregnant, it is no reason to go and kill the living thing inside your body. i mean if you have a disease and your not supposed to have kids because they might get the disease then i think that it MIGHT be ok but only under those circumstances. and if you think that you cant afford it, your wrong! because they have have many programs such as wick and most people can get money from the state or the government.
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angelroze
post Mar 20, 2003, 08:03 AM
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thank you heather i agree.. yo ur pop hurt yer throut (sp) hun?? lol thought so. but seriously maybe if you get raped, just put it up for adoption ya know?? yea.. thanx heather ROoze*
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Jatava
post Sep 02, 2003, 10:02 AM
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Such a sensative issue, I'm tempted not to add but this thread caught my eye in the moment so I guess I should share.

We do not have the power to take a life.  Spirit is eternal.  It exists before the act of abortion and it exists after the act of abortion.

We do have within us, however, the capacity to deprive a Spirit of human existance, which is very rare indeed.  In fact, we do not begin to fully appreciate how rare human existance is until we try to count all living organizms on this planet, including the single celled ones.

When we begin to put things in this perspective, we begin then IMHO to see just how rare human existance is.

Abortion then, is not taking of a life.  It is depriving of this existance.  And because we are creatures of free will we do have the right to make this choice.

The catch is that while we have the right to make this choice, we can not escape the bad karma that comes with it.  Somehow, someway - it has to be burned off.  A fear which I, myself, do not want to face.    But nevertheless, we do have a choice.

I'm reminded of a Buddhist story that deals with the aborted spirit.  Having missed their turn the little children are said to wake each day along a riverbank and build a Stupa.  Then, at the end of the day - every day - they trear it down.

It is a reflection of their own sorrow for a human existance lost.
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Dara
post Sep 12, 2003, 11:53 PM
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To reply to a comment made by Shawn in his post earlier in this thread, unfortunately, there are peopl in this world who use abortion as a form of birth control. I know of a few people who actually get pregnant and then get abortions several times. And I am not talking about teenagers who may be scared if their parents knew...or whatever the reason may be. Just abortion after abortion..sometimes they would have a baby in between abortions even. Then, get pregnant and get an abortion, only to be pregnant a few months later and keep that baby.

And there are my 2 cents, for whatever they are worth!

Love,
Dara
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akhtar
post Sep 17, 2003, 06:19 AM
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when two people engage in sexual activity they know the result could be pregnancy.
so therefore when a woman becomes pregnant, it is the responsibility of both indivuals to take care of there offspring
with regards to abortion, i totally disagree with it, at the moment when the baby is conceived, surely at this time it is alive, a living being growing inside the womans womb
so when you abort the fetus, you are killing the child growing inside. another thing i dont like is this word fetus, its a baby!
fetus is a word used by people who want to justify there actions by insulting our intelligence,
life is hard and none of us are perfect, but we should all try to remove this veil we have placed on our faces so that the light may shine on us.
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froggy
post Oct 18, 2003, 08:56 PM
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First of all i think that that women that has a child at a young age and gets a abortion is not responsible enough to take care and deal with her own actions and shawn you have no respect for nature if you think its all right to have a abortion and kill something so weak and helpless. I am not saying that is your views but once u have a newph (this is my sisters acount) then u can understand how weak a baby is. i hope u change your mind about the abortion thing. I have nothing against the stem resarch project that u were talking about as long the person ageers with the project. And also the Male who has sex with the women should know the risk he is taking in the first place. yes i know that some men have what we call a one night stand and leave off. Still u shouldnt have sex until u get married because then u know that u boht want a child and wont have a abortion and kill it.(that word abortion fells like posion every time i say it because its a nasty and mean act to do on a baby in the first place.)
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the black kitten
post Nov 01, 2003, 04:31 PM
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well i already know none of ya`ll give a fuck bout what i`m gonna say but oh well
i`m for abortions i mean what the hell teenagers don`t need anymore stress on them its kinda a good idea 4 teenagers i mean they don`t need to bring some kid into this hell hole the child would have a horrible life the kid would probly starve i mean teens have barely enough money and some parents would kick the teen out of the house and where would the kid live and i mean thats no life so i`m for abortion u like it or not
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akhtar
post Nov 03, 2003, 01:18 PM
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if your for abortion then you agree with murder, i'm not gonna sweet talk you.
you take a life and you have no right to take it
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CACACACOOKIE
post Nov 03, 2003, 05:32 PM
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if ur a teen u do

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akhtar
post Nov 03, 2003, 05:45 PM
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i remember when i was a teenager i thought i knew it all, when people tried to tell me about life i just ignored them most of the time.
i suppose it helps that you have a person who you trust, who can show you a path, then again making a mistake here and there can sometimes be more beneficial long term.
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Tabitha
post Nov 04, 2003, 12:12 PM
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I wonder how many of you who oppose a woman's right to choose have been faced with the choice.

I wonder how many of you have lobbied your representatives to improve access to safe, affordable birth control and reliable sex education to prevent these unwanted pregnancies to begin with? How many of you have put your money where your mouth is and donated to organizations who work towards these goals? How many of you have witnessed the effects on a child of being born to a mother unwilling or unable to care for it? Have you ever seen a crack baby or a child suffering from FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome)? A child starving and neglected because its parents didn't want it to begin with? Do you suppose it was best for those children to be born?

If your own health or the life of your spouse were at stake would you sacrifice it to bring an unborn child into the world? If your own severely mentally retarded child was raped or molested and impregnated would you force her to carry the child? Would you expect a mother with an IQ of 70 to raise a baby? Would you do it for her? What if the child being born would force it to live an institutionalized life, crippled by an incurable disease? What if the unborn child was diagnosed via amniocyntesis with a disease that would kill it slowly and painfully before it was age 10?

I wonder how many of you who oppose abortion have adopted an unwanted child? How many of the men who oppose abortion would be willing to take my above suggested tact and sign paperwork absolving the mother of all parental rights, taking the child and becoming single fathers themselves?

It is very easy to sit around playing armchair activist when you do not have to be faced with the harsh reality of what happens when women have babies that should never have been conceived, let alone born. It is easy to pass judgments based on "morals" that allow issues to be black and white, instead of shades of gray. What is hard, what I doubt any of you are willing to do, is to deal with the consequences of your black and white morals.

Adopt a crack baby and then get back to me on how abortion is wrong no matter what the circumstances.
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Tabitha
post Nov 04, 2003, 12:33 PM
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[quote author=the black kitten link=board=28;threadid=2481;start=0#msg15352 date=1067722309]
i`m for abortions
[/quote]

There is a huge difference between being "for abortions" and being for a woman's right to choose. While I personally think there are a great many people in this world that should not be reproducing, I don't classify myself as "for abortion" and I think you really mean for choice.

Having said that, here is what I do support as a means for cutting the abortion rate as well as the rate of children born with chemical dependancies:

http://www.cashforbirthcontrol.com

My personal retort to those who oppose a woman's right to choice is simple: If you don't like abortions, don't have one. Plain and simple. It works for every other aspect of our lives as well. Don't like a certain religion? Don't go to their place of worship. Don't like the way WalMart runs their company? Don't shop there. Don't like the pledge of allegiance? Don't say it. Don't approve of the way the University of Michigan runs their admissions? Go to a different school. Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry a gay person. What is so hard about the concept of living your life according to your own morals and values and not worrying about what the guy next door is doing? If he isn't infringing on your right to make your own choices, what business is it of yours?

There is so much whining in this country that it makes my head ache. And what do all the whiners want? They want the already bloated government to step in and fix it. They want someone to play Big Brother and tell the "bad guys" to do things the "right" way (meaning: their way) "or else". It is such nonsense. Take some responsibility for your own feelings, that's what I say. Worry about what goes on in your own bedroom, in your own checking account, in your own household and leave the rest of us to do the same.

That last half wasn't to you Kitten and probably belongs on the politics board, but I was feeling chatty today. Have at it ;-)
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akhtar
post Nov 04, 2003, 05:35 PM
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i want to ask a question, when a women falls pregnant, is that life an indivual and does he or she have rights.
with regards to a womans right to choice, does a person have a right to kill a defenceless person, and should we stand by idle, what kind of people are we if we just stand and do nothing,
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Shawn
post Nov 04, 2003, 06:01 PM
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with the world as over-populated as it already is, it seems the last thing we all need is an additional 45,000,000 unwanted babies each year.
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Shawn
post Nov 04, 2003, 06:18 PM
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I'd like to make clear at the outset that I'm pro-choice. However, in googling for the number of yearly abortions for my last post, I came across an amusing letter which, to me, represents a prime example of disinformation and flawed reasoning.

Here it is for your amusement!

the url is http://biblia.com/gore/


Open Letter to Mr. Gore:

Dear Mr. Gore:

You emphatically state "I will always, always defend a woman’s right to choose".

Mr. Gore: A woman never should have the right to kill her baby!… not one day or one month after birth, and not one day or one month before birth… never!.

Will you always defend a woman's right to choose to kill her baby one day after birth?… what about one day before birth?.

Will you always defend a woman's right to choose to kill her baby one month after birth?… and what about one month before birth?… or 3 months before birth?… do you draw any line at all, or is it "always, always"?…

Will you always defend a woman's right to choose to kill her baby 18 days after conception, when an electrocardiogram (EKG) can be obtained from the baby's heart?…

What about 6 weeks after conception, when an electroencephalogram (EEG) can be obtained from the baby's brain?…

And what about 3 months after conception, when the baby has the same fingerprints he will have at age 30?…

And you know well, Mr. Gore, that "a woman's right to choose" means she has the right to kill her baby by abortion before birth, any time before birth!… the only way to have an abortion is to kill a baby before birth... a baby, a human being!… if there is no pregnancy, there can not be an abortion.

Today, there are 53 million abortions per year in the world... one million abortions per week... can you lead?

Mr. Gore: I am glad and thankful that your mother and mine never exercised the right to choose to kill us neither before nor after birth… I hope you are glad and thankful too.

I am glad and thankful your mother and mine took good care of us before and after birth, in good health and in sickness, in good times and in bad ones… always, always!…

I hope you are also glad and thankful for that… and that you are willing to give all American babies the same right and joy… the right and joy of having a caring, responsible mother and father.

I believe, Mr. Gore, you are an Ordained Christian Minister, and you should be able to answer properly some of my questions and comments.

Yours in Jesus Christ,

Jerome Domínguez, M.D.

New York, August 6, 2000


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Tabitha
post Nov 04, 2003, 07:18 PM
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[quote author=akhtar link=board=28;threadid=2481;start=0#msg15484 date=1067985352]
i want to ask a question, when a women falls pregnant, is that life an indivual and does he or she have rights.
with regards to a womans right to choice, does a person have a right to kill a defenceless person, and should we stand by idle, what kind of people are we if we just stand and do nothing,
[/quote]

Akhtar;

To answer your first question- no, those cells are not an individual and no, they do not have rights. When the fetus reaches the stage of viability, then it has rights and can correctly be referred to as a "life". This normally takes place in the third trimester of pregnancy. Your second question requires one to assume that your premise (a fetus is a defenseless person that has rights) is correct, and I find your premise to be false.

You are so concerned about these so-called "lives" that have not yet begun but you did not answer my post from earlier. What are you doing about it besides complaining about what others are doing and lashing out at those who disagree with you? How many unwanted, uncared for babies have you personally adopted? Have you ever been faced with the choice of having an unwanted or unhealthy baby? Have you ever witnessed the devastation that can be brought to a child by forcing it to be carried to term by a parent incapable or unwilling to care for it? Have you faced the decison of sacrificing your own life or that of your spouse for the sake of an unborn child?

When you have faced these things, when you personally are willing to sacrifice to insure the upbringing of unwanted, unhealthy babies then and only then will your opinion on this matter bear weight to me, and I wager, to anyone else who disagrees with your premise. I repeat: adopt a crack baby and then you can come on here and tell me how abortion is always wrong.

Take that how you wish.
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Tabitha
post Nov 04, 2003, 07:24 PM
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And, for the record, I have been faced with some of these decisions and I have witnessed the effects of children born with chemical dependancies.

I would not wish on my worst enemy the heartache of having to make such decisions and never would I say that children born sufferring from chemical dependancies are better off having been born. I suggest to you that you take a trip to your local hospital and ask some of the nurses in infant ICU about this.

Be sure you know of what you speak before you pass judgment on another.
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-J-
post Apr 30, 2004, 01:51 PM
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Dear people,
Here is my two pennyworth I hope it can be used :

The only person on this board who makes any sense is Tabitha, sorry but its true. She and She alone has had to make this agonising yet necessary decision to end the life of something that will now never be. Her loss is something she will carry for the rest of her life and that is quite punishment enough for any single human being.

What seems to be a pack of teenage females with high morals obviously do not understand the rest of the world around them. There are over six billion souls on this earth where the females out number the males at approx 4:1 ( good news for teenage boys - bad news if you dont learn to respect women )
Most of these women do not live in the luxury most people take for granted, the decision for them ( all over the earth, not just your aunty ) to terminate a lifeform growing inside of them is purely up to themselves.
As for Ann :- totally agree with roze. your killing another person and its your fault its in creation in the first place. even if its a child from a rape or just having "to much fun" - do me a favour go down to your local rape crisis centre and tell all of the women there that it was their own fault.
As for Akhtar : another thing i dont like is this word fetus, its a baby!
fetus is a word used by people who want to justify there actions by insulting our intelligence - its a foetus (UK spelling) a mammalian offspring usually human over the age of eight weeks, it isnt there to insult your intelligence it is the latin name given to a human offspring gestating within the womb.
It is far from being a baby so do yourself a favour and accept the name. Just because it doesnt sit well on your tongue when you say it, doesnt mean its wrong to say it.

I am the father of three wonderful daughters but I had no choice in the matter. My wife chose, I chose to stand by her, thats my job as her partner here in life. I love her and I love my children but if she had chosen differently I would have stood by her choice too.
The child grows, think of the word for a second - grows, inside the womb and is a living part of the mother until final birth. This is a celebration of life and the miracle of reproduction. I witnessed the births of my three girls and was also allowed to sever the umbilical cord. The ultimate experience of my life.

If women want to abort an unwanted pregnacy they they have the right to do so.
Men on the other hand should just shut XXX XXXX up and stand by their loved ones decision.

J

This post has been edited by -J-: Apr 30, 2004, 01:56 PM
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Guest
post Apr 30, 2004, 06:25 PM
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it looks as if whoever started this thread, apparently someone called "Peta", has deleted his/her posts. Interesting.
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