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> Enlightenment An Ultimate Aim?
Shawn
post Jan 23, 2006, 12:51 AM
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[to continue a discussion started with Steve Lance]

When your experience grows, and you become a part of all you experience, and there is no clear boundary where you end and others begin, where is there room for an ego? And where do we go when we've outgrown our old egos? Do we create new ones or does something else happen?

Assume for a moment that you've reached the ideal state of enlightenment (some of us may be there already, but nevermind that). You reside in an expanded, godly, egoless state of mind in which you are one with everything you experience. What now? Is this it? Is this really the goal of life you desire?

Perhaps all living things have a will to transcend themselves (which appears exceptionally in man, at times). In such a case, there is no ideal state of enlightenment. In such a case, quality of life is measured in terms of striving and strength to transcend oneself, and the notion of remaining content with a state of enlightened Being is seen as a weakness precisely because the act of Becoming (and striving and transcending oneself) is noticably absent.

Or perhaps it's no coincidence that age is commonly believed to be correlated with 'wisdom', and that the older we get, the more 'mellow' we tend to become. That is, we become more mellow as we age because we become wiser?

There seems to be a flaw with that logic. The point being that we should all strive for enlightening experiences, but not remain content with the enlightenment thereby attained, because in the end, it's all relative.
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Trip like I do
post Jan 23, 2006, 08:46 PM
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When your experience grows, and you become a part of all you experience, and there is no clear boundary where you end and others begin, where is there room for an ego?  And where do we go when we've outgrown our old egos?  Do we create new ones or does something else happen?



yes, traditional boundaries are collapsing

people are becoming aware (conscious) of subliminal unconscious affective triggers....and a new individual/collective cognitive paradigm is on the precipice of becoming globally actualized.

....and it is about time.

"Or perhaps it's no coincidence that age is commonly believed to be correlated with 'wisdom', and that the older we get, the more 'mellow' we tend to become. That is, we become more mellow as we age because we become wiser?"

Why?

We slow down and observe. The slower matter moves = the slower information travels = the more one observes/perceives.

"There seems to be a flaw with that logic. The point being that we should all strive for enlightening experiences, but not remain content with the enlightenment thereby attained, because in the end, it's all relative. "

Relative, but an inevitable occurance with cognitive development, whether that potentiality becomes actualized is the key.
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Rick
post Jan 24, 2006, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE(Shawn @ Jan 23, 12:51 AM) *

You reside in an expanded, godly, egoless state of mind in which you are one with everything you experience. What now? Is this it? Is this really the goal of life you desire?


You go down the mountain and seek justice for the people.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 08, 2006, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jan 24, 11:00 AM) *

QUOTE(Shawn @ Jan 23, 12:51 AM) *

You reside in an expanded, godly, egoless state of mind in which you are one with everything you experience. What now? Is this it? Is this really the goal of life you desire?


You go down the mountain and seek justice for the people.


Why?

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Rick
post Feb 09, 2006, 10:44 AM
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That is an exremely fair question and deserves a fair answer:

For self-gratification. There is no nobler cause than justice, which embodies principles of (primarily) fairness, liberty, honesty, (and secondarily) responsibility, and community.

Ensuring these values are realized (which brings justice) requires effective government, and there are myriad ways for individuals all over the world to work to improve their governments.

The self-gratification part comes from Shawn's quote above: "You reside in an expanded, godly, egoless state of mind in which you are one with everything you experience." In accord with my description elsewhere of the identity principle, then, bringing justice to the people is bringing justice to one's self.

Here follows some elaboration on the values mentioned above:

Fairness

Fair play means a level playing field and that no class of people is superior to any other in terms of civic rights and obligations. Every person should pay his or her fair share of the investment necessary for effective government and community life.

Effective Government

The just and necessary role of government is spelled out in the preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America. These proper duties include establishing courts and police, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of freedom for all. Effective government means an efficient government that doesn't waste or misappropriate the people's money. It also means doing well the things that only a government can do well, such as providing public infrastructure and regulating businesses to prevent exploitation of consumers and the environment.

Liberty

The ninth and tenth amendments to the Constitution provide that rights not given to the government are reserved for the people. The government has no right to inspect or control the interiors of people's bodies. The right to privacy is implied by the fourth amendment: people shall be secure in their persons, papers, and effects.

Honesty

People should be honest in their dealings with each other; the government should be honest and open with the people. Government information that is intended to deceive or mislead is wrong. Hiding non-private government information from the people is wrong and promotes corruption.

These values are described related to the Constitution of the USA, but the principles are universal. Portions of this are excerpted from a political analysis I performed at the request of the Torrance Democratic Club in Torrance, California, USA.

This post has been edited by Rick: Feb 09, 2006, 10:47 AM
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Laz
post Mar 15, 2006, 10:08 AM
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When you learn, it seems that you end up wanting to teach. It is said that when you teach you really learn what it's all about ;0)

The urge to share your lessons learned is incredibly strong, but possibly futile as we all seem to have to learn the hard way.

PS: a godly state cannot be a egoless one ;0)
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Rick
post Mar 15, 2006, 05:05 PM
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Everyone must learn at least some lessons the hard way, but the wise man (and woman, of course) learns from the mistakes of others.
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post Mar 16, 2006, 06:07 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 08, 06:20 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Jan 24, 11:00 AM) *

QUOTE(Shawn @ Jan 23, 12:51 AM) *

You reside in an expanded, godly, egoless state of mind in which you are one with everything you experience. What now? Is this it? Is this really the goal of life you desire?


You go down the mountain and seek justice for the people.


Why?


I don't know about you Lucid, but to me, the path to enlightenment takes me through the well being of everything and everyone that can be better-off. If Oneness is our ultimate goal, therefore, the suffering of others (of those who can suffer) becomes also my suffering. So, untill the very last neuron in the universe may benefit from my entering into this state of enlightening, then I may not enter into it either.
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Guest
post Mar 16, 2006, 07:25 AM
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Hey Max, I like your style :0)

Not sure about your logic though, it's a bit wavey. To take repsonsibility for yourself and everyone around you is a good thing and part of the journey, but to deny yourself enlightenment for what ever reason is martyrdom. There's only one trick to becoming enlightened and that's to shut down your thinking and just experience the things around you, some call it meditation.

I'm with shawn on the "what now?" thing, enlightenment is lonely :0(

I can't quote Alan Watts but he had a great way of looking at this problem and said something like:
As you learn more and more the world becomes less and less mysterious, ultimately there is nothing left to learn and you are a god, the world meanwhile becomes a bore. The way out of this is to start to forget things so that they become interesting again, and the more you forget the more mysterious the world is.
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Laz
post Mar 16, 2006, 07:26 AM
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Ooops, forgot to log in. The mysterious response was me :0)
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post Mar 16, 2006, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 16, 07:25 AM) *

to deny yourself enlightenment for what ever reason is martyrdom.


Thanks for the reply, Laz. I'm not willing to be anyone's martir. I'm just stating the obvious. I just think we're not in the same page on the definition of a 'state of enlightnenment'. What's your definition of it?
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Guest
post Mar 16, 2006, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Mar 16, 10:54 AM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 16, 07:25 AM) *

to deny yourself enlightenment for what ever reason is martyrdom.


Thanks for the reply, Laz. I'm not willing to be anyone's martir. I'm just stating the obvious. I just think we're not in the same page on the definition of a 'state of enlightnenment'. What's your definition of it?


Hmmm, definitions are a lot like the trap of science. Nail it down, stretch it out, show it to everybody and they will learn, damn them they will learn.

I'm sorry to say, and i mean this with all honesty, Enlightnement is a state of knowing your enlightened.

No book, cd, website, chat room, or forum message is going to give you the feeling of being enlightened, you have to live it, know it, and when you share it, others will see it in you.

Now this ain't a cop out either, so don't be giving me none of that hippie bashing vagueness crap. This is propper philosophy, up there with the best of them.

Actually reminds me, i keep coming across Einstein quotes on the internet and theres a lot more to him than i ever gave him credit for ironic!
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lucid_dream
post Mar 16, 2006, 12:39 PM
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enlightenment is more than just believing you're enlightened. Enlightenment has its basis in raw experience, not belief.
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Laz
post Mar 16, 2006, 01:02 PM
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[cheappun]But do you believe that?[/cheappun]
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shivamurti
post Mar 17, 2006, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 16, 12:14 PM) *

QUOTE(code buttons @ Mar 16, 10:54 AM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 16, 07:25 AM) *

to deny yourself enlightenment for what ever reason is martyrdom.


Thanks for the reply, Laz. I'm not willing to be anyone's martir. I'm just stating the obvious. I just think we're not in the same page on the definition of a 'state of enlightnenment'. What's your definition of it?


Hmmm, definitions are a lot like the trap of science. Nail it down, stretch it out, show it to everybody and they will learn, damn them they will learn.

I'm sorry to say, and i mean this with all honesty, Enlightnement is a state of knowing your enlightened.

No book, cd, website, chat room, or forum message is going to give you the feeling of being enlightened, you have to live it, know it, and when you share it, others will see it in you.

Now this ain't a cop out either, so don't be giving me none of that hippie bashing vagueness crap. This is propper philosophy, up there with the best of them.

Actually reminds me, i keep coming across Einstein quotes on the internet and theres a lot more to him than i ever gave him credit for ironic!

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shivamurti
post Mar 17, 2006, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE(shivamurti @ Mar 17, 05:50 PM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 16, 12:14 PM) *

QUOTE(code buttons @ Mar 16, 10:54 AM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 16, 07:25 AM) *

to deny yourself enlightenment for what ever reason is martyrdom.


Thanks for the reply, Laz. I'm not willing to be anyone's martir. I'm just stating the obvious. I just think we're not in the same page on the definition of a 'state of enlightnenment'. What's your definition of it?


Hmmm, definitions are a lot like the trap of science. Nail it down, stretch it out, show it to everybody and they will learn, damn them they will learn.

I'm sorry to say, and i mean this with all honesty, Enlightnement is a state of knowing your enlightened.

No book, cd, website, chat room, or forum message is going to give you the feeling of being enlightened, you have to live it, know it, and when you share it, others will see it in you.

Now this ain't a cop out either, so don't be giving me none of that hippie bashing vagueness crap. This is propper philosophy, up there with the best of them.

Actually reminds me, i keep coming across Einstein quotes on the internet and theres a lot more to him than i ever gave him credit for ironic!

So here is where to start INLIGHTENMent i call it as it speaks thru my mouth to these fingers,we as beings are somehow conned into believing we are doing the work of living ,that some how we control the action here,some how we reach our goals thAt we picked we are not doing anything , we are not doing this is the ILLUSION WE DO IN THE illusion we listen to the speakers [doing]we follow the words in our
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Dan
post Mar 17, 2006, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE(shivamurti @ Mar 17, 05:59 PM) *

... we are not doing anything , we are not doing

That 'INLIGHTENMent' that speaks through your fingers, that is the doer. Enlightnment is when you realize yourself to be that 'INLIGHTENMent' and become the force behind doing.
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rhymer
post Mar 18, 2006, 03:59 PM
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general comment.

It is far better to use 'canal' thinking when seeking enlightenment.

You can then rise to greater heights in your thinking than when charging in a turbulent stream which simply goes downhill.

If barges can go higher, so can man!
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Guest
post Mar 18, 2006, 11:20 PM
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Enlightenment is interesting.

It's not uncommon for a guru/enlightened person to not have flawless conduct.

Yet there can be non-enlightened people who have as little flaws or even less.

Makes you think.
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Neural
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:12 AM
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you will know them by their works
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Guest
post Mar 19, 2006, 09:51 AM
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Yeah Neural but what's interesting is that those people have experienced enlightenment... how and why do non-enlightened people surpass them? Maybe the experience of enlightenment is not what it's made to be, it's not _that_ essential. Just digging here...
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Laz
post Mar 19, 2006, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 19, 05:51 PM) *

how and why do non-enlightened people surpass them?


What's that mean then?
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Guest
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 19, 05:51 PM) *

how and why do non-enlightened people surpass them?

QUOTE(Laz @ Mar 19, 11:15 AM) *

What's that mean then?

I was still referring to character flaws. The phenomenon of non-enlightened having less than some of the 'lightened'.
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Guest
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:14 PM
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If you presented the question to me; like I said, I don't know the answer. Maybe their brains work better overall and they just haven't seen the scenery from the mountain top of experiences.
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Neural
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:21 PM
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I would not expect enlightened people to be free of character flaws. Enlightenment and personality disorders seem separate things.
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mayonaise
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:43 PM
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Okay... now why meditate then?
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Neural
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:46 PM
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because meditation dissolves dualistic modes of consciousness. Meditation can be therapeutic if it makes us aware of our mental conditioning and filters to apply to sensations but so can many other nonmeditative things.
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Neural
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 19, 12:14 PM) *

If you presented the question to me; like I said, I don't know the answer. Maybe their brains work better overall and they just haven't seen the scenery from the mountain top of experiences.



enlightenment is not about seeing things from a particular perspective, but from all perspectives and even beyond perspectives
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Neural
post Mar 19, 2006, 12:54 PM
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in our current world, particularly true of the West, we tend to apply focused attention to identify subject-object (self-other) relations almost continuously during our awake moments. Meditation allows us to switch from focused attention of objects to global diffuse attention of the field supporting objects. What we are normally aware of in moments of focused attention is a figure in a ground (figure-ground relationship). Try to shift your attention to the ground without it becoming figure. Can't do it except through diffuse global attention, which involves breaking dualistic modes of thought. Give it a try.
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Laz
post Mar 19, 2006, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 19, 08:12 PM) *

I was still referring to character flaws. The phenomenon of non-enlightened having less than some of the 'lightened'.


But you said:
QUOTE
how and why do non-enlightened people surpass them? [the enlightened]


That's something different altogether. Enlightened, non-enlightened surpassing eachother in a conflict??? why surpassing? This smacks of bitterness and jealousy but there is no reason for it?

Where are you coming from Guest? (and i don't mean where do you live!)
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