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> Why the Singularity isn't going to happen
Hey Hey
post Oct 16, 2010, 04:52 AM
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http://io9.com/5661534/why-the-singularity...going-to-happen
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Kaloa
post Oct 16, 2010, 10:32 AM
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Exerpts from the above article:

"If history, real history, teaches us any lesson it's that new technologies do not cause us to transcend. They fix some things, and then cause new problems we hadn't anticipated.

It's not that we couldn't anticipate these problems, and even generate some Plan B ideas for dealing with them. But it's hard to plan for problems when our eyes are on Heaven - that place where finally, all our problems are solved and we live happily ever after. It's a fantasy as old as recorded history, and unlike history, it never changes. Yet we still keep mistaking it for a perfect vision of the future. Each time a Singularity-level technology comes along, we pack our bags for paradise instead of thinking sensibly about how we can prevent the worst side-effects of this new technology from biting us in our angelic asses."

We have ALWAYS had VERY BIG PROBLEMS on this planet, aware of them or not: Meteors, sun bursts, vocanos, and whatever weather ensues natures whims.

The difference, to me, between the consciousness singularity of Shawns, and other singularities, is that the consciousness singularity is aimed at direct manipulation of the human brain, which has the potential to put an end to the causes of a large amount, if not practically all of the interal causes of such repeated stupidities of the past. Since it is aimed at the sourse of these problems, the mind in its physical form(the brain0, and not some external heaven object for the mind, or a distorted vision of reality. It is only human destiny that pushes us to the realities behind the foggy notions of heaven and perfection; not ignorance, but a desire to know.


"All I'm saying is that if you're looking for a narrative that explains the future, consider this: Does the narrative promise you things that sound like religion? A world where today's problems are fixed, but no new problems have arisen? A world where human history is irrelevant? If yes, then you're in the fog of Singularity thinking.

But if that narrative deals with consequences, complications, and many possible outcomes, then you're getting closer to something like a potential truth. It may not be as tasty as potato chips, but it's what we've got. Might as well get ready for the mutation to begin."

Yes. The mutation of consciousness! Lungs are for breathing, hearts are for beating, and brains are for mutating!

If humans are able to push the boundaries of consciousness beyond a certain point using neuroscience, then we would very easily be far past the reach of it's current limitations that cause so many ignorances, in theory of course, as is everything that has not yet been done, BUT why would we stop trying for this?! Why I ask you when there is so much potential for a real transformation? Why Hey Hey?! Why!?
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Kaloa
post Oct 16, 2010, 11:08 AM
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Why...?...smile.gif








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Kaloa
post Oct 18, 2010, 08:37 PM
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I may have been out of my element there. I appologize.
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Kaloa
post Oct 19, 2010, 04:33 PM
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Keeping my eyes on heaven anyways...smile.gif
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Rick
post Oct 20, 2010, 07:18 AM
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Avoid wishful thinking. It's a distraction from the important.
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Kaloa
post Oct 20, 2010, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 20, 2010, 07:18 AM) *

Avoid wishful thinking. It's a distraction from the important.

True, but it's more of a hope than a wish, and more of a dream than anything.wink.gif

'Dream on' I say. (In the positive sense)
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Jakare
post Oct 21, 2010, 07:55 PM
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Maybe the Singularity is not meant to happen naturaly but we force it to happen because we want it. Thus, Singularity will be a human creation, an artifact, a social fenomenom, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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lucid_dream
post Oct 22, 2010, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE(Jakare @ Oct 21, 2010, 08:55 PM) *

Maybe the Singularity is not meant to happen naturaly but we force it to happen because we want it. Thus, Singularity will be a human creation, an artifact, a social fenomenom, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

humans are a part of nature and obey nature's laws; hence, anything they do is natural.
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Kaloa
post Oct 22, 2010, 08:57 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Oct 22, 2010, 02:14 AM) *

humans are a part of nature and obey nature's laws; hence, anything they do is natural.

I've often thought that myself.
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Rick
post Oct 22, 2010, 11:41 AM
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Then the term "unnatural" has no use.
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Hey Hey
post Oct 22, 2010, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 22, 2010, 08:41 PM) *

Then the term "unnatural" has no use.
Excepting the actions of certain Catholic Priests!
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Jakare
post Oct 22, 2010, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Oct 22, 2010, 12:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Jakare @ Oct 21, 2010, 08:55 PM) *

Maybe the Singularity is not meant to happen naturaly but we force it to happen because we want it. Thus, Singularity will be a human creation, an artifact, a social fenomenom, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

humans are a part of nature and obey nature's laws; hence, anything they do is natural.


I thought, and maybe i was wrong because i dont understand exactly what "singularity" is, that was precisely the purpose of singularity, to scape nature´s limitations. If not, and accepting your statement as true, evolution would have a teleologic tendency heading to perfection as a second goal after surviving, so "singularity" is on genes. Time will tell but i think human kind is pushing such tendency to perfection throught social events and developments creating a distortion from the original nature´s law direction and singularity will be the effective breaking point from nature´s influence.
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lucid_dream
post Oct 22, 2010, 04:51 PM
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escaping our current limitations does not imply escaping the fact that we are an integral part of nature. Our individuality is an illusion. The common mode of human consciousness involving separation into 'self' versus 'other' is an illusion. At the singularity, these illusions will be seen through, and the universe (or at least the human race, given that there's probably other intelligent life out there in the universe) will experience itself as unified in consciousness. Each one of us is the universe conscious of itself. The sense of separation is an illusion.
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Hey Hey
post Oct 22, 2010, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Oct 23, 2010, 01:51 AM) *

escaping our current limitations does not imply escaping the fact that we are an integral part of nature. Our individuality is an illusion. The common mode of human consciousness involving separation into 'self' versus 'other' is an illusion. At the singularity, these illusions will be seen through, and the universe (or at least the human race, given that there's probably other intelligent life out there in the universe) will experience itself as unified in consciousness. Each one of us is the universe conscious of itself. The sense of separation is an illusion.
l_d don't you think that some of description here tends toward the supernatural/paranormal and the approach toward the singularity might be best describe through individuals' organically-derived consciousness communicating using means such as implanted inorganic devices (silicon maybe, but certainly with transmit-receive facilities). That is, an advanced type of tissue-silicon fusion permitting EMR communication between individuals. I envisage a much cleaner communication of knowledge than say the internet, or present day telephony. So, rather than 'at our fingertips' we would have information communicated directly within our minds. Then we would have access to all freely flowing information that is the most uptodate version, and would be constantly aware of the latest fluid ideas and hypotheses. There would need to be a fresh way to educate on the use of this type of system and instruction on how to filter and moderate the information. How would we manage the privacy issues? Or, alternatively, what would a consolidated consciousness actually be in terms of an organism?
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GodConsciousness
post Oct 23, 2010, 05:28 AM
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While I believe that the Universe is ultimately One and feel that individuality is largely an illusion, we do experience personal consciousness that is unique to our individuality. Our experiences of finite life does not negate the Infinite One.

On some level we already participate in a singularity of consciousness. Our perceptions of the current singularity may be severely limited in scope at our present state of evolution, but the singularity exists now.

The future evolution of the human species is likely to be dramatically intensified due to advances in genetics and the neurosciences. Information technologies will certainly contribute to our future connectivity.
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Hey Hey
post Oct 23, 2010, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Oct 23, 2010, 02:28 PM) *

While I believe that the Universe is ultimately One and feel that individuality is largely an illusion, we do experience personal consciousness that is unique to our individuality. Our experiences of finite life does not negate the Infinite One.

On some level we already participate in a singularity of consciousness. Our perceptions of the current singularity may be severely limited in scope at our present state of evolution, but the singularity exists now.

The future evolution of the human species is likely to be dramatically intensified due to advances in genetics and the neurosciences. Information technologies will certainly contribute to our future connectivity.
How will humans evolve? (I ask this essentially as a biologist).
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GodConsciousness
post Oct 23, 2010, 02:21 PM
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It will depend largely on how humans want to evolve.
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Rick
post Oct 25, 2010, 03:10 PM
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Certainly genetic engineering (direct manipulation of the genome) will play a part. This might even cause a species bifurcation, or an unlimited number of them.
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Kaloa
post Oct 26, 2010, 09:23 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Oct 22, 2010, 07:56 PM) *

l_d don't you think that some of description here tends toward the supernatural/paranormal and the approach toward the singularity might be best describe through individuals' organically-derived consciousness communicating using means such as implanted inorganic devices (silicon maybe, but certainly with transmit-receive facilities). That is, an advanced type of tissue-silicon fusion permitting EMR communication between individuals. I envisage a much cleaner communication of knowledge than say the internet, or present day telephony. So, rather than 'at our fingertips' we would have information communicated directly within our minds. Then we would have access to all freely flowing information that is the most uptodate version, and would be constantly aware of the latest fluid ideas and hypotheses. There would need to be a fresh way to educate on the use of this type of system and instruction on how to filter and moderate the information. How would we manage the privacy issues? Or, alternatively, what would a consolidated consciousness actually be in terms of an organism?

The paranormal, and supernatural only exist as such to our minds because our consciousness is unnable to see them or know them as simply normal and natural, or what truth about them there is. If such an event, such as the cosciousness singularity were to take place; the above would probably not be any kind of problem, and I don't think much training would be needed at all either for such aspects of a thing(like the internet), but I suppose if it started out that way, then it might be a little like Ghost in the Shell(anime). Brain hackers, and brain police; the whole 9 yards. Hopefully this would not be the only aspect for too long.
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post Oct 26, 2010, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 25, 2010, 03:10 PM) *

Certainly genetic engineering (direct manipulation of the genome) will play a part. This might even cause a species bifurcation, or an unlimited number of them.

I'd be so much fun to speculate how human martians would look like. How the'd adjust to lower gravity and such extreme temperatures. Probably lots of lipoid tissue, small heart, shorter stature, arched legs, ect. Their natural mode of transportation would be the funniest, though: Some kind of hop-walk to get around. Imagine their kids learning to hop-walk! They'd probably be bullied around by earthlings when they came to visit just for the way they looked.
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Rick
post Oct 26, 2010, 01:21 PM
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Lower gravity should result in taller people, maybe 8 or 9 feet tall. Run at 30 mph.
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Flex
post Oct 26, 2010, 02:51 PM
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Transfatty-Earthlings will never run 30 MPH regardless of gravity smile.gif

I have a feeling that us Earthlings are simultaneously moving both towards and away from the singularity. There seems to be an ever increasing awareness that nature contains billions of years of wisdom twisted into a neat helical package. By nature we are programmed to find pleasure from eating foods intended for us by cosmic intelligence; however, nowadays nature isn't good enough, and we "enhance" our foods, which ultimately does more harm to the natural harmony of the body and spirit than good. Our primary sustenance is just one example.

My Thoughts on the Singularity:

The singularity already exists. It is the nature of existence. Nothing distinguishes a molecule of O2 exhaled from your lungs, from the ones in your DNA, from the ones in the atmosphere. In fact they are readily interchangeable. In this way all matter has the inherent capacity for consciousness.

The next step in the evolution of the Universe will be to expand consciousness between "bodies" (bodies in quotes, as a body is only defined by perception not reality). It seems to me the most likely mechanism would be some sort of induction i.e. if enough people have the same train of thought, the energy of the thoughts will couple with one another, inducing the same thought in neighboring bodies. This will continue until all mater in the Universe is "conscious".

Or

The Universe is already a unified conscious body, but WE are not aware of it. Example: complex molecules poses intelligence--don't believe me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbcWGU8fpxA

For all I know, subatomic particles are living lives every bit as fulfilling as my own, I am just not aware of it. Every level of existence has its own form of consciousness. On the scale of the Universe, an individual may be but a single cell in God's (the Universe's) colon, contemplating the meaning of life. All of the laws of life are already laid out in our DNA, just as gravity dictates the life of our planet.

I believe it may be possible that our consciousness is nothing more than taking the wave function, and collapsing it to a single point we call consciousness. All realities are occurring simultaneously and all particles exist in all of the Universe right now, until the act of "observation" in which the wave function collapses to a single point, and you get a perceived experience. Time is only an illusion since everything exists everywhere simultaneously. We only perceive chronologic time because of how we choose to observe the system of the Universe--linearly--in which one observation is stored and directly impacts the next observation. There is no reason why a particular wavelength of light should be red one day, and not say smell like a tomato the next, save the fact that that particular circuit is not plastic--we have learned to interpret red as red. E=mc^2 energy and mass are one in the same. Everything in the Universe is energy, until the act of observation (interchangeable with creation).

I have a feeling that when we die, we return to the singularity, just as we were before we were born. When we stop trying to observe and interpret, and return to our natural state of boundless potential (energy) I believe we will all achieve the singularity.

***I apologize for any incoherence I am under the influence, and wrote as thoughts popped into my head without rereading or editing***
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post Oct 26, 2010, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 26, 2010, 02:51 PM) *

Every level of existence has its own form of consciousness...

Panpsyquism (link)
QUOTE( @ Oct 26, 2010, 02:51 PM) *

On the scale of the Universe, an individual may be but a single cell in God's (the Universe's) colon...

laugh.gif Oh! And don't worry mate, I'm always under the influence!...I believe we all are around here!
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Kaloa
post Oct 27, 2010, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 26, 2010, 02:51 PM) *

I have a feeling that when we die, we return to the singularity, just as we were before we were born. When we stop trying to observe and interpret, and return to our natural state of boundless potential (energy) I believe we will all achieve the singularity.

Maybe, but if so, then I want realize the potentials of my own singularity in this life as well, while I'm breathing; not just in some future death. Not to say that it's fair to even make such a distinction as life from death. If there is a singularity, that is me, in death, then there is a singularity, that is me, while I'm alive. Of course death can't be ignored, as it is a very significant part of life; possibly the most.
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Flex
post Oct 27, 2010, 09:52 PM
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I guess what I am trying to say is that life and death are an illusion. All things exist in the same eternal state, with no beginning and no end (since time is a human construct).
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old6598
post Oct 28, 2010, 05:17 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 27, 2010, 09:52 PM) *

I guess what I am trying to say is that life and death are an illusion. All things exist in the same eternal state, with no beginning and no end (since time is a human construct).



From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/10/the-tombstone-blues.html



My real ideas....






I find it amusing how you tend to get to my same conclusions without knowing why: I have been writing it and explaining it many times, no one understands it.

1) We have massive excess productive capacity in all possible endeavors worldwide, therefore work is essentially no longer needed.

2) We live in automatic economies where most work is performed by machines and large organizations with the help of technology and sheer numbers, given the global nature of economy.

3) The amount of wealth present today, as the possibility to give everything anybody on earth wants and/or needs is virtually infinite: just look at how many empty homes are sitting idle in the USA and Spain just to name one.

4) Therefore society must simply decide to give out free salaries to everyone, work is an option that is not even needed in most cases. And free or cheap rents to pay in high quality and large luxurious homes, look at all the empty McMansions.

5) The movement that modern economy is based on is essentially virtual movements, the movement of information and less and less on the movement of physical items, but this is hugely automated with the Internet, Cell phones, etc.

6) Therefore indeed, people should just not do anything but instead of staring outside a window, THEY SHOULD WATCH TV ALL DAY LONG AND SLEEP MORE AND MORE HOURS (24 hours of just sleeping would be perfect) .

7) Economy does not exist, only temporary rules and relationships between people and groups of people define how they behave and act and interact in a given interval of time while those rules have a large enough consensus: but the rules will always change, man is an infinitely programmable machine that can associate any input to any output, any sequence of manipulations and information transformations to any other sequence, any input to any emotion - feeling - reaction - thought (and pain/pleasure, anger, fighting, etc.), to any event, etc.

8) Therefore, given the huge excess productive capacity available worldwide, it must be discharged with huge SOLAR SYSTEM SIZED PROJECTS, TO KEEP BILLIONS OF PEOPLE OCCUPIED AND WORKING AND NOT KILLING AND FIGHTING EACH OTHER LIKE LITTLE KINDERGARDEN BABIES, HENCE, TRILLIONS OF SKYSCRAPERS ON THE MOON, MARS, VENUS, TRILLIONS OF HUGE OCEAN LINES IN THE SUN, ON JUPITER AND SATURN, TRILLIONS OF SUBMARINES AND JET PLANES, HUGE MILE LONG JET PLANES ALL ACROSS JUPITER AND SATURN, TRILLIONS OF ZEPPELINS INSIDE AND ACROSS JUPITER AND SATURN, AND IN THE SUN, HUGE PARTICLE ACCELERATORS, 100 KM LONG, ETC. TRILLIONS OF SKYSCRAPERS THAT ARE HIGH 100 KM, ETC. HUGE POPULATION EXPLOSION TO COLONIZE SOLAR SYSTEM AND GALAXY, TECHNOLOGICAL SINGULARITIES MANIPULATING BRAINS, CREATING NEW NEURAL CIRCUITS IN BRAINS, NEW SENSE ORGANS - EMOTIONAL CIRCUITS - SUPER VIRTUAL REALITIES, CHIPS IN BRAINS, WILD CHEMICALS IN BRAINS, ALL KINDS OF WACKY EXPERIMENTS, ETC

9) Most posters here believe in the Resource Scarcity Myth, well there has never been more resources available today to do anything possible and give everything to everyone, there is no population explosion (we might reach at most 10 - 15 billion in 50 years, which is nothing at all, a grain of sand compared to how many huge skyscrapers we could build to host trillions of families), all this resource scarcity myth serves to keep the poor in place and not share the wealth that is out there waiting to be used by everyone. The entire "science" of economics just reinforces this crappy ideology, justifying all possible ways to not distribute wealth and let a small minority hog it all up for themselves. There are 100 trillion dollars in banks that don't know what to do, that is how the subprime mess got started, too much wealth, too much money, no way to distribute it, and the myth of profit which is a completely man made invention with no real physical necessity.
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Kaloa
post Oct 28, 2010, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE(old6598 @ Oct 28, 2010, 05:17 AM) *

I find it amusing how you tend to get to my same conclusions without knowing why: I have been writing it and explaining it many times, no one understands it.

Lol! I think I get what you're trying to say. Yes, I agree. The singularity may have something to do with this as well. lol.

If I may offer some advice on helping people 'understand', then try and simplify what you are trying to say. I felt like I had to get through alot of opinion and a little sarcasm just to find out what you think about something I'm not to sure about. What is the primise of this anyways besides that the current economical systems we are using are infected with greed and deception? I feel like it may be veering a little off topic from 'Why the Singularity isn't going to happen'.
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Kaloa
post Oct 28, 2010, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 27, 2010, 09:52 PM) *

I guess what I am trying to say is that life and death are an illusion. All things exist in the same eternal state, with no beginning and no end (since time is a human construct).

The rest of your post was really interesting too, though some of it I admit to not understanding fully, such as your analogy of a collapsing wave, but that is the fault of my lack of wave knowledge. But I feel you, I think, on what your saying about death and the singularity. Tell me if this sounds about what you're trying to say:

Death is the single force wich is driving life towards it's own transformation into singularity. But does that mean that the subjective experience of this process is eventually 'pulled into' the same experience, no matter who is experiencing it? I mean; isn't it possible that death is just a further extension of the changes we experience in life, but on a more extreme level, and not necessarily as an ultimate objective experience of some absolute outcome? I think we all experience death differently, but somehow the same. I don't think that we will ever be the same as we experience the self currently, after any kind of singularity is experienced. I mean; I don't think that death is the end to our transcendence as living beings, but I don't know to what extent death is final either. It's a very mysterious thing. I think that the only way we will ever know anything about the larger singularity in our lives, call it death or destiny, is by working at our own transcendence into singularity, while alive.

It may also be possible that after the consciousness singularity, we will be more aware of our eternal being that goes on beyond and after death, and in fact, we may be walking around in several existences beyond our currnent phisical constitution, even while formed in such a body currently, but simply unaware, due to the limitations of human consciousness that our brains are not easily capable of transcending. What if we are capable of traveling physically/bodily into other worlds as simple as you walk through a doorway. Un-aided human flight is not impossible either, but we are not yet doing these things that I have seen or experienced outside of lucid dreaming, but what if we were capable of such evolution that we no longer needed a physical one to influence the universe around us for the better, but simply existed as transformational energy in it's purer forms?
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post Oct 28, 2010, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE(Kaloa @ Oct 28, 2010, 09:02 AM) *

If I may offer some advice on helping people 'understand', then try and simplify what you are trying to say...
I feel like it may be veering a little off topic from 'Why the Singularity isn't going to happen'...

If I may, Kaloa, go to:

http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22324&hl=

James has it all layed out for you there; beautifully, and in most simple terms, may I add. I also find it amusing that his conclusions on the subject go along with Flex's, though. so, I guess they're both onthe right track. Except that Flex's lucidity moments only come to him when he's under the influence! LOL! I hope he shares with us the names of the ingredients of his secret concuction!
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