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> Still waiting on Mind-Uploading Explaination of Support ...
Tone
post Apr 10, 2013, 11:21 AM
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Im still waiting for a logical explanation as to why anyone would be for, support, and be excited about mind uploading. Obviously it would create a copy and no consciousness would be transferred, because it doesnt make any sense.

Are people like Ray Kurzweil in psychological denial? or is it that they are philosophical zombies? Either would explain being in support of and desiring mind uploading, which makes no sense since it cant extend life.

Do they have an explanation yet for the paradoxes? like what if the upload occurs with the person still alive, or what if multiple uploads occur to 5 different android bodies?

Im still waiting? How can it be psychological denial since its so obvious? But if philosophical zombie non-conscious people existed that would be very creepy. Certainly a non-conscious person could be in support of uploading since they have no concept of what a sentient consciousness is, thus cant understand the problem with mind uploading.
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Jakare
post Apr 26, 2013, 01:02 PM
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Hi Tone! Nice to meet you again!

Some of my answers reflect the ideas from the book "Permutation City" by Greg Egan, from the movie "Ghost in the shell" and from Harry G. Frankfurt essay.

The working definition of person I am using: sentient being with second order desires and volitions and values to guide such desires and volitions.

QUOTE(Tone @ Apr 10, 2013, 08:21 PM) *

Im still waiting for a logical explanation as to why anyone would be for, support, and be excited about mind uploading. Obviously it would create a copy and no consciousness would be transferred, because it doesnt make any sense.

It seems like that your concept of what is or can be a "person" is restricted to humans, isn't it? If, ok it is a big if, your mind can be perfectly simulated in some kind of computer, with a simulated body in a simulated environment, why can not it be classed as a person? I would recommend Frankfurt's "Freedom of the will and the concept of a person" as a good reading and food for thought.
Why the copies can not be conscious?

Anyway, that copy will not be you, the one outside, but the one inside the computer will think and feel as if you waking up in the virtual reality. As soon as you do not share every single one of your experiences you start becoming different persons.

QUOTE(Tone @ Apr 10, 2013, 08:21 PM) *

Are people like Ray Kurzweil in psychological denial? or is it that they are philosophical zombies? Either would explain being in support of and desiring mind uploading, which makes no sense since it cant extend life.

I am not familiar with Ray's work, but let me ask, if something that is not biologically alive is a "person" then, can you be a "person" and be non-conscious at the same time? But I understand your concerns. If it was me and I had the chance to choose, I would prefer to be about to die before the uploading and to not be woken up in the physical world anymore. That way, when I wake up in the simulation there will be no continuity outside. There would not be 2 of me.
Just to clarify, I have no hopes of such technology to be developed in my life time.


QUOTE(Tone @ Apr 10, 2013, 08:21 PM) *

Do they have an explanation yet for the paradoxes? like what if the upload occurs with the person still alive, or what if multiple uploads occur to 5 different android bodies?

Then there will be 6 copies of you, 5 of them starting a new life and becoming different individuals as time pass. These 5 copies will be "persons" as you are and deserve to have human rights like you do. I fail to see any paradox there.


QUOTE(Tone @ Apr 10, 2013, 08:21 PM) *

Im still waiting? How can it be psychological denial since its so obvious? But if philosophical zombie non-conscious people existed that would be very creepy. Certainly a non-conscious person could be in support of uploading since they have no concept of what a sentient consciousness is, thus cant understand the problem with mind uploading.

I feel very awake and conscious but you are right, if I am a non-conscious person then there is no way I can understand what consciousness is. But I am a "person" by all means. I do not mean person only as in human (a human with only primary or maybe second order desires), but as sentient being with second order desires and volitions, and values to guide such desires and volitions. Can you be a "person" in that sense and not be conscious? Anything that enjoys "freedom of the will" and not only "freedom of action" is also a person, is alive and is conscious.

And last but not least, how do you know that our universe is not a simulation itself? I am not saying it is a simulation, I am saying it is a possibility we are not in a position to discard yet.
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mway
post Apr 26, 2013, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE(Tone @ Apr 11, 2013, 05:21 AM) *

Im still waiting for a logical explanation as to why anyone would be for, support, and be excited about mind uploading. Obviously it would create a copy and no consciousness would be transferred, because it doesnt make any sense.


Are you familiar with the brain replacement scenario? Imagine someone developed a digital neuron (which has already been done quite a few times), that although is completely different to a biological neuron, still exhibits the same input/output characteristics. Now say you took these artificial neurons, and one by one replaced each of your own over some duration (say over a year). From your statement above, you would likely posit that this person would be a copy and have no consciousness. So my questions are, at what point do you lose consciousness and become a copy? What is the fundamental difference between these digital equivalents, and biological neurons?

Just a caveat, obviously there are other functional components in the brain, and my description was a simplification, but hopefully you get the idea. Given the vast body of knowledge that is neuroscience, there is so far, no good reason to believe that this person would not just go on, as if nothing had really changed.
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