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> Religions Actual Usefulness, More Harm Than Good
maximus242
post Nov 29, 2006, 05:16 PM
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Alright as your all quite familiar, terrorists are attacking everywhere, but few of us look at the root reason as to why they attack... Religion! Yes thats right, all those terrorists believe that by dying and killing people, they are doing their gods bidding and will be rewarded in the afterlife, boy are they in for a suprise.

Anyone remember a little thing called WWII? Remember something called the Holocaust? Why did such an atrocity occur? Because of the religion that people believed in!

Anyone else feel that religion causes more harm than good?
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Lindsay
post Nov 29, 2006, 07:27 PM
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Max, what are you trying to do, start a fight? If so, put up your dukes!!!! laugh.gif

But seriously, first of all, you need to define what you mean by "religion"

IMO, we accomplish very little by stating the obvious? Let's face it: For better or for worse, people are, incurably, spiritual beings and, therefore, religious. Some religions, are downright evil--the ones based on dogma and power; some are just stupid--the ones based on ignorance and superstition, and some are doing a lot of good--that is, the ones based on morality, ethics and on teaching us to be just and of loving service to one another.

I prefer to spend my time bringing the latter kind together and using them to do a lot more good.
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maximus242
post Nov 29, 2006, 07:51 PM
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Yes but it is the power that comes with that religion that is the problem Lindsay. Look at the Pope, what he says is right and wrong affects the way millions of people organize their lives - absolute power corrupts absolutly

laugh.gif No im not trying to start a fight, just angry at all the suffering caused by something thats supposed to help people.
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Joesus
post Nov 29, 2006, 07:51 PM
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Having A high I.Q. doesn't necessarily mean being intelligent.

WWII, The Nazis were a radical group that came about because of the economic situation in Germany. When a loaf of bread cost $1000.00 people became hungry and when panic sets in irrational thinking comes about and blame is cast in some direction that makes sense to the irrational mind.
Seeing as how the Jewish community was taking care of itself and had accumulated some wealth before the economic hard times, those who didn't have, took to blaming the ones who did have for their own problems.
Hitler was a mouthpiece of influence, not in the beginning as the leader, but as a resonant spokesperson for a radical group trying to disrupt government.
When Hitler took power and over time followed through with his distorted beliefs that the haves (Jews) were the reason for the have nots, then the wealth was stripped from the jews and they were put into labor camps where they were tortured, killed and scientifically experimented on.
Hitler also having been infected by syphilis took his distorted views to an extreme.

The reality of religions is that they come about when man looks for answers to freedom from suffering. Anyone who stands out as voice of truth may have a following and that following can be labeled as a religion.

I'm fascinated still by the fact that adults haven't executed children in their process of learning, for the process that leads to fighting is always ignorance of reality. Just as a school boy will pick a fight on the school yard because he doesn't like something about the other person adults who are still ignorant of their own feelings and understanding of reality will just like the school boy pick a fight with something he doesn't like about another. Without understanding the thinking and the background of the other he will strike first without asking questions because in his own mind is formulated all of the reasons to justify the uselessness of the other person.

The outer is always a reflection of what is held in the mind as truth. Right and wrong are defined individually according to ones own suffering and suffering can be defines as simply as being uncomfortable whether for a minute of for a lifetime.
Being uncomfortable with Life is caused by the misunderstanding of reality and lifes purpose.
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maximus242
post Nov 29, 2006, 07:58 PM
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Your right, having a high IQ only constitues logical intelligence, not emotional. When the emotions take over the logical mind, you better be in tuned to your feelings.

You know I will be the last person to generalize, all religions are not created equal - but its when the religions start taking on fanatical groups that issue death threats for having a cartoon of a religious leader. Or terrorizing innocent people because someone says they will live on in the afterlife because of it, this is when something needs to be done.

This is the real root of terrorisim, the religions that promise an afterlife of prosperity to those who give their lives for their religion and bring other people pain. Its at that point that the paticular religion is doing more harm than good that it needs to be disemminated or at least needs a major overhaul.

Certain Religions DO cause more happiness and prosperity than they cause harm. For example, Buddhism teaches to love all creatures and show everyone kindness and respect, I certainly do not have a problem with all religions - but I certainly have a problem with some.

I respect peoples rights to choose a religion, I just dont respect people who excuse murder with religion.
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Joesus
post Nov 29, 2006, 08:16 PM
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People who suffer want freedom from suffering and are easily influenced by those who promise a way out.
As long as people exist who will put their needs before the needs of the many, greed will corrupt governments and religion.

People are not inherently bad nor is the reason for faith of any kind bad. Some things are necessary for the growth of humanity.
If you look at how many people don't participate in government, who don't vote, by reason that they believe they have no influence, there lies a potential melting pot for a savior to come along and give them hope and reason to move in a direction where they will have some influence on their own situations and their experience of helplessness.
What I describe exists in every country all over the world and those that are not starving and have clothes and a roof over their heads are not yet pushed to a point of radical aggression, but it wouldn't take much to push them. Just take away their freedom, their food and their homes and they may do whatever they can to survive even if it means killing their neighbor.
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maximus242
post Nov 29, 2006, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE
What I describe exists in every country all over the world and those that are not starving and have clothes and a roof over their heads are not yet pushed to a point of radical aggression, but it wouldn't take much to push them. Just take away their freedom, their food and their homes and they will do whatever they can to survive even if it means killing their neighbor.


A very acurate description indeed.

That is where I often refer to the Shepard leading the Sheep, the average person is a sheep and those who are the leaders are the shepards. The sheep do not think, they do not have opinions - they simply do to what their told.

Back in rome a prominent General staged an attack from Barbarians to get his men to fight... on September 11, George Bush... well you get the idea.
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Joesus
post Nov 29, 2006, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 30, 2006, 04:23 AM) *

QUOTE
What I describe exists in every country all over the world and those that are not starving and have clothes and a roof over their heads are not yet pushed to a point of radical aggression, but it wouldn't take much to push them. Just take away their freedom, their food and their homes and they will do whatever they can to survive even if it means killing their neighbor.


A very acurate description indeed.

That is where I often refer to the Shepard leading the Sheep, the average person is a sheep and those who are the leaders are the shepards. The sheep do not think, they do not have opinions - they simply do to what their told.

The Sheep create their shepherds as they need them because they are not willing to lead themselves.
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Hey Hey
post Nov 29, 2006, 09:12 PM
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I put to you that all of the agro in the world is simply evolution in action. And evolution does not always produce the perfect solutions; rather it just keeps throwing ideas into the ballpark. So why wouldn't we expect agro?

After world peace (utinam) we'll see the war of the worlds. Evolution is a fundamental principal of the universe (I predict).
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Joesus
post Nov 29, 2006, 09:17 PM
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You predict, or cognize? Truth has no timeline.
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Hey Hey
post Nov 29, 2006, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 05:17 AM) *

Truth has no timeline.

Truth evolves.
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Joesus
post Nov 29, 2006, 09:30 PM
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Perception of Truth evolves
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Hey Hey
post Nov 29, 2006, 09:40 PM
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If:
QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 05:17 AM) *

Truth has no timeline.

and
QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 05:17 AM) *

Perception of Truth evolves

Then perception of truth has no timeline.

But, more importantly, the perception of time has no truth.
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Joesus
post Nov 29, 2006, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE
But, more importantly, the perception of time has no truth.

Self realization, awareness of Truth is perceived as evolution.
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Flex
post Nov 29, 2006, 10:53 PM
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Is there anyone who
Ever remembers changing there mind from
The paint on a sign?
Is there anyone who really recalls
Ever breaking rank at all
For something someone yelled real loud one time

Everyone believes
In how they think it ought to be
Everyone believes
And they're not going easily

Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword
Like punching under water
You never can hit who you're trying for

Some need the exhibition
And some have to know they tried
It's the chemical weapon
For the war that's raging on inside

Everyone believes
From emptiness to everything
Everyone believes
And no ones going quietly

We're never gonna win the world
We're never gonna stop the war
We're never gonna beat this
If belief is what we're fighting for

What puts a hundred thousand children in the sand
Belief can
Belief can
What puts the folded flag inside his mother's hand
Belief can
Belief can

-John Mayer
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Hey Hey
post Nov 29, 2006, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 06:26 AM) *

QUOTE
But, more importantly, the perception of time has no truth.

Self realization, awareness of Truth is perceived as evolution.

Time is merely a construct to make this reply come after your quote above. But you might believe in time. That could be your problem. Also, how can you believe in truth when you quote so much about illusion (your posts on other boards on this forum)?
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Flex
post Nov 29, 2006, 11:30 PM
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lol don't even try to get an answer on this one...I have posed the same question like 6 times on the other boards with little success...Maybe if we both team up on him he will cave in tongue.gif
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Flex
post Nov 29, 2006, 11:41 PM
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I can actually say that I have gotten a lot out of religion myself (indirectly). Coach Ben Parks is without a doubt the greatest man I have ever met. In all of my years of education, which I guess are not that many really, I have only been taught about life through Coach. He is a very religious man, but he has so much to offer. Nothing could express how greatful I am for all that he has given me.

Even on brain meta, religion has proven very useful. Lindsay for one has made a very positive contribution to my life--not once have I ever hear an unkind word from his. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of his views, he still has much to teach me. If everyone held the same beliefs, then what would all of you intelectuals debate?

Lindsay I am sorry if I ever offend you with what I say, it is not my intension. Thank you very much for being such a great person, and enabling discussions by lending an opposing viewpoint.
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Hey Hey
post Nov 30, 2006, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 07:41 AM) *

not once have I ever hear an unkind word from her. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of her views, she still has much to teach me.

Just to be scientific, she's a he:

Attached Image

And yes, I agree, he's one of the good guys.
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Flex
post Nov 30, 2006, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Nov 30, 2006, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 07:41 AM) *

not once have I ever hear an unkind word from her. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of her views, she still has much to teach me.

She's a he:

Attached Image


Lol no kidding? Well change those pronouns then smile.gif Like I said I did not mean to offend~ I'm going to go back and change those. But please keep this post, it is pretty funny I want to remember that little mistake hehe.
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Joesus
post Nov 30, 2006, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE
Time is merely a construct to make this reply come after your quote above. But you might believe in time.


I might but how does that affect you?

QUOTE
That could be your problem.

Have you surmised that I have a problem?

QUOTE
Also, how can you believe in truth when you quote so much about illusion (your posts on other boards on this forum)?

Truth and illusion are two different things, relative to the construct to make a reply to the topic at hand..(to put in terms you like to use).
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Flex
post Nov 30, 2006, 12:11 AM
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relative to what construct was this exactly?
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Joesus
post Nov 30, 2006, 02:00 AM
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The constructs of reality that are created through illusions of changing beliefs and changing experiences..
Relative Truths change. They are illusions of truth.
There is one thing that never changes, perception of that can change when filtered through beliefs and personalities.
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Lindsay
post Nov 30, 2006, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 12:04 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Nov 30, 2006, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 30, 2006, 07:41 AM) *

not once have I ever hear an unkind word from her. Even if I do not necessarily agree with all of her views, she still has much to teach me.

She's a he:Attached Image


Lol no kidding? Well change those pronouns then smile.gif Like I said I did not mean to offend~ I'm going to go back and change those. But please keep this post, it is pretty funny I want to remember that little mistake hehe.
How I got my name.

I am the seventh child of a family of eight. All now in the "other dimension"...wherever that is...except for my younger sister, who is one and one-half years younger than I. She and her large family live in Grande Cache, Alberta--wonderful part of the country.

Our parents were Eleazar (Hebrew for God has helped) King and Maud Kelloway (the Kells who went away, from Ireland to wherever)...I love word and delving into the root meanings of words and names. Our parents got little help from God and they needed another child like they needed another hole in their heads.

Believe it or not, I was named after the famous American avaitor, Charles A. Lindbergh, who was nick-named "Lucky Lindy". On his way to France, he flew right over St. John's, just a few miles from where I was born. My mother heard the name over the radio--lots of static in those days--as "Lindsay". I was number seven. Thus I got the name. And I have been very lucky. laugh.gif

BTW, I understand that "Lindsay" is a family name in Scotland. The Lindsays--linesayers--were the old poets.
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Flex
post Nov 30, 2006, 01:41 PM
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Well now I know tongue.gif I would share an interesting story about my name (my real name) but I know nothing about it. lol I don't think I could even spell it till I was like 6
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Flex
post Nov 30, 2006, 01:42 PM
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Well now I know tongue.gif I would share an interesting story about my name (my real name) but I know nothing about it. lol I don't think I could even spell it till I was like 6
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maximus242
post Nov 30, 2006, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 30, 2006, 03:00 AM) *

The constructs of reality that are created through illusions of changing beliefs and changing experiences..
Relative Truths change. They are illusions of truth.
There is one thing that never changes, perception of that can change when filtered through beliefs and personalities.


That statement is also based on a perception.

Time is a mental construct used by the consciousness to percieve the relative flow of actions. The sub-conscious knows no time, people have experienced hours of time in only minutes while in the Alpha state - these theories were confirmed by Milton Erickson and Cooper. Thus we find that time and the passage of time is relative to our perception and can even be modified - time passes slower in stressful situations as a evolutionary defence mechanism and faster during enjoyable situations.
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Lindsay
post Nov 30, 2006, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 29, 2006, 07:58 PM) *
Certain Religions DO cause more happiness and prosperity than they cause harm. For example, Buddhism teaches us to love all creatures and show everyone kindness and respect...
Interestingly, the great inventor, Tesla, very spiritually-minded scientist and the son of a religious leader, suggested that Buddhism and Christianity, combined, would make a very good kind of religion. I agree.

Max, your comment, as follows, makes sense:
QUOTE
I certainly do not have a problem with all religions...just some.


If I understand you, Max, it is fanaticism and superstition--sick religion--which you do not like, right? Join the club. Most moderate religious leaders, grounded in common-sense, agree with you. We also agree that there is room for a great variety of religions, including non-Christian ones.

WHAT IS A SICK RELIGION?
IMO, a sick religion is any one with leaders which advocate the following:

We are the one and only true custodians of the one true faith.
We have a hot line to the one true God, our God.
If necessary, we have the right to impose, by force, the one true faith on all people.
We have the right to define what is true politics, true education, including the sciences and the arts.
God, being infallible, has no need for democracy.
We expect the faithful to obey, pray and pay, without question.
=========================
What other points would you like to add?


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Flex
post Nov 30, 2006, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Nov 30, 2006, 08:17 PM) *

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 29, 2006, 07:58 PM) *
Certain Religions DO cause more happiness and prosperity than they cause harm. For example, Buddhism teaches us to love all creatures and show everyone kindness and respect...
Interestingly, the great inventor, Tesla, very spiritually-minded scientist and the son of a religious leader, suggested that Buddhism and Christianity, combined, would make a very good kind of religion. I agree.

Max, your comment, as follows, makes sense:
QUOTE
I certainly do not have a problem with all religions...just some.


If I understand you, Max, it is fanaticism and superstition--sick religion--which you do not like, right? Join the club. Most moderate religious leaders, grounded in common-sense, agree with you. We also agree that there is room for a great variety of religions, including non-Christian ones.

WHAT IS A SICK RELIGION?
IMO, a sick religion is any one with leaders which advocate the following:

We are the one and only true custodians of the one true faith.
We have a hot line to the one true God, our God.
If necessary, we have the right to impose, by force, the one true faith on all people.
We have the right to define what is true politics, true education, including the sciences and the arts.
God, being infallible, has no need for democracy.
We expect the faithful to obey, pray and pay, without question.
=========================
What other points would you like to add?


You hit the nail on the head--I couldn't agree more.
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Joesus
post Nov 30, 2006, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE
That statement is also based on a perception.

Of course it is. Truth can be cognized and is not illusive, just ignored.
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