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> On Peace, What is it and could we ever achieve it?
maximus242
post Sep 27, 2007, 06:26 PM
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It seems to me there is a slight paradox with the concept of peace.

Peace - Prehaps best defined as the collaboration and co-operation between all people, the cessation of violence between human beings.

Now, the problem is some people don't want peace. In fact, many of them profit from war. Then there is the difference of opinions on how to deal with problems. Some people think problems can be worked out politically, others feel violence is a good negotiator.

Heres the problem I see with peace. Individuality. People do not universally agree on things, because of this, disagreements will happen. Now one might think that you can simply get people to work out their disagreements. However, people happen to have disagreements on how to handle disagreements.

Is fighting and war not simply a result of disagreement or one imposing force onto another for one reason or another. If violence ended, could it not result in a much more sophisticated form of war, say... a war of the mind?

So is peace realistic and can we achieve it without destroying peoples individuality and freedom?
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lucid_dream
post Sep 27, 2007, 07:27 PM
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I was always taught that you should view peace as a means to new wars. Isn't this common knowledge?
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Enki
post Sep 28, 2007, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Sep 27, 2007, 06:26 PM) *

If violence ended, could it not result in a much more sophisticated form of war, say... a war of the mind?


Very good question.
I think it can result. The Wars of the Mind are very dangerous wars.
There is another form of dangerous war which, if you remember, I named Alchemical War.
It goes on, few note it. Very few note it. -(

>So is peace realistic and can we achieve it without destroying peoples individuality and freedom?

I think we always can if we choose to go by ways of the wisdom and develop a great patience and resilience in our actions, thinking and behavior. We fail in our efforts to bring together people of intelligence all around the world, we fail to integrate them into Minding Organizations, we fail to create stable communication infrastructure around the world etc.

I had so many hopes that MS Office 2007 with its Groove section will facilitate establishment of that dynamic creative atmosphere around the world. But unfortunately primitivism dominates over sagacity yet.

To come to the peace we should create system which will bring together creative and smart people all around the world. Gates and Buffett tried to push the processes, but things go too slow.
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Rick
post Sep 28, 2007, 02:30 PM
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Those are some fairly strong arguments in favor of unending war, but the struggle need not lead to gross violence. In fact, it is in everyone's long term interest to increase the amount of peace in the world. It's a historical fact that peace leads to prosperity (and conversely, war is hell). Just look at the state of the Iraqi populace after Bush and the Republigans brought FUBAR to Iraq via an illegal invasion.

What the wiser among us need to do is get the message out about where humanity's long term interests truly lie so we are not continually hoodwinked by the war profiteers.
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Enki
post Sep 28, 2007, 09:01 PM
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> historical fact that peace leads to prosperity

Yes, very strong argument.
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atha
post Oct 01, 2007, 07:58 AM
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" I hear people talking about peace and their faces are clouded with anger or with hatred or with scorn and disdain, with pride and arrogance. There are people who want to fight to bring about peace -- the most deluded souls of all. There will be no peace until murder is eliminated from the heart and mind. Murder is the apex of the broad pyramid whose base is the self. That which stands will have to fall. Everything which man has fought for will have to be relinquished before he can begin to live as man. Up till now he has been a sick beast and even his divinity stinks. He is master of many worlds and in his own he is a slave. What rules the world is the heart, not the brain. In every realm our conquests bring only death. We have turned our backs on the one realm wherein freedom lies. At Epidaurus, in the stillness, in the great peace that came over me, I heard the heart of the world beat. I know what the cure is: it is to give up, to relinquish, to surrender, so that our little hearts may beat in unison with the great heart of the world.

Over thirty years I had wandered, as if in a labyrinth. I had tasted every joy, every despair, but I had never known the meaning of peace. En route I had vanquished all my enemies one by one, but the greatest enemy of all I had not even recognized -- myself !

What man wants is peace in order that he may live. Defeating our neighbor doesn´t give peace any more than curing cancer brings health. Man doesn´t begin to live through triumphing over his enemy nor does he begin to acquire health through endless cures. The joy of life comes through peace, which is not static but dynamic. No man can really say that he knows what joy is until he has experienced peace. And without joy there is no life, even if you have a dozen cars, six butlers, a castle, a private chapel and a bomb-proof vault.

Epidaurus is merely a place symbol: the real place is in the heart, in every man´s heart, if he will but stop and search it. At Epidaurus I felt that there was nothing more to conquer: an ocean of peace lay before me. To be free, as I then knew myself to be, is to realize that all conquest is vain, even the conquest of self, which is the last act of egotism. To be joyous is to carry the ego to its last summit and to deliver it triumphantly.

Peace is not opposite of war any more than death is the opposite of life. The poverty of language, which is to say the poverty of man´s imagination or the poverty of his inner life, has created an ambivalence which is absolutely false. I am talking of course of the peace that passeth all understanding. There is no other kind. The peace which most of us know is merely a cessation of hostilities, a truce, an interregnum, a lull, a respite, which is negative. The peace of the heart is positive and invincible, demanding no conditions, requiring no protection. It just is."

From "The Colossus of Maroussi" by Henry Miller
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Flex
post Oct 01, 2007, 10:33 AM
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Fantastic passage! Thanks for posting~
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maximus242
post Oct 01, 2007, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 27, 2007, 09:27 PM) *

I was always taught that you should view peace as a means to new wars. Isn't this common knowledge?


I think the general population views peace as something of the highest ideals. Another problem is if we have such a heavily reduced death rate it will lead to the whole world becoming like China until weve exhausted all our resources leading to an untimely death.

In other words, peace could bring about an apocolypse of the human race.
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trojan_libido
post Oct 02, 2007, 05:26 AM
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So true Maximus, the ideals we seek are nothing more than the feminine nuturing aspect of humanity (vishnu/mother nature). It seems we have beautiful romantic dreams of Utopia that just can't work in reality. The wars we fight have been fought in micro and macrocosm since the process began, and no amount of philosophy will end this. There is always the destructive element, and the interactions between. There is just too much energy in the world for all violent reactions to cease (shiva).

We believe our consciousness is unique and has deviated so far from the animal kingdom that we just shouldn't fight anymore. But when the red cloud of anger descends on a man in power, the inevitable occurs. I feel the external situation, internal biology and previous experiences are in control of my body in extreme circumstances, not me making concious descisions. Instinct, and animal characteristics are still ever present, and we're fools to think we're above this.
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Enki
post Oct 02, 2007, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Oct 01, 2007, 03:18 PM) *

In other words, peace could bring about an apocolypse of the human race.



Quote from the recent speech of Senator Polpatin

“To provide peace we should

a) provide sustainable development in planetary scale and establish population control all over the world,

cool.gif expand all over the Universe and become equals among equals along with other races of the Universe.

On the other hand we cannot force e.g. muslims not to reproduce irregularly. We cannot modify their religion without God’s personal interference. Only God personally can edit Bible, Thora and Quran, I mean only in that case there will not be any resistance on behalf of the religious people. But as it seems to me it will be very difficult to persuade our God to make such an editorial work.

So we need more permanent solution to our problem.
So in order to ‘provide’ and ‘expand’ we need to create an Army of Robots and establish New World Order worldwide. A part of the 500,000,000 USD budget of the Pentagon can be directed on creation of the Imperial Army of Robots. Later on the Robots will be used in household just like PCs. Thus we can decrease planetary population and replace Quantity by Quality. Extermination of the retarded nations is a matter of debate.”

End of the quote from the recent speech of Senator Polpatin
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trojan_libido
post Oct 02, 2007, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE
Extermination of the retarded nations is a matter of debate
Lol, a little harsh Enki. Isnt Polpatin a puppet of the Imperial Empire, led by Darth Chava smile.gif
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Enki
post Oct 02, 2007, 10:56 AM
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Yap a little harsh. Se la vi mon sher ami.
Star Wars ontology. Sometimes useful indeed. smile.gif
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Rick
post Oct 02, 2007, 11:13 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 02, 2007, 06:26 AM) *
... But when the red cloud of anger descends on a man in power, the inevitable occurs. ...

It seems to me that the case of the Bush Repugligans invading Iraq was done in cold blood, not in anger.

First, there was nothing Iraq did to cause anger: they had nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorists, who were mostly Saudis.

Second, they were cooperating with the UN inspections in the matter of the non-existent WMDs.

Cold, calculating, almost reptilian, wasn't it?
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Enki
post Oct 02, 2007, 11:43 AM
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Salamanders have many colors and types.
Some reptilians are good and peaceful creatures.
Really.
Sometimes.
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Enki
post Oct 02, 2007, 11:50 AM
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Gentlemen let us avoid ehhhh, the terminology.

Republicans must go off from White House, all people of this planet understand that, the problem is how to persuade American people to vote for some other creatures.
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