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> The God That Wasn't There!
Trip like I do
post Apr 04, 2009, 02:20 PM
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http://www.thegodmovie.com/canada/?gclid=C...CFQEeDQod20p3Vw

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Rick
post Apr 08, 2009, 11:50 AM
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Religion is ethically indefensible. Who is more praiseworthy, one who acts well in order to receive a reward from a god or one who acts well because he wants to help others?
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post Apr 08, 2009, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 08, 2009, 08:50 PM) *

Religion is ethically indefensible. Who is more praiseworthy, one who acts well in order to receive a reward from a god or one who acts well because he wants to help others?
I question the motive or reason of anyone who acts well because he wants to help others. Experience has shown that they are either loonies or misguided, have ulterior motives or are blatantly self-righteous. Thus, I have concluded that acting well can be beneficial to others, but the actual intent or meaning should be interpreted cautiously.
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catseye
post Apr 08, 2009, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 08, 2009, 12:07 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 08, 2009, 08:50 PM) *

Religion is ethically indefensible. Who is more praiseworthy, one who acts well in order to receive a reward from a god or one who acts well because he wants to help others?
I question the motive or reason of anyone who acts well because he wants to help others. Experience has shown that they are either loonies or misguided, have ulterior motives or are blatantly self-righteous. Thus, I have concluded that acting well can be beneficial to others, but the actual intent or meaning should be interpreted cautiously.



I wonder...If the teachings of Jesus were spoken by an atheist would they hold a meaning to be understood and followed?

"Verily I say unto you. He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth and the sheep hear his voice and he calleth his own sheep by name and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them and the sheep follow him for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow but will flee from him for they know not the voice of strangers."

This quote is older but basically the same as what HH just said above. But of course, I'd be screaming out of the cave if HH resurrects. ohmy.gif
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Joesus
post Apr 08, 2009, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 08, 2009, 08:45 PM) *

I wonder...If the teachings of Jesus were spoken by an atheist would they hold a meaning to be understood and followed?
Even when Jesus spoke directly to an audience, not many understood what he had to say.
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post Apr 08, 2009, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 08, 2009, 09:45 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 08, 2009, 12:07 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 08, 2009, 08:50 PM) *

Religion is ethically indefensible. Who is more praiseworthy, one who acts well in order to receive a reward from a god or one who acts well because he wants to help others?
I question the motive or reason of anyone who acts well because he wants to help others. Experience has shown that they are either loonies or misguided, have ulterior motives or are blatantly self-righteous. Thus, I have concluded that acting well can be beneficial to others, but the actual intent or meaning should be interpreted cautiously.



I wonder...If the teachings of Jesus were spoken by an atheist would they hold a meaning to be understood and followed?

"Verily I say unto you. He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth and the sheep hear his voice and he calleth his own sheep by name and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them and the sheep follow him for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow but will flee from him for they know not the voice of strangers."

This quote is older but basically the same as what HH just said above. But of course, I'd be screaming out of the cave if HH resurrects. ohmy.gif
I'm not dead yet! But if I was, I'd have as much chance of resurrecting as Jesus did!
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catseye
post Apr 08, 2009, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 08, 2009, 02:46 PM) *

QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 08, 2009, 08:45 PM) *

I wonder...If the teachings of Jesus were spoken by an atheist would they hold a meaning to be understood and followed?
Even when Jesus spoke directly to an audience, not many understood what he had to say.



Including his own Apostles. He often had to give the meanings of his parables to them as they themselves didn't understand. Which is kinda bias now that I think on it...for when he said that to those that don't see, perceive or understand let them deal with the parable least they convert and be forgiven. That the apostles didn't understand, how were they better than the others that didn't ? If he was to save us from our sins how is it that he also forbade understanding to those that sinned ?
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Joesus
post Apr 08, 2009, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 09, 2009, 12:12 AM) *

That the apostles didn't understand, how were they better than the others that didn't ? If he was to save us from our sins how is it that he also forbade understanding to those that sinned ?

They (his disciples) were more or less ready to make an evolutionary step in their consciousness, and it was not that they were better, they were part of his message. Humans living the teaching, experiencing and teaching the reality of conscious expansion. He never forbade anyone understanding. It is reality that some are not ready yet to experience something if their plate is already full with something else. Growth in consciousness is part and parcel to learning a few steps that prepare one for something other than superstition, and fear. A child has to learn the language before it can attend school... sort of thing. Humanity has in 2000 years taken the seed that was planted and some have grown with it and others are still beating it back down into the earth preparing themselves for the day when they can understand the nature of themselves, so the seed can sprout within their understanding and physical capability.

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Hey Hey
post Apr 09, 2009, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 09, 2009, 01:12 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 08, 2009, 02:46 PM) *

QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 08, 2009, 08:45 PM) *

I wonder...If the teachings of Jesus were spoken by an atheist would they hold a meaning to be understood and followed?
Even when Jesus spoke directly to an audience, not many understood what he had to say.



Including his own Apostles. He often had to give the meanings of his parables to them as they themselves didn't understand. Which is kinda bias now that I think on it...for when he said that to those that don't see, perceive or understand let them deal with the parable least they convert and be forgiven. That the apostles didn't understand, how were they better than the others that didn't ? If he was to save us from our sins how is it that he also forbade understanding to those that sinned ?
I've been waiting here for years to be struck down. Why not now? Why have to wait until I'm dead for the punishment? Beats me? No god, no afterlife, no fairy tales, nothing.

I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye. BTW, I have great pleasure in discussing your views, and value your temporary lives.
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Joesus
post Apr 09, 2009, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 09, 2009, 09:06 PM) *

I've been waiting here for years to be struck down. Why not now?

Obviously because of this:
QUOTE
I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye.

The desire to enjoy a few more years of waiting keeps you going.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 09, 2009, 09:06 PM) *

Why have to wait until I'm dead for the punishment? Beats me? No god, no afterlife, no fairy tales, nothing.
You don't have to wait. Everywhere you don't find perfection in and about your life and humanity is given to you now. Then when you die you get to start all over again without the memory of having done it before.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 09, 2009, 09:06 PM) *

I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye. BTW, I have great pleasure in discussing your views, and value your temporary lives.

Nothing changes if you are complacent with what you have, and don't do anything different. The pleasure of your current state of mind continues as a result of your choice. Temporary yes. You get a few years before your death, to continue in the world you created through that choice.
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Hey Hey
post Apr 09, 2009, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 09, 2009, 10:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 09, 2009, 09:06 PM) *

I've been waiting here for years to be struck down. Why not now?

Obviously because of this:
QUOTE
I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye.

The desire to enjoy a few more years of waiting keeps you going.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 09, 2009, 09:06 PM) *

Why have to wait until I'm dead for the punishment? Beats me? No god, no afterlife, no fairy tales, nothing.
You don't have to wait. Everywhere you don't find perfection in and about your life and humanity is given to you now. Then when you die you get to start all over again without the memory of having done it before.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 09, 2009, 09:06 PM) *

I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye. BTW, I have great pleasure in discussing your views, and value your temporary lives.

Nothing changes if you are complacent with what you have, and don't do anything different. The pleasure of your current state of mind continues as a result of your choice. Temporary yes. You get a few years before your death, to continue in the world you created through that choice.
What nice replies. I like you.
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catseye
post Apr 09, 2009, 03:09 PM
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[quote name='Hey Hey' date='Apr 09, 2009, 01:06 PM' post='100299']

[/quote]I've been waiting here for years to be struck down. Why not now? Why have to wait until I'm dead for the punishment? Beats me? No god, no afterlife, no fairy tales, nothing.

I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye. BTW, I have great pleasure in discussing your views, and value your temporary lives.
[/quote]



You do realize I was just playing with my ending response to you hey hey, right ?? However your response was interesting... Yes, you do have just as much of a chance of resurrecting as Jesus. In this life, perhaps no, but eventually. I know...you don't give these beliefs much to consider. But like anything else, when someone becomes aware of a knowledge, that knowledge becomes a fact and a reality. Before the discovery of microbiology man didn't give much thought that such small things could have any impact on man. As we now know, it means everything that can impact man.

Punishment? Now that's a belief not worth any consideration. Even for criminals. Those that fall to the darker side of life receive that effect. Like throwing a ball against a wall, the harder you throw it, the harder it will come back at the pitcher. Repentance is the catchers mitt. We must catch what we throw out and in order to create a better throw the next time we learn how to soften the blow of receiving. And karma...I view that like a good massage or physical work out. We must undo the knots and dysfunction we created in ourselves, to be whole again and without pain to succeed more in life and living.

Your value as a man and a spirit are immeasurable, always will be...


"of mice and men" are going well, almost half way through now...I'll give a thought when I'm through. wub.gif
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catseye
post Apr 09, 2009, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 08, 2009, 06:31 PM) *

QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 09, 2009, 12:12 AM) *

That the apostles didn't understand, how were they better than the others that didn't ? If he was to save us from our sins how is it that he also forbade understanding to those that sinned ?

They (his disciples) were more or less ready to make an evolutionary step in their consciousness, and it was not that they were better, they were part of his message. Humans living the teaching, experiencing and teaching the reality of conscious expansion. He never forbade anyone understanding. It is reality that some are not ready yet to experience something if their plate is already full with something else. Growth in consciousness is part and parcel to learning a few steps that prepare one for something other than superstition, and fear. A child has to learn the language before it can attend school... sort of thing. Humanity has in 2000 years taken the seed that was planted and some have grown with it and others are still beating it back down into the earth preparing themselves for the day when they can understand the nature of themselves, so the seed can sprout within their understanding and physical capability.



I can understand that the disciples may be ready for the next step but Christ didn't mix his words. Unless you know a translational difference in what was said the statement "least they convert and be forgiven" does not say the principal that you propose above. Although I can agree with this principal, it doesn't seem to be an answer to this question.
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Joesus
post Apr 09, 2009, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 12:53 AM) *

I can understand that the disciples may be ready for the next step but Christ didn't mix his words. Unless you know a translational difference in what was said the statement "least they convert and be forgiven" does not say the principal that you propose above. Although I can agree with this principal, it doesn't seem to be an answer to this question.

What do you know of Jesus Teaching as it relates to Eastern Scripture regarding Karma, reincarnation and ego?
Where exactly did you pull the phrase from? Sometimes it's easier to put it into context when it is seen in an entire passage.

The word convert and forgive can relate to Sin and removal of Sin. Sin being incorrect thinking or blinded awareness to reality. If someone is moving in the opposite direction of expanded awareness, toward contraction, fear and delusion, one would have to make a change to convert the thought process that is contracting to one that is expansive.
In the RG Veda the word sacrifice is used, where sacrifice means to give up something that doesn't work for something that does. One easily sacrifices delusion for Truth in order to see clearly.

To be forgiven can mean a couple of things, such as a personal approach to ones awareness of reality. If it is judged as negative one can see it in a different light and forgive or repent (literally to change ones mind) about what is seen and experienced. When it comes to Karmic repercussions it is possible to burn the bridge to Karma that hasn't yet manifest by stepping outside of the Hamster wheel that produces it through the conversion of wrongful thinking to right thinking, or to expand the intellect from ignorance to Self realization.
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catseye
post Apr 10, 2009, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 09, 2009, 09:54 PM) *

QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 12:53 AM) *

I can understand that the disciples may be ready for the next step but Christ didn't mix his words. Unless you know a translational difference in what was said the statement "least they convert and be forgiven" does not say the principal that you propose above. Although I can agree with this principal, it doesn't seem to be an answer to this question.

What do you know of Jesus Teaching as it relates to Eastern Scripture regarding Karma, reincarnation and ego?
Where exactly did you pull the phrase from? Sometimes it's easier to put it into context when it is seen in an entire passage.

The word convert and forgive can relate to Sin and removal of Sin. Sin being incorrect thinking or blinded awareness to reality. If someone is moving in the opposite direction of expanded awareness, toward contraction, fear and delusion, one would have to make a change to convert the thought process that is contracting to one that is expansive.
In the RG Veda the word sacrifice is used, where sacrifice means to give up something that doesn't work for something that does. One easily sacrifices delusion for Truth in order to see clearly.

To be forgiven can mean a couple of things, such as a personal approach to ones awareness of reality. If it is judged as negative one can see it in a different light and forgive or repent (literally to change ones mind) about what is seen and experienced. When it comes to Karmic repercussions it is possible to burn the bridge to Karma that hasn't yet manifest by stepping outside of the Hamster wheel that produces it through the conversion of wrongful thinking to right thinking, or to expand the intellect from ignorance to Self realization.



In relation to the eastern philosophy, Jesus agreed (with John aka Elisha) that one needs to repent (sacrifice and face personal sin in action and thought) and then to wash away the dirt that scars the soul (karma) by living the truth of "sin no more" These two in acceptance is the path to Heaven. Reincarnation is the process of these two until the soul is purified from ego drives and lower ambitions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Which brings me to a side note: Don't agree with your statement to HH that we get to forget from one life to the next, we most certainly don't. Perhaps for a short time in youth, but eventually all of our past is brought forth to memory - agreeably or not. I think it's possible to bury one's past memories through adhering to this physical life and conditioning beliefs, but sooner or later, one life or another, it's revealed. In Glory and Sin.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Where did I get the phrase from: Parable of the Soils - Mark 4: 1-25; Matt. 13: 1-23 ; Luke 8: 4-15 - King James Bible

To burn the bridge of Karmic repercussions. Really? How? There are no nukes in karmic passage. Like the tarnished pot, it takes effort to rub off and make the pot gleam again, least it be spoiled by an abrasive chemical. Right thinking, right thought, right action is the tarnishing cloth from ignorance to self wisdom, agreed, but to just step aside like a hamster wheel isn't possible from my experience thus far.
Let take a few persona's from the past. Po Pot, Hitler, Herod, The pharisees, Salome, Sadam, Pharo and the like. You think they can just bump off their walk of undoing the soil in heart and just be a perfect soul? Even so, wouldn't their service to mankind be also paramount for their progress? Jesus being who he was, gave of the greatest service for the effort of the soul of man - who are they to do any less? or have it easier?
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Joesus
post Apr 10, 2009, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 03:13 PM) *

Which brings me to a side note: Don't agree with your statement to HH that we get to forget from one life to the next, we most certainly don't. Perhaps for a short time in youth, but eventually all of our past is brought forth to memory - agreeably or not. I think it's possible to bury one's past memories through adhering to this physical life and conditioning beliefs, but sooner or later, one life or another, it's revealed. In Glory and Sin.

The majority of incarnates don't bring their memory with them of past lives. The very few that do remember bits and pieces only do because it serves them to use what they know to expand beyond the limitations that created the Karma in the first place.
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 03:13 PM) *

Where did I get the phrase from: Parable of the Soils - Mark 4: 1-25; Matt. 13: 1-23 ; Luke 8: 4-15 - King James Bible

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Read within the context of both passages you have noted, Jesus pretty much says to those that have the ability to grasp reality at an advanced intellectual level, the illusions of ego do not blind them to the truth. Those that see clearly avoid the repercussions of choice made from the illusions of separation from God and the fear of ignorance.
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 03:13 PM) *

To burn the bridge of Karmic repercussions. Really? How? There are no nukes in karmic passage. Like the tarnished pot, it takes effort to rub off and make the pot gleam again, least it be spoiled by an abrasive chemical. Right thinking, right thought, right action is the tarnishing cloth from ignorance to self wisdom, agreed, but to just step aside like a hamster wheel isn't possible from my experience thus far.

The meaning of the word repent, (to change ones mind or to alter the perception of delusion to clarity) refers to the expansion of limited states of consciousness such as sleeping, dreaming and waking into something greater. Patanjali's Yoga Sutras detail three more states of consciousness different both subjectively and objectively to the Knower in the process of knowing the known. These states of consciousness are awareness of an unchanging absolute and an established perpetual recognition of it. Exalted consciousness, the ability to see the Celestials, also experienced as heightened intuition, or the ability to feel and hear the world around you at subtle levels. And the 7th state of consciousness Unity or perpetual unified awareness of the unchanging absolute in every thought feeling and action, also known as "Heaven on Earth" where one lives 100% in the manifest and 100% in the un-manifest. It is here where Sin is washed away and Karma is ascended.
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 03:13 PM) *

Let take a few persona's from the past. Po Pot, Hitler, Herod, The pharisees, Salome, Sadam, Pharo and the like. You think they can just bump off their walk of undoing the soil in heart and just be a perfect soul? Even so, wouldn't their service to mankind be also paramount for their progress? Jesus being who he was, gave of the greatest service for the effort of the soul of man - who are they to do any less? or have it easier?

If you separate God from everything and give those qualities of judgment to something that is less than God then you see reality in personna and belief.
In Eastern scripture there is a saying: "All is but the gunas playing upon the gunas" (nature playing upon nature). In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna (God) instructs Arjuna (the evolving soul) to "Be without the gunas" (to ascend the relative for the absolute). By doing so he will remove himself from duality and become aware of the One consciousness that is in all. By doing so one begins to see something different of reality.
Where one individual interacts with another is like the metabolizing of food within the nervous system. One action cannot be completed without the other. The contrast of choice cannot be experienced or realized without the duality of opposites.

There is a myth regarding the creation of ignorance and illusion within humanity. When man first was created in the image of a perfect God, man realized the only reality was perfect union with everything and so sat in meditation only to be reabsorbed into the one. God then took it upon himself to create delusion so that Man would begin to traverse a different path toward self realization.

We live in a multidimensional manifest world which is part and parcel to the un-manifest One absolute, which is intelligence and without conditions. It is potential and the manifest is experience of potential. The infinite un-manifest contains so to speak all that ever was, is or will be. In one sense it never really leaves its status as the One. However consciousness as it moves thru potential becomes aware of what it is as that potential when it thinks to witness itself or play with itself. As separate individuals we see ourselves differently from it and each other. As we remove individuality from awareness we see ourselves as one.
Pol Pot, Hitler etc. etc. fingers to the same hand all moving in accord to universal mind. If our finger wanders into our nose and becomes immersed in the excrement of nasal waste do we judge the finger or was there some greater purpose in sending it digging for snot and boogers? If the experience is an itch and it needed scratching then one can look at it as a necessity.

The Bhagavad Gita is a story of humanity split between the ego's predilection toward the attachments to sensual pleasures, greed, vanity, sloth, violence and ignorance, and the Hearts subtle desire to return to its source. Humanity squares off, split down the middle representing the heart which listens to the voice of spirit and the ego attached to the outer reality of personality and individual belief. God/Krishna guides Arjuna (the evolving soul) toward the awareness of Truth absolute, so to avoid the complications of being self absorbed in the illusions of duality. Krishna explains that each individual is like an actor upon a stage performing what it must perform to create the bigger picture of experience in direction of thought. Intention leads to experience and what you focus on in that intention creates a ripple in time and space. When the play is over the actors change their clothes and go home (so to speak).
In one sense it never really happens and in another sense it always happens and forever will happen and will never not happen.
The un-manifest and the manifest are always working together like the infinity symbol. One side or loop represents the un-manifest, while the other side or loop represents the manifest. Consciousness moves in and out of each traveling along the loop where it meets the other at the Bhindu point or the null point where one is neither one or the other but yet both. When one reaches a steady awareness of this all Karma is dissolved and one begins to create anew Ad infinitum.

Karma is not a punishment. It is an energetic. If you alter the force that continues its movement in a certain direction, it stops rolling like a snowball picking up more snow and becomes something different.
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catseye
post Apr 10, 2009, 02:17 PM
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Joesus,

Do you believe that Jesus had full memory of his past lives?

Do you believe Jesus was the Christ incarnate or was he overshadowed by the Christ?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ resurrected or survived the crucifixion?

Have you read the Celestine Prophesy? Do you agree with it?

Have you read the Course in Miracles? Do you agree with it?

Have you read the books of DK by Alice Bailey? Do you agree with it?

Thanks for a great post it was interesting.
But, I did not say or ever believed that karma was punishment, I said it was a process. Just wanted to make sure I corrected that.
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Lindsay
post Apr 10, 2009, 09:23 PM
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Catseye, you say, "I did not say or ever believed that karma was punishment, I said it was a process. Just wanted to make sure I corrected that."

You mention "process". Check out Process Theology:
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1489
==========================================
THE NEW TESTAMENT AND KARMA
===============================
Galatians 6:1-10 (Contemporary English Version)

Galatians 6
Help Each Other
1 My friends, you are spiritual. So if someone is trapped in sin, you should gently lead that person back to the right path. But watch out, and don't be tempted yourself. 2 You obey the law of Christ when you offer each other a helping hand.

3 If you think you are better than others, when you really aren't, you are wrong. 4 Do your own work well, and then you will have something to be proud of. But don't compare yourself with others. 5We each must carry our own load.

6 Share every good thing you have with anyone who teaches you what God has said.

7 You cannot fool God, so don't make a fool of yourself! You will harvest what you plant. 8 If you follow your selfish desires, you will harvest destruction, but if you follow the Spirit, you will harvest eternal life. 9 Don't get tired of helping others. You will be rewarded when the time is right, if you don't give up. 10 We should help people whenever we can, especially if they are followers of the Lord.

====================================================
GALATIANS 5
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
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ABOUT THE "JESUS" OF HISTORY
=============================
If the Jesus of the Bible--a collection of documents, over 3000 years, which were never registered with any library--including the Jesus in the writings of Paul (BTW, the Christianity we know is really Paulianity) really was the Messiah--the Greek is Christos, Christ, anointed One--as prophesied by the Jewish prophets, he would physically with us to-day and be the king of the world and located in Jerusalem. He would be God on earth.The Old Testament, in the voice of God, says this over and over again. The NT repeats the message.

Orthodox Jews still believe this. Certain Christians, not all, believe the same thing, but with a twist: The Messiah was here, was killed, rose from the dead, went to heaven, and now he is getting ready to return, soon.

It is obvious that the Jesus of the Gospels, and of Paul's writings, made no attempt to mark a place in history. For that matter, neither did Paul himself. Jesus never wrote a book and Paul did not leave a signed copy of what he wrote. The same is true for all the documents that make up the Bible. If this did not matter to them--or to the God of which they wrote--why should it matter to us?

BTW, there were probably scores of people, maybe even hundreds of people, over 2000 years ago, by the name of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John, etc.

WHAT MATTERS TO ME IS NOT THE WHO'S WHO SAID IT, BUT THE TEACHINGS AND THE EXAMPLES
DESCRIBED IN THE WRITINGS.

Many of them no doubt lived exemplary--that is christ-like lives--lives anointed by the spirit of good, or GOD. Whoever they were they helped create the teachings we call the gospels. IMO, the teachings are what is paramount.

IMO, regardless of what we call ourselves: Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, agnostics, atheists, secular humanists, whatever, the teachings of the New Testament make it clear that we will reap what we so, not just what we say we believe. Orthodoxy without orthopraxy is hypocrisy.
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Joesus
post Apr 10, 2009, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 10:17 PM) *

Joesus,

Do you believe that Jesus had full memory of his past lives?
Past and future coexist. Incarnations are not necessarily linear. he was omniscient in his union with omnipresent consciousness.
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 10:17 PM) *

Do you believe Jesus was the Christ incarnate or was he overshadowed by the Christ?

The reference to Christ as the Son of God, is that which is imbued in all of creation as God's image, which is wielded in activity by humans who are awake. Jesus embodied Unified consciousness which includes what is called the miracle power and immortality. He lived, experienced, thought and felt, Christ Consciousness.
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 10:17 PM) *

Do you believe that Jesus Christ resurrected or survived the crucifixion?

He fully remembered his relationship with John the baptist as his teacher Elisha in another life. He, in a sense was not dead before incarnating as a baby through his birth in Bethlehem. Both he Elisha and his teacher Elijah were healing the sick and raising the dead in that incarnation and so the demonstration of ascension was symbolic of his message to humanity that the Christ lives within all who would awaken to it.
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 10:17 PM) *

Have you read the Celestine Prophesy? Do you agree with it?

Have you read the Course in Miracles? Do you agree with it?

Have you read the books of DK by Alice Bailey? Do you agree with it?

I've read "A course in Miracles". I know it to be correct and true.
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 10:17 PM) *

Thanks for a great post it was interesting.
But, I did not say or ever believed that karma was punishment, I said it was a process. Just wanted to make sure I corrected that.
I didn't say you believed it was a punishment, but you seemed surprised when I said Karma could be circumvented and went on to exemplify Hitler, Pol Pot and some others for what it sounded like a need to justify punishment for their actions.
What most don't realize or think about, is that all of those directly affected by their actions were karmicly incarnated within that time and space due to previous action.
The common feeling is that they were victimized by those Historically idolized demons. There are always different ways to look at things.
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catseye
post Apr 10, 2009, 11:20 PM
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It's 3 in the morning to me, so I'm just going to make a few comments.

First off.. Hello Lindsay, nice to meet you.

Learning from Joesus is enjoyable and enlightening. Our conversation grew from my questions in regard to understanding one parable to the process of karma and reincarnation. I don't agree with his view of reincarnation due to my own experiences, but as they say, to each his/er own. My last post to him is just thoughts on what he thinks on various books and his views of Jesus in relation to the life he lived as the christ.

Thanks for the link I reviewed it quickly but will take more time on it later.

you put a few comments in bold print in the quotes of Galatians, I think it wise to first ask why and what for, before I respond to it.

I'm not a devout christian bible thumper, but read the bible as well as many other books. And respect the wisdom therein. I grew up in metaphysical philosophy, Rosicrucian, and with many subjects in learning expanding consciousness. I continue to learn from others (enjoyably) as well as some of the newer books out today.

ok, goodnight.

""He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding; but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly" -Proverbs14:29
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Lindsay
post Apr 11, 2009, 02:47 PM
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"He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding; but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly" -Proverbs14:29

Thanks for your proverb, catseye.

I love it!

My intention is: to live by and act on it. Could we invite others to do the same? If they so choose.


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Phi
post Apr 11, 2009, 04:16 PM
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I'll accept that invite, and also don't see why anybody wouldnt
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post Apr 11, 2009, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE(Phi @ Apr 11, 2009, 04:16 PM) *

I'll accept that invite, and also don't see why anybody wouldnt



invitation accepted and extended !


Phi, I think I just lost 15 minutes staring at your avatar...lol -luv it!
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Phi
post Apr 11, 2009, 05:16 PM
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Feel free to stare at my avatar anytime, you too lindsay
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catseye
post Apr 11, 2009, 05:47 PM
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[quote name='Joesus' date='Apr 10, 2009, 10:52 PM' post='100335']

The reference to Christ as the Son of God, is that which is imbued in all of creation as God's image, which is wielded in activity by humans who are awake. Jesus embodied Unified consciousness which includes what is called the miracle power and immortality. He lived, experienced, thought and felt, Christ Consciousness.


I have read in other forums that some believe Christ is the first Adam, who evolved to the Consciousness of God - I don't have a take on it or enough info on what they were discussing. I do think that Adam was the first man to be aware of a higher life as that of God but I don't think he was the "first" man in creation. Something rang true to me on him being the Christ that guided Jesus though.

To be Christ-like would seem to be both, of being awake to the union of soul and God and in unison with those that evolved ahead of us.

we lose all identity upon this conscious evolution? what is the difference between a person who is awake and the formerly stated?


Joesus:
He fully remembered his relationship with John the baptist as his teacher Elisha in another life. He, in a sense was not dead before incarnating as a baby through his birth in Bethlehem. Both he Elisha and his teacher Elijah were healing the sick and raising the dead in that incarnation and so the demonstration of ascension was symbolic of his message to humanity that the Christ lives within all who would awaken to it.


I have a question on another parable, When Jesus spoke of John upon his death in Matt 11:11
he states that "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he" was he speaking of John? was this because John doubted? the parable is titled "rejection of John the Baptist" I found it disturbing as he praised him in one sentence than said this. If John had lived would he have turned on Jesus as he was more "old testement" and resistant to the new teaching?


Joesus:
I didn't say you believed it was a punishment, but you seemed surprised when I said Karma could be circumvented and went on to exemplify Hitler, Pol Pot and some others for what it sounded like a need to justify punishment for their actions.
What most don't realize or think about, is that all of those directly affected by their actions were karmicly incarnated within that time and space due to previous action.
The common feeling is that they were victimized by those Historically idolized demons. There are always different ways to look at things.


ok, thanks. but doesn't your last sentence cancel out the first? Not that it was punishment, but of an undoing of what was before? Although it's difficult to see why those tortured by these men had to experience this, it would only make sense if they themselves had to understand or clear the madness in themselves, that they created in another life. but still, (in many philosophies) why does pain by the body have a meaning to spiritual cleansing?
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Joesus
post Apr 11, 2009, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE(Phi @ Apr 12, 2009, 12:16 AM) *

I'll accept that invite, and also don't see why anybody wouldnt

Many have good intentions, yet lack the awareness to understand what may be necessary to live within greatness that is sometimes seen as something opposite.
Jesus said he didn't come to make people feel better but to wield a sword that would cut the ties between father and son, mother and daughter. This didn't make him a bad person, in fact his intentions weren't even his own.


QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 12, 2009, 01:47 AM) *

The reference to Christ as the Son of God, is that which is imbued in all of creation as God's image, which is wielded in activity by humans who are awake. Jesus embodied Unified consciousness which includes what is called the miracle power and immortality. He lived, experienced, thought and felt, Christ Consciousness.



I have read in other forums that some believe Christ is the first Adam, who evolved to the Consciousness of God - I don't have a take on it or enough info on what they were discussing. I do think that Adam was the first man to be aware of a higher life as that of God but I don't think he was the "first" man in creation. Something rang true to me on him being the Christ that guided Jesus though.

There are myths to the effect that Adam was one of the first Christed humans to walk the planet. The Urantia book has a lot to say on that subject.
Another analogy is that Adam and Eve represent the dual nature of the brain which is both masculine and feminine. The central nervous system being the tree of life also is capable of adapting to both inner and outer movement of awareness. When the feminine Eve half of the brain moves outward into creation without the balance of the masculine half it can be swept up in the experiences of nature becoming emotionally attached to experience. The masculine half without the intuitive nature of the feminine can be domineering, trying to control and own everything even if it means destroying it to do so. The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is symbolic of the mind turning outward from its neutral nature having a balance of both feminine and masculine qualities like the hermaphrodite and becoming separated and unbalanced as both masculine and feminine become absorbed in sensory activity of the world. Leaving the tree of immortality for the tree of knowledge of good and evil or duality man symbolically descends from a god like status to that of mortal experiencing a life that has a beginning and an end.

QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 12, 2009, 01:47 AM) *

To be Christ-like would seem to be both, of being awake to the union of soul and God and in unison with those that evolved ahead of us.

And being aware that all is one. The symbolism of linear progression is represented by the Sutra Atman or the thread of souls.

QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 12, 2009, 01:47 AM) *

we lose all identity upon this conscious evolution? what is the difference between a person who is awake and the formerly stated?
Conscious awareness of the One.


QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 12, 2009, 01:47 AM) *

Joesus:
He fully remembered his relationship with John the baptist as his teacher Elisha in another life. He, in a sense was not dead before incarnating as a baby through his birth in Bethlehem. Both he Elisha and his teacher Elijah were healing the sick and raising the dead in that incarnation and so the demonstration of ascension was symbolic of his message to humanity that the Christ lives within all who would awaken to it.



I have a question on another parable, When Jesus spoke of John upon his death in Matt 11:11
he states that "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he" was he speaking of John? was this because John doubted? the parable is titled "rejection of John the Baptist" I found it disturbing as he praised him in one sentence than said this. If John had lived would he have turned on Jesus as he was more "old testement" and resistant to the new teaching?

Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Jesus is saying the least in the kingdom of heaven is not greater than John the Baptist, or he's saying there is no greater or lesser. Meaning John the Baptist was not suffering any delusions of the waking state, and did not die to rise to heaven. He already lived heaven on earth in his earthly body. ( And was hinting toward the fact that Elisha was fully realized prior to the incarnation as John.)
Earlier in the passage of Matthew 11
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.


Jesus hints at the real prize: Christ Consciousness and answers the question John poses to his disciples. John asked his disciples is this the man that embodies the Christ or shall we look for another.
Many believe John had given up his faith and lost hope while being imprisoned by Herod only to be beheaded.
It isn't valid nor is the idea that Jesus could have lost his faith after being nailed to the cross before he breathed his last breath. But then those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear...
QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 12, 2009, 01:47 AM) *

Joesus:
I didn't say you believed it was a punishment, but you seemed surprised when I said Karma could be circumvented and went on to exemplify Hitler, Pol Pot and some others for what it sounded like a need to justify punishment for their actions.
What most don't realize or think about, is that all of those directly affected by their actions were karmicly incarnated within that time and space due to previous action.
The common feeling is that they were victimized by those Historically idolized demons. There are always different ways to look at things.



ok, thanks. but doesn't your last sentence cancel out the first? Not that it was punishment, but of an undoing of what was before? Although it's difficult to see why those tortured by these men had to experience this, it would only make sense if they themselves had to understand or clear the madness in themselves, that they created in another life. but still, (in many philosophies) why does pain by the body have a meaning to spiritual cleansing?

It is the belief that the sensory world is real, more real than the spirit within, that has created the contrast. That will continue to exist as the dual nature of continuance or Samsara, the birth and rebirth that is created in the momentum of karma when one propels consciousness thru time and space with beginnings and endings.
There are many ways to perceive the nature of karma and some believe it carries ramifications of good and evil but those concepts are attached to idealism. If one believes there to be opposing forces one will live their lives with the experience of both until they learn to discern the nature of creation.

There is a story of a bunch of monks living in a monastery battling rakshasas (demons). The more they fight or the harder they fight the more the rakshasas increase in numbers and the more they increase their intensity of attack. Finally the monks stop and really look at what is being created. In an instant they turn their awareness to God and dump all their faith into the notion that all is God and that there can be nothing other than God. As quick as they do this the rakshasas vanish and are replaced with harmless and loving celestials.

The allegory represents the battle between spirit and ego. The ego fears for the removal of self identity. Beliefs, opinions, stories of relevance and measure, these are the treasures of the ego. Spirit has no measure and is without boundaries. Spirit does not live for treasure for it is beyond the notion of being without something.

If Adam and Eve were to reunite in the central nervous system or the Tree of life, energy will rise through the Ida and travel down the Pingala to rise again in the Sushumna or spinal column in what is called Kundalini to complete an energetic that lights up the central nervous system producing what is called ascension and awakening consciousness. It is represented in the symbolism of the Caduceus. The two snakes are the Ida and Pingala, the central staff is the Sushumna or central spinal column. The snakes intertwine in and out of the chakras and the eagle wings fully open to represent the opening of the thousand petals of the 7th chakra or full human consciousness and enlightenment.

The teachings of Jesus are the teachings of enlightenment passed on from one master to the next. Jesus was not the first Christed being to walk the earth, nor the first teach enlightenment. There have been many. The bible even mentions a priest by the name of Melchizedek who came to earth 2000 years before Jesus and prophesied the coming of Jesus. The story hints that he, (Melchizedek) wasn't born of a woman but instead manifested fully as an adult and left after performing his ministry the same way he came.
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Enki
post Apr 12, 2009, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 10, 2009, 10:52 PM) *

QUOTE(catseye @ Apr 10, 2009, 10:17 PM) *

Joesus,
Do you believe that Jesus had full memory of his past lives?

Past and future coexist. Incarnations are not necessarily linear. he was omniscient in his union with omnipresent consciousness.


Joe, eeee, how to say that. Hmmm, well, you know Joe that there are rumors that preservation of the secret of Enigma ../.. as a time traveling gateway for DMT creatures and entities is an important secret of the Grand Matrix. Should I remind you about those rumors again Joe?
Certainly there is no publicly available scientific ground for that, but anyway...
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Joesus
post Apr 12, 2009, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE(Enki @ Apr 12, 2009, 04:53 PM) *


Joe, eeee, how to say that. Hmmm, well, you know Joe that there are rumors that preservation of the secret of Enigma 23/17 as a time traveling gateway for DMT creatures and entities is an important secret of the Grand Matrix. Should I remind you about those rumors again Joe?

You could, but I wouldn't put the reminders within the same cosmic context that you do.
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post Apr 12, 2009, 10:11 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 12, 2009, 08:58 AM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Apr 12, 2009, 04:53 PM) *


Joe, eeee, how to say that. Hmmm, well, you know Joe that there are rumors that preservation of the secret of Enigma ../.. as a time traveling gateway for DMT creatures and entities is an important secret of the Grand Matrix. Should I remind you about those rumors again Joe?

You could, but I wouldn't put the reminders within the same cosmic context that you do.


Why to discard ourselves over trifles Joe, so trying to fit ourselves into worldly context, let us speak bluntly between ourselves. Can we? We know that we know what we know.
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post Apr 12, 2009, 10:14 AM
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Common Joe. You know who am I. So let us talk frankly. Why to hide simple things between ourselves. The secret about existence of the secret should be kept in secret, is not it?
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