BrainMeta'   Connectomics'  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Writing a Philosophy Essay on "Time is not real" (HELP), Time, Is time real?
why-think
post Nov 13, 2007, 04:02 PM
Post #1


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Member No.: 14395



I am very interested on the topic but know very little in comparison to the people I've seen posting. I was hoping for some help on the topic, including some good sources as well as some of your opinions and/or input.

Any help is greatly appreciated!! (Topic "Time is not real")

Thanks a lot,
foursquare
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Nov 13, 2007, 04:25 PM
Post #2


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



Time as we experience in life via consciousness is real. However, time, as conceptualized by people in general and in physics is not real, but an abstraction. Treating time as real leads to fallacies.

For example, the first fallacy one runs into by treating time as real is time travel paradoxes. Around the turn of the 19th century, H.G. Wells popularized the notion of time as the fourth dimension with his science fiction novel The Time Machine. Time travel results in all sorts of nonsensical paradoxes such as the ability to kill one's grandfather.

So then one is led to say that perhaps time is real, but one can't go backward in it, only forward. That leads to another problem. If time is a real dimension, then the past and the future have some kind of existence. That is, the future is a real "place" in space-time that if we just wait a bit we will be there. However, a 4-d spacetime with a real time dimension implies that the future is pre-ordained, fixed for all time, and unchangeable. That is clearly not the case (see the free will discussions).

A counter-argument (that time is indeed real) is the fact that time is essential in physical laws, forumlas, and computations. Physics equations are full of the variable "t" for time. However, the variable t can be replaced with an equivalent energy term so that "t" disappears from physics. Instead of velocity (meters per second) we have momentum or energy, for example. This makes the equations more complex, and unwieldy, so no physicist does it. Thus it can be seen that time is merely a computational convenience for physics as well as ordinary thinking and planning, not something that has an actual existence. The illusion of the reality of time comes form our very real sensation of the passage of time, which is an aspect of human experience (consciousness).
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maximus242
post Nov 13, 2007, 10:15 PM
Post #3


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1755
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Member No.: 4768



Oh my, well you asked the right place, I have been thinking about such things a great deal, here are some thoughts I have on this matter.

Time is the perception of actions relative to other actions. That is, Time - is how we as conscious beings perceive the order of events, by judging them relatively to events which we perceive as consistent. In layman's terms this means that we perceive time by comparing different events relative to things such as the sun, daylight, the moon, etc.

How we measure time is by taking something fairly consistent, like the cycles of the moon and judging the length of an event relative to something such as the moon. In the modern day we judge events relative to things such as how long it takes for an electrical signal to make its way through a circuit. That would be in reference to what is known as digital watches.

Another example is how long it takes a piece of machinery to go through its mechanical circuit and cause a change. This is relative to mechanical watches which count the seconds, hours and even days of what we perceive as time.

So, what this means is, Time is a way of judging an action or event based off of another event perceived as being consistent. The reality about time is that it is a way for us to observe the universe by comparing different things in the universe with each other.

What we are really saying when we say something like "It will take one month" is that the proposed paper will take one mooon rotation to complete. Thus we are comparing a variable (the paper) to a constant (the moons rotation around the earth) to give a comparison, thereby allowing a person to judge when they can expect to receive said paper.

Hope I am not being to cryptic, if you have any questions let me know.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Nov 14, 2007, 03:37 AM
Post #4


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



Time isn't real: Many terms people are familiar with are entirely human contructs and have no relation to Reality. Time is one of them in my opinion, although as a self-referencing idea it works as max has pointed out. We measure the passing of time by recording whats happening in this moment and giving it a marker like a date. Imagine the world without a recorded history, or without techniques for dating objects...there would only be this moment right here and now. The world would quickly forget grudges in a generation or two, the would become more fluid.

Humans see time as a linear process, everything has a past, present and future. I doubt this is the true reality of what time is. Our science fiction stories of time travel are so far from the reality that we are fools to believe its possible. Time is only a way to measure the transformation of energy in the Universe, we will never be able to return to a previous state by going backwards in it as if times a large hamster wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

QUOTE
In 5th century BC Greece, Antiphon the Sophist, in a fragment preserved from his chief work On Truth held that: "Time is not a reality (hupostasis), but a concept (noêma) or a measure (metron)." Parmenides went further, maintaining that time, motion, and change were illusions, leading to the paradoxes of his follower Zeno.[18] Time as illusion is also a common theme in Buddhist thought,[19] and some modern philosophers have carried on with this theme. J. M. E. McTaggart's 1908 The Unreality of Time, for example, argues that time is unreal (see also The flow of time).

However, these arguments often center around what it means for something to be "real". Modern physicists generally consider time to be as "real" as space, though others such as Julian Barbour in his The End of Time argue that quantum equations of the universe take their true form when expressed in the timeless configuration spacerealm containing every possible "Now" or momentary configuration of the universe, which he terms 'platonia'.[20]
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Nov 14, 2007, 09:17 AM
Post #5


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



Also see the very interesting book A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy Of Godel And Einstein:

http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Time-F...n/dp/0465092934

Time is indeed unreal.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maximus242
post Nov 14, 2007, 11:18 AM
Post #6


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1755
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Member No.: 4768



In reference to proposed time travel, the actual concept of traveling through time is fairly simple. I think of time as the way of measuring changes in the universe to other changes, so in order to go backwards through time its quite simple.

One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period. Of course actually doing such a thing is a whole different matter. But in essence, since nothing is created or destroyed, you only need to revert matter to a previous state.

Of course the implications for such a thing as well as the mind boggling mathematical equations required just to calculate such a feat are enormous. Not to mention the hundreds of things which could go wrong.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lindsay
post Nov 14, 2007, 11:35 AM
Post #7


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1730
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
From: Markham (Thornhill), part of the greater Toronto area, the GTA, just north of Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 4838



THINGS TO THINK ABOUT
====================
ABOUT REALITY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality
ABOUT EXISTENCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonexistence
ABOUT ONTOLOGY--the study of existence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
ABOUT TIME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Nov 14, 2007, 11:42 AM
Post #8


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



QUOTE(max)
One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period
This would require that matter had knowledge of its previous state and/or the laws of physics can work in reverse.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maximus242
post Nov 14, 2007, 01:39 PM
Post #9


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1755
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Member No.: 4768



Yes I realize there are many problems with the concepts of time travel right now, if there were not, then we would probably have already traveled back in "time".
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
why-think
post Nov 14, 2007, 02:19 PM
Post #10


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Member No.: 14395



Wow! Thanks so much guys. You have all really helped me start to wrap my head around the concept. Max, i will surly need more help and so i will most likely ask.

Thanks again for all the help!!! Please be sure to keep commenting when other thoughts occur on the matter and do not hesitate to contact me (e-mail) if you have anything you want to add.

Foursquare
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Nov 14, 2007, 02:49 PM
Post #11


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 14, 2007, 01:39 PM) *

Yes I realize there are many problems with the concepts of time travel right now, if there were not, then we would probably have already traveled back in "time".

Indeed. If time travel were technically possible, it will be invented in the future, and there would be time tourists all around us, killing their ancestors' enemies and such.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lindsay
post Nov 14, 2007, 03:01 PM
Post #12


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1730
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
From: Markham (Thornhill), part of the greater Toronto area, the GTA, just north of Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 4838



QUOTE(Rick @ Nov 14, 2007, 02:49 PM) *

...If time travel were technically possible, it will be invented in the future, and there would be time tourists all around us, killing their ancestors' enemies and such.

Amusing!

BUT SERIOUSLY
I feel that it will eventually be possible to time-travel, but only to the past. I think of it as the ultimate in lie-detecting. To a limited extent, we can do it now.

Without any control over of what we see and hear, we will simply be observers of what actually happened. Imagine the value this will have in our courts.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
why-think
post Nov 14, 2007, 06:14 PM
Post #13


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Member No.: 14395



Thanks for all the input rick!! and others, keep it coming!!
foursquare
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
code buttons
post Nov 14, 2007, 07:32 PM
Post #14


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 2450
Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Member No.: 4556



QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 14, 2007, 11:18 AM) *

In reference to proposed time travel, the actual concept of traveling through time is fairly simple. I think of time as the way of measuring changes in the universe to other changes, so in order to go backwards through time its quite simple.

One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period. Of course actually doing such a thing is a whole different matter. But in essence, since nothing is created or destroyed, you only need to revert matter to a previous state.

Of course the implications for such a thing as well as the mind boggling mathematical equations required just to calculate such a feat are enormous. Not to mention the hundreds of things which could go wrong.

Hey, that's a pretty good observation there Max. But, being that time is the movement of matter throughout space, then we'd have two major "dimensions" that we'd have to manipulate. And then, if energy and matter are exchangable as proposed, there you have a whole other problem! Forget it! I like the "time is not real' statement better already. But, if time is not real, what is real, then? Personally, I view time a little bit the way T_L does: some kind of bipolar abstraction. objective and subjective. Relative and otherwise. Hate it and love it. Too much and not enough of. A year seemed like a decade when I was a kid. My granmother tells me that Christmans comes around every 3 months or so to her, nowadays. Now, as I reason about my purpose in life, and how I am going to go about it, I realize how much I hate time; as it drags on forever, or so it seems, before I can get on with the things I've set out to accomplish before I run out of... you know!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Clothes
post May 14, 2011, 04:15 AM
Post #15


Unregistered









Big thanks
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
njwoods
post Jun 16, 2011, 09:34 AM
Post #16


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Apr 03, 2009
Member No.: 32015



There was an interesting television program that I saw recently with Stephen Hawking discussing the possibility of time travel. He stated that it is not likely to travel back in time due to a causality feedback loop. His describes by using the analogy of sound traveling into a microphone, travelling out through the speakers which in turn is picked up by the mic and loops in upon itself increasingly until it creates feedback which ultimate will destroy the sound waves (and the equipment etc).

Travel to the future is already possible to some degree. We see it evidenced in small ways like the difference in ground time and objects further away from the gravitational pull of the earth (satellites for instance).

Here is a related article putting it more succinctly:

dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1269288/STEPHEN-HAWKING-How-build-time-machine.html
The easiest way to buy health insurance online.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
IdentitytheKeystone
post Jul 01, 2011, 11:54 PM
Post #17


Unregistered









QUOTE(Pentax @ Jun 29, 2011, 07:00 AM) *

thank you for information



Hello - My simple contribution is vote that time is simply the measure of change. I think it is not real. In the 4D model of the universt, time is a compression of all change not quatified by the first three dimensions. I think time is not a dimension that can be travelled.
I believe the onus is on those who speculate about time travel to explain how the notion of time is real.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maximus242
post Jul 03, 2011, 07:47 AM
Post #18


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1755
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Member No.: 4768



QUOTE(code buttons @ Nov 14, 2007, 09:32 PM) *

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 14, 2007, 11:18 AM) *

In reference to proposed time travel, the actual concept of traveling through time is fairly simple. I think of time as the way of measuring changes in the universe to other changes, so in order to go backwards through time its quite simple.

One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period. Of course actually doing such a thing is a whole different matter. But in essence, since nothing is created or destroyed, you only need to revert matter to a previous state.

Of course the implications for such a thing as well as the mind boggling mathematical equations required just to calculate such a feat are enormous. Not to mention the hundreds of things which could go wrong.

Hey, that's a pretty good observation there Max. But, being that time is the movement of matter throughout space, then we'd have two major "dimensions" that we'd have to manipulate. And then, if energy and matter are exchangable as proposed, there you have a whole other problem! Forget it! I like the "time is not real' statement better already. But, if time is not real, what is real, then? Personally, I view time a little bit the way T_L does: some kind of bipolar abstraction. objective and subjective. Relative and otherwise. Hate it and love it. Too much and not enough of. A year seemed like a decade when I was a kid. My granmother tells me that Christmans comes around every 3 months or so to her, nowadays. Now, as I reason about my purpose in life, and how I am going to go about it, I realize how much I hate time; as it drags on forever, or so it seems, before I can get on with the things I've set out to accomplish before I run out of... you know!


to me time is measurement
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Jul 03, 2011, 07:51 AM
Post #19


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4066
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



An effect of identity with evolution. What comes first, what comes second etc. etc.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maximus242
post Jul 03, 2011, 08:13 PM
Post #20


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1755
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Member No.: 4768



Its possible that time is non linear but human perception of time certainly appears to be linear
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Jul 04, 2011, 06:29 AM
Post #21


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4066
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 04, 2011, 04:13 AM) *

Its possible that time is non linear but human perception of time certainly appears to be linear

Time is a cognitive, human endeavor to put thoughts into order as an experience of cause and effect. Time is linear, but Time is not a commanding or principle ruler of consciousness. Consciousness creates the idea and experience of time but is not bound by time. Consciousness moves in and out of time and exists in all times at all times where time does not exist.. NOW is. Awareness can span past present and future probabilities in multidimensional realities without any linear progression or regression.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maximus242
post Jul 04, 2011, 08:45 AM
Post #22


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1755
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Member No.: 4768



interesting point, though i would say its not put into order as cause and effect that is a separate part of consciousness used in evaluation and abstraction.

That is quite an interesting set of concepts you put forth though. Basically it comes down to a question of what is our experience of reality, where do you draw the line?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Joesus
post Jul 04, 2011, 01:37 PM
Post #23


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 4066
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
From: nowhere and everywhere
Member No.: 601



QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 04, 2011, 04:45 PM) *

interesting point, though i would say its not put into order as cause and effect that is a separate part of consciousness used in evaluation and abstraction.


The idea of cause and effect is often evaluated as an abstract. However as a universal law, it is perfectly mechanical. Take consciousness into activity and the result is manifest reality, at all levels of perception and dimensional possibilities. It is the reason the Universe exists and can be experienced. Awareness can be isolated into one idea and experience or in a thousand places at the same time without overwhelming consciousness.

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 04, 2011, 04:45 PM) *

That is quite an interesting set of concepts you put forth though. Basically it comes down to a question of what is our experience of reality, where do you draw the line?


I personally see no line as necessary to the isolation of any experience or thought. Life is perpetual and without end. Only the ego draws a line at the end of a particular storyline or death. Consciousness does not die or end when the personal story transitions into something different any more than a man dies when his eyes close at night to enter a different dream than the one he dreams during the day.

If you don't draw any lines what will your experience of reality be? Obviously we all share a perception that reality exists but no two people see the world or feel it exactly the same way. This would lead us to the awareness that the world is not a something that can only be seen and experienced one way, but rather it is something that we decide is real or not real, and our beliefs are altering our experiences as they change.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Digital Apotheosis
post Apr 16, 2013, 04:45 AM
Post #24


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Apr 16, 2013
Member No.: 35051



Time is a human measurement of motion. Motion tends to flow in the direction of increased entropy.

But time is just another dimension like the three spatial dimensions... so past and future already exist
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
sindy
post Apr 18, 2015, 04:17 AM
Post #25


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Apr 17, 2015
Member No.: 37655



QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 14, 2007, 12:18 PM) *

In reference to proposed time travel, the actual concept of traveling through time is fairly simple. I think of time as the way of measuring changes in the universe to other changes, so in order to go backwards through time its quite simple.

One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period. Of course actually doing such a thing is a whole different matter. But in essence, since nothing is created or destroyed, you only need to revert matter to a previous state.

Of course the implications for such a thing as well as the mind boggling mathematical equations required just to calculate such a feat are enormous. Not to mention the hundreds of things which could go wrong.


Awesome. Need to think twice after reading your first post that how should i reply in here. Nice work
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st October 2017 - 02:05 AM


Home     |     About     |    Research     |    Forum     |    Feedback  


Copyright BrainMeta. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use  |  Last Modified Tue Jan 17 2006 12:39 am

Consciousness Expansion · Brain Mapping · Neural Circuits · Connectomics  ·  Neuroscience Forum  ·  Brain Maps Blog
 · Connectomics · Connectomics  ·  shawn mikula  ·  shawn mikula  ·  articles