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> Holotheism: Is This a New and Better way of looking at the GØD (GOD, or God) Concept?, I look at Holotheism as Complimentary to Unitheism
Lindsay
post Mar 27, 2009, 08:05 PM
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holotheism + unitheism --Is This a New Way of Looking at the GOD hypothesis?
First posted at www.wondercafe.ca on: 03/27/2009 02:08

A DIALOGUE ABOUT THE WRITINGS OF RICHARD DAWKINS. In chapter two he writes about what he calls "THE GOD HYPOTHESIS".
===========================================================
To all readers and fellow posters--including atheists, agnostics, believers (all faiths) or the just plain curious: While taking a holiday in Florida, I took the opportunity to do a careful reading of THE GOD DELUSION, the widely-acclaimed book by Richard Dawkins, who describes himself as a "staunch atheist" (page 13).

In the preface of his book Dawkins states his purpose for writing it: "It is written to raise consciousness--raise consciousness that to be an atheist is a realistic aspiration and a splendid one. You can be an atheist who is balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled. He writes in the hope that readers "will gain enlightenment" and that we will come to the conclusion that 'the God hypothesis' is a false one.

One reviewer, Professor Stephen Pinker, Harvard University--author of The Language Instinct, How the Mind Works, and The Blank State--describes Professor Hawkins as, "one of the best nonfiction writers alive today".
============================================================================

With the above in mind check out http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hylotheism
There, I found the word, 'hy´lo`the`ism',
-------------
It is a noun meaning the doctrine of belief that matter is God, or that there is no God except matter and the universe; pantheism. See Materialism.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co.
==============

Please, will those who respond to this post tell us: Have you listened to and/or read Richard Dawkins? Do not be afraid to tell us what you do or do not believe in matters of faith and morals. But please be clear and to the point.
Here is one of the many sites on Dawkins' work:
http://richarddawkins.net/quotes

http://www.google.ca/search?q=richard+da...lient=firefox-a
==================================
In my opinion, Richard Dawkins, a writer I admire, is more of a hylotheist than an atheist.
Me? In the past I have called myself a unitheist. See
http://www.unitheist.org/whatis.html

I still think that unitheism is a good word, but while reading Dawkins' book the word 'holotheism' came to my mind. I think it is a new word.

Over the next few posts I will try to define what 'holotheism' means for me. I will appreciate any comments, pro or con, which will help me to do so.

Keep in mind that, as one who respects all sincerely held beliefs--especially the kind which inspire us to be moral, ethical, loving and humane beings--I am more interested in dialogue than in debate. However, I am not a moral relativist. For me, there are some things which are right and some which are wrong. I also have strong opinions about social justice issues. Look what shameless greed has done, recently, to the economy, to the hard-working middle class and the poor.

But, over the years, I hope I have learned to disagree without being too disagreeable.

======================================
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Lindsay
post Mar 27, 2009, 08:10 PM
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This thread got a quick and lively response. And I got excellent help from Arminius who values open theologies, including atheisms. Here is what he posted on: 03/27/2009 15:07

He wrote, "Actually holotheism is my kind of theism.

"Holotheism regards the universe as an inseparable whole, or holon, which contains holons within holons within holons, etc., right down to pure energy, which is a singularity, just as the supra holon, a.k.a. universe, or God, is a singularity.

"Cosmic energy is a singularity which possesses the creative power to transcend itself while remaining what it is. Thus, the cosmic singularity became plurality and diversity while remaining a singularity.

"This, in a nutshell, is Holotheismas I would explain it. "
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code buttons
post Mar 27, 2009, 08:37 PM
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First off, welcome back Lindsay! Have you worked the tan out yet?
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lucid_dream
post Mar 27, 2009, 09:03 PM
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pantheism does not necessarily equate God with matter. See Spinoza's pantheism.
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Lindsay
post Mar 28, 2009, 02:28 PM
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[/quote]
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Mar 27, 2009, 09:03 PM) *

pantheism does not necessarily equate God with matter. See Spinoza's pantheism.
Interesting comment, l_d. BTW, remind me: Where are you on the spectrum of theism? Expand on your comment about Spinoza's panentheism.

I suspect that Spinoza, who was admired by Einstein, was more of a panENtheist--much like holotheism: GØD is that which is in through and around all that is-- than a pantheist. However, the word 'panentheism' was not invented in Spinoza's day.

By the way, I Think that the poet, Tennyson also had panentheism in mind when he wrote the following poem.

QUOTE
THE HIGHER PANTHEISM
by Lord Alfred Tennyson
======================================
The sun, the moon, the stars, the seas, the hills and the plains,-
Are not these, O Soul, the Vision of Him who reigns?
Is not the Vision He, tho' He be not that which He seems?

Dreams are true while they last, and do we not live in dreams?
Earth, these solid stars, this weight of body and limb,
Are they not sign and symbol of thy division from Him?
Dark is the world to thee; thyself art the reason why,
For is He not all but thou, that hast power to feel "I am I"?
Glory about thee, without thee; and thou fulfillest thy doom,
Making Him broken gleams and a stifled splendour and gloom.

Speak to Him, thou, for He hears, and Spirit with Spirit can meet-
Closer is He than breathing, and nearer than hands and feet.

God is law, say the wise; O soul, and let us rejoice,
For if He thunder by law the thunder is yet His voice.

Law is God, say some; no God at all, says the fool,
For all we have power to see is a straight staff bent in a pool;

And the ear of man cannot hear, and the eye of man cannot see;
But if we could see and hear, this Vision-were it not He?

I presume that atheists are not amused by Tennyson's comment: "... no God at all, says the fool".
Tennyson was quoting Psalm 14: 1.

Obviously, Tennyson's and Spinoza's vision of God was not that of a personal being separate and apart from us as human beings--the kind believed in by fundamentalists and railed against by atheists. All this goes to show how important it is for us to be clear about what we have in mind and to communicate it clearly to others.
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Hey Hey
post Mar 28, 2009, 03:26 PM
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Welcome back Lindsay. I hope you had a good holiday!

You've given us plenty of words to subvert the fact that Dawkins IS an atheist. I really think that such an eminent intellectual would know how to define his beliefs. Having said that, he is no outright rejector of new ideas and, I am sure, would give consideration to any new suggestions, if indeed they are new to him. Thus, can I recommend that you contact him directly: contact@richarddawkins.net .

Can I ask you, why do you try and complicate the issue of the nature of a non-entity through semantics? There are plenty of good, decent, understandable and accepted words/terms for all of the phenomena that you try to circumvent by the term 'god', which we all know has connotations with religion, faith and deity, however you try and spell/illustrate it.
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Lindsay
post Mar 29, 2009, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 28, 2009, 03:26 PM) *

... Can I ask you, why do you try and complicate the issue of the nature of a non-entity through semantics?


Give me an example of how I "try to complicate the issue..."
Then feel free to suggest how I can uncomplicate things. I am willing to accept all the help I can get.

"There are plenty of good, decent, understandable and accepted words/terms for all of the phenomena that you try to circumvent by the term 'god'..."

Terms such as ...?

BTW, I do not worship, believe in, or pray to God, or a god, separate and apart from me, any more than I do to Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. But I do connect with, tune in to, all Being, all Presence, for which I use the acronym in my signature. I do it for very practical reasons: It works. I get results.

"'god'...which we all know has connotations with religion, faith and deity, however you try and spell/illustrate it."

BTW, do you agree with Dawkins and Hitchins that all religions are all evil and should be wiped off the face of the globe?

Do you say the same is true of spirituality?

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Joesus
post Mar 29, 2009, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE
BTW, do you agree with Dawkins and Hitchins that all religions are all evil and should be wiped off the face of the globe?


There is some truth, in that the relative effects of belief and opinion can be an evil that separates man from the absolute Truth.

As man tries to become more impressive in his own individuality so that it might stand out in the sea of commonality, he separates himself from his own world to try and imagine something different as his creation, rather than to suffer the smell of the one he perceives as something other, than his own.
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Hey Hey
post Mar 30, 2009, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Mar 30, 2009, 05:23 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 28, 2009, 03:26 PM) *

... Can I ask you, why do you try and complicate the issue of the nature of a non-entity through semantics?


Give me an example of how I "try to complicate the issue..."
Then feel free to suggest how I can uncomplicate things. I am willing to accept all the help I can get.

"There are plenty of good, decent, understandable and accepted words/terms for all of the phenomena that you try to circumvent by the term 'god'..."

Terms such as ...?
Lindsay, you do tend to throw various 'god' word varieties into your discussions, as though you are trying to create some new thesaurus entry for the OED. Also, you have introduced a plethora of *theisms for us to digest. Yet all seem to simply put more layers on top of the un-needed non-entity that I would prefer to keep in its place as 'god'.

The terms are diverse enough, many established and many evidenced. Example are matter, energy, universe, consciousness, mind, conscience, respect, hallucination, delusion, exclusion, prayer, fairy story, subversion, war etc. Without some new evidence for the nature of your semanticized 'gods' then I would prefer to leave the present terms alone.
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Mar 30, 2009, 05:23 AM) *
BTW, do you agree with Dawkins and Hitchins that all religions are all evil and should be wiped off the face of the globe?
Yes.
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Mar 30, 2009, 05:23 AM) *
Do you say the same is true of spirituality?
I'd need to understand what you mean by spirituality before I could answer.
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Lindsay
post Apr 02, 2009, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 10:03 AM) *

I'd need to understand what you mean by spirituality before I could answer.
I think of myself as a spiritual being who happens to have a mind and a body. The more trapped I am in my brain (my animal mind, drives and instincts) and body, the less free and less spiritual I am.

The more self-aware and more conscious I am of who I am, in relationship to others, things and the total ecology and cosmos--all within Being--the more free and spiritual I am.

If we were just animal we would not be having this dialogue, would we?

Now it is your turn! How do you think of yourself?
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Joesus
post Apr 03, 2009, 08:06 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Apr 03, 2009, 07:35 AM) *

The more self-aware and more conscious I am of who I am, in relationship to others, things and the total ecology and cosmos--all within Being--the more free and spiritual I am.


Self referral is always speculative, and encumbered by personal opinion and belief.
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Lindsay
post Apr 04, 2009, 02:50 PM
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HH, the following is a repeat of the revision I made, above:

WHAT IS SPIRITUALITY?
In my opinion, it is the human ability to know that we know--or do not know. I think of myself as a spiritual being who happens to have a mind and a body. The more trapped I am in my brain (my animal mind, drives and instincts) and body, the less free and less spiritual I am.

The more self-aware and more conscious I am of who I am, in relationship to others, things and the total ecology and cosmos--all within Being--the more free and spiritual I am.

If we were just animal we would not be having this dialogue, would we?

Now it is your turn!

How do you think of yourself?
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Lindsay
post Apr 08, 2009, 07:20 PM
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HH: Are you avoiding the answer I gave to the question
QUOTE
WHAT IS SPIRITUALITY?
In my opinion, it is the human ability to know that we know--or do not know. I think of myself as a spiritual being who happens to have a mind and a body. The more trapped I am in my brain (my animal mind, drives and instincts) and body, the less free and less spiritual I am.

The more self-aware and more conscious I am of who I am, in relationship to others, things and the total ecology and cosmos--all within Being--the more free and spiritual I am.

If we were just animal we would not be having this dialogue, would we?

Now it is your turn!

How do you think of yourself?


For more on spirituality check out:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=spirituality...lient=firefox-a
It is not just about religion.
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Lindsay
post Apr 09, 2009, 11:02 AM
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04/09/2009 13:51 In www.wondercafe.ca (UCC's forum) I am carrying out the following experiment: Using his book, I am having an imaginary dialogue with Richard Dawkins as follows:
======================
OK, assuming that Richard Dawkins speaks through his book, The GOD Delusion, I will dialogue with him as follows. To fit in with the dialogue format I will need to--hopefully, without changing the meaning of what he says--change some of the pattern of his response:

I BEGIN by looking at THE PREFACE

LGK: Richard, I have read your book. Many who have read it say that atheism, as you "preach it", is just as dogmatic as most religious belief. How say you?

RD: I hope that when people read Chapter 2, THE GOD HYPOTHESIS, they will be persuaded that this is not true (p.2). Keep in mind that 'the God Hypothesis' is a scientific hypothesis. It is not a statement of fact, but a theory of what could be.

A hypothesis is something assumed to be true because it seems to be a likely explanation . By the way, all of the arguments for God's so called actual existence are spectacularly weak.

I agree that, on the surface, it looks as though life--in all it rich diversity, with every species looking as though it was uncanningly designed--was designed by a human-like designer monotheists call God. But I hope that after you have read Chapters 3 and 4 you will be enlightened and know 'WHY THERE ALMOST CERTAINLY IS NO GOD' (p.111). The idea that life was designed by gods, or by what monotheists call the one true God is nothing but an illusion.

LGK: So the purpose of your book then is ...?

RD: If people, especially those who have had an unhappy experience in any of the organized religions, read my book with an open mind, I want and hope that they will come away with their consciousness raised.

LGK: So, like all spiritual leaders of all religions, and especially those we call evangelists, it seems to me you have a serious message designed to convert people, away from being religious, to atheism. You want people to have an aspiration, that is, to have an earnest desire, a longing, an ambition for something that they do not now have.

RD: And to know that they have a choice. For too long, people have been be raised with the idea that they have no choice but to believe in one religion or another. It is about time that people had their consciousness raised to the level that to be an atheist is a realistic aspiration, and a brave and splendid one. You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced, moral and intellectually fulfilled.. That is the first of my consciousness raising messages.

LGK: As an atheist, do you agreed with atheists who say that "religion is the root of all evil"?

RD: I wouldn't go that far, but I will say this: I believe that the world would do just as well, if not better, without it--like John Lennon puts it is his song, "Imagine".

LGK: So your four consciousness-raising messages are ... ?

RD:

1. It is okay, and even a good aspiration, to be an atheist.

2. Darwinian natural selection. With a far greater economy and with devastating elegance Darwin's theory explains the living world far better than pointing to a God-designer--an illusion.

3. I want people to stop the practice of childhood indoctrination--raising their children as Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, whatever.

4. My fourth consciousness raiser is atheist pride. Being an atheist is nothing to be apologetic about. On the contrary, it is something to be proud of. As an atheist, I stand tall to face the far horizon. Nearly always, atheism indicates a healthy independence of mind and indeed, a healthy mind.

MY DREAM IS that this book may help people come out. American polls indicate that there are far more atheist and agnostics out there than religious Jews and other particular religious groups.

LGK: You say: "If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." No wonder you add: "What presumptous optimism!"(p.5)

BTW, I wonder how many, trapped by what you call "the vice of religion" do you hope to convert?

RD: Of course, dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads are immune to argument ... their resistance built up over the years ... (whether by evolution or design). And the book banners are always with us. But I am hopeful that more and more open-minded people will read and follow what I have to say. At least no one will be able to say, 'I didn't know I could (make a choice).'

==================================

The rest of the Preface, pages 6,7, is filled with thanks to friends and colleagues.

==================================

Summarizing a book like this is a big project. If anyone would like to have go at summarizing, in you own way, Chapter 1--or even a few pages of it: A DEEPLY RELIGIOUS NON-BELIEVER, feel free to have a go.
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Lindsay
post Aug 06, 2015, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Mar 28, 2009, 12:37 AM) *

First off, welcome back Lindsay! Have you worked the tan out yet?

CODE. For me, 2009 passed on some time ago. Now Jump forward to 2014. It was early last Spring, at 84 (born Jan 14, 1930) that I had a serious health crisis which caused my hemo-globulin blood count to drop to a dangerously-low level.

It was then I consulted Dr. Zoltan Rona--a doctor who I first met and became friends with in 1991, when I was an active United Church of Canada, minister at Willowdale, north Toronto (1966 to Dec 31, 1993). He, and others in the healing arts often attended my lectures.

BTW, being well-trained in psychology, hypnotherapy--what I now call PNEUMA-therapy (meditation-like self-hypnosis)--and the like, I put it to work helping hundreds of people who, over three decades, came to hear my lecture series--PNEUMATOLOGY (mother of psychology). It was a three-part series--SOMA, PSYCHE AND PNEUMA--body, mind, spirit.

Over the years, on the practical level, I have used PNEUMA-therapy to help save lives. I have even used it to help very elderly people to die in peace and without pain.

Needless to say: Over the years, I have always used PNEUMA-therapy to help bring about a speedy recoveries for my wife and I, members of the family and our friends (free of charges). Many made personal appointments and came for personal reasons

https://highlevelwellness.ca/dr-rona/

By the urologist, Dr. Wayne Samsoondar, the one recommended by Dr. Rona, I was diagnosed with serious bladder cancer which had caused blood in the urine in early 2014. Dr. Rona was the one who referred me to the very helpful urologist/surgeon. On Dec 04, after major surgery. I began to heal, fast. Dr. Rona helped with all this. He was the one who prescribed the kind of nutrients needed.

Thanks to one and all: As of now, I feel as though I am almost there. THANK also G~0~D, the ONE within and around us, which is the Great Organizer & Deliverer of all our needs.

RevLindsay G King
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