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> There is no free will
Hey Hey
post Nov 24, 2006, 05:35 AM
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eh?
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Flex
post Nov 24, 2006, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Nov 24, 2006, 05:35 AM) *

eh?


Well if you believe in the bible the clear and obvious answer would be correct--free will is non-existant. I actually believe in hard determinism myself but for other reasons...
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maximus242
post Nov 24, 2006, 03:38 PM
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Free will ultimatly comes down to the concept of random numbers.

If in fact, there are TRUELY random numbers in the universe, then in fact, we have free will. If not, then we do not have free will.

This all really breaks down to consciousness - neural networks - weights - random numbers. This would allow for random consciousness and in truth, free will. Consciousness is technically supposed to have a will of its own and the sub-conscious is supposed to be the super computer that obeys every command. If we are talking in strictly Psychological terms, there is a free will known as consciousness. If we are talking in terms of neuroscience - it has yet to be determined.

Flex, if you believe in the bible then you believe in free will. According to the Christians, god gave them free will, every other animal has no free will. This goes back to the adam and eve story where they take the apple against gods will because they have a will of their own and are thus free to make their own decisions.
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Trip like I do
post Nov 24, 2006, 03:58 PM
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xxxxxx wrong!!!!
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Flex
post Nov 24, 2006, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 24, 2006, 03:38 PM) *

Free will ultimatly comes down to the concept of random numbers.

If in fact, there are TRUELY random numbers in the universe, then in fact, we have free will. If not, then we do not have free will.

This all really breaks down to consciousness - neural networks - weights - random numbers. This would allow for random consciousness and in truth, free will. Consciousness is technically supposed to have a will of its own and the sub-conscious is supposed to be the super computer that obeys every command. If we are talking in strictly Psychological terms, there is a free will known as consciousness. If we are talking in terms of neuroscience - it has yet to be determined.

Flex, if you believe in the bible then you believe in free will. According to the Christians, god gave them free will, every other animal has no free will. This goes back to the adam and eve story where they take the apple against gods will because they have a will of their own and are thus free to make their own decisions.


If God is all powerful then I am a slave to his wishes and have no free will. Adam and Eve were in a perfect world according to the bible. They were not allowed to eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge. When they ate the fruit they got the power of thought and created good and evil. The Bible is retarded. It is saying things will be perfect as long as you don't think for yourself.
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Joesus
post Nov 24, 2006, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE
The Bible is retarded. It is saying things will be perfect as long as you don't think for yourself.

No, the Bible is a Translation of several peoples experiences with Christ and his Teachings.
What is interpreted or projected into the Bible from the level of consciousness of its Translators is then reinterpreted by those who are at a lesser state of consciousness than the Christed Teacher who led by example rather than by intellectual reasoning.

The Bible infers that perfection exists regardless of personal interpretations that are not connected to a single stable source.

QUOTE
Adam and Eve were in a perfect world according to the bible. They were not allowed to eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge.

Adam and Eve were born of a perfect source and were not forbidden to wander into sensory deluded beliefs of imperfection and duality. If it was forbidden and they were not given the choice they would not have strayed from omniscience into ignorance.

You really should study the Bible from a more objective point of view before attempting to make any claims of understanding its content, and what it represents.

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Culture
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Nov 24, 2006, 03:58 PM) *

xxxxxx wrong!!!!


And why so Trip? I never expected to see a post from you that just says "wrong"
I thought you were brighter than that.

The only way for our choices and actions to be within our control is for them to be causally determined by those internal mental states which are our reasons for choosing/acting in this way. And we know full well that we do not have any control over those.

To have control over them would require them to be causally determined by other previous states over which we also have control. It would seem that an infinite regress of causally determination is required, but we know that if we go back far enough we will find events over which we have no control at all (such as events before our birth) (Van Inwagen). The only way to break this chain of causal determination is to introduce an element of random indeterminacy, but I certainly don't have any control over the outcome of a randomly indeterminate event!

To the extent that my choices are causally determined by my reasons, they are not free. But to the extent that they are not causally determined by my reasons, they are not mine.

The fact that we have reasons affecting our choices does not by itself require them them to causally determine those choices. They only must causally determine them if those choices are to be free choices exemplifying our free will.

If my reasons (I use "reasons" here in a very broad sense) immediately prior to any choice causally determine the single specific choice that is actually made, then the choice is mine because it follows from my own reasons for that choice. But it is not free because it was the only choice that was causally possible for me in that particular situation, such that I couldn't have chosen otherwise (by causal necessity).

On the other hand, if those reasons do not causally necessitate which specific choice I will actually make (if say there were some intervening random causal indeterminacy between my reasons and choice), then my subsequent choice will indeed be free because there is a very real sense in which more than one choice was a real (causal) possibility. But the resulting choice will not be mine because it is separated from me and my reasons such that I have no influence whatsoever over which of the causally possible choices actually occurs.

If you can see a way out of this problem I'd love to hear it. You'll also be able to make quite a name for yourself in professional philosophy. Most professional philosophers (but certainly not all) agree that the kind of metaphysical free will ruled out by the above problem is not only impossible but is something that we are misguided in even wanting to have. But the only alternative is compatibilist free will, and I think that a "free will" that is consistent with the fact that there is only one causally possible future resulting from any given state of affairs is hardly deserving of the name.

The modern problem of free will is not that of choosing between free will and determinism, but rather that of showing how free will can even serve as a viable coherent option. For further online reading try
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwIntroIndex.htm

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Hey Hey
post Nov 25, 2006, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 25, 2006, 03:09 AM) *

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 24, 2006, 03:38 PM) *

Flex, if you believe in the bible then you believe in free will. According to the Christians, god gave them free will, every other animal has no free will. This goes back to the adam and eve story where they take the apple against gods will because they have a will of their own and are thus free to make their own decisions.

If God is all powerful then I am a slave to his wishes and have no free will. Adam and Eve were in a perfect world according to the bible. They were not allowed to eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge. When they ate the fruit they got the power of thought and created good and evil. The Bible is retarded. It is saying things will be perfect as long as you don't think for yourself.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 25, 2006, 03:41 AM) *

QUOTE
The Bible is retarded. It is saying things will be perfect as long as you don't think for yourself.

No, the Bible is a Translation of several peoples experiences with Christ and his Teachings.
What is interpreted or projected into the Bible from the level of consciousness of its Translators is then reinterpreted by those who are at a lesser state of consciousness than the Christed Teacher who led by example rather than by intellectual reasoning.

The Bible infers that perfection exists regardless of personal interpretations that are not connected to a single stable source.

QUOTE
Adam and Eve were in a perfect world according to the bible. They were not allowed to eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge.

Adam and Eve were born of a perfect source and were not forbidden to wander into sensory deluded beliefs of imperfection and duality. If it was forbidden and they were not given the choice they would not have strayed from omniscience into ignorance.

You really should study the Bible from a more objective point of view before attempting to make any claims of understanding its content, and what it represents.


Corr ... this religion thing really IS a virus. I had hoped that we might we might have a scientific discussion here, hence posting the issue in the General Consciousness Discussion Board, rather than the Theological ones.

Anyway ... all actions are reflex, eh?
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Culture
post Nov 25, 2006, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Nov 25, 2006, 10:22 AM) *

Corr ... this religion thing really IS a virus. I had hoped that we might we might have a scientific discussion here, hence posting the issue in the General Consciousness Discussion Board, rather than the Theological ones.

Anyway ... all actions are reflex, eh?


Hey Hey,

Before my previous post I had typed something similar to what you are saying, only not as polite.
I have tired from attempting to move/keep conversations here within the original context that it
was posted in, but still the religious overtures bleed through like stigmata on a leper.


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Joesus
post Nov 25, 2006, 11:24 AM
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Don't you really mean that Judgment sways ones mind toward what one can't see beyond?

Life is an expression or reflection of the mind.

This thread is a reflection of Thought not bound by any predisposed rule or direction.


Evidently You and Hey Hey don't agree with the freedom of others to express themselves outside of your own personal frame of mind.
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Culture
post Nov 25, 2006, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 25, 2006, 11:24 AM) *

Don't you really mean that Judgment sways ones mind toward what one can't see beyond?

Life is an expression or reflection of the mind.

This thread is a reflection of Thought not bound by any predisposed rule or direction.


Evidently You and Hey Hey don't agree with the freedom of others to express themselves outside of your own personal frame of mind.


Not at all Joesus. However it would be refreshing if people actually did step outside their own personal frame of mind and engage in dialogue. Not just regurgitate information but too *really* think. It is not an attack, but merely a nudge to stay on the topic/question posed.
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Hey Hey
post Nov 25, 2006, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 25, 2006, 07:24 PM) *

Evidently You and Hey Hey don't agree with the freedom of others to express themselves outside of your own personal frame of mind.

NO, you are wrong! I do agree with the freedom of others to express, but I DO NOT agree with what you are expressing and more specifically, I DO NOT agree with you expressing it (it being the tangential religious distraction) in this particular board. Get back to the point!
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Joesus
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:01 PM
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Freedom to regurgitate is the perfect way to stay on topic don't you think?

What is will? Is it not movement of energy that has some measure of intelligence?

Oh and agreement has nothing to do with freedom.

You might want to start another topic on what is agreement Hey Hey and stay with us here on what is being expressed rather than any preconcieved idea about what you think others are free to do according to your beliefs.
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Hey Hey
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 25, 2006, 08:01 PM) *

Freedom to regurgitate is the perfect way to stay on topic don't you think?

laugh.gif
QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 25, 2006, 08:01 PM) *

What is will? Is it not movement of energy that has some measure of intelligence?

Insects and some robots have it then?
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Culture
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 25, 2006, 12:01 PM) *

Freedom to regurgitate is the perfect way to stay on topic don't you think?



If the regurgitated information was actually on topic it would be excusable

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 25, 2006, 12:01 PM) *

What is will? Is it not movement of energy that has some measure of intelligence?


What do you think free will is? Do you think we have it?


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Flex
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE(Culture @ Nov 25, 2006, 10:36 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Nov 25, 2006, 10:22 AM) *

Corr ... this religion thing really IS a virus. I had hoped that we might we might have a scientific discussion here, hence posting the issue in the General Consciousness Discussion Board, rather than the Theological ones.

Anyway ... all actions are reflex, eh?


Hey Hey,

Before my previous post I had typed something similar to what you are saying, only not as polite.
I have tired from attempting to move/keep conversations here within the original context that it
was posted in, but still the religious overtures bleed through like stigmata on a leper.


I will use those religious overtures to defend my belief of hard determinism. Everything can be broken down into causality. Each "choice" a person makes is not so much a choice, but rather like adding vectors. Anytime one talks about free will, religion is bound to arise--it is easy to predict. Some other harder examples may come when someone is in a possition to say steal medication, or die. The individual weighs his/her options:

Steal and live......Don't steal*sociallytaboo+Punishment+Only a temporary fix
-------------->......+.....<-----<----------<-- = <-----

I think there is no such thing as free will, but rather people will do their own cost analysis weighing their options, and ALWAYS pick the option with the greatest benifit. One may have the perception of free will, but when it all comes down to it our decisions are always selfish.
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Joesus
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE
Insects and some robots have it then?

The relative distinctions of "who has it." is that on topic? The Topic heading is a statement, "There is no free will." The topic argument is, anything contrary to the finite statement such as insects and robots have it.

If you can't control something outside of your own direction of thought then is there something that exists free from your own direction and is the direction you choose free from that which you perceive?

QUOTE
If the regurgitated information was actually on topic it would be excusable

You only say that because you yourself can't detach from a particular point of view or thought stream.
You yourself are not free from the reactions that are caused by your own interpretations of reality i.e. the interpretation of the Topic statement "There is no Free Will."
I would make a suggestion that by the example of not meeting your expectations of Topic interpretation I am free from the limits of your attachment to my interpretations and expressions.

QUOTE
What do you think free will is? Do you think we have it?

It's not whether I believe, but whether you will allow me to believe that will set you and or me free in your own experience.

Will is simply awareness and it is not bound by anything other than perceptions of reality. It can be focused and directed with intent or desire.
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maximus242
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:50 PM
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Ooh, I just thought of something! What about when control over the body is relinquished through neuroscience and the consciousness becomes under the influence of a third party? Is free will eternal? can it be gained? can it be lost?

If we look to neuroscience, they have created a chip, which allows a person to control the sensory and motor functions of an animal. Which therefore bypasses the conscious will over the body and hands it to the operator (its being used by the US Navy and was featured on the discovery channel). Also, what about cult groups who have a great deal of influence over their members to the point where the leaders decision is always agreed with 100%, even if it conflicts with the morals of the person?

Do we have evidence here of loss or lack of free will, can someone have more or less free will/freedom?
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wrsteel
post Nov 25, 2006, 12:51 PM
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The approach I've seen on this thread thus far seems to be a "category error." Without properly defining a few parameters, the discussion can go on forever...and not solve a thing.

First, offer a definition of free will.

Thus far, I've seen nihilism, hermenuetics and even evolutionary philosophy offered in response to the dictate, "There is no free will."

So... What outside factors are being used to define "Lack of free will"?

Does free will mean individual sovereignty? If you've submitted yourself to an ideology, an agenda, an assumption, a preconception, etc., you most certainly do not have free will. if you've submitted yourself to another person's or group's code of honor and of conduct, your free will is also negatively impacted. The examples can go on almost endlessly. Gluttony, sloth, greed, addictions, blah, blah...also have a negative impact upon our free will.

Personally, I think that there is a form of "predestination" at work in the universe. I define the term under some rather well-known bits of science, however: Electromagnetism, thermodynamics, entropy, "gravity", etc. If you stick yer finger in a light socket, yer gonna get zapped. If you jump off a cliff, you're gonna die. If you live long enough, you're going to become old and decrepit, etc. if you don't play with electricity or jump off cliffs, you will increase your chances of living to become old and decrepit. If you do things without considering the consequences, you die young. The choice is yours. So, the questions is: Where does free will begin and where does it end?

Other factors should also be considered. Brain entrainment begins almost at conception and continues throughout your life. However, the plasticity of your brain is pretty well set by your late teens and early twenties. Early environment is a factor in how you make decisions for the rest of your life. DNA (genes) also makes a difference. Diet also impacts our development and thus our decision making abilities. Education and training also impact our decision making processes. External influences from our society have an impact as well. Do such things fall under lack of free will...or not?

On the other hand hand, I think that we can and do make individual choices that directly affect the world around us.

Predestination, according to both religion and evolutionary theory, can often be defined as nihilism. (Narcissism) Thus, if we have a choice, nihilism (predestination), as it is commonly defined, isn't a factor.

An interesting topic.
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maximus242
post Nov 25, 2006, 01:06 PM
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You make several assumptions which are philosophically invalid. First of all, how do you know the reality you are experiencing right now is not just a dream? How do you know that it is not a computer simulation? How can you confirm anything is real at all? You cant.

Where does free will begin and where does it end? It doesnt, free will implies freedom - freedom is by definition, without restriction. Thus for free will to have a beginning and an end, it would imply that this is not free will at all but a restricted set of choices. The bottom line it comes down to is this.

Are human neural patterns outcomes, predictable? If so then we have no free will and are simply reacting to events, of which our reaction has already been determined. If not then we are free to randomly make our independant decisions, reacting to each event in a unpredictable manner. That is the origin of free will, freedom of mind, not freedom of reality (though that surely should come along)
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Joesus
post Nov 25, 2006, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE
Ooh, I just thought of something! What about when control over the body is relinquished through neuroscience and the consciousness becomes under the influence of a third party? Is free will eternal? can it be gained? can it be lost?

You might want to put yourself in Stephen Hawkings shoes and ask "what is the essence of mind?". Is it affected by the limits that the body experiences or by limitations that others project be it mechanical or psychological.

Awareness is not limited to physical form while it shares the experience of habitation in form.
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trojan_libido
post Nov 27, 2006, 06:30 AM
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We have the perception of individuality and free will, which I find amazing enough, but there are many experiments that seem to show otherwise. Larger groups of people - cities, countries, religious and racial groups - seem to act in a way that is inevitable.

Our previous environment shaped our mind (personal history) and then our current environment is measured by that mind (personal choices). Even our hopes and dreams come directly from knowing the possibilities of life, and those possibilities are shown to us in the reflections of that life (TV, art, language, culture).

Since it seems to me that all factors come directly from the environment, I believe free will is nothing but self-delusion.
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Joesus
post Nov 27, 2006, 11:08 AM
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So you consider yourself stuck on a hamster wheel created by those who have been expiring on that same hamster wheel before you?
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maximus242
post Nov 27, 2006, 11:13 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Nov 27, 2006, 07:30 AM) *

We have the perception of individuality and free will, which I find amazing enough, but there are many experiments that seem to show otherwise. Larger groups of people - cities, countries, religious and racial groups - seem to act in a way that is inevitable.

Our previous environment shaped our mind (personal history) and then our current environment is measured by that mind (personal choices). Even our hopes and dreams come directly from knowing the possibilities of life, and those possibilities are shown to us in the reflections of that life (TV, art, language, culture).

Since it seems to me that all factors come directly from the environment, I believe free will is nothing but self-delusion.


Thats what we call Sociology.
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wrsteel
post Nov 27, 2006, 10:15 PM
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Boids and flocks...

http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/

From an evolutionary standpoint, it is a survival behavior.

...but...how do you explain hermits and iconoclastic behaviors?



Free will has yet to be defined here, I think...

Mental illness, disease and injury aside, if I drop a pencil, I can choose to let it lie there...or I can choose to pick it up. Ones or zeros. Off or on. Yes or no. Some scientists and researchers have reduced thought to a mere computation. But I make the choice. Ones or zeros. Off or on. Yes or no. The computation is mine to make.

On the macroscale, I can choose to join in with group behaviors - pet rocks, beanie babies, x-boxes, computers, churches, peer review - or I can choose to become something of a hermit and do my own thing. The choice is still my own.

If I join in with group behaviors, I become nothing more than another part of the flock of boids. My choices become limited. My thoughts are not my own.

Just thinking out loud, here.

Very interesting topic.
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Hey Hey
post Nov 27, 2006, 11:46 PM
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QUOTE(wrsteel @ Nov 28, 2006, 06:15 AM) *

The computation is mine to make.

Or is it? If I take the pencil I am advantaged - I am more attractive to the opposite sex since I now have a tool. If I leave it I risk losing a breeding partner. These types of statements are abundant possibilities that can be called upon through memory and experience and maybe some are more innate. Pressure from these experiences etc will cause a particular "decision". The "decision", then, is an illusion and the action is no more than a complex reflex. "You" do not make the choice; rather as a reductionist might say, "Shit happens."
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Joesus
post Nov 28, 2006, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE
If I join in with group behaviors, I become nothing more than another part of the flock of boids. My choices become limited. My thoughts are not my own.

If...you join then do you surmise you have no choice but to be sucked into the power of the force that sucks all into the flock? Are your beliefs your own or do you have any beliefs of your own, or are you capable of having beliefs of your own?

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trojan_libido
post Nov 28, 2006, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 27, 2006, 07:08 PM) *

So you consider yourself stuck on a hamster wheel created by those who have been expiring on that same hamster wheel before you?


I don't believe any of us are "stuck", but I believe some people are destined to live their lives in the same patterns. The people who redefine their lives and ideas are the people who contribute to the world. All that is required is the correct knowledge in the correct mind, and a little inspiration. The inspired person is then able to influence the world around him/her and create new patterns. The new pattern will always be based on the previous pattern(s), simply because thats how we assimilate, improve and use knowledge.

Individually we have the perception of free will, culturally we are on railroad tracks that are bound by the rules of the systems involved. The train on those tracks goes by the name of commerce.
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maximus242
post Nov 28, 2006, 11:39 AM
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Difficult to say, are you freely choosing to believe in free will or is it inevitable that you would believe in free will with the perception of choice?
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Flex
post Nov 28, 2006, 12:35 PM
Post #30


God
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 28, 2006, 11:39 AM) *

Difficult to say, are you freely choosing to believe in free will or is it inevitable that you would believe in free will with the perception of choice?


I am going to have to go with the ladder.
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