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> What is Enlightenment?, New thread on an old topic (see Best of BrainMeta)
Rick
post Jun 15, 2006, 11:28 AM
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From "A History of Transhumanist Thought" by Nick Bostrom:

"In his famous 1784 essay 'What Is Enlightenment?' , Kant summed it up as follows:

'Enlightenment is man's leaving his self-caused immaturity. Immaturity is the incapacity to use one's own understanding without the guidance of another. Such immaturity is self-caused if its cause is not lack of intelligence, but by lack of determination and courage to use one's intelligence without being guided by another. The motto of enlightenment is therefore: Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own intelligence!'"

This sounds to me to also be another argument for free will. The source paper in PDF format:

http://www.nickbostrom.com/papers/history.pdf

This post has been edited by Rick: Oct 10, 2007, 10:41 AM
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Hey Hey
post Jun 15, 2006, 11:53 AM
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Free will yes, but care not to forget collaboration and prior (other's) experience. Intelligence is not the only evolutionary unit. Also, the species is important and not just the individual.
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Hey Hey
post Jun 15, 2006, 11:56 AM
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Rick, do you think that free will will ever be possible knowing the nature of human competitiveness and intraspecies dominance traits? Can free will in isolation be of any value, outside of self-satisfaction? E.g. can a political prisoner have any free will value?
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lucid_dream
post Jun 15, 2006, 12:46 PM
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Kant has nothing to say over transhumanism or enlightenment. His usage of the term enlightenment does not resonate with what people today recognize as enlightenment. Just look at his definition!

And be forewarned, Nick Bostrom is a third-rate philosopher wannabe. But don't take my word for it. If you read his essays, you'll probably reach the same conclusion.
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Rick
post Jun 15, 2006, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jun 15, 01:46 PM) *
And be forewarned, Nick Bostrom is a third-rate philosopher wannabe. But don't take my word for it. If you read his essays, you'll probably reach the same conclusion.

If an Oxford faculty member isn't up to your standards, who, in your opinion, is a first rate philosopher?
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Hey Hey
post Jun 15, 2006, 04:26 PM
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You like Oxford, don't you Rick? Last time I was there I was pick-pocketed, but I have no bad feelings.

Re: Nick Bostrom, I'm always wary of youngsters (he's about 30) who are experts on everything. I do think he is too individualistic rather than socialistic wrt enlightenment.

Rick, please confirm, you recently gave the impression that you had given up on expanded consciousness, yet you revitalize transhumanism here. Do you think they are not connected? Or do you think that the latter could (is) happening prior to the other? Or what? Aren't both possible mechanisms towards enlightenment?
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Guest
post Jun 17, 2006, 08:54 AM
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From Gross Mental to Supramental

The Gross mental plane is the level of intellect which is caught up in and affected by the physical level of being, the Concrete Mind.
The Subtle mental plane is the level of intellect which is involved with emotional and psychic realities. This is the level of what Jung called the Ego -- the conceptual consciousness or the sense of limited self.
In this respect, the four Jungian Ego functions of thinking, feeling, intuition and sensation are different transformations of the same mental nature.
The Higher Causal plane is represented in Buddhist cosmology by reference to dhyana or samadhi, each corresponding to Formless Reality, or the reality beyond the form.
The Supercausal mental plane is the plane which transcends conditions -- it is Light, or Shunya.
No man can become a thinker of significance without entering the Subtle mental, and further, the Supermind.
Brain is the physical plane. Mind is the subtle plane. Higher mind is in Silence -- there is Higher Truth hidden beyond senses and thinking, beyond the reliance on the empirical data of senses.
The Silence of the mind is the door to the Supermind.
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Guest
post Jun 17, 2006, 04:43 PM
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Consciousness is born at the Causal plane or at the level of the archetypes...
Beyond that level there is no consciousness -- just pure Intelligence, pure vibration, the symphony of the spheres ...
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Guest
post Jun 18, 2006, 04:47 AM
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HI, Dianah !

There´s a beautiful website: http://www.starchildglobal.com
Check it out !
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cerebral
post Jun 18, 2006, 10:26 AM
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Guest, are you saying that Dianah is Celia Fenn from http://www.starchildglobal.com/aboutcelia.html ? How would you know this?
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Hey Hey
post Jun 18, 2006, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 18, 01:47 PM) *

HI, Dianah !

There´s a beautiful website: http://www.starchildglobal.com
Check it out !

How enlightened is a person who doesn't even know that, due to astronomical changes, the astrological signs have changed? The stars (astrological) are about as real as the stars you see when hit on the head. But crystals, well I have to admit to hearing the radio on a crystal set.

Let's stick to science, evidence and imagination, not witchcraft, anecdotes and hallucination.
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Guest
post Jun 19, 2006, 06:43 AM
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"The senses, the mind and the intelligence veil the real knowledge...
The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses, intelligence is still higher than the mind, and the soul is even higher than the intelligence.
Thus knowing oneself to be transcendental to material senses, mind and intelligence, one attains the Higher Self and the Knowledge of the Absolute."

Bhagavad Gita

Who is the Knower ? Who is the Seer ? Who is the Doer ?
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kortikal
post Jun 19, 2006, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE(Dianah @ Jun 19, 09:10 AM) *

Who is the Knower ?……I


Who is the Seer ? …….AM


Who is the Doer ?”……What


Heart, mind, intellect…sensing, thought, reflection…

The answer, is within the question.


Are these Enigma lyrics?
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Rick
post Jun 19, 2006, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jun 15, 05:26 PM) *
Rick, please confirm, you recently gave the impression that you had given up on expanded consciousness, yet you revitalize transhumanism here. Do you think they are not connected? Or do you think that the latter could (is) happening prior to the other? Or what? Aren't both possible mechanisms towards enlightenment?

How did I give the impression I had given up on expanded consciousness? Consciousness is good and more is better. According to Edward O. Wilson (inventor of socio-biology) in his book Consilience, the human race has stopped evolving. However, transhumanism is still a possibility in isolated pockets, especially if space colonization ever becomes real.
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Guest
post Jun 19, 2006, 12:59 PM
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"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it it, infinite.
For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern."

William Blake

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Guest_Dianah_*
post Jun 19, 2006, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 19, 12:59 PM) *

"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it it, infinite.
For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern."

William Blake


so true...one must move into the 'cave' in which to expand perception, through underderstanding that which creates the "chinks" within the cave.
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Guest
post Jun 20, 2006, 12:58 PM
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We do not see the world as it is, but as we are, through the narrow chinks of our concepts.
Concepts stand in the way of transcendental experience. We have to get out of the confining, binding concepts, to get out of the cavern, to have a vast view of the world.
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Guest
post Jun 21, 2006, 05:59 AM
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The main difference between western and eastern approaches, Dianah, is precisely this: going into the mind, unravelling the mind ( like in psychoanalysis ) and transcending the mind altogether,
getting free from the mind.
When you enter the world of Zen there is no mind -- it is freedom from the mind; the chatter, the noise of the mind has simply ceased, hence the door of the Being is open, the door of Eternity.
Dhyana simply means a state of no-mind -- it is a deep silence in which all thoughts have disappeared; there are no ripples on the lake of consciousness and it functions like a mirror reflecting all that is.
One can go on unravelling, disentangling the mind endlessly ( the western approach ), or one can get out of the bottle of the mind ... like in a Zen koan -- The goose is out !
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Guest
post Jun 24, 2006, 12:37 PM
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Rainbow Energies -- http://www.crystalinks.com/rainbows.html
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lucid_dream
post Jun 24, 2006, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 24, 01:37 PM) *


From the site: "Reality is created by sound, light, and color frequencies creating grids - a rainbow bridge if you will - that allows human consciousness to eXperience through spiraling consciousness levels of awareness based on the patterns of creation".

This is enlightening how?
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Guest
post Jun 25, 2006, 06:24 AM
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Spiritual Intelligence -- http://www.spiritualintelligence.com/spirituality.htm

Spiritual Power -- http://vitalcoaching.com/spirit/spiritual_power.htm
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Leto
post Jul 17, 2006, 03:49 PM
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your discussion of enlightenment is paradoxical to itself. if you truly wanted to find out what it was you would search for yourself. you search for a title not for what it actually is. "Enlighten the people generally and tyranny and oppresion of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day"-Thomas Jefferson We know that enlightenment is something we should search and strive for so why do we dwindle on topics of what it truly is when we could look for ourselves and the facade of the word 'enlightenment' would drift away and we would, ironically, be enlightened. talking about it may expand thought, but it shall never answer your question. i know that this is probably taking away from the point of philisophical issues and debates but truly, the point of philosophy is to philosophize about issues that man may never find the answer to. mon dieu

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Hey Hey
post Jul 18, 2006, 06:25 AM
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QUOTE(Leto @ Jul 18, 12:49 AM) *

the point of philosophy is to philosophize about issues that man may never find the answer to. mon dieu

Oh, come on, the point of philosophy is that humans WANT to find answers to questions and hence use their brains to attempt to explain phenomena, especially (nowadays), but not exclusively, scientific. Obviously some questions cannot have definitive answers as they, for example, might rely on human opinion that is diverse and related to upbringing, education, intelligence(!*?), state of health, religion, sex, age, etc, etc, that cannot be standardized, or even visualised so, whatever vast period of civilization time is imagined. And, of course, don't forget that not all questions are as big as 'what is consciousness'. Many (most?) are small but answers to them as a multitude play an incredibly important role in human well-being and progress. And more, the inching forward of knowledge and understanding, over time produces more satisfactory explanations and understanding.

Do you understand the reason why higher (research) degrees are most often still called PhD's, whatever area of research they encompass? It is because of the philosophical nature of enquiry, the looking for explanations for natural (eg biological, cosmological) and artificial (eg AI) phenomena (debatable whether these latter exist as a fundamental category if they are the result of the output of natural phenomena, such as human activity), the solutions to issues that might enable the use or application of phenomena (eg ethics) an so on. Unfortunately, philosophical methods are becoming more and more rigid and stifling as they are taught with the rest of the mainstream, that has no time for imagination (what I like to call the "daydream approach"). Your comment above adds to this restrictive practice and you need to learn more about human nature and human ability. It is as though you have a diminished philosophical ability as one might find with a theological approach to the world and humankind.

I won't even try to reply to your comment through a pure versus applied approach in human enquiry, that is itself so important, otherwise we might not even be communicating using the very medium we are.
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lucid_dream
post Jul 18, 2006, 07:26 AM
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QUOTE(Leto @ Jul 17, 04:49 PM) *
your discussion of enlightenment is paradoxical to itself. if you truly wanted to find out what it was you would search for yourself. you search for a title not for what it actually is. "Enlighten the people generally and tyranny and oppresion of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day"-Thomas Jefferson We know that enlightenment is something we should search and strive for so why do we dwindle on topics of what it truly is when we could look for ourselves and the facade of the word 'enlightenment' would drift away and we would, ironically, be enlightened. talking about it may expand thought, but it shall never answer your question. i know that this is probably taking away from the point of philisophical issues and debates but truly, the point of philosophy is to philosophize about issues that man may never find the answer to. mon dieu

I agree with Hey Hey. This post is utter nonsense! If you are incapable of assimilating contradictions which belie greater truths or of appreciating the point of worthwhile philosophical dialogue, then you should go HERE

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Hey Hey
post Jul 18, 2006, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jul 18, 04:26 PM) *

If you are incapable of assimilating contradictions which belie greater truths or of appreciating the point of worthwhile philosophical dialogue, then you should go HERE

Hey, what did Barney do to you? ( wink.gif )
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Leto
post Jul 19, 2006, 07:43 AM
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I merely found it sad that you should waste your breath on such a topic. ironically i was trying to enlighten you. just because im nine does not give you any reason to associate me with 'barney'. i was trying to show you how pointless your efforts are. most philosophy generally is, but at least some philosophy is used to enlighten people. it is used to strengthen their beliefs and calm their inner soul. you do neither.
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lucid_dream
post Jul 19, 2006, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE(Leto @ Jul 19, 08:43 AM) *

I merely found it sad that you should waste your breath on such a topic. ironically i was trying to enlighten you. just because im nine does not give you any reason to associate me with 'barney'. i was trying to show you how pointless your efforts are. most philosophy generally is, but at least some philosophy is used to enlighten people. it is used to strengthen their beliefs and calm their inner soul. you do neither.


Being a child you should know that you still have a lot of learning, experiencing, and growing up to do before passing judgment on others. Presuming any type of enlightenment as a child is naive.

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Leto
post Jul 20, 2006, 02:53 PM
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why is it that because the words that were spoken have come out of the mouth of a child, that they are disregarded. as for learning i have commited to memory some of the major works of Augustine, Aristotle, Voltaire, Aquinas, Locke and so on. i have experienced more in my short life than i have wished to. i had turned to philosophy in order to understand the trials and tribulations that i have undergone. i turned to philosophy for... enlightenment. the kind of enlightenment of which you speak of, you shall never reach. You yourselves are searching for self enlightment. this enlightenment will give you no void, it shall only give you peace of mind which is more than most of us can hope for. this pure consciousness of which you speak of, this state of such resolute unthought in which the mind can look upon, but not immerse itself in, the vast expanse of knowledge, seems to be a parody of the rooted western civilizations views. keep in mind these people devoted their lives to finding this type of enlightenment, and i have a hint that you are not, nor will ever, be willing to do this. you are trying to grasp the knowledge that an entire civilization devoted their lives to for thousands of years. divest yourself of this thought that you may understand what enlightenment is, and maybe just maybe, you will be one step closer to reaching that inner peace that has also been awarded the title enlightenment. as for the growing up i have to do, maybe in some sense i am as grown up as i'll ever be. Maybe it takes a childs naivity to truly understand something. However lucid dream, you are right in the sense that i am still young. i shall conglomerate knowledge and experience as greedily as the thirsting soil will soak up the rain. i will comb through the knowledge and experience i have already obtained in order to better understand it. but i was not passing judgement for who am i to judge another. i was only hoping that perhaps you would see that in order to find enlightenment, it would be better to look inside yourself instead of on the words of another.
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Guest
post Jul 20, 2006, 03:51 PM
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You're still not convinced. But keep working on it, I'm sure you'll get there.
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lucid_dream
post Jul 20, 2006, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE(Leto @ Jul 20, 03:53 PM) *
i was only hoping that perhaps you would see that in order to find enlightenment, it would be better to look inside yourself instead of on the words of another.


If you read any of the many posts I've made over the subject, you would know where I stand and not set up straw men and false arguments. You have a lot of learning and experiencing to do, regardless of how much you think you've experienced. You believe you are the only one who understands, and I'm here to tell you that you're naive and foolish, but by all means, persist in your quest. Hopefully your eyes will open at some point so long as you don't always remain focused on your ego.

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