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> Meaninglessness of all views ie mathematics science, All products of human thinking end in meaninglessness ie self-contradiction
nightrover
post Aug 14, 2007, 04:53 AM
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What do you think of this view that all views entail meaninglessness ie self contradiction. Even nihilism and scepticism existentialism entail meaninglessness. All products of human thought entail meaninglessness -even meaninglessness entails meaninglessness

COLIN LESLIE DEAN argues an epistemological meaninglessness that claims all views all philosophies all philosophers entail meaninglessness All philosophers from the beginig such as Plato Aristotle to Nietzsche Kant Wittgenstein and all others all entail meaninglessness. All products of human thinking entail meaninglessness. Even meaninglessness entails meaninglessness Thesis and its antithesis entail meaninglessness ie the negation of the negation of the negation ad infinitum

All his books are available free of the net

Epistemological meaninglessness is different to and undermines skepticism and nihlism and claims these views entail meaninglessness. Epistemological meaninglessness has its greatest advocate in the philosopher Colin Leslie Dean. According to Dean's version epistemological meaninglessness entials logically via the rules of logic that all our concepts, all morals all religions, ideas of good , evil, notions of freedom, democracy all our categories, all our ideas, all theses, all antitheses all philosophies all epistemologies, all ethics, all ontologies, skepticism, nihlism, all metaphysics, even logic itself etc in other words all views, are meaningless, epistemologically- as they all logically entail meaninglessness ie self-contradiction and paradox.


"Contentless Thought: Case Study in the Madhyamika demonstrations of the meaninglessness of all views".

The logic reduces all views to meaninglessness even mathematics and science

Dean claims that mathematics and science are meaningless in that they entail or collaspes into self-contradiction and paradox. It is claimed that there are paradoxes at the heart of mathematics and science that make them meaningless. The mystery become that even though work and creates a pc or rockets to the moon they are logically not true . So how can they create useful things when by the laws of logic they are false

"The absurdities or meaninglessness of mathematics and science: paradoxes and contradiction in mathematics and science which makes them meaningless, mathematics and science are examples of mythical thought, case study of the meaninglessness of all views"


. What this meaninglessness means is a question that is dependent upon other views i.e. logic being an epistemic condition of truth or it not being an epistemic condition of truth.. In other words to draw a conclusion form the reduction to meaninglessness of a view/views one must assume some other epistemological ontological or metaphysical position or assumption. Now logic will also reduce these positions or assumptions to meaninglessness such that we in effect have nothing epistemologically to say at all in regard to what the reduction to meaninglessness of all views means ; since this meaning [stemming from a position or view about logic] will reduce to meaninglessness. Thus all we have is silence no more squabbling.]" Even meaninglessness entials meaninglessness logically. Logic when turned back on itself and investigates itself paradoxically entials meaninglessness or self-contradiction

"Aristotelian logic as an epistemic condition of truth, the grand narrative of western philosophy: logic-centrism, the limitations of Aristotelian logic, the end of Aristotelian logic, logic/essence and language lead to the meaningless of all views".

Epistemological meaninglessness goes beyound nihlism and skeptcism in claiming even these views ential meaninglessness. Epistemological meaninglessness paradoxically even claims that logically epistemological meaninglesness entials meaninglessness. Logic demonstrates that every thing including itself ential meaninglesssness or self-contradiction.

In Dean's version of epistemological meaninglessness Logic cannot prove or disprove anything all that it does is reduce all views to self-contradiction- including itself. What this meaninglessness means is a question that is dependent upon other views i.e. logic being an epistemic condition of truth or it not being an epistemic condition of truth.. In other words to draw a conclusion form the reduction to meaninglessness [ self-contradiction]of a view/views one must assume some other epistemological ontological or metaphysical position or assumption. Now logic will also reduce these positions or assumptions to meaninglessness such that we in effect have nothing epistemologically to say at all in regard to what the reduction to meaninglessness of all views means ; since this meaning [stemming from a position or view about logic] will reduce to meaninglessness. Thus all we have is silence no more squabbling

"The dialectic reductio ad absurdum argument: a method of philosophical argumentation or analysis demonstrating the meaninglessness of all views"



WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THESE CLAIMS
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lucid_dream
post Aug 14, 2007, 06:30 AM
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I only had time to glance at the post above, but here are my initial thoughts (I'm expecting a swift rebuke). Meaning is subjective interpretation. Colin Leslie Dean's claims above are arguably no more than a testament to his experiental poverty and to the fact that he experiences his own life as meaningless.

Nietzsche's whole philosophy was centered around nihilism and how to overcome it. He felt the Christian valuations were clearly insufficient and that new valuations, a re-evaluation of all values, was necessary.

I will read Dean's claims more in depth later today.
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trojan_libido
post Aug 14, 2007, 06:35 AM
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Well I believe the text is both true and false, its true that our logic is based on an incomplete understanding of reality and so this incomplete "logic" can't discuss how true things are. But meaning is only the back story to our meanderings through spacetime and the narrative of the Universe. You usually give something meaning by the context it is within, and you could argue that any context is itself meaningless, then arrive at the conclusion that all is meaningless.

However, my views have meaning to me in my own self-centered Universe. My logic is 100% sound, and everyone else could take a leaf from my meaningless book smile.gif
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lucid_dream
post Aug 14, 2007, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Aug 14, 2007, 07:35 AM) *
You usually give something meaning by the context it is within, and you could argue that any context is itself meaningless, then arrive at the conclusion that all is meaningless.


Wittgenstein's views on meaning may be relevant here
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nightrover
post Aug 14, 2007, 08:29 AM
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Wittgenstein's views and Nietzsches' end in meaninglessness
Nietzsche'
to escape from nihlism it is simply to realise that nihilism ends in meaninglesness
to escape from the existentalists meaninglessness is to realise the existentialists end in meaninglessness

that all products of human thinking end in meaningless
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trojan_libido
post Aug 14, 2007, 10:17 AM
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Therefore the void is really the ever present and all this is just a dance like the Nataraja dance of shiva.
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nightrover
post Aug 14, 2007, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE
Therefore the void is really the ever present and all this is just a dance like the Nataraja dance of shiva.


QUOTE
the tandava, the dance in which the universe is created, maintained, and resolved.


the tandava ends in meaninglessness- creation resolution maintainents all end in meaninglessness
shiva dancing is a waste of time as he cant see that there is no creation no resolution no maintainents he is locked within maya himself


the void ends in meaninglessness
he who takes the void or meaninglessness as meaning is lost
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Rick
post Aug 14, 2007, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE(nightrover @ Aug 14, 2007, 05:53 AM) *
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THESE CLAIMS

The idea that everything (that is thinkable) is meaningless is meaningless so I don't think about it much.

A thesis can be shattered by a single counterexample.

Love-making is meaningful because it produces babies which are meaningful. I think I enjoy love-making. Therefore, I have a meaningful thought. QED.
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nightrover
post Aug 14, 2007, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE
Love-making is meaningful because it produces babies which are meaningful. I think I enjoy love-making. Therefore, I have a meaningful thought. QED.

your meaningful thought ends in meaninglessness

love, babies meaning thought all ends in meaninglessness
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Culture
post Aug 14, 2007, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE(nightrover @ Aug 14, 2007, 10:37 AM) *

QUOTE
Therefore the void is really the ever present and all this is just a dance like the Nataraja dance of shiva.


QUOTE
the tandava, the dance in which the universe is created, maintained, and resolved.


the tandava ends in meaninglessness- creation resolution maintainents all end in meaninglessness
shiva dancing is a waste of time as he cant see that there is no creation no resolution no maintainents he is locked within maya himself


the void ends in meaninglessness
he who takes the void or meaninglessness as meaning is lost


I see how that could be and that even these words I type are meaningless, still I am happier to learn 'meaningless' information and seek answers to questions that have no answers, yet.

Perhaps Deans thoughts are just in a call for a Copernican revolution, however if the result, amounts to nothing, then its no revolution and no progression. In other words what does Dean postulate the results
for this new meaninglessness will revolutionise?

I just do not see how Dean can say that anything is limited, new theories and advancements
still to come. When words are meaningless then so is language, and I can see
how this could as we use language to filter (in) our reality and describe


It is somewhat ironic that Dean is trying to sell a book that by his own admission
is meaningless.
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Rick
post Aug 14, 2007, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE(nightrover @ Aug 14, 2007, 12:17 PM) *
your meaningful thought ends in meaninglessness

It seems to we are reduced to an "is so, is not" style of debate. Take what meaning you like from it.
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nightrover
post Aug 14, 2007, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE
It is somewhat ironic that Dean is trying to sell a book that by his own admission
is meaningless.


he is not trying to sell his book he is giving it away free
and
yes his book will end in meaninglessness and by doing so hopefully raise your consciousness to a new Copernican revolution where man is decentred from his privilaged position as knower
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code buttons
post Aug 14, 2007, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Aug 14, 2007, 11:54 AM) *

QUOTE(nightrover @ Aug 14, 2007, 12:17 PM) *
your meaningful thought ends in meaninglessness

It seems to we are reduced to an "is so, is not" style of debate. Take what meaning you like from it.

Meaning?
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Rick
post Aug 14, 2007, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Aug 14, 2007, 01:54 PM) *
Meaning?

No longer having a priviliged position of knower, I suppose I am unable to prove anything, so for the "meaning" to be taken, I suppose we can just use an array of question marks.

The Copernican Revolution was one of knowledge, so I suppose a new one of meaninglessness will be one of formless pure consciousness. Nirvana, that is, in Buddhist terminology.

Somehow that's not sastisfying to me, so it's back to the path of kharma! Struggle on.
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lucid_dream
post Aug 14, 2007, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE(nightrover @ Aug 14, 2007, 09:29 AM) *

Wittgenstein's views and Nietzsches' end in meaninglessness
Nietzsche'
to escape from nihlism it is simply to realise that nihilism ends in meaninglesness
to escape from the existentalists meaninglessness is to realise the existentialists end in meaninglessness

that all products of human thinking end in meaningless


these are Nietzsche quotes? If they are, they are certainly pulled out of context and do not convey Nietzsche's meaning. Have you read Nietzsche? He doesn't espouse nihilism or meaninglessness except as something that must be overcome after the falsity of Christian valuations is realized. We, as creators, imbue the earth and our experiences with meaning, through what we create. The inability to experience meaning should probably be regarded as a flaw, not something to dance around about, and seems similar to the blind person who can't experience sight.
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Joesus
post Aug 14, 2007, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE
he is not trying to sell his book he is giving it away free
and
yes his book will end in meaninglessness and by doing so hopefully raise your consciousness to a new Copernican revolution where man is decentred from his privilaged position as knower

Evidently this has meaning, to be consciously elevated meaning that meaninglessness is meaningless thereby raising meaninglessness to a whole new level of meaning...

Mental masturbation anyone?
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nightrover
post Aug 14, 2007, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE
hese are Nietzsche quotes? If they are, they are certainly pulled out of context and do not convey Nietzsche's meaning. Have you read Nietzsche? He doesn't espouse nihilism or meaninglessness except as something that must be overcome after the falsity of Christian valuations is realized.

all Nietzsche had to do was show Nihlism was meaningless rather than come up with a transvaluation of morals which is eqauly ll meaningless
his perspectivism and will to power all end in meaninglesness
him trying to create a new overman or new aristocratic morality is him creating just another system that ends in meaninglessness


QUOTE
Evidently this has meaning, to be consciously elevated meaning that meaninglessness is meaningless thereby raising meaninglessness to a whole new level of meaning


meaninglessness ends in meaninglessness -
all collapses into meaninglessness so long as you use logic and language
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nightrover
post Aug 14, 2007, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE
The Copernican Revolution was one of knowledge, so I suppose a new one of meaninglessness will be one of formless pure consciousness. Nirvana, that is, in Buddhist terminology.


meaninglessness comes so long as you use logic and language
if you know your Buddhism ie Madhyamika the problem is due to essence, intrinsic existence
sunyata is emptyness
so think then of a new Copernican revolution which does not use essence- logic and language do
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Joesus
post Aug 14, 2007, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE

meaninglessness ends in meaninglessness -
all collapses into meaninglessness so long as you use logic and language

Or rather when you begin in meaningless you end in meaninglessness.

You do realize that you and this whole topic is meaningless..
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Joesus
post Aug 14, 2007, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE
sunyata is emptyness

No it is not, it is the ultimate fullness
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nightrover
post Aug 15, 2007, 12:42 AM
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No it is not, it is the ultimate fullness


then you must be aware of Nagajuna's and Chandrakirit's use of the prasanga
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Joesus
post Aug 15, 2007, 08:23 AM
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QUOTE(nightrover @ Aug 15, 2007, 08:42 AM) *

QUOTE
No it is not, it is the ultimate fullness


then you must be aware of Nagajuna's and Chandrakirit's use of the prasanga


I'm very familiar with the Absolute.
There is no one definition, use or text that defines it, but all religions of western and eastern traditions begin with the human relationship to it.

My Experience of it, is that it is both empty and full at the same time.
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nightrover
post Aug 15, 2007, 08:34 AM
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I agree with dean
he seems to be taking the Madhyamika prasanga and applying it in a western context
his Copernican revolution seems to be trying to give a western context to the Madhyamika two truths ie samvriti and paramatha
paramatha in deans context is a rejection of an essentialist ontology behind our logic and language -which is what the Madhyamika point out- and thus trying to give a western slant to Madhyamika
the west basically rejects eastern mysticism
so i see dean as contextualising it in a western form the west can understand
deans meaningless of all views is just applying the prasanga to western systems
deans new Copernican revolution is just abandoning an essentialist logic and language to find other ways of seeing the universes-thus adopting Madhyamika to a western audiance with out an essentialst ontology- Madhyamika call it prattisumutpada or dependent co-arising

so i see dean as contextualising Madhyamika to a western audience brought up on on the worship of logic/rationality materalism and science- as Madhyamika say you must adopt your teaching to the spiritual level of your pupil ie graded teaching -skillful means
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Joesus
post Aug 15, 2007, 08:54 AM
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Fortunately there are many teachings which bring the essence of the absolute into view with the hint of its relationship to human invention.

You have found one that fits your understanding.
It would be great if there were less superstition around these teachings and more insight into the unity of them.

Having explored both the western and the eastern I find it is easier to understand the essence of both.

Then having found useful tools to take the knowledge into direct experience it becomes far superior to any meanings derived from the texts of any Teaching.
QUOTE
you must adopt your teaching to the spiritual level of your pupil

Once one finds unity with the absolute everything comes together.
There is no Teacher Student in this state of awareness only the One Consciousness.
Anything relative to the student becomes natural to the Teacher and the relationship flows in complete harmony.
Any intellectual approach never begins at the level of spirit, even if the intellect is tied to it because the points of reference are localized to relative activity rather than spirit itself.
One has to give all impressions of ego back to spirit in complete surrender to meet the relative with any spiritual influence.

The ego itself cannot make this distinction.
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