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> STOP ARGUING!
coberst
post Mar 23, 2010, 08:58 AM
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STOP ARGUING!!

I cannot count the number of times that my mother would shout “STOP ARGUING!” at one or more of my siblings and me.

Years later I learned that ‘argument’ had more meaning than was contained in those youthful experiences.

I obtained an engineering degree and then later studied philosophies before I learned the much broader and important meaning of the word ‘argue’. When I studied “Logic 101”, in philosophy class, my worldview expanded significantly. I did not realize until later that this expansion of my worldview was to change my life completely.

It seems to me that the forum members who participate in a thread approach the experience invigorated with much the same attitude as does a boxer entering the ring or a soldier going into battle.

Metaphor entailments (to transmit or to accompany) we live by:
He attacked my argument.
I have never beaten this guy in an argument.
If you do not agree with my statement then take your best shot.
I shot down each of his arguments.

We approach a forum response much like we approach a physical contest. We have a gut feeling about some things because our sense of correctness comes from our bodies. Our “gut feeling” often informs us as to the ‘correctness’ of some phenomenon. This gut feeling is an attitude; it is one of many types of attitudes. What can we say about this attitude, this gut feeling?

Metaphors We Live By, a book about cognitive science coauthored by Lakoff and Johnson, says a great deal about this attitude. Conceptual metaphor theory, the underlying theory of cognitive science contained in this book, explains how our knowledge is ‘grounded’ in the precise manner in which we optimally interact with the world.

“The essence of metaphor is understanding one kind of thing in terms of another…The metaphor is not merely in the words we use—it is in the very concept of an argument. The language of argument is not poetic, fanciful, or rhetorical: it is literal. We talk about arguments that way because we conceive of them in that way—and we act according to the way we conceive of things.”—Lakoff and Johnson

Let us say that in early childhood I had my first fight with my brother. There was hitting, shoving, crying, screaming, and anger. Neural structure was placed in a mental space that contained the characteristics of this first combat, this was combat #1. Six months later I have a fight with the neighbor kid and we do all the routine thing kids do when fighting.

This is where metaphor theory does its thing. This theory proposes that the characteristics contained in the mental space, combat #1, are automatically mapped into the mental space that is becoming combat #2. The contents of combat #1 become a primary metaphor and the characteristics form the fundamental structure of mental space combat #2.

This example applies to all the experiences a person has. The primary experience is structured into a mental space and thereafter when a similar experience is happening the primary experience becomes the primary metaphor for the next like experience. This primary metaphor becomes the foundation for a concept whether the concept is concrete experience or abstract experience.


What I am saying is that for some reason the Internet discussion forum member considers engaging in a forum thread is a competition, it is a combat, and the primary combat metaphor is mapped into the mental space of this forum experience and thus the forum experience takes on the combat type experience. It seems to that is why lots of forum activity gets very combative.

Is it any wonder that the adrenalin starts pumping as soon as we start reading the responses to our post?

Do you feel like you are in a battle with me after reading my claims?

Is this why most replies are negative?

Another way that argument resembles war is that both in war and in arguments there is a great deal of bluff and bluster with little intellectual activity.




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Rick
post Mar 23, 2010, 10:49 AM
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I'm not going to argue with that.
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post Mar 23, 2010, 12:27 PM
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after all.... anyone, well almost anyone, is entitled to there own opinion of things!
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Rick
post Mar 23, 2010, 01:46 PM
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No they are not! People are only "entitled" to believe true things! Otherwise, there would be no arguments.

We have a finite lifetime, and therefore a finite understanding and knowledge. Why clutter up a mind with a bunch of falsehoods? It makes the business of thinking so much more counterproductive when false beliefs get mixed in with facts.
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Hey Hey
post Mar 23, 2010, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 23, 2010, 09:46 PM) *
People are only "entitled" to believe true things!
And who's to say what the truth is? (Thinks, "Politics through time and superseded physical theories, for starters.")
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post Mar 23, 2010, 04:25 PM
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I said 'opinions' not 'beliefs'!
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Rick
post Mar 23, 2010, 05:26 PM
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OK, as long as you don't believe your opinions!

If you can't be sure of some truth, then believe nothing.
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coberst
post Mar 24, 2010, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 23, 2010, 12:27 PM) *

after all.... anyone, well almost anyone, is entitled to there own opinion of things!


Opinions are a dime-a-dozen, almost everyone has an opinion about almost everything. We need to wait until we have developed a considered opinion before we voice it.
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post Mar 24, 2010, 08:49 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 23, 2010, 09:26 PM) *

OK, as long as you don't believe your opinions!

If you can't be sure of some truth, then believe nothing.

I'm unsure.... are YOU referring to me specifically or are YOU just using YOU and YOUR in a generalized way!

There are many truths out there!
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post Mar 24, 2010, 08:50 AM
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QUOTE(coberst @ Mar 24, 2010, 05:56 AM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 23, 2010, 12:27 PM) *

after all.... anyone, well almost anyone, is entitled to there own opinion of things!


Opinions are a dime-a-dozen, almost everyone has an opinion about almost everything. We need to wait until we have developed a considered opinion before we voice it.

that's original.... maybe WE should take OUR own advice!
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Rick
post Mar 24, 2010, 09:35 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 24, 2010, 09:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 23, 2010, 09:26 PM) *

OK, as long as you don't believe your opinions!

If you can't be sure of some truth, then believe nothing.

I'm unsure.... are YOU referring to me specifically or are YOU just using YOU and YOUR in a generalized way!

There are many truths out there!

Yes, but don't take it personally.

One definition of "truth" is that it's what you believe. If one accepts that definition, then one must allow that there are many conflicting truths. I don't accept that definition because to my way of thinking, truth must be coherent. That is, the whole system must make sense within itself, including all the actors in the system.

That's why I argue. When I encounter a false belief in another that conflicts with the truth, I must say "you're wrong and must change your belief." When I detect a false belief within my own mind, I change it.
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post Mar 24, 2010, 09:47 AM
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.... there are collective truths and there are individual truths and there is the ultimate truth.... of which, I believe most here are in search of! Of course, we both know that you and I were reared under different ideological and cognitive paradigms, which inevitably leads to opposing, yet similar, cognitive and psychological beliefs (truths).

.... and honestly, nothing you or anyone anywhere else ever says do I ever take it personally because the knowledge and educated truths that I posses elevates understanding and motivation to other informed planes of meanings.

.... but, of course, like I said.... you are entitled to your opinion of things (because it is, after all, your truth)!

ps.... can I get your daughters number wink.gif
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post Mar 24, 2010, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2010, 01:35 PM) *

I don't accept that definition because to my way of thinking, truth must be coherent.

.... coherent to you, not necessarily to others! Of course universal truths like 2 + 2 will always = 4, but psychological (phenomenological) truths do not always collectively gel else the human species would have never evolved! Individual insights and truths are what propel the collective mind in a forward direction, for the benefit of the species!
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post Mar 24, 2010, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 23, 2010, 09:26 PM) *

OK, as long as you don't believe your opinions!

If you can't be sure of some truth, then believe nothing.


since this was directed to me specifically.... I do believe in my opinions as they have been arrived via a healthy balance of an in depth education and of a life rigorously lived. Now some of those opinions that I put forth are far more inflexible than others.... but I'm not saying all of my opinions are absolute, but I'm still entitled to them!
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Joesus
post Mar 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE(coberst @ Mar 24, 2010, 09:56 AM) *


Opinions are a dime-a-dozen, almost everyone has an opinion about almost everything. We need to wait until we have developed a considered opinion before we voice it.

Not necessarily. People often ignore their own intuitive insights by assuming they have no relevance until it is backed by another's opinions. In such a case something that is relevant is thrown away and compromised by something that is possibly inferior or out of date.
If Columbus had an opinion that the earth was not flat but instead round, and he waited to develop an opinion considered by the current foundation of opinion and belief, he could have, (if he were not so unconvinced by the opinions of others) given his own insight to the junkpile.
Intuition is often ignored because opinion might assume it doesn't have any scientific basis or inherent reality to the process of knowledge and experience.

Opinions derived from beliefs, which change, should be objectively presented with the understanding that all that is not permanent or real, will dissolve back into the realm from which they came. Leaving whatever is substantial visible. But no thing is permanent..

I don't agree with Rick that we have only one lifetime.

And I don't subscribe to the beliefs that we can hold onto anything that is being produced here in this particular lifetime.
1) You can't take anything you gain here with you, and you will leave it behind.
2) Whatever you do leave behind may or may not last or benefit humanity as it continues beyond your lifetime.
3) IF what you contribute offers something that takes hold in some future experience of humanity, what the people of that future do with it will be judged as either effective, important or relative by another future, regardless of whether there was any relative benefits to the existing life experience. Just as each person in any generation applies their own opinions of value to what is here in the domain of personal beliefs and personal comprehension of reality. Each generation discards the past for their idealization of the future often ignoring the reality of the NOW.

The now contains every possible intuitive response to past events and possible or probable futures. If the mind is narrowed to a single thought or idea about the present moment and argues for it, there may be no value given to possibilities beyond what is argued for if objectivity is abandoned for the attachment to a present belief.
If one waits to comprehensively decide what reality is, based on opinions collected outside of ones own personal experience, one often denies the personal experience and abandons any gains in the personal reality for values assumed by others.
If the general opinion is based on beliefs that are changing, or changing experiences, then one will have to assume that one can only argue for limitations of changing experiences and beliefs.

Philosophy moves the mind toward finding value within the comprehensive abilities of man and his environment, so that illusions can be abandoned for the things in life which are common to every generation of man and survive thru changing beliefs and experiences. Value is given then to everything that is sacrificed upon the alter of life so that what is real can continue to expand the world and humanity.
The only problem lay within the ego and its need for glory or self gratification, which will have to be surrendered upon death anyway, so why not just give it up now and continue to offer fuel to the fire, with the awareness that your log aint the only log on the fire.
And that you don't need to devalue your log or value another over yours.

Arguing is a waste of time, and it narrows the perspective and comprehensive insight of conscious awareness.
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Rick
post Mar 24, 2010, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 24, 2010, 11:24 AM) *
I don't agree with Rick that we have only one lifetime.

...

The only problem lay within the ego and its need for glory or self gratification, which will have to be surrendered upon death anyway, so why not just give it up now and continue to offer fuel to the fire, with the awareness that your log aint the only log on the fire.

Death obliterates individuality the same way a raindrop is obliterated when it returns to the sea.
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coberst
post Mar 24, 2010, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 24, 2010, 08:50 AM) *

QUOTE(coberst @ Mar 24, 2010, 05:56 AM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 23, 2010, 12:27 PM) *

after all.... anyone, well almost anyone, is entitled to there own opinion of things!


Opinions are a dime-a-dozen, almost everyone has an opinion about almost everything. We need to wait until we have developed a considered opinion before we voice it.

that's original.... maybe WE should take OUR own advice!


The best way to learn is to study the works of the worlds best thinkers.
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post Mar 24, 2010, 11:03 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2010, 06:48 PM) *

Death obliterates individuality the same way a raindrop is obliterated when it returns to the sea.
In the law of cause and effect or re-incarnation, death is only a break in the attachment to one idea of personality as the house it is contained in gives out from a lack of insight to the power of immortality.
The Raindrop was never other than the ocean, and when it returns to the ocean it does not lose the memory of the experience of individuality or the experience of being a raindrop, any more than when a man becomes a man and no longer a child, does the man lose all perspectives of childhood.


QUOTE(coberst @ Mar 24, 2010, 06:48 PM) *

The best way to learn is to study the works of the worlds best thinkers.

And who shall lead the way to the works of the best thinkers if one is lacking in good, better or best thinking?

You can lead a horse to water.....
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Rick
post Mar 24, 2010, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 24, 2010, 12:03 PM) *
... does not lose the memory of the experience of individuality or the experience of being a raindrop ...

Until we learn exactly how memories are recorded in the brain, we won't know the mechanisms required to continue holding memories after the brain decomposes after death.
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post Mar 24, 2010, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2010, 09:16 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 24, 2010, 12:03 PM) *
... does not lose the memory of the experience of individuality or the experience of being a raindrop ...

Until we learn exactly how memories are recorded in the brain, we won't know the mechanisms required to continue holding memories after the brain decomposes after death.

It's not a question of the brain retaining anything. Its the ability of consciousness to utilize the brain to bring forward the imprint placed upon universal mind. If one accepts the past without having the experience what allows the past to be true? It's not the personal memory that imprints the past events upon the brain if it wasn't directly experienced, its something much bigger that brings a collective into an agreement when recognizing something outside of the time period.

By universal mind I mean the structure of the universe that is order. If it exists it is both measurable and experiential. Some might call it universal force or life force, but it keeps us on a track of evolution and expansion of both knowledge and experience.
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Rick
post Mar 24, 2010, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 24, 2010, 03:39 PM) *
... it keeps us on a track of evolution ...

How and why? I thought evolution worked by the theory of natural selection. Is something more needed to explain it?
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post Mar 24, 2010, 04:30 PM
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keep evolving rick.... it's the evolution of evolution!

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2010, 05:16 PM) *

....the mechanisms required....

interesting analogy.... why a mechanism? Does it have to be explained via a mechanism?
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post Mar 24, 2010, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2010, 10:54 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 24, 2010, 03:39 PM) *
... it keeps us on a track of evolution ...

How and why? I thought evolution worked by the theory of natural selection. Is something more needed to explain it?

Then natural selection if you will. What is it that keeps selection natural? What is natural and how is it kept in place rather than everything being chaotic as a rule? Whatever that force is, it extends itself not only in animals but humans and human endeavor.
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Rick
post Mar 29, 2010, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 24, 2010, 05:30 PM) *

keep evolving rick.... it's the evolution of evolution!

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2010, 05:16 PM) *

....the mechanisms required....

interesting analogy.... why a mechanism? Does it have to be explained via a mechanism?

Yes, unless you can come up with a better one.
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