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Happy Sadist
post Nov 27, 2003, 07:09 AM
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Is what the columbine kids did (going on a killing spree out of anger of not being accepted and being unloved) any different to when God killed everyone for not praising him in the (Noah's Ark) flood?
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John Doe
post Nov 27, 2003, 07:20 AM
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hardly anyone believes in the validity of the bible so i don't see your point
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John Doe
post Nov 27, 2003, 07:35 AM
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what i'd like to know is why would anyone want to throw away their life to go on a killing spree? I mean whatever anger you have could be used more constructively and in a manner that's life affirming.
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Happy Sadist
post Nov 27, 2003, 12:26 PM
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I know quite a few people who live by the bible this is directed at those kinds I guess....

And yeah, I agree with the killing spree thing. However, I could see how it would be satisfying. Dont get me wrong I would never kill anyone, I dont hate anyone. BUT.... say there was some virtual reality type game, that seemed exactly like real life, I would probably kill people and have a whole lot of fun doing it. So I guess some people who actually go on killing sprees feel that way but lose the rationality to see that this is not a game and there will be consequences, not just to them but I mean people losing their lives also. Or just get to a point so far that they dont care. Who knows really
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Joesus
post Nov 28, 2003, 11:09 AM
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Do you think that the kids that were involved with the shooting were as conscious as God when he created the flood and do you think maybe there is something greater to the biblical story that what the church portrays?
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AmbientSnowflake
post Dec 01, 2003, 07:55 AM
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I'm sure they felt somewhat godlike. They held the power over life and death for a few moments. And only a god can be concious like a god, anyway.

Whatever the Church has portrayed as the meaning of the flood stands at question. Interpretation of the Bible is suspect to many questions that don't always get answered. Sometimes a particular group of people in a church will try to find concrete answers in Biblical text. The major problem is that there are no concrete answers.

Can anyone completely trust the perspective of interpretation?

What are the differences between the Columbine shootings and the mythical story about the great flood?
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tammy54
post Dec 02, 2003, 01:36 AM
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It's a little ignorant to classify or find similaritiys between the columbine shootings and the great flood. There would be huge difference.
God created those beings, he demonstrated his power, jelosy, revenge, and love. What did the columbine shooters have to say... "we need to... kick start a revolution. We neeed to get a chain reaction going here". He wanted to start a chain of hate; god wanted to start a chain of love.
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angelroze
post Dec 04, 2003, 09:21 AM
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yeah its different, they were doing it bcuz they were mad, they counldt handle it anymore, people wre rude, god did it bcuz people wre sinning. yes making fun of someone is a sin of sorts, but its not like what they were doing when god destryed them all. God is god, those kids at colimbine dont have the right to decide who dies and who doesnt. tho ic an understand why they did what they did. if i had the guts i would probably do it t my school, then kill myself too. i mean that would be better than just going quietly, well maybe not, but i can understand, they had so much anger bottled up inside bcuz people have NO feelings, they just reacted.
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Eddie
post Dec 16, 2003, 09:40 PM
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It was not the case that Noah, if he existed, and his crew, were the only survivors of the Great Flood, which there is archaeological evidence for. The implication of this, of course, is that this means there could be other falsifications leading one to believe that the tale was a moral tale, folklore intended to guide, which is the Catholic Church's unofficial position, among the higher-ups, on most of Genesis.
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angelroze
post Dec 18, 2003, 05:59 PM
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ok, do you want to explain that again in english? for those of us stupid people?
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louise
post Dec 27, 2003, 11:44 PM
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Not an answer to the original question, just a fine point on the Noah thing. God didn't destroy people because they "weren't praising him". Genesis 6:4 refers to an interesting situation this isn't really mentioned again, that "the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them." A generally accepted view held by many Bible scholars is that mankind had to be cleansed of this, to ensure that Jesus' lineage would be perfectly human. Noah's family was exempted because their offspring was free of this. It can be possibly interpreted that people knew that procreation with the sons of God was wrong; the implication of the 'wickedness of men' and the righteousness of Noah. It's arguable, but that's another debate.

Does this change the tenor of the argument? Probably not, but what the hey, thought I'd throw it in anyway.
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Pastor John
post Nov 04, 2005, 06:30 AM
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QUOTE (Happy Sadist @ Nov 27, 07:09 AM)
Is what the columbine kids did (going on a killing spree out of anger of not being accepted and being unloved) any different to when God killed everyone for not praising him in the (Noah's Ark) flood?

No, for one they weren't God so they can't choose life or death @

http://www.covenantpeoplesministry.org/ser...ahs_flood1.html

http://www.covenantpeoplesministry.org/ser...ahs_flood2.html

http://www.covenantpeoplesministry.org/ser...ike_a_dove.html

Secondly, God destroyed the mixed Nephalim -- not students.

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Unknown
post Nov 04, 2005, 07:20 AM
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QUOTE (Pastor John @ Nov 04, 06:30 AM)
QUOTE (Happy Sadist @ Nov 27, 07:09 AM)
Is what the columbine kids did (going on a killing spree out of anger of not being accepted and being unloved) any different to when God killed everyone for not praising him in the (Noah's Ark) flood?

No, for one they weren't God so they can't choose life or death @

http://www.covenantpeoplesministry.org/ser...ahs_flood1.html

http://www.covenantpeoplesministry.org/ser...ahs_flood2.html

http://www.covenantpeoplesministry.org/ser...ike_a_dove.html

Secondly, God destroyed the mixed Nephalim -- not students.

A Christian pastor in our mists! Now we are really going to have some fun!
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Unknown
post Nov 04, 2005, 08:22 AM
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since God is, by definition, omnipotent, the columbine kids were possible only through God. They were doing God's will, just as everything else does God's will; otherwise, God is not omnipotent.
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Pastor John
post Nov 04, 2005, 09:34 PM
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God's Will aside, the question was:

QUOTE
Is what the columbine kids did (going on a killing spree out of anger of not being accepted and being unloved) any different to when God killed everyone for not praising him in the (Noah's Ark) flood?


The flood was brought on because:

QUOTE
Gen 6:1-6; "It came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."


The Columbine murderers are thankfully in Hell:

QUOTE
1Jo 3:15; "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."


So again, they didn't kill because they were upset with evil -- they WERE evil.
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Rick
post Nov 07, 2005, 12:45 PM
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It's hard to win a rational argument using bible quotations. There are too many contradicitons in it. Didn't Jesus say that whoever believed in him would have eternal life?

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code buttons
post Nov 07, 2005, 01:00 PM
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Convictions out rational thought should always win arguments. But in the real world things are not so.
When the day comes that we put aside our ideological differences for the benefit of life itself, then we can say that we have taken a giant step forward in progress.
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Rick
post Nov 07, 2005, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (Pastor John @ Nov 04, 10:34 PM)
The Columbine murderers are thankfully in Hell ...

I think it's more likely that those evil-doers have ceased to exist, as there is compelling evidence that consciousness requires brain function to exist.
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Bill S. Preston Esq.
post Nov 07, 2005, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 07, 01:07 PM)
QUOTE (Pastor John @ Nov 04, 10:34 PM)
The Columbine murderers are thankfully in Hell ...

I think it's more likely that those evil-doers have ceased to exist, as there is compelling evidence that consciousness requires brain function to exist.

Is Hell not the grave? rolleyes.gif
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Rick
post Nov 08, 2005, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE (Bill S. Preston Esq. @ Nov 07, 07:26 PM)
Is Hell not the grave?

No, Hell is a mythical place of torment. Death is not torment; it is the end of suffering. Cessation of existence of the individual is not to be unnecessarily feared as it is the natural fate of all living things. The natural will to live implies a proper fear of death, but fear of fictional torment after death is unwarranted.
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Unknown
post Nov 08, 2005, 11:05 AM
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Earth is Hell!
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Rick
post Nov 08, 2005, 01:15 PM
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It will be if the Republicans continue to have their way.
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rhymer
post Nov 08, 2005, 01:41 PM
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Is Hell a place or an experience or both?
Is Heaven a place or an experience or both?
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Rick
post Nov 08, 2005, 02:56 PM
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Heaven and Hell are imaginary places in monotheistic theological myths. Their supposed qualities are such that "hellish" and "heavenly" experiences have acquired their respective names from those myths.
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Unknown
post Nov 08, 2005, 07:18 PM
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So, what's the payback for someone like Hitler? Did he get away with killing 6 million Jews, amongs other crimes?
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Unknown
post Nov 09, 2005, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Nov 08, 07:18 PM)
So, what's the payback for someone like Hitler? Did he get away with killing 6 million Jews, amongs other crimes?

What sort of question is that? Is that supposed to be an argument in favor of the existence of heaven and hell, so that ppl like Hitler can go to hell and be punished for their crimes?

If you accept that we are all part of the One, and that concepts of 'me' and 'other' are illusionary distinctions that belie the unity and interconnectedness of everything, then the of questions as the one that you posed about Hitler getting his due, never even arise.
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Unknown
post Nov 09, 2005, 07:19 AM
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Nov 08, 11:05 AM)
Earth is Hell!

It is what you make of it.
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Unknown
post Nov 09, 2005, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Nov 09, 07:18 AM)
QUOTE (Unknown @ Nov 08, 07:18 PM)
So, what's the payback for someone like Hitler? Did he get away with killing 6 million Jews, amongs other crimes?

What sort of question is that? Is that supposed to be an argument in favor of the existence of heaven and hell, so that ppl like Hitler can go to hell and be punished for their crimes?

If you accept that we are all part of the One, and that concepts of 'me' and 'other' are illusionary distinctions that belie the unity and interconnectedness of everything, then the of questions as the one that you posed about Hitler getting his due, never even arise.

It's just human nature to get frustrated at the realization that some human beings can be so cruel and yet seem to be able to get away with it somehow. Like Bin Laden, for whom death would be an easy way out. It seems so unfare.
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Rick
post Nov 09, 2005, 10:40 AM
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Nov 09, 09:40 AM)
... It seems so unfare.

It's human nature to desire fairness (or justice). We wish it were so, and wishful thinking is a common human weakness. Many of our religious myths are based on wishful thinking. We want monsters to be punished after death, so we invent hell for them. We want ourselves and our loved ones to have eternal reward, so we invented god and heaven.

However, wishing doesn't make it so, and it is a much higher virtue to use nature-given reason to ascertain the truth. Being in touch with reality is a much better reward than the fictional deception of heaven.

Seen this way, religious faith, because it deceives us, is a vice, not a virtue. To allow one's self to be seduced from the path of reason by easy answers is a weakness, and those who pray on human weakness often realize exactly what they are doing. To the extent that they deceive us (lead us from reason, and therefore do us harm), religious evangelizers are evil.
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rhymer
post Nov 09, 2005, 02:37 PM
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I have to agree with you Rick, but what are people who are unable to determine reality to do?
They have no option but to believe something!

This doesn't justify the actions of those who seek power and control over people, but to which 'body' can 'non-understanders' safely turn?

Who can they trust?

To them, we are just one-offs with our own ideas, which is in fact true!

I was brought up as a Christian and am grateful for it - it did me no harm, except that I had to just accept 'rogues who dumped on me'!

There came a time when I couldn't get sensible answers to my questions, and that was when I found a life without a God.
It gives one tremendous responsibilities when you have no God to blame for things; no-one to ask for forgiveness, no-one to provide comfort etc.
Even so, I still think my beliefs are more realistic than in a God.
Nonetheless, for the reasons I give above, I don't try to change someones beliefs unless they effectively ask me to. I know that belief in falsity is not ideal, but having nothing to be able to believe in is existence threatening for some folks.
And at the end of the day we are each entitled to choose in what we will believe. (Indoctrination apart).

Do you think I should be more pro-active, or does my reasoning seem sensible?
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