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> Are we playing a fictional role in life?
coberst
post Mar 19, 2009, 12:54 AM
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Are we playing a fictional role in life?

Sapiens are a species that has lost many of their animal instincts and our “soul” replaces these instincts. I use the word ‘soul’ to signify what many might call consciousness, spirit, conscience, mind, reason, etc. We are thus thrust out of the arms of Mother Nature and onto our own ability to adapt and survive. We are forced into replacing the natural selection process, which has led to our evolution, and we are thrown upon our own abilities to adapt or to be extinguished. It is our “soul” that creates the games we play. These games replace natural selection; and determine our survival as a species.

Socrates was an intuitive genius, who may have been the first to understand that man needs to function in a shared social fiction before he can earn his own social honor, and social approval. But even Socrates could not intuit the degree to which this need was rooted. He could not see how deep ‘social performance’ goes and the degree that it is rooted in the anxiety of all sapiens. Humans cannot recognize their own self-worth without the word from their own social group.

We have successfully struggled against Mother Nature to gain great material wealth only to discover that, as Pogo might say, “we have met the enemy and it is us”. The enemy is our great material play-form itself; it is our own profit-and-loss economy, our money-over-the-counter game that is defeating us. We have lost all relationship with our nature. Our created fiction has crippled our ability to rationally adapt to our world we have created. We run as fast as we can from school to shopping center to the bank and back home in our new SUV only to discover that the gods have already made us mad. Our own fictions are killing us.

War itself is a fiction, it is a game, and it is a play-form. Roman civilization itself was a great “potlatch spirit” (a ceremonial feast of the American Indian of the northwest coast marked by the host’s lavish distribution of gifts or sometimes destruction of property to demonstrate wealth and generosity with the expectation of eventual reciprocation). What begins as simple contests, develop into complex play-forms. “Poetry, art, law, philosophy, war—all are contests or play-forms.”

To call them play-forms is not to say that they are not serious. In our great game of society we create meaning; fictional meaning but nevertheless these fictions are life-meaning fictions. Me and Earnest agree, our problem is that we must create better fictions to live by, because our present fictions are killing us.

What is the difference between playing a fictional role in life versus a non-fictional role?

Ideas and quotes from Beyond Alienation by Ernest Becker
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Rick
post Mar 19, 2009, 07:46 AM
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I am not sure we have lost any animal instincts. I have lots of them.
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coberst
post Mar 19, 2009, 09:21 AM
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We still have instincts but they play a much diminished role in our welfare. Our welfare is determined primarily by our artificial life of meaning that we have created.
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catseye
post Mar 19, 2009, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE(coberst @ Mar 19, 2009, 12:54 AM) *
What is the difference between playing a fictional role in life versus a non-fictional role?[/b]




In new age and eastern philosophy the common reason taught is that animal instinct and soul are to be separated, and that our dreadful lower drives are to be disbanded. Yet it is our very soul that created this function for survival and procreation. Yes, many will say, but the time for those effects is rooted out now by our evolution to a higher mind. Yet I believe the fiction of it is the continued mistake of procuring the harmful effect of separation. To separate the mind from feeling - soul from human life, creates the ultimate fiction in life. No one can deny that we live HERE. We choose to experience this life, this form, this evolution.

Separation is the fiction. In all forms. From thinking we Need anything material as opposed to living in a cave with nothing, to Feeling we must have more sensation to absolving ourselves to feel nothing, to evolving a practice of alienating our earth given life as opposed to the souls purpose.

Harmonious Unity is the non fiction. We live here and we have certain needs - feeling - life. To go to one extreme or another creates another separation (fiction). Live too much in the feelings and we become like animals, live to much on material thought and we become tyranny. Live only according to earthly demands and we become soulless. The opposite is also true. Live to the excess reverse of any of these and life itself dies as one cannot experience anything to sustain the souls expressions and evolution, or purpose.

So our social enemy my be ourselves continually as we harbor the false thought of separation BUT, is also the guide that give us the structure to create anew. Wars, poems, contests all push the envelope to understanding what is needed in this great recipe of life evolving.
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Rick
post Mar 19, 2009, 04:27 PM
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So I suppose you are saying that balance is good. Or as Aristotle said, "in all things, moderation."
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coberst
post Mar 20, 2009, 03:29 AM
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I would say the difference between a virtual world and the real world is that the real world is grounded in literal experience whereas the virtual world is not grounded.

SGCS (Second Generation Cognitive Science) informs me that we have literal experiences that become sources for abstract ideas or part of other literal experiences.

The conceptual structure of a literal experience is mapped into another mental space to become part of another concept. For example: the experience of warmth resulting from being held by the mother is a literal experience that can be later mapped onto a subjective concept of affection. This means that the subjective concept then contains some or all of the conceptual structure of the literal experience of warmth. That is why almost everyone senses a feeling of warmth when feeling affection for someone.


Humans are artifact adoring artisans

Humans are meme (idea) adoring creators.

Humans create symbols (abstract ideas) upon which they place value sufficient for killing and dying.

Americans create a flag (an artifact of cloth) which symbolizes the value they place in a nation (artifact, idea, meme) for which they will really kill and die (nothing artificial here).

Humans require meaningful symbols upon which to give life sufficient purpose for living, dying, and killing.

Because humans can create their own meaningful artifacts why does our species place meaning into such dangerous artifacts (memes, ideologies) as religion, nation, capitalism, communism, etc?

The freedom we have to create that which is meaningful to us is poorly used, why?

Why do we waste such a precious freedom on such dangerous toys?

We do so because we lack the courage (self-reliance) to go against the flow.

Our adaptation to society as infants and children has left us without the courage and confidence required to go against the flow of society. We have the freedom but not the energy and courage to overcome the blind habit of conformity.

We are not determined atoms; we do have the potential to do much better. How can we overcome what we have become and thus become something better?

We can overcome our present predicament by creating a new reality, a new set of meaningful symbols that we choose to give value.

Imagination is the instrument by which we can overcome.

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catseye
post Mar 20, 2009, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 19, 2009, 04:27 PM) *

So I suppose you are saying that balance is good. Or as Aristotle said, "in all things, moderation."



Perhaps it's to say "good balance" As much as I respect the mind of Aristotle, the quote "in all things, moderation" is still not balanced. We can not moderately commit crimes or moderately suppose an extreme of any action in self indulgence.
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catseye
post Mar 20, 2009, 07:56 AM
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Coberst
"I would say the difference between a virtual world and the real world is that the real world is grounded in literal experience whereas the virtual world is not grounded."


- In your first post you questioned what the difference is between the fictional as opposed to the real. A virtual world is different than what we conceptualize as fiction which is in the realm of imagination- fiction is required for developing or understanding virtual ideas but in it self the term virtual is a different concept. Ie: real = matter, sound, light and virtual = as in the virtual soul.
I’m stating this not because I don’t agree with your statement above but that it does not relate to the first post in this thread. The first post seemed related to the psychology of the human mind in understanding what we understand as real or fiction and by what we judge to be acceptable in both cases.



coberst
"Humans are artifact adoring artisans
Humans are meme (idea) adoring creators.
Humans create symbols (abstract ideas) upon which they place value sufficient for killing and dying.

Americans create a flag (an artifact of cloth) which symbolizes the value they place in a nation (artifact, idea, meme) for which they will really kill and die (nothing artificial here).

Humans require meaningful symbols upon which to give life sufficient purpose for living, dying, and killing.

Because humans can create their own meaningful artifacts why does our species place meaning into such dangerous artifacts (memes, ideologies) as religion, nation, capitalism, communism, etc?

The freedom we have to create that which is meaningful to us is poorly used, why?
Why do we waste such a precious freedom on such dangerous toys?
We do so because we lack the courage (self-reliance) to go against the flow."


- Some ideologies are harmful but not all of them. Going against the flow is the precise reason that the American Flag was created, not just as a symbol of willing patriotism but the willing spirit to create a new way of life away from the (then) opposing country that was insistent on controlling and conquering. It took great courage and determination to go against this flow.

But no matter the flow of absolving or sustaining there is always a new conformity to replace the old.

When Moses was on the mount, the people below lost faith and was influenced to create another ideology of God. This created the response of pure wrath from Moses who then made the decision to make these people wonder for 40 years so that another generation would be created by this new conformity. But in all of it was “conformity” , that all those people followed Moses for those 40 years. So conformity and the influence to conform has good effects and bad. Also, Moses went against the flow, braking form with Egypt and conformed still by creating his own affirmations to conform.


coberst
"Our adaptation to society as infants and children has left us without the courage and confidence required to go against the flow of society. We have the freedom but not the energy and courage to overcome the blind habit of conformity."


- Courage and confidence are not lacking IMHO. Conformity is a necessity to all human relation otherwise we would regress to a primatial existence. We need conformity, it is our basis of living in a world. What’s needed is knowing and acting on proper conformity that gives growth and well being to the whole instead of what leads to tyranny of the masses by a select few.


coberst
"We are not determined atoms; we do have the potential to do much better. How can we overcome what we have become and thus become something better?

We can overcome our present predicament by creating a new reality, a new set of meaningful symbols that we choose to give value.

Imagination is the instrument by which we can overcome."



- So to come full circle, what conformity is this?

In the past 50 years we have become far more than what it was prior. Wars are terrible. But in all we have grown in many areas that promote better well being for ourselves. People are waking up to new ideas and acting on them. It’s abstract to sit in any one situation and say, this is all there is and it’s terrible. It isn’t.
We must look at the whole tapestry, not just one stitch at a time.
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Joesus
post Mar 20, 2009, 08:38 AM
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Plato

Book VII of The Republic

The Allegory of the Cave


Here's a little story from Plato's most famous book, The Republic. Socrates is talking to a young follower of his named Glaucon, and is telling him this fable to illustrate what it's like to be a philosopher -- a lover of wisdom: Most people, including ourselves, live in a world of relative ignorance. We are even comfortable with that ignorance, because it is all we know. When we first start facing truth, the process may be frightening, and many people run back to their old lives. But if you continue to seek truth, you will eventually be able to handle it better. In fact, you want more! It's true that many people around you now may think you are weird or even a danger to society, but you don't care. Once you've tasted the truth, you won't ever want to go back to being ignorant!

[Socrates is speaking with Glaucon]

[Socrates:] And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.

[Glaucon:] I see.

And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.

You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.


Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?

True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?

And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?

Yes, he said.


And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?

Very true.

And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?

No question, he replied.

To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.

That is certain.

And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -- will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

Far truer.

And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?

True, he said.


And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.

Not all in a moment, he said.

He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?

Certainly.

Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.

Certainly.

He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?

Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.


And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?

Certainly, he would.

And if they were in the habit of conferring honours among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honours and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,
Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?

Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.

Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?

To be sure, he said.


And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.

No question, he said.


This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.
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coberst
post Mar 20, 2009, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 20, 2009, 07:56 AM) *

So conformity and the influence to conform has good effects and bad. Also, Moses went against the flow, braking form with Egypt and conformed still by creating his own affirmations to conform.

We need conformity, it is our basis of living in a world. What’s needed is knowing and acting on proper conformity that gives growth and well being to the whole instead of what leads to tyranny of the masses by a select few.

In the past 50 years we have become far more than what it was prior. Wars are terrible. But in all we have grown in many areas that promote better well being for ourselves. People are waking up to new ideas and acting on them. It’s abstract to sit in any one situation and say, this is all there is and it’s terrible. It isn’t.
We must look at the whole tapestry, not just one stitch at a time.


I agree generally with your statements. However, I would suggest that we conform judiciously and with a good deal of Critical Thinking.

In some respects, more food for more people, we have improved but in other respect our technology has helped this increase in food but it has brought us to the edge of self destruction because it has placed into our hands far more power than our sophistication can handle, our present financial melt-down being a good example.
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coberst
post Mar 20, 2009, 09:55 AM
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Joesus

Great allagory!
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catseye
post Mar 20, 2009, 01:42 PM
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[quote name='coberst' date='Mar 20, 2009, 09:53 AM' post='99639']

[/quote]

I agree generally with your statements. However, I would suggest that we conform judiciously and with a good deal of Critical Thinking.

In some respects, more food for more people, we have improved but in other respect our technology has helped this increase in food but it has brought us to the edge of self destruction because it has placed into our hands far more power than our sophistication can handle, our present financial melt-down being a good example.
[/quote]


Absolutely !! thanks for a great subject.
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catseye
post Mar 20, 2009, 01:47 PM
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Joesus:
“Most people, including ourselves, live in a world of relative ignorance. We are even comfortable with that ignorance, because it is all we know.”

- I can not agree with this statement. I don’t believe that most people are ignorant. I think many like to hide behind the false premises of ignorance for selfish gain, but it is different than actually being ignorant. I see many getting involved in more intelligence, many getting inspired in generating ideas that enlighten the minds of mankind, and many becoming that light. The very conversation taking place here is an example of how individuals relate and share their thoughts in creating understanding, enlightenment and philosophy. I may refuse or relate to what coberst is saying but on both counts I am enlightened to be learning with or through him.


Joesus:
“When we first start facing truth, the process may be frightening, and many people run back to their old lives. But if you continue to seek truth, you will eventually be able to handle it better. ”


- What truth? …
Personal consciousness or the truth of human life? That’s ever changing isn’t it? Truth is not stationary, or we’d all still be stuck in the big bang. As the universe grows so does truth.
(ie: old testament- new testament, both true)

Can people really run back to an older life? Even if, that also is enmeshed with change of consequence.
I understand that learning anything new there may be some fear or apprehension but the tone of what you write sounds as if many people have not overcome through the process of change. I’m a activist in humanity coming into greater understanding of spiritual evolution and perhaps it’s just the words you have chosen that tipped me off. It sounded like you view most as ignorant, or resentful of becoming enlightened, when I think many already have overcome.

It’s like a double negative, telling people their ignorant will often make them repel the new knowledge. Just let the knowledge speak for itself and others become attracted to it because of self realization that there is new knowledge- not ignorant people.

Joesus:
“In fact, you want more! It's true that many people around you now may think you are weird or even a danger to society, but you don't care. Once you've tasted the truth, you won't ever want to go back to being ignorant!”


- Yes, indeed !!

I’ve read through your posts - interesting.
Thankyou for the reference to Plato. I’ve read it, but the refreshing twist on how it relates to conforming with the right or wrong ideologies was inspiring.


“truth is as a wave on a shore, it washes in the new and in tide takes back the old, yet the ocean remains as one. “ - anonymous


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Joesus
post Mar 20, 2009, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE
“When we first start facing truth, the process may be frightening, and many people run back to their old lives. But if you continue to seek truth, you will eventually be able to handle it better. ”


- What truth? …
Personal consciousness or the truth of human life? That’s ever changing isn’t it? Truth is not stationary, or we’d all still be stuck in the big bang. As the universe grows so does truth.
(ie: old testament- new testament, both true)

Truth that is not relative to personal idealism but the nature of the universe is unchanging. It is the perceptions and beliefs of man that are continuously changing and it is the unknown which creates fear.
Once you get a taste of the absolute unchanging Truth it vanquishes the shadows of changing belief and dissipates fear. Since the absolute Truth is beyond conditions of definition, to explore it expands conscious awareness. To ignore it and isolate ones self within the boundaries of belief and changing opinion is ignorance.
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post Mar 20, 2009, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE(coberst @ Mar 19, 2009, 05:21 PM) *

We still have instincts but they play a much diminished role in our welfare. Our welfare is determined primarily by our artificial life of meaning that we have created.
Our instincts are still VERY strong. That is why there is so much so-named 'crime'. It's also why there is an overwhelming need to be social (with exceptions, as is the rule in biology). Being social animals helps us to conserve out genes. But that also means we are territorial, as nature has devised a system where close-by socialites who are potentially (statistically [but maybe that should be historically statistically, and not so much modern]) closer related (genetically). And so when we protect our close neighbours through social activities, we protect our genes and enable their transmission and survival.

So actually the social mode for humans is an elusion. More wide-spread social groups are not treated the same, although we might like to think they are, in our politically correct time-frame. That is why humans are still racist, that is why there was a cold war, that is why we don't like immigration, that is why there our countless tribal wars in Africa, that is why we are insular when it comes to combating hunger and disease across the 3rd world (apart from a few initiatives more inclined to elevate some politician or popstar than solve the problem - just look at the sums given compared to the sums required). Globalization and immigration (inevitable) will maybe eventually dilute the problem of tribalism (local and world-wide) but it will take some time yet and it is hard to imagine. Then we can talk about humans as true social creatures. Until then, even with all the talk, we are selfish, antisocial (outside of our local geography) animals with strong base instincts of the well known kind. I'm just thinking about tribalism wrt immigrants, especially having just read about 1st generation (the original) immigrants who did not learn the new language even after decades, so the desire to truly integrate was absent?

(Please excuse any garbled rants but I've been given a new medication for a neuropathic condition - it works, but is sending me a bit squiffy until I accommodate. I feel this topic is important and I wanted to make comments before it passes by.)
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catseye
post Mar 22, 2009, 08:22 AM
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Joesus:
“Truth that is not relative to personal idealism but the nature of the universe is unchanging.
It is the perceptions and beliefs of man that are continuously changing and it is the unknown which creates fear.

Once you get a taste of the absolute unchanging Truth it vanquishes the shadows of changing belief and dissipates fear. Since the absolute Truth is beyond conditions of definition, to explore it expands conscious awareness.

To ignore it and isolate ones self within the boundaries of belief and changing opinion is ignorance.”



- Light is light even though the spectrum changes, sound is sound no matter the frequency but the universe is in a constant state of change otherwise it would not expand as we know it. The atoms in our bodies are structured, but yet we evolve. None of this requires idealism. But the nature of man requires idealism to seek the truth and is the answer in dismissing fear. To keep in context with the thread, this is what we are discussing: How does man use idealism to manipulate for the bad or good of the whole.

Absolute Truth ? One can not just sit as a guru and expect the truth to dawn upon them. IMHO- It takes evolution and expanding ideals to continually broaden the wisdom of the seeker. Each idea may in it self be a fragment of absolute truth but the nature of this ongoing development is unchanging; just like a book we can only read one page at a time. I agree that to ignore and isolate another is ignorant, but changing belief and opinion is the core of that which brakes the stagnation of isolated systems such as religion and political corruption. It is also the basis of those that call themselves philosophers, to branch out on theory, speculation and discovering a sustained wisdom, ideals and changing opinions are needed.

I’m sure you have heard of the story of the elephant that when a few blind men have encountered it one only feels the leg, another the body and another the trunk, all of them describe it as a different thing yet once coming together with each piece they discover it is an elephant. Each of them was right and each wrong but without the ideals that they each conceived the absolute answer they beheld would be stuck in ignorance.

What is absolute truth?
What practice makes a person centered on absolute truth?
Is absolute truth equal to everyone?



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Joesus
post Mar 22, 2009, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 22, 2009, 04:22 PM) *

- Light is light even though the spectrum changes, sound is sound no matter the frequency but the universe is in a constant state of change otherwise it would not expand as we know it. The atoms in our bodies are structured, but yet we evolve. None of this requires idealism. But the nature of man requires idealism to seek the truth and is the answer in dismissing fear. To keep in context with the thread, this is what we are discussing: How does man use idealism to manipulate for the bad or good of the whole.

He can't manipulate anything he makes himself subject to, or anything he makes real outside of himself. He can change his own beliefs and ideas possibly altering his experience of himself, which in turn alters his experience of the whole, but if the whole is still separate from him in his own experience it will still be a potential threat, and he will need to be on guard always to maintain the whole or his experience with it in such a way that he won't fear it.
One can see good or evil if one wants to find that. Or one can find out what creates it and why it exists, and the perfection in both.

QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 22, 2009, 04:22 PM) *

Absolute Truth ? One can not just sit as a guru and expect the truth to dawn upon them. IMHO- It takes evolution and expanding ideals to continually broaden the wisdom of the seeker. Each idea may in it self be a fragment of absolute truth but the nature of this ongoing development is unchanging; just like a book we can only read one page at a time. I agree that to ignore and isolate another is ignorant, but changing belief and opinion is the core of that which brakes the stagnation of isolated systems such as religion and political corruption. It is also the basis of those that call themselves philosophers, to branch out on theory, speculation and discovering a sustained wisdom, ideals and changing opinions are needed.

If you expand the awareness beyond belief and idealism it is possible to free yourself from the construct of evolution. Physicians and scientists used to think the body preceded the mind, but now they are leaning toward the reality that the mind is what affects the body in its overall health and experience. Go one step further than the mind as just the flashing of neural impulses in the brain and you come closer to knowing the Self and the creator of humanity, and there you get a glimpse of humanity as a reflection of the One absolute Mind.
QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 22, 2009, 04:22 PM) *

I’m sure you have heard of the story of the elephant that when a few blind men have encountered it one only feels the leg, another the body and another the trunk, all of them describe it as a different thing yet once coming together with each piece they discover it is an elephant. Each of them was right and each wrong but without the ideals that they each conceived the absolute answer they beheld would be stuck in ignorance.

And other stories. The allegory points toward the whole as being closer to the Self rather than the limited idealism contained within the individual. Taking the mind inward one touches the Whole which is the absolute. It is in there that all of the perceived universes reside. They are then isolated into programs of belief in evolution and limitation of individual experience by the ego, which identifies with surface appearances or reflections of the Absolute. If you were to expand the Whole beyond this galaxy into all life in its potential of existence even beyond carbon based lifeforms the elephant becomes more clear, but it is not necessary to move outward in such a slow fashion. All life and its reflections are within the absolute and can be re-cognized.

Before man took fruit from the Tree of knowledge he lived unbounded and untethered to beliefs and any process of evolution, under the tree of immortality.
QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 22, 2009, 04:22 PM) *

What is absolute truth?
What practice makes a person centered on absolute truth?
Is absolute truth equal to everyone?
Absolute Truth resides within all relative truths, it is the underlying field of potential which supports all perceptions of reality. It is the Alpha and the Omega, the pages upon which all the words are written.

The practice of introspection, the inward movement of the mind, or the meditation upon the absolute is what centers one on the absolute.


The absolute truth is reflected in everyone and everything, it is without limits and boundaries and does not in itself equal anything, for anything is just a reflection of the absolute.
And there is no end to the anythings and everythings in the infinite absolute.
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trojan_libido
post Mar 24, 2009, 06:33 AM
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QUOTE(coberst @ Mar 19, 2009, 05:21 PM) *
We still have instincts but they play a much diminished role in our welfare.
I don't believe thats as true as you'd like to believe. I've spent all my life, and will spend the rest of it trying to control animal urges. I've seen this in so many people that I just can't agree with that statement. I believe we hide the instincts in conversation and parody, often validating our own behaviours internally to justify acting on those impulses. Given the short time between our ancestral roots and our current biology, its a little arrogant of us as humans to believe we're now 'above' instincts. Next time you get the fight or flight response, or fall in love, or get anxiety etc. etc. I'm sure you'll be in a much better position to re-evaluate that statement.

I'm just a bag of impulses to be honest biggrin.gif
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