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> The cybernetic theory of ego-transcendence
max_freakout
post Aug 23, 2011, 08:53 AM
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Is anyone here familiar with Michael Hoffman's ego death theory (aka cybernetic theory of ego transcendence)??

the theory suggests that the core essence of religious psychological transformation, is the discovery of the principle of timeless determinism (fixed-future, inevitability) in the intense dissociative (psyche-delic) state of consciousness. The discovery initially de-stabilises the functioning of the personal ego (the Cartesian thought-agent), then subsequently, stability is re-stabilised at a higher level of understanding, thus a person will claim something like "i had an acid trip which permanently changed the way i think"

It is a profound and 'paradigm shattering' theory, and well in line with the subject matter of this forum, the whole theory can be read online at egodeath DOT com
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Joesus
post Aug 23, 2011, 03:53 PM
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You're describing an altered state of mind having an impact on thought, like an NDE. This is not a transcendence in consciousness but rather a temporary experience with a memory. A memory of an illusion is still an illusion.

i.e. The ego death theory is, specifically, the Cybernetic Theory of Ego Transcendence, and it incorporates the entheogen theory of religion.

Their theory postulates God as being the result of repetitive use of psychedelics, rather than the human instrument as it was created without chemical drivers and stimulants.

Not familiar with Michael Hoffman, but if he assumes authorship for the theory, I am familiar with some of the trails that have spawned from the idea. I tend to think that common sense is usually vacant from religion and any theories that come from a lack of permanent experience in God.
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max_freakout
post Aug 24, 2011, 04:38 AM
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"You're describing an altered state of mind having an impact on thought, like an NDE."

yes, a good analogy is like living in a black-and-white environment all of your life, then suddenly seeing colour for the first time, even if the colour is subsequently taken away (return to the grey), this experience would permanently change your mind, because it teaches you that colours exist.

Psychedelic tripping (= metacognition) is a higher/transcendent mode of mental processing than ordinary cognition, which can permanently transform the mind by revealing the existence of the higher dimensions


"This is not a transcendence in consciousness but rather a temporary experience with a memory."

a memory and also, with more drugs, the ability to access the psychedelic altered state (transcendent cognitive dynamics) whenever one wants to.

it is 'transcendence' in the same way that the person seeing colour for the first time is 'transcending' (going beyond) the black-and-white experience

"A memory of an illusion is still an illusion."

Psychedelic tripping doesnt involve seeing illusions/hallucinations, rather, it involves seeing that the ordinary mode of cognition (characterised as, an ego in a physical world, interacting with physical objects and other egos) is essentially illusory/dreamlike, in a psychedelic trip it is possible to wake up from the dream of ordinary reality


"Their theory postulates God as being the result of repetitive use of psychedelics"

using psychedelics causes an experience of temporary cognitive dissociation, which is commonly experienced as an awesome/profound/intense/mindblowing/life-transforming 'encounter with God'

"rather than the human instrument as it was created without chemical drivers and stimulants."

psychedelic drugs are the necessary tools for initiating the psychedelic (dissociated) state of cognition, the human body metabolises psychedelic drugs just as it metabolises food, water and air. Psychedelic drugs are required to trip, just as air is required to breathe


"I tend to think that common sense is usually vacant from religion and any theories that come from a lack of permanent experience in God."


The crucial point is that any religion can be interpreted in TWO ways, either literally, or metaphorically. The whole problem with the modern interpretation of religion, is that it is purely literal, ie Jesus Christ is literally a historical person who lived 2000 years ago

The enlightened psychedelic mind adopts the metaphorical understanding of interpretation, according to which all religious symbolism is seen as pointing allegorically towards psychedelic phenomenology, so Jesus Christ is now seen as a reference to psychedelic mental transformation
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Joesus
post Aug 24, 2011, 08:50 AM
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QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

QUOTE
"You're describing an altered state of mind having an impact on thought, like an NDE."


yes, a good analogy is like living in a black-and-white environment all of your life, then suddenly seeing colour for the first time, even if the colour is subsequently taken away (return to the grey), this experience would permanently change your mind, because it teaches you that colours exist.


Not necessarily. Having the experience adds to the general collection of experiences and memories but it doesn't necessarily make a permanent change in focus or identity with the world. Many have had what Maslow called a peak experience, but the mind then settles back into habitual programs without taking a direction where one develops the mind at a higher cognitive function.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

Psychedelic tripping (= metacognition) is a higher/transcendent mode of mental processing than ordinary cognition, which can permanently transform the mind by revealing the existence of the higher dimensions

It is not a higher or transcendant mode of functioning. That would be tantamount to something permanent. What you are suggesting is similar to adding a faster processor to a computer and then removing it and having the computer take what it has without having the permanent upgrade and then upgrading itself because of the experience it had with the faster processor.
Forced upgrades using chemicals actually leaves a scar in the psyche as it begins to accept the idea that it cannot achieve something which is normal to the nervous system without the aid of the drug or chemical stimulant. Using chemicals distances one natural ability to expand consciousness thru the belief in dependency and stimulates the idea of difficulty in higher cognitive abilities.

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

QUOTE
"This is not a transcendence in consciousness but rather a temporary experience with a memory."


a memory and also, with more drugs, the ability to access the psychedelic altered state (transcendent cognitive dynamics) whenever one wants to.

it is 'transcendence' in the same way that the person seeing colour for the first time is 'transcending' (going beyond) the black-and-white experience


I tend to look at transcendence as permanent, rather than fleeting glimpses that aren't repeatable. With psychedelics and entheogens no two experiences are the same. You can have experiences but they are not linked to the will of the person taking the drugs in the same way as expanded consciousness functions at a permanent level of transcendence. Taking the drugs you know you are going to have an altered state of mind kind of experience but you do not know what you are going to get. Some door opens and you get a glimpse of something you have no familiarity with, other than the idea of taking a trip based on past memories of having taken the trip.
In the states of permanently expanded states of consciousness you know where you are at all times and it is because you have familiarized yourself with the underlying nature of reality.
With permanently expanded states of consciousness the foundation you build on never changes no matter what you put onto it. With entheogens, the mind is removed from the reality of waking state illusions and then returned to a shaky foundation that has no permanence.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

QUOTE
"A memory of an illusion is still an illusion."


Psychedelic tripping doesnt involve seeing illusions/hallucinations, rather, it involves seeing that the ordinary mode of cognition (characterised as, an ego in a physical world, interacting with physical objects and other egos) is essentially illusory/dreamlike, in a psychedelic trip it is possible to wake up from the dream of ordinary reality

It does involve seeing illusion and hallucinations. It may in the process open the mind to the idea that the world in normal waking state reality is dreamlike or illusory, but you have with drugs, traded one dream for another. This does nothing to establish a lasting relationship with the Self outside of either state of awareness whether in the waking state or in the altered state. This is not transcendence but rather an experience one labels as transcendence based on the idea and reality of what transcendence is without having had the permanent experience.

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

QUOTE
"Their theory postulates God as being the result of repetitive use of psychedelics"


using psychedelics causes an experience of temporary cognitive dissociation, which is commonly experienced as an awesome/profound/intense/mindblowing/life-transforming 'encounter with God'

So what is your point? Religion is based on the ideas of what God would feel and look like when it is not a normal part of ones reality. Any idiot can walk into a church and get caught up in the dramatics of speaking in tongues and faith healing and claim to have experienced God. But the nature of reality should be that God (if it is beyond definition) may lend itself to being present within an experience but then no experience could contain it. Otherwise someone would have claimed and patented God a long time ago. Then if God is present in every experience one would find that awesomeness in the present experience without any stimulant or mind altering drug. People have new experiences and then as they normalize to the experience it becomes less god like and so one tries to push themselves further to grasp more God and god like experiences.
Timothy Leary spent the greater part of his adult life chasing that fantasy.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

QUOTE
"rather than the human instrument as it was created without chemical drivers and stimulants."


psychedelic drugs are the necessary tools for initiating the psychedelic (dissociated) state of cognition, the human body metabolises psychedelic drugs just as it metabolises food, water and air. Psychedelic drugs are required to trip, just as air is required to breathe

No the body does not metabolize psychedelic drugs in the same way it metabolizes food and water. Drugs cause stress to the nervous system and distance one from their natural cognitive abilities which for the most part are ignored. Children are taught by their parents to curb imagination and to build a pattern of belief following in the footsteps of their parents. Food and water are absorbed by the nervous system and help to facilitate the natural function of the body.
People assume their body and mind is deficient and that it needs something to jump start it into something they have no real expertise in. You are speaking of theories.
There are thousands of years worth of practical experience within the teachings of expanded consciousness and the experience of God.

"Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
- Gospel of Thomas

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

QUOTE
"I tend to think that common sense is usually vacant from religion and any theories that come from a lack of permanent experience in God."



The crucial point is that any religion can be interpreted in TWO ways, either literally, or metaphorically. The whole problem with the modern interpretation of religion, is that it is purely literal, ie Jesus Christ is literally a historical person who lived 2000 years ago

The enlightened psychedelic mind adopts the metaphorical understanding of interpretation, according to which all religious symbolism is seen as pointing allegorically towards psychedelic phenomenology, so Jesus Christ is now seen as a reference to psychedelic mental transformation

In the realm of spiritual sciences Jesus represents the human who has transcended reality without any outside placebos. Using the human instrument to its fullest potential to permanently establish the mind in the awareness of God. This has been described as the mundane rather than the fantastic.

Someone who knows God has a deeper appreciation for it in all experiences and does not get caught up in the sensory addictions to the fantastic.
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max_freakout
post Aug 25, 2011, 04:04 AM
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QUOTE
a good analogy is like living in a black-and-white environment all of your life, then suddenly seeing colour for the first time, even if the colour is subsequently taken away (return to the grey), this experience would permanently change your mind, because it teaches you that colours exist.

Not necessarily. Having the experience adds to the general collection of experiences and memories but it doesn't necessarily make a permanent change in focus or identity with the world. Many have had what Maslow called a peak experience, but the mind then settles back into habitual programs without taking a direction where one develops the mind at a higher cognitive function.


Many people do report life-changing (ie mentally transformative) experiences on psychedelic drugs, ego death theory purports to model and explain the transformation in thinking which occurs during such experiences. Furthermore, it is now scientifically established (check the recent psilocybin study at Johns Hopkins) that psychedelic drugs trigger fullblown intense 'mystical' type experiences. Ego death theory follows from, and elaborates on these kinds of observations. Psychedelic drugs automatically trigger major temporary transformations in a person's state of consciousness (a 'psychedelic trip'), which often result in permanent changes in a person's thinking which persist even after the ordinary, default state of consciousness is resumed after the drugs wear off. That transformation is what Hoffman refers to as 'ego transcendence', because it involves ceasing to fully identify oneself with ego (the Cartesian thought-agent)


QUOTE

It is not a higher or transcendant mode of functioning. That would be tantamount to something permanent.



The period of transcendent cognition is not permanent, because the drugs always eventually wear off, so that the ordinary mode of cognition is resumed. After repeated exposure to temporary states of psychedelic altered consciousness, the mind can permanently switch to a new overall metaphysical worldmodel (enlightenment/ego-transcendence)


QUOTE

What you are suggesting is similar to adding a faster processor to a computer and then removing it and having the computer take what it has without having the permanent upgrade and then upgrading itself because of the experience it had with the faster processor.


there is first a temporary change in state of consciousness, this results in a permanent 'upgrade' to a new mental model

A permanent change on one's state of consciousness (ie permanent adoption of the transcendent perspective, a permanent trip), is not only impossible to achieve, but also would be highly detrimental


QUOTE

It does involve seeing illusion and hallucinations. It may in the process open the mind to the idea that the world in normal waking state reality is dreamlike or illusory, but you have with drugs, traded one dream for another.


When you trip, you do not typically enter into another world, rather you see this world (the physical world) in a new way, so you arent in a new dream, youre on the same old dream, now seeing it for what it really is (instead of the deluded perception that it is all real)

QUOTE

In the realm of spiritual sciences Jesus represents the human who has transcended reality without any outside placebos.


Jesus is depicted eating the *holy food* at the last supper, then immediately afterwards he experiences his own death and transcendent ressurection. To the enlightened mind, the crucifixion story is allegory for ingesting entheogens then experiencing mystical death and rebirth
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Joesus
post Aug 25, 2011, 07:44 AM
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QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 25, 2011, 12:04 PM) *


Many people do report life-changing (ie mentally transformative) experiences on psychedelic drugs, ego death theory purports to model and explain the transformation in thinking which occurs during such experiences. Furthermore, it is now scientifically established (check the recent psilocybin study at Johns Hopkins) that psychedelic drugs trigger fullblown intense 'mystical' type experiences.


Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences
having substantial and sustained personal
meaning and spiritual significance
R. R. Griffiths &W. A. Richards & U. McCann & R. Jesse

Conclusions When administered under supportive conditions,
psilocybin occasioned experiences similar to spontaneously
occurring mystical experiences. The ability to
occasion such experiences prospectively will allow rigorous
scientific investigations of their causes and consequences.



How does Johns Hopkins University determine what mystical is, are they using the definitions of those spiritualists who are taking the drugs? Is it similar to how Science views mysticism and God? Many people report life changing experiences without drugs. How does John Hopkins determine which claim is more real and life changing? Those with and those without drugs... Hmm that would be an interesting debate and study.

I like the conclusion where it says:
under supportive conditions,
psilocybin occasioned experiences similar to spontaneously
occurring mystical experiences.


The word occasioned referenced with spontaneous experiences without Pscilocybin inducement reveals the possibility that the occurrance may or may not even be due to the psilocybin, but possibly attributed to the same conditions as those that induce the experience without the drug, meaning that the psilocybin was just a placebo or it had nothing to do with anything other than someone making a determination that it was the cause of the effect, simply because of the lack of experience and understanding of an experience.
Hmmm. What could THAT be???

Like I said, Any idiot can wander into a holy rollers reunion with dancing, music and speaking in tongues and walk away with a reason for their spiritual experience.

Seek and ye shall find, but then what it is you seek and whether what you find it is still relative to the subjective state of mind. Objectivity is not omniscience.

Rationale: Although psilocybin has been used for centuries
for religious purposes, little is known scientifically about its
acute and persisting effects.

Always the exploration of new territory leads to innocuous first conclusions

Materials and methods: The participants were hallucinogennaïve
adults reporting regular participation in religious or
spiritual activities.


Defining religious or spiritual is something in and of itself. We are going to have to be inclusive of everything from snake charmers to Hare Krishna's..everything in between, past present and future. Or we can go with the underlying nature of what Scripture actually points to when describing True religion and Spirituality and how that might fit into all of the above or none of it at all.


QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 25, 2011, 12:04 PM) *

Ego death theory follows from, and elaborates on these kinds of observations. Psychedelic drugs automatically trigger major temporary transformations in a person's state of consciousness (a 'psychedelic trip'), which often result in permanent changes in a person's thinking which persist even after the ordinary, default state of consciousness is resumed after the drugs wear off. That transformation is what Hoffman refers to as 'ego transcendence', because it involves ceasing to fully identify oneself with ego (the Cartesian thought-agent)

Any intellectual stimulation changes the way a person thinks and believes, THAT is as you describe it, a permanent change and it does not involve entheogens or psychedelics. What is a major temporary change and is there one that is more major than another and do you believe only major epiphanies come from drugs?
Where do you suppose the idea of ego death comes from? I noticed in the last paragraph you reference an idea where Jesus partakes in the Holy Food which you and others may believe to be entheogens. That is an interesting idea.
Seems every generation wishes to paste their ideas of what scripture refers to without actually having studied scripture. It becomes a convenience to take something out of biblical references, and to make a determination as to the nature of what is being said, and to make it fit within the boundaries of ones own beliefs.
I've tried the psychedelic approach, and it does not give you a stable cognitive reference point. The mind wanders in the haze of altered mental realities where the mind still draws from the boundaries of the ego. It will paste idealized references onto the new experiences because it knows nothing else. It would be similar to a cave man seeing a television for the first time and seeing it as evil and the devil. Where ever the subjective mindset begins with its boundaries and definitions, it then pastes those identities upon every new experience.
People have good trips and bad trips but always the trip begins with how they see reality in the first place. If they believe in God and their subconscious filters God into a particular idea and experience the drug releases the buried thought and bingo, now we have fulfilled the underlying belief and released it into experience.

If you believe in the devil and take drugs and then have a bad trip, it could just as easily follow that one would make claims to the idea that entheogens and psychedelics are responsible for the devil and are satanic.

You can be a cave man or an existential woo woo who takes psychedelics. If one has not taken the awareness beyond all preconceptions then you get what you imagine.

You may assume that your ideas are superior to the caveman, but given another 100 years, there will be another mindset within the societal mores of humanity, and just like every generation who assumes enlightenment is and can be understood before it happens, there will be another label pasted upon it. Spiritual enlightenment, intellectual enlightenment...It's relative to where ones point of reference is.

You remind me of a recent conversation I had with a Jehovah's witness on this board. He was pretty adamant about what he was talking about when it came to scripture and the relationship one has with God and how to get there. Everyone has an opinion don't they.

Now you are a new age chemical religionist. The holy church of psychedelic transcendence rolleyes.gif

By the way. How do you deal with a bad trip in relationship to your theory?
I know plenty of those who have taken psychedelics and had major bad experiences, even had a couple myself. Do your theories follow similar ideas that the church has when it makes claims to the fact that only special individuals have received the gift of holy communion with spirit and experience God when taking drugs?



QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 25, 2011, 12:04 PM) *

The period of transcendent cognition is not permanent, because the drugs always eventually wear off, so that the ordinary mode of cognition is resumed. After repeated exposure to temporary states of psychedelic altered consciousness, the mind can permanently switch to a new overall metaphysical worldmodel (enlightenment/ego-transcendence)

There's an interesting thought. What would be the focus of the person making the permanent switch? The accumulated ideas of the imagination one has with the past experiences? Or something that was and is permanent within all experiences before the drugs were taken?
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 25, 2011, 12:04 PM) *

there is first a temporary change in state of consciousness, this results in a permanent 'upgrade' to a new mental model

A permanent change on one's state of consciousness (ie permanent adoption of the transcendent perspective, a permanent trip), is not only impossible to achieve, but also would be highly detrimental

Hence an illusion is an illusion is an illusion. Temporary experiences of something that is randomly accepted as higher cognition does not build you a foundation that is real, but imagined.


QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 25, 2011, 12:04 PM) *

When you trip, you do not typically enter into another world, rather you see this world (the physical world) in a new way, so you arent in a new dream, youre on the same old dream, now seeing it for what it really is (instead of the deluded perception that it is all real)

You're still seeing the dream, and you haven't replaced it with what is real. Instead you get the impression that it isn't real and you still have no clue as to what IS real. So you dream of what reality is...and the dream goes on.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 25, 2011, 12:04 PM) *

Jesus is depicted eating the *holy food* at the last supper, then immediately afterwards he experiences his own death and transcendent ressurection. To the enlightened mind, the crucifixion story is allegory for ingesting entheogens then experiencing mystical death and rebirth

You are speaking from the experience of the enlightened mind? Do you know of others? Has Johns Hopkins made a study of the enlightened mind?
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max_freakout
post Aug 26, 2011, 09:24 AM
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QUOTE
How does John Hopkins University determine what mystical is?


they used Hood's Mysticism Scale, - a questionnaire which is designed to identify mystical phenomena (such as feelings of unity, absorbtion, voidness, transcendence etc)

QUOTE

Many people report life changing experiences without drugs. How does John Hopkins determine which claim is more real and life changing? Those with and those without drugs... Hmm that would be an interesting debate and study.


The crucial point is that only drugs provide immediate, reliable, repeatable ('on tap') access to intense mystical aletered states of consciousness. Non drug-induced mystical experiences are rare, fleeting and uncontrollable


QUOTE
Like I said, Any idiot can wander into a holy rollers reunion with dancing, music and speaking in tongues and walk away with a reason for their spiritual experience.


But dancing, speaking in tongues etc do not typically trigger intense mindblowing psychedelic experiences, whereas by contrast, when taking drugs these kinds of experiences are guaranteed

QUOTE

Seek and ye shall find, but then what it is you seek and whether what you find it is still relative to the subjective state of mind.


if your 'seeking' leads you to discover entheogens, you will find out about psychedelic tripping, and your life may well be transformed as a result, ego death theory aims to model, describe and explain the psychedelic transformation

QUOTE

Defining religious or spiritual is something in and of itself. We are going to have to be inclusive of everything from snake charmers to Hare Krishna's..everything in between, past present and future. Or we can go with the underlying nature of what Scripture actually points to when describing True religion and Spirituality and how that might fit into all of the above or none of it at all.


ALL religious scriptures are essentially big collections of stories which allegorically describe psychedelic (religious/mystical) experiencing and ego death (enlightenment/worldmodel transformation). Thus, the symbols of Buddha's enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, Arjuna's encounter with Krishna, Mohammed's revelation, Jesus' crucifixion and Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac etc etc are all equivalent references to altered state cognitive phenomenology.

If you take LSD, you will 'walk on water' like Jesus, and 'see walls of water' like Moses, because those stories are primarily intended as general purpose descriptions of entheogenic experiencing.


QUOTE

Any intellectual stimulation changes the way a person thinks and believes, THAT is as you describe it, a permanent change and it does not involve entheogens or psychedelics. What is a major temporary change and is there one that is more major than another and do you believe only major epiphanies come from drugs?



what psychedelic drugs do, is open up immediate, repeatable, controllable access to temporary states of psychedelic altered consciousness, repeated exposure to that state of consciousness has a tendency to trigger a specific permanent, systemic shift of the mental worldmodel (a Kuhnian paradigm shift), because it presents information which is fundamentally contradictory to the old worldmodel. That is why it is not uncommon to hear people say something like "i took LSd and it permanently changed the way i think", the old way of thinking has to be sacrificed, to allow for the new mode of thinking to take over, this transformation in thinking is what is known as 'ego death/transcendence'


QUOTE
Where do you suppose the idea of ego death comes from?


It comes from the fact that there is a tendency to proclaim 'i have died' to oneself, in the middle of a psychedelic trip


QUOTE

I noticed in the last paragraph you reference an idea where Jesus partakes in the Holy Food which you and others may believe to be entheogens.


if we suppose that 'holy food' means 'food which, when ingested, causes profound and life-changing religious revelations, including mystical death and rebirth', then entheogens are the only meaningful referent of the 'food which Jesus ate immediately prior to his death and ressurection'.


QUOTE
By the way. How do you deal with a bad trip.


you don't 'deal with a bad trip', it's the other way round a bad trip deals with you


QUOTE
I know plenty of those who have taken psychedelics and had major bad experiences.


the 'bad' experiences (ie the ones which elicit fear/panic/struggle etc) are typically the most transformative, ego has to be challenged and overwhelmed in order to be transcended


QUOTE
Do your theories follow similar ideas that the church has when it makes claims to the fact that only special individuals have received the gift of holy communion with spirit when taking drugs?



the modern church is the Satanic church of the antidrug, according to them, only 'special' people (saints and Jesus) get to have encounters with God, whereas according to the ego death theory, encountering God is what happens when you trip hard

QUOTE

There's an interesting thought. What would be the focus of the person making the permanent switch? The accumulated ideas of the imagination one has with the past experiences? Or something that was and is permanent within all experiences before the drugs were taken?


the 'switch' of mental model concerns core metaphysical concepts such as self, time and world, the trip experience presents new information to the mind which transforms its basic assumptions about these concepts.
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Joesus
post Aug 26, 2011, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE
How does John Hopkins University determine what mystical is?


they used Hood's Mysticism Scale, - a questionnaire which is designed to identify mystical phenomena (such as feelings of unity, absorbtion, voidness, transcendence etc)


Caird's (1988) factor-analytic study of Hood's (1975) M-scale was replicated using adult subjects (N = 87) rather than college students. Subjects included contemplative mystics, psychotics with religious preoccupations, and other adults. As in Caird's (1988) findings, our study found two factors similar to Hood's two-component solution, reflecting Unitary and Interpretive categories of mystical experience. A three-factor solution splits the Interpretive category into Noetic/Ineffability and Religious types of interpretations. The factors in both solutions are intercorrelated. This study provides additional evidence for the stability of factorial structures across diverse samples and limited evidence for validity.
Mysticism Scale

Construct/ what is being measured

The Mysticism Scale was developed to gauge one’s experiences with the outside world or “nothingness.” The scale did not include any references to religious language.

Scale was broken into eight four-item grouping. These groupings measured:

interpretations of mystical experience in terms of positive affect
religious holiness
noetic quality. (of or relating to the mind, esp to its rational and intellectual faculties)

They also examined phenomenology of mystical experience by looking at one’s extrovertive state and introvertive states. Finally, the notion of the ineffability of mystical experiences was examined.

Sample questions:

“I have had an experience which was both timeless and spaceless”

“I have never had an experience which was incapable of being expressed in words”


If you were to match Woods Scale to say the 20,000 year old vedic library, what conclusions would you come to when deciding what a mystical experience of God would be?
Would it be similar to reading all about surgery, having never performed it yet assuming knowledge of it and stating in all determination that you know what it is?
Would you expect in your determination that all you need is in what you have determined and then with confidence begin to operate without doubt and hesitation to achieve success?
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE

Many people report life changing experiences without drugs. How does John Hopkins determine which claim is more real and life changing? Those with and those without drugs... Hmm that would be an interesting debate and study.


The crucial point is that only drugs provide immediate, reliable, repeatable ('on tap') access to intense mystical aletered states of consciousness. Non drug-induced mystical experiences are rare, fleeting and uncontrollable


I would state quite the opposite. You are assuming without drugs that all experiences of God are random and uncontrollable. You obviously know nothing of spiritual science or its history, nor do you have a relationship with those who have an ongoing experience of God without the use of chemicals that alter the mind temporarily.
To say that using psychedelics produce repeatable experiences of God would be a stretch. I would agree that the use of drugs repeatedly produces an experience, but never the same experience twice. You can call them mind blowing but that means nothing.
You can jump out of an airplane and have a guaranteed mind blowing experience if you have never done so before.
Having sex for the first time can create a mind blowing experience.

You cannot guarantee that a psychedelic trip is going to be the same for anyone. It will be different for each individual, and there is no reality in predicting it will be spiritual, mystical or even pleasant.

You could probably guarantee that when taking any drug in mass amounts you could overload the human nervous system and make a claim to the idea that the experience would be mind blowing, and maybe even mystical, but then you aren't really saying anything.

Ya know..about 2500 years ago their were churches that sold God experiences. The priests pimped out their nuns for sex because it was believed the ecstasy of sexual passion was the same thing as union with God. When you became one in the passion of love making with your partner, achieving what Abraham Maslow describes as a peak experience it was at the time assumed to be a pathway to Unity and divine experience.

People are still looking for a cheap way into what the spiritual masters described as a way of being.
Superstition even in this age of technology is still superstition.
Religion even thru drugs and technology is still an idea based on beliefs that are constantly changing and wild assumptions by a collective of like minded individuals that will not necessarily become the accepted reality of the whole.

There is something much more real than those ideas which separate man thru beliefs and their mechanical approaches to overstimulating the body and mind into an altered state.
Your methods are not new, nor will their results be any greater or worse than those who have tried to manipulate their minds in similar ways.

Become a whirling Dervish, an aesthetic who stands on one leg for days on end, fast for weeks, wear a hair shirt and sit in front of a fire in the noon day sun of summer, bake in a sweat lodge and take/eat peyote buttons...etc.etc. All of these methods are part of history but regardless of whether the individual believes his life has changed, all of them seek to reach further because what they are doing is not enough. It will never be enough because none of these methods will ever ultimately satisfy the mind and body which inherently knows there is more to life and God than creating mind blowing experiences.. In fact any drug user knows as the body becomes acclimated to the drug you would have to continue to increase the dosage in order to create an impact to the already hammered nervous system. Ultimately you will hammer it to death.


QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE
Like I said, Any idiot can wander into a holy rollers reunion with dancing, music and speaking in tongues and walk away with a reason for their spiritual experience.


But dancing, speaking in tongues etc do not typically trigger intense mindblowing psychedelic experiences, whereas by contrast, when taking drugs these kinds of experiences are guaranteed

By your determination of what is mind blowing, and has meaning, you disqualify another's experience to make yours more real, using your defining ideology of ego and belief that is generated by ego. Psychedelic experience = mystical..
Now you have entered the realm of my church is better and more real than the other church.

Congratulations. You are now at the level of the door banging bible thumper who claims his ideology is most real and sanctioned by the holy of holies.
Your science only determines that thru belief, one can label an experience as mind blowing and mystical.

This allows you to make a comparison to what one might determine as an experience of God based on what someone else has said about their belief.

However if you have ever studied scripture, it doesn't match anything that is written about what spirituality entails within the experience of experiences. All beliefs come from the same place and end up where they came from.
This is also something religion fails to do.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE

Seek and ye shall find, but then what it is you seek and whether what you find it is still relative to the subjective state of mind.


if your 'seeking' leads you to discover entheogens, you will find out about psychedelic tripping, and your life may well be transformed as a result, ego death theory aims to model, describe and explain the psychedelic transformation
I would agree it would give you an experience of tripping, and I would agree it would change your awareness of what it is to trip when you hadn't before. Whether it makes you smarter or actually expands your consciousness above and beyond the ego... well..., from my own experience I would say absolutely not.
Even you admit that, when you say that life MAY be transformed... Always the objective reality of experience is based on the subjective platform or knowledge and the state of consciousness one operates at. Drugs can alter a state temporarily but altering something does not establish a new state of consciousness, especially when one comes back to the mind that is still operating at a cognitive level that is ego bound albeit shaken but not necessarily stirred into the awareness of the underlying secrets of how reality is created.

What you surmise would be different than the ego death described in the teachings of Advaita Vedanta, or the original teachings of Jesus or Buddha.

I won't go into what the bible says, since it barely represents anything close to what the disciples actually learned from their teacher about mysticism and God.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE

Defining religious or spiritual is something in and of itself. We are going to have to be inclusive of everything from snake charmers to Hare Krishna's..everything in between, past present and future. Or we can go with the underlying nature of what Scripture actually points to when describing True religion and Spirituality and how that might fit into all of the above or none of it at all.


ALL religious scriptures are essentially big collections of stories which allegorically describe psychedelic (religious/mystical) experiencing and ego death (enlightenment/worldmodel transformation). Thus, the symbols of Buddha's enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, Arjuna's encounter with Krishna, Mohammed's revelation, Jesus' crucifixion and Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac etc etc are all equivalent references to altered state cognitive phenomenology.

You conveniently added psychedelic to the mix. There is no reference to psychedelic consumption by Jesus or Buddha in scripture. That is an assumption. And the description is not regarding an altered state in scripture but an expanded state. One that is permanent and achieved by a commitment to a focus on something much more mundane than the fantastic experience.
Abrahams sacrifice was symbolic of attachment to the temporary physical world, and how that attachment binds the mind to a lesser experience of reality. That attachment is belief.
Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection testimony to the spirit that lives eternally within. His life an example of one who has brought that forward into the physical life consciously and permanently, and his death the example of that living spirit continuing regardless of the body which is worn like a set of clothes.
Buddha's awakening under the Bhodi tree was not an allegory. It was a description of an event. When revelation thru inner contemplation removed the door between the physical and the non-physical Self permanently, and it had nothing to do with any kind of drug or mind altering substance.

Krishna's conversations with Arjuna represent the struggle between the ego and spirit, and the intuitive voice that guides one thru the controversy if one is patient enough to listen, and to make certain choices to abandon illusions for reality.

Those scriptures have nothing to do with psychedelic influence but I suppose since they include greater cognitive ability and exalted experiences one could easily imagine that they are all about taking mind altering drugs to achieve a temporary experience and create new beliefs and religions to worship those beliefs.
It would be kind of a sad ideal to dedicate ones self to something that is not necessarily a natural state of being but something that you believe is outside of normal cognitive functioning, and that you can only get glimpses of like going to the movies to temporarily forget the world you live in.

It would kind of lead the rational mind into thinking that really all you want out of life is to escape it.

From the psychological point of view this would make the spiritualist, religionist, psychedelic drug user...dysfunctional.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

If you take LSD, you will 'walk on water' like Jesus, and 'see walls of water' like Moses, because those stories are primarily intended as general purpose descriptions of entheogenic experiencing.

No. You may see and imagine things, but you won't be walking on water.

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE

Any intellectual stimulation changes the way a person thinks and believes, THAT is as you describe it, a permanent change and it does not involve entheogens or psychedelics. What is a major temporary change and is there one that is more major than another and do you believe only major epiphanies come from drugs?



what psychedelic drugs do, is open up immediate, repeatable, controllable access to temporary states of psychedelic altered consciousness, repeated exposure to that state of consciousness has a tendency to trigger a specific permanent, systemic shift of the mental worldmodel (a Kuhnian paradigm shift), because it presents information which is fundamentally contradictory to the old worldmodel. That is why it is not uncommon to hear people say something like "i took LSd and it permanently changed the way i think", the old way of thinking has to be sacrificed, to allow for the new mode of thinking to take over, this transformation in thinking is what is known as 'ego death/transcendence'

What you are describing is that if you live in a box, you can rearrange the box and have a different experience of the box and what is in it. This is adding a new experience shifting the vision of what is in the box but that will change again and again and again for as long as you have choice and consciousness. You won't need any drugs to do this, it will happen automatically.
It (tripping) does not lead the mind out of the box, unless you assume the trip to be a step in ones path of life and the step that makes the difference. In reality every step has function and effect.
Ego is still very much in love with itself and its processes, and will die with them when the body dies only to be reborn and do it all over again if it doesn't become a tad smarter than to continue to create illusions about itself, idolizing processes and experiences as the ultimate reality.

Coming to conclusions that there is more to reality than what meets the eye in experience is not a state of consciousness outside of waking dreaming and sleeping.
Science at least makes a commitment to the study of reality with the knowledge that there is always more, but it doesn't call its process religious even tho it may be, and scientists don't insist there is only one method such as taking drugs to gain knowledge or create a discipline to the approach to knowledge and experience.

Outside of the fields of specialization Science as a whole is never convinced there is only one way of thinking or that there is nothing new to discover and explore. Religion on the other hand not unlike you and your beliefs, tend to dwell on one single idea about how to approach the unknown, with a strenuous grip on an idea of what that unknown should and will be IF one could grasp onto it.

I can't fault you for your beliefs, I can state however that they are no different than any other belief where one stands at the edge of the box wondering what is outside of it and what creates and maintains the box.

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE
Where do you suppose the idea of ego death comes from?


It comes from the fact that there is a tendency to proclaim 'i have died' to oneself, in the middle of a psychedelic trip

Ah.. now we are getting somewhere. For a minute I actually thought you invested yourself in the study of the history of what ego death referred to. But I see your history is contained within a few decades of egoic determination rallied around the mind altering psychedelic trip as your point of reference.

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE

I noticed in the last paragraph you reference an idea where Jesus partakes in the Holy Food which you and others may believe to be entheogens.


if we suppose that 'holy food' means 'food which, when ingested, causes profound and life-changing religious revelations, including mystical death and rebirth', then entheogens are the only meaningful referent of the 'food which Jesus ate immediately prior to his death and ressurection'.

Yes I suppose if you supposed such an idea, you might come to that conclusion. You didn't think of spirit as food I suppose.
You assume the analogy and the allegory for everything else, but in this case food is food and it is entheogens.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE
By the way. How do you deal with a bad trip.


you don't 'deal with a bad trip', it's the other way round a bad trip deals with you.

Similar to how the ego deludes one into making claims of being God in a God like experience of being without the ego. One assumes the power of the drug or the ego is greater than will.

How would you define the ego exactly, and how would you live without it?

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE
I know plenty of those who have taken psychedelics and had major bad experiences.


the 'bad' experiences (ie the ones which elicit fear/panic/struggle etc) are typically the most transformative, ego has to be challenged and overwhelmed in order to be transcended

And this overwhelming takes place in the psychedelic induced altered state or in the cognitive state where mental faculties are running naturally?

Again you are creating a similarity to a life changing event such as an NDE or even any other event which shocks the complacency of thought that one would create in their life. You just want to control the shock event rather than have it come as it would when you don't expect it. I can understand that. One fears being out of control and what better way to deal with fear than to assume the belief that you can control your life?

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE
Do your theories follow similar ideas that the church has when it makes claims to the fact that only special individuals have received the gift of holy communion with spirit when taking drugs?



the modern church is the Satanic church of the antidrug, according to them, only 'special' people (saints and Jesus) get to have encounters with God, whereas according to the ego death theory, encountering God is what happens when you trip hard


This gets more entertaining by the moment... I give you this. Your reasoning is on par with any fanatical religious determination. More power to you.

I will agree that the church does not encourage equality with the special title "Son of God" but there are more ways to get from one place to another when it comes to creating special effects. In the long run they all have to be surrendered to cause and effect and then one has to take the mind beyond externally stimulated events to experience something other than outward (ego) driven sensory existentialism.

Our individuality gives us a unique perspective that is our own, but there is something that supersedes individual determination of separation and uniqueness. That, is common to every individual and the individuals personal beliefs in reality.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 26, 2011, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE

There's an interesting thought. What would be the focus of the person making the permanent switch? The accumulated ideas of the imagination one has with the past experiences? Or something that was and is permanent within all experiences before the drugs were taken?


the 'switch' of mental model concerns core metaphysical concepts such as self, time and world, the trip experience presents new information to the mind which transforms its basic assumptions about these concepts.

At the level of the box.
There is a saying. You cannot fix a problem at the level in which it is created. This of course may have no meaning for you because you firmly believe after returning from the trip the mind has been permanently altered to different levels of awareness. Unfortunately the past memories do nothing to move the mind into the present moment of the NOW. It still wanders from the past to the future in its idealization of the more perfect reality.

Kinda like coming home from a vacation to some foreign land. Sure your experience has been enhanced by the new sites, and you come home with a lot of pictures. But you will still sit at the dinner table and discuss what is important to you, and that will be according to your personal beliefs. You will still live your life separate from everyone and anyone who will not accept your beliefs as their own, isolating yourself by your beliefs from the world and all that oppose your beliefs. Ego firmly intact.
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max_freakout
post Aug 27, 2011, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE
“You are assuming without drugs that all experiences of God are random and uncontrollable.”


Ingesting entheogens is a technique which provides guaranteed repeatable access to intense mystical states of consciousness, and as such they are the ONLY technique that makes this promise. Take drugs and you will trip, if you don’t take drugs, you wont trip, there is no alternative technique which triggers the same experiences that entheogens do.

I wouldn’t say ‘experience of God’, that kind of description of religious (mystical) experience has an obvious western/monotheistic bias, a Buddhist wouldn’t have an ‘experience of God’, because Buddhists don’t include God in their ontology. Mystical experience is defined by feelings of unity, transcendence etc, not just as 'meeting God'

QUOTE
”To say that using psychedelics produce repeatable experiences of God would be a stretch”


Psychedelic drugs produce repeatable experiences of the intense psychedelic (mind-manifesting) state of consciousness, that much is certain. It is then a further line of enquiry, to say what exactly does psychedelic consciousness consists of, and why it is so strongly associated with profound, life-changing ‘conversion’ experiences.

QUOTE
“I would agree that the use of drugs repeatedly produces an experience, but never the same experience twice.”


You need to distinguish between the two senses of “sameness”, there is numerical sameness, and qualitative sameness
Think of ‘psychedelic’ as a quality which certain experiences possess (specifically, the experiences that people have after they ingest psychedelic plants and chemicals are ‘psychedelic’ experiences). Using drugs repeatedly and reliably causes experiences which are qualitatively unified under the banner of ‘psychedelic’. Every psychedelic drug-induced experience is ‘the same’ in this specific sense, i.e. they all possess this same quality (the quality of being psychedelic, i.e. mind-manifesting)

QUOTE
“You can call them mind blowing but that means nothing”


Specifically, these experiences are mind-manifesting, they reveal the deeper levels of mind that are normally hidden from consciousness

QUOTE
“You can jump out of an airplane and have a guaranteed mind blowing experience if you have never done so before. Having sex for the first time can create a mind blowing experience.”


Neither jumping out of a plane, nor having sex, will cause you to have a psychedelic (mind-manifesting) experience, for that you need to take drugs

QUOTE
”You cannot guarantee that a psychedelic trip is going to be the same for anyone.”


Again you are failing to distinguish between the 2 senses of ‘sameness’, every person’s psychedelic trip is ‘the same’ in the sense that they are all ‘psychedelic’, they all possess this ‘same’ quality. The crucial line of enquiry then, is to determine exactly what this property ‘psychedelic’ consists of and why these experiences are so significant.

QUOTE
“It will be different for each individual, and there is no reality in predicting it will be spiritual, mystical or even pleasant.”


You can predict with 100% certainty that every individual who takes a sufficient dose of psychedelic drugs will have an experience of intense psychedelic altered consciousness.

QUOTE

“I would agree it would give you an experience of tripping, and I would agree it would change your awareness of what it is to trip when you hadn't before. Whether it makes you smarter or actually expands your consciousness above and beyond the ego... well..., from my own experience I would say absolutely not.”


Tripping doesn’t make anyone smarter, what it does do, is to reveal the psyche-delic perspective to the mind


QUOTE
”Drugs can alter a state temporarily but altering something does not establish a new state of consciousness, especially when one comes back to the mind that is still operating at a cognitive level that is ego bound albeit shaken but not necessarily stirred into the awareness of the underlying secrets of how reality is created.”


Drugs automatically transform one’s state of consciousness, temporarily, into the psychedelic altered state, i.e. when you take drugs, you will automatically ‘trip’ for a few hours. Normally, a trip ends, the ordinary state of consciousness is resumed, and any metaphysical insights revealed during the trip are forgotten moreorless completely, but when ‘ego death’ occurs (this is not an ‘automatic’ occurrence, rather this is something that happens to experienced trippers after multiple trip experiences), the mind is permanently transformed to a new way of thinking, so that even though the ordinary state of consciousness resumes, the insights are not forgotten, and one’s entire mental worldmodel is left permanently transformed. That is why it is not uncommon to hear experienced trippers say that they were left permanently changed by their trip experience. Ego death theory purports to describe and explain this transformation when it does happen.

QUOTE
”What you surmise would be different than the ego death described in the teachings of Advaita Vedanta, or the original teachings of Jesus or Buddha.”


Psychedelic ego death and transcendence is a universal, innate hardwired potential of the human mind. All religious systems equivalently provide models for this mental transformation – thus Jesus’ crucifixion, Buddha’s enlightenment, and the discovery of the principle of non-duality (ad-vaita) are all essentially equivalent references to ego death

QUOTE
”I won't go into what the bible says, since it barely represents anything close to what the disciples actually learned from their teacher about mysticism and God”


The stories of Jesus and the disciples are not literal, historical occurences, they do not refer to real people (Jesus never existed as a single historical individual, ‘Jesus’ is a Hebrew word meaning ‘anointed’, it is not a name of a person). Jesus is actually a set of stories which allegorically describe the process of mystical death and rebirth, that is ‘True Religion’.


QUOTE

“Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection testimony to the spirit that lives eternally within. His life an example of one who has brought that forward into the physical life consciously and permanently, and his death the example of that living spirit continuing regardless of the body which is worn like a set of clothes.
Buddha's awakening under the Bhodi tree was not an allegory. It was a description of an event. When revelation thru inner contemplation removed the door between the physical and the non-physical Self permanently, and it had nothing to do with any kind of drug or mind altering substance.”


You seem to think that Buddha and Jesus are real people, and that the stories about them refer to literal historical occurrences. That whole way of understanding religion is a lower, degraded version of what true, esoteric (psychedelic) religion is all about.


QUOTE

”If you take LSD, you will 'walk on water' like Jesus, and 'see walls of water' like Moses, because those stories are primarily intended as general purpose descriptions of entheogenic experiencing.

No. You may see and imagine things, but you won't be walking on water.”


Of course you don’t literally walk on water in an LSD trip, the point is that the whole idea of ‘walking on water’ is an allegorical reference to the standard perceptual effects of LSD, the world takes on a fluid, flowing appearance, in sharp contrast to the ‘solid’ appearance that is a standard feature of the ordinary unaltered state of consciousness
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post Aug 28, 2011, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
“You are assuming without drugs that all experiences of God are random and uncontrollable.”


Ingesting entheogens is a technique which provides guaranteed repeatable access to intense mystical states of consciousness, and as such they are the ONLY technique that makes this promise. Take drugs and you will trip, if you don’t take drugs, you wont trip, there is no alternative technique which triggers the same experiences that entheogens do.


OK let me put it another way. You assume all experiences of unity, oneness, transcendence without psychedelics are random and without control.
Mystical is still a subjective word. One that we disagree upon when you use it as an allegory in the abstract when it comes to Jesus or Buddha.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

I wouldn’t say ‘experience of God’, that kind of description of religious (mystical) experience has an obvious western/monotheistic bias, a Buddhist wouldn’t have an ‘experience of God’, because Buddhists don’t include God in their ontology. Mystical experience is defined by feelings of unity, transcendence etc, not just as 'meeting God'

Using Jesus and Buddha you include all western/monotheistic bias as well as your own projections of belief that their personalities never existed. You can't deny another's truth when your truth is relative. You can try but you cannot take away another's belief just because you think yours is better or more real.
Especially when its not rolleyes.gif
Besides..

The theory you defend and argue for postulates God as being the result of repetitive use of psychedelics and you did make reference to the experience of God in a previous response
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 24, 2011, 12:38 PM) *

using psychedelics causes an experience of temporary cognitive dissociation, which is commonly experienced as an awesome/profound/intense/mindblowing/life-transforming 'encounter with God'


QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
”To say that using psychedelics produce repeatable experiences of God would be a stretch”


Psychedelic drugs produce repeatable experiences of the intense psychedelic (mind-manifesting) state of consciousness, that much is certain.
Mind-manifesting state of consciousness... Is that like supercalifragilisticexpialidocious state of consciousness?
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *
It is then a further line of enquiry, to say what exactly does psychedelic consciousness consists of, and why it is so strongly associated with profound, life-changing ‘conversion’ experiences.

Well people used to think the world was flat. Nothing wrong with thinking about things that aren't necessarily true. People do what they must to get to know themselves and their world better.
So you will follow your line of enquiry and maybe some will follow you over that edge..

Imagine how life transforming it was when man accepted a different reality than a flat earth.. and imagine how life transforming it will be when you wake up to the natural processes of expanding consciousness and you abandon your beliefs that expansion of consciousness was and always has been the result of mind bending substances and superstition.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
“I would agree that the use of drugs repeatedly produces an experience, but never the same experience twice.”


You need to distinguish between the two senses of “sameness”, there is numerical sameness, and qualitative sameness
Think of ‘psychedelic’ as a quality which certain experiences possess (specifically, the experiences that people have after they ingest psychedelic plants and chemicals are ‘psychedelic’ experiences). Using drugs repeatedly and reliably causes experiences which are qualitatively unified under the banner of ‘psychedelic’. Every psychedelic drug-induced experience is ‘the same’ in this specific sense, i.e. they all possess this same quality (the quality of being psychedelic, i.e. mind-manifesting)

psychedelic/mind manifesting. Meaning that taking hallucinogens creates illusions by compromising the natural functioning of the nervous system and the senses. Typical to the psychedelic experience using a psychedelic, is in the sameness of terminology you refer to, similar to saying if you take any drug you will experience the effect of the drug because of its nature to affect certain cognitive systems in the nervous system by the measure of those who are setting their own standards of reality before the measure of evaluation.
Being that the nervous system of each individual is unique due to certain personality factors... to say that the effects are qualified to produce the same life changing effect for everyone who ingests entheogens is without merit.
People determine on their own the values and ideas of life and what changes those values and ideas, just as Hoffman did and as so many others who have made their determinations of reality. Eventually theories are superseded by someone else with their bigger and better theory.
Personally, it wasn't the psychedelic experience that altered my way of thinking. That (the psychedelic experience) only reflected what I wanted to experience based on what I thought I could experience. Beyond that my desire drew the necessary experiences which then led me to more experiences and eventually you come to realize using a natural cognitive approach (sans drugs) the value of nature and its potencies that are available to anyone if they just wish to quit ignoring it.

There are other methods, and some that require a little bit more of a discipline than taking drugs and following your imagination into thoughts about something you have no experience with.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
“You can call them mind blowing but that means nothing”


Specifically, these experiences are mind-manifesting, they reveal the deeper levels of mind that are normally hidden from consciousness

That, is subjective. I never had a thought on psychedelics that I didn't or couldn't have without them. The senses did become distorted so that my experiences would be different than without the drugs but that goes without saying for any drug.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
“You can jump out of an airplane and have a guaranteed mind blowing experience if you have never done so before. Having sex for the first time can create a mind blowing experience.”


Neither jumping out of a plane, nor having sex, will cause you to have a psychedelic (mind-manifesting) experience, for that you need to take drugs

Now we are just getting to whittle down the verbiage so that the term mind blowing becomes more succinct in its definition as psychedelic in your terms. The whole mind manifesting thing is still such a fantasy. We're gonna have to keep whittling that one down to reveal the worth of that term..fer sure fer sure..
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
”You cannot guarantee that a psychedelic trip is going to be the same for anyone.”


Again you are failing to distinguish between the 2 senses of ‘sameness’, every person’s psychedelic trip is ‘the same’ in the sense that they are all ‘psychedelic’, they all possess this ‘same’ quality. The crucial line of enquiry then, is to determine exactly what this property ‘psychedelic’ consists of and why these experiences are so significant.

My bad you keep making references to mystical, Jesus, expanded consciousness etc when really all you are trying to say is taking drugs has an effect. I get that now. The whole ego death theory and its suppositions which include the wild determinations regarding Jesus and Buddha is just something someone imagines and has nothing to do with ego death as it was originally proposed in ancient scripture. You're just enamored with your ideas the same way Hitler was enamored with his, or the way the heavens gate cult was into their belief, or even Charley Manson and how he believed he had expanded his awareness into his revelation of becoming Jesus or like Jesus. He Tripped alot.... huh.gif
You have to give humanity credit for its imagination. I give humanity credit for having an imagination, but then not all roads of the imagination lead directly to conscious awareness. Sometimes you have to follow enough bad road in order to recognize the difference between a dead end and a thorough fare.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
“It will be different for each individual, and there is no reality in predicting it will be spiritual, mystical or even pleasant.”


You can predict with 100% certainty that every individual who takes a sufficient dose of psychedelic drugs will have an experience of intense psychedelic altered consciousness.

Yes I get that. Never had an argument with that Idea, it was all the other glorified terms that you pasted on this idea that we necessarily had to wade thru to get to this simple fact. An intense altered state can mean anything from intense depression and fear to wild hallucinations and distortions of reality. Take a sufficient amount of any drug and you can take the nervous system to the brink of sanity and maybe retain it after the body can flush it out and recover.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE

“I would agree it would give you an experience of tripping, and I would agree it would change your awareness of what it is to trip when you hadn't before. Whether it makes you smarter or actually expands your consciousness above and beyond the ego... well..., from my own experience I would say absolutely not.”


Tripping doesn’t make anyone smarter, what it does do, is to reveal the psyche-delic perspective to the mind

yes it doesn't make you smarter.. like fer sure you know..totally.

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE
”Drugs can alter a state temporarily but altering something does not establish a new state of consciousness, especially when one comes back to the mind that is still operating at a cognitive level that is ego bound albeit shaken but not necessarily stirred into the awareness of the underlying secrets of how reality is created.”


Drugs automatically transform one’s state of consciousness, temporarily, into the psychedelic altered state, i.e. when you take drugs, you will automatically ‘trip’ for a few hours. Normally, a trip ends, the ordinary state of consciousness is resumed, and any metaphysical insights revealed during the trip are forgotten moreorless completely, but when ‘ego death’ occurs (this is not an ‘automatic’ occurrence, rather this is something that happens to experienced trippers after multiple trip experiences), the mind is permanently transformed to a new way of thinking, so that even though the ordinary state of consciousness resumes, the insights are not forgotten, and one’s entire mental worldmodel is left permanently transformed. That is why it is not uncommon to hear experienced trippers say that they were left permanently changed by their trip experience. Ego death theory purports to describe and explain this transformation when it does happen.


transforms.. like a hammer transforms your head when it hits it. You could say your life was transformed after any experience. You certainly don't have to take drugs to have an experience change the direction of your thoughts. In truth tho one does not make life transforming changes without the initial desire. You can say it was an experience but that would be backwards. First comes the desire than the experiences, not the other way around.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

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”What you surmise would be different than the ego death described in the teachings of Advaita Vedanta, or the original teachings of Jesus or Buddha.”


Psychedelic ego death and transcendence is a universal, innate hardwired potential of the human mind. All religious systems equivalently provide models for this mental transformation – thus Jesus’ crucifixion, Buddha’s enlightenment, and the discovery of the principle of non-duality (ad-vaita) are all essentially equivalent references to ego death

The nervous system is capable of naturally achieving expanded states of consciousness and expansion of consciousness is hardwired into every nervous system. To say it is hardwired to receive psychedelic experiences as the means is similar to saying it is hard wired to expire and explode if you plug yourself into 10000 volts of electricity at 1 amp. You take liberties with truths that are relative, like the National Enquirer takes liberties with facts and embellishes them to sell paper.
QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

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”I won't go into what the bible says, since it barely represents anything close to what the disciples actually learned from their teacher about mysticism and God”


The stories of Jesus and the disciples are not literal, historical occurences, they do not refer to real people (Jesus never existed as a single historical individual, ‘Jesus’ is a Hebrew word meaning ‘anointed’, it is not a name of a person). Jesus is actually a set of stories which allegorically describe the process of mystical death and rebirth, that is ‘True Religion’.


Mmmmm... NO!

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

QUOTE

“Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection testimony to the spirit that lives eternally within. His life an example of one who has brought that forward into the physical life consciously and permanently, and his death the example of that living spirit continuing regardless of the body which is worn like a set of clothes.
Buddha's awakening under the Bhodi tree was not an allegory. It was a description of an event. When revelation thru inner contemplation removed the door between the physical and the non-physical Self permanently, and it had nothing to do with any kind of drug or mind altering substance.”


You seem to think that Buddha and Jesus are real people, and that the stories about them refer to literal historical occurrences. That whole way of understanding religion is a lower, degraded version of what true, esoteric (psychedelic) religion is all about.

Oh I'm sure it is in your determination. As I said before. An illusion is still an illusion.

QUOTE(max_freakout @ Aug 28, 2011, 05:36 AM) *

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”If you take LSD, you will 'walk on water' like Jesus, and 'see walls of water' like Moses, because those stories are primarily intended as general purpose descriptions of entheogenic experiencing.

No. You may see and imagine things, but you won't be walking on water.”


Of course you don’t literally walk on water in an LSD trip, the point is that the whole idea of ‘walking on water’ is an allegorical reference to the standard perceptual effects of LSD, the world takes on a fluid, flowing appearance, in sharp contrast to the ‘solid’ appearance that is a standard feature of the ordinary unaltered state of consciousness

Actually the whole walking on water thing has to do with a kind of physics and the way the mind affects particles that are made up of conscious ether, and not so much a psychedelic experience.
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