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> The Mormon Cult?
maximus242
post Oct 15, 2007, 10:38 AM
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I have noticed a great deal of cult like behavior amongst Mormons, I am wondering if anyone has had prior experience in the Mormon society. I think some of its members wish to leave the church but do not know how to do so. It is with this is mind that it becomes a cult over a religion - more a form of control than empowerment. Here are a few of the things I have noticed thus far. In just their physical appearance alone, there are a few quirks.

#1 Suits. They all wear black or brown suits when recruiting new members. In cults everyone wears the same form of dress.

#2 Short Hair. All male members seem to have short hair cuts, somewhat similar to military hair cuts.

Now at this point you may argue that I need only walk down wall street to see the same thing. However, this is unusual practice for a church and follows one of the steps in cult formation.

I have noticed several tactics attempted to be used in the Mormon society. Isolation, De-Personalization, Peer Pressure and the creation of New "Identities".

Cults typically follow a process of first isolating a member, de-personalizing them.. which is a disgusting practice I will not get into. Then after the members recognize their previous views were "wrong" they are given new beliefs, and a title or sometimes another name. This is the point where they form new identities about the people within their church. The old self is left behind which helps to essentially end any last resistance to the ideology.

Mormons seemed to use a great deal of peer pressure in attempting to recruit their members, by having 2-5 sometimes even 10 people show up at a persons doorstep and attempt to use peer pressure to get the person to join the "church.

So, I have been considering infiltrating the church and gathering evidence to show the cult like tactics of the Mormon church. The main reason I feel this needs to be done, is because some of its members seem to want out - but for whatever reason are unable to get out. I think something needs to be done - before more peoples lives are ruined.

I also found a website about people who have left the Mormon society and they are claiming that the Mormon church is also a cult.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon387.htm

I have not been in the Mormon Church so I cannot speak from first hand experience - has anyone been involved with this group before?
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lucid_dream
post Oct 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
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i've seen no evidence for cult-like behavior from the Mormons. Polygamy - yes. Cultism - no.
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Rick
post Oct 23, 2007, 10:41 AM
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If a person I know became more secretive and defensive of his religion since converting to LDS, would that be evidence of cultism?
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trojan_libido
post Oct 23, 2007, 10:57 AM
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I know a Mormon from work and him and his wife often spend all their holiday time at the church within the UK, which is one of the largest anywhere. They have to deduct around 20% of all earnings towards this group, which I believe is wrong in itself, but they seem totally brainwashed. Any discussion of any of the flaws within the religion only brings blank stares and then preaching.

I personally feel very sorry for this person, although he seems happy enough. If a cult makes people happy, is it wrong? When people are brainwashed to be happy, is this wrong? I'm not sure on the answer, but its an interesting thought experiment.

People being afraid to leave any cult/religion is wrong. Are they afraid because they fear physical violence or something, or is it purely them being afraid of the reactions of their peers? If you isolate yourself and make a cult your life, then you really have no where else to turn, which I can imagine is hell when you want to leave.
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maximus242
post Oct 23, 2007, 06:30 PM
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Its known as "love bombing" where the cult will befriend and support a member so long as they do not disagree with the church. If they do they become isolated and alone, so in order to regain that love and friendship - they agree to do what their told and get all their so called friends back.

Cultists are made to believe they are happy, they are told to be cheerful, what actually goes on within may be a very different story.

The infamous Camp David is a good example, everyone appeared to happy - until they started shooting people with machine guns.
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maximus242
post Oct 23, 2007, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 23, 2007, 12:41 PM) *

If a person I know became more secretive and defensive of his religion since converting to LDS, would that be evidence of cultism?


It would be a start but just because they become defensive about religion does not stand alone as proof of cultism.

One major trait is the victim becomes cut off from the outside world, spends less and less time with people outside the church. In extreme cases, they do not speak to anyone but members of the church and become virtually impossible to be reached by family members - unless they too are members of the organization.
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Lincoln Cannon
post Nov 03, 2007, 06:34 PM
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Hi maximus242. I'm a Mormon, and both a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Mormon Transhumanist Association. Whether we are a cult depends, I suppose, on how one defines "cult", but I don't consider myself a cultist.
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maximus242
post Nov 03, 2007, 06:56 PM
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Interesting, there are a number of ways in which one evaluates whether or not something is a cult. Sociologists are the main experts in this field as their job is to study human behavior and interaction, as well as how to influence that behavior.

There are certain organizations which are already considered to be a cult however, authorities have had difficulty in taking down these organizations. One good example is the Church of Scientology, the United States has tried to arrest it's leaders countless times, but they have become quite good at evading such attempts.

There are many ways really of determining cultism or the exertion of mental control over others. One simple way you may wish to try is a "cult checklist".

It can be obtained here http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

All cults have the same simple methods of indoctrination. While they may hide them very well, the actual differences between a cult and a religion are quite simple.
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Joesus
post Nov 04, 2007, 09:34 AM
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From the cult checklist:
Don't feel you have to take any of the following seriously. I find I can't when it comes to trying to define social behavior.

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
If the leader is dead any concept of leaders belief is subjective, and the personality attaching itself to a dead leaders belief is not leaders belief but belief in leaders representation to something, or nothing. "Cult" member has no life and as such gets what he/she can from sucking off of a group dynamic.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

This could describe anyone in the military, and any associated branch of government with mercenary like training. This could have even extended itself into past behavior of organizations such as the Boy Scouts of America, ROTC, and other military type schools

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
This I think is an exaggerated fear based concept. The belief that meditation could numb the mind of its ability to think and discern, or chanting, or speaking in toungues, etc.
Basically you get what you started with. Anyone with a twisted mind after or during these types of activities, brought it with them. Since there "is no law" against social or spiritual gatherings or religious expression, this will continue to manifest itself as long as like minded people seek commonality, or some meaning and purpose for their life that they missed while growing up in a family environment and or social institute such as a public school system or free church.

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
What kind of car you should drive, what kind of beer you should drink, what gets the girl or guy....This could be applied to politics, public schools, parochial schools and the media, as well as Church organizations, Large corporations and the military

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

This could be applied to any group, depending on how high one places the pedestal would be the extent of the godlike qualities of leadership.
Most recently It was mentioned that if I was to go to a certain mushroom website and challenge their beliefs I would be ripped apart for the good of the whole/humanity by members who were of exalted states or higher consciousness.

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Whitest, blacks, Mexicans, Arabs, Jews, corporations, Fraternities, Sororities, school football games, baseball games, basketball games, government policy, neighborhoods that have gated communities..

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
There is no such thing as being invisible to community authority, or common sense, unless you have the miracle power. People believe and create what they want to create.

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
Does this mean that any criminal behavior is cult behavior? Also who hasn't lied to their parents or someone in their family more than once?

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.Sounds like most parents I know when they tell their kids that other people are watching them and they should act like grownups, or stop acting like children.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Boot Camp, in any branch of the military

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.Any branch of the military when membership runs low

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.Every organization on the planet, or when two or more are gathered together to earn a wage to pay their rent and buy groceries. Or the guy on the corner or at the traffic signal, with the homeless and hungry" sign.
To the extent that someone was totally preoccupied with making money, they probably wouldn't have the time or the inclination to engage in any other activity listed above, so generalizing I assume is within the contexts of these descriptions.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

What doesn't come to mind is Congress or the U.S. Senate, but what does come to mind are many of the charitable organizations that are always scrambling to make up where others leave. Soup kitchens and bread lines that are always in need of help.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
There goes any ability to recruit new members or to really get out and make money.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
Reminds me of the workers at Boeing when layoffs started happening. Most thought they wouldn't find a job anywhere nor live within the same social standards they created earning a steady income. IF they had to actually work weekends they couldn't party on the weekends and would drift out of favor with their friends who were also maintaining an image.
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Hudzon
post Nov 04, 2007, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE

All cults have the same simple methods of indoctrination. While they may hide them very well, the actual differences between a cult and a religion are quite simple.

Oh? What are the differences, then?
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maximus242
post Nov 04, 2007, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 04, 2007, 10:34 AM) *

From the cult checklist:
Don't feel you have to take any of the following seriously. I find I can't when it comes to trying to define social behavior.

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
If the leader is dead any concept of leaders belief is subjective, and the personality attaching itself to a dead leaders belief is not leaders belief but belief in leaders representation to something, or nothing. "Cult" member has no life and as such gets what he/she can from sucking off of a group dynamic.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

This could describe anyone in the military, and any associated branch of government with mercenary like training. This could have even extended itself into past behavior of organizations such as the Boy Scouts of America, ROTC, and other military type schools

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
This I think is an exaggerated fear based concept. The belief that meditation could numb the mind of its ability to think and discern, or chanting, or speaking in toungues, etc.
Basically you get what you started with. Anyone with a twisted mind after or during these types of activities, brought it with them. Since there "is no law" against social or spiritual gatherings or religious expression, this will continue to manifest itself as long as like minded people seek commonality, or some meaning and purpose for their life that they missed while growing up in a family environment and or social institute such as a public school system or free church.

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
What kind of car you should drive, what kind of beer you should drink, what gets the girl or guy....This could be applied to politics, public schools, parochial schools and the media, as well as Church organizations, Large corporations and the military

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

This could be applied to any group, depending on how high one places the pedestal would be the extent of the godlike qualities of leadership.
Most recently It was mentioned that if I was to go to a certain mushroom website and challenge their beliefs I would be ripped apart for the good of the whole/humanity by members who were of exalted states or higher consciousness.

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Whitest, blacks, Mexicans, Arabs, Jews, corporations, Fraternities, Sororities, school football games, baseball games, basketball games, government policy, neighborhoods that have gated communities..

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
There is no such thing as being invisible to community authority, or common sense, unless you have the miracle power. People believe and create what they want to create.

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
Does this mean that any criminal behavior is cult behavior? Also who hasn't lied to their parents or someone in their family more than once?

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.Sounds like most parents I know when they tell their kids that other people are watching them and they should act like grownups, or stop acting like children.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Boot Camp, in any branch of the military

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.Any branch of the military when membership runs low

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.Every organization on the planet, or when two or more are gathered together to earn a wage to pay their rent and buy groceries. Or the guy on the corner or at the traffic signal, with the homeless and hungry" sign.
To the extent that someone was totally preoccupied with making money, they probably wouldn't have the time or the inclination to engage in any other activity listed above, so generalizing I assume is within the contexts of these descriptions.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

What doesn't come to mind is Congress or the U.S. Senate, but what does come to mind are many of the charitable organizations that are always scrambling to make up where others leave. Soup kitchens and bread lines that are always in need of help.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
There goes any ability to recruit new members or to really get out and make money.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
Reminds me of the workers at Boeing when layoffs started happening. Most thought they wouldn't find a job anywhere nor live within the same social standards they created earning a steady income. IF they had to actually work weekends they couldn't party on the weekends and would drift out of favor with their friends who were also maintaining an image.


Joesus I think you may have misinterpreted many of the checklist items.

When it says that the group is pre-occupied with making money, they mean that the main goal of the group is to make money off of its followers. Rather than the objectives of a genuine religion which is to bring their god to society.

In reference to no outside contact, this is a strong indicator of cult behavior. One of the steps in maintaining indoctrination is to cut off contact with the outside world. It means that the members are told that it is wrong and even sinful to have contact with members outside of the church - or they have limited contact.

When they say that the group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. It refers to a practice where the leader is only concerned with increasing the size of his flock. In reality he does not care about the members he has so long as they continue to donate money to him. It is a subject of greed. Genuine religions rarely just let someone walk in and instantly they are Christian. Some religions pay no regard to an individual and their only real concern is their money.

Joesus, I assure you there are cults in this world and if you don't believe it I suggest you ask the survivors of Jonestone if what happened to them was right. If you go through organizations which have been confirmed to be radical cults - you will find that they score very well on this checklist.

I am not saying the military is a nice and fluffy organization. The military has in the past and will continue in the future to use illicit methods of command and recruitment. The difference is that in the military people are aware of what they are going into. They know what they will be doing.

Also Joesus, when they say cut off from friends and family. They mean indefinitely. Being cut off someone for a week is nothing to get worked up about. Cults aim to re-engineer a persons perception and their ego. In essence, the end result of cult indoctrination is the end of the former person and the beginning of the new person to whom the cult as created.

What I mean is, cults force their members into becoming entirely different people. A genuine religion may aim to cause a person to change - but they still respect that person as an individual created by their god.

While I agree that some mind-altering practices are not cult behaviour. I will give you a real life example of a cult that did use mind altering practices to cause indoctrination. In a Yoga studio, the members were told to do some very non yoga like exercises. While to someone who's never preformed Yoga, they would no know the difference. The problem was that these exercises caused a lack of blood to the brain. This resulted in a person blacking out - which was praised as a good thing and that it was a sign they were getting closer to enlightenment.

Upon awakening the person would enter into a state of deliruim - specifically they had become mentally vulnerable. After this they would go through the cult indoctrination. Once becoming members they subject to daily beatings and told this would help them to drive out the evil from them. Members who misbehaved or spoke up were beaten very harshly in a torture like fashion until they learnt not to speak up against the leader. Fortunately this cult was dismantled years ago.

Now 99.9999% of yoga studios are just yoga studios. But at times anywhere there can be cult like behaviour. It does not have to be religious or mind altering, it just makes it easier for the cult leader to excuse his or her actions.
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Joesus
post Nov 04, 2007, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE

Joesus I think you may have misinterpreted many of the checklist items.

No I only put them into a different context than an extremists point of reference to play devils advocate and to call the attention to the fact that many things on the list are part of our upbringing and accepted societal makings.
QUOTE

Joesus, I assure you there are cults in this world and if you don't believe it I suggest you ask the survivors of Jonestone if what happened to them was right. If you go through organizations which have been confirmed to be radical cults - you will find that they score very well on this checklist.

I don't believe in victims.
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maximus242
post Nov 04, 2007, 03:58 PM
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I agree, its everyone is responsible for their own lives. Ask yourself this though, what is evil?

Is it worse to commit evil unto others or to see that evil and do nothing?

I think both are wrong. To do nothing to stop evil, is to support it. What do you think?
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Joesus
post Nov 04, 2007, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 04, 2007, 11:58 PM) *

I agree, its everyone is responsible for their own lives. Ask yourself this though, what is evil?

Is it worse to commit evil unto others or to see that evil and do nothing?

I think both are wrong. To do nothing to stop evil, is to support it. What do you think?

There are many things that are happening in the world and that will continue to happen in the form of injustice, violence or evil, but it is us, the collective consciousness that creates it.
Cancer is still a big evil in peoples lives and there are many things that we are told we can do to prevent it but what is cancer? What creates it in an individual is not a simple idea that can be traced to a set of circumstances or we would have isolated the reason and created a preventative measure to contain it.

What we do to contain evil, whether to do something or nothing will depend on how much we know about the relationship of evil in mankind and its conscious awareness.
We are creators of our worlds, not just in terms of interpretation of matter and energy but in the underlying beliefs, fears or unconscious programs that run in the consciousness of human being.
We are ourselves devices manufactured out of thought, given direction by our own actions both physical and mental. We shape the environment, we shape everything around us by what we hold inside of us as reality in Truth.

If we, step into the reality of violence and dedicate ourselves to abolishing it, we, through our conscious intent give life or energy to its being.
If we seek to ignore violence because we do not wish it to be a part of us, we acknowledge its reality, and by the energy given to ignoring the reality we validate its presence and acknowledge it has a value and a strength.

Most Doctors know in order to treat a disease you do not just treat the symptoms but find the cause and then eliminate the cause.
People gravitate to a need, whether to be in control to find a meaning or purpose and or then fall into the creation of being controlled because of the need for attention.
The collective is a conglomeration of fears, ambitions, beliefs in possibilities and worse case scenarios and we as a society eat our hopes, dreams and fears and pass them into manifestation.

We as a species will not change anything as long as we continue to plant the seeds of this type of diversity through our own ignorance of creation.
We can, like the children who play with those little plastic toys with the pegs and the hammer, hit a peg down into the hole and then have another peg arise out of another hole, by continuing to ignore the reality of our own making, or we can become conscious enough to create greater examples of ourselves and to nurture the wholeness within ourselves and others so that we do not need to take advantage of others to gain what we don't see within ourselves, or to seek what we can't find within ourselves in others to make us whole.

I see that as long as the blind continue to lead the blind sight and comprehension is limited. There are influences within our civilization that direct the way we learn and think so that the balance of power will forever remain in the control of certain groups. We are as a society being led by leaders who are not that much different from cult leaders.
The U.S. has within its leadership an organized body creating the reasons to stay afraid of the impending threat of terrorism. Exorcising the rights and freedoms from the Constitution and the American people and it isn't isolated to the U.S. but is a worldwide disease.
We fail to realize what is true and what is fantasy and we allow others to make and create standards of life and protocol.

A while back (1997 or '98) Dateline had a special on the power of Authority.

They started the show by showing an old clip from Candid Camera. In this clip the victim of the show entered an elevator with about six other people in it. The funny thing was that the other six (who worked with Candid Camera) were told to face different directions at different times.

Normally when you are in an elevator you face the door, but this group all faced the inside panel with their backs toward the door. Even though this was very odd, the victim did not want to be different so he turned with his back toward the door. Then they showed several clips of the people in the elevator and every time the group turned, the victim turned with them.

It seemed kind of funny and I'm sure the Candid Camera audience got a good laugh out of it, but the reality behind this is the scariest human trait we possess. That is, most of mankind will follow the leader or group even if it makes no sense or if it goes against every moral teaching they have ever been taught.

The second part of the feature had an experiment done with college students. Again they had an unsuspecting victim participating with a group of about a half dozen that knew what was going on. The group was shown a set of four lines and of the four there were two of equal length. They were then asked to pick the two lines that were equal. They showed the lines on TV and it was obvious which two were the correct match.

The next thing they did was to have the planted students all give the same wrong match. Then when it became the victim's turn you could tell he began to doubt what his eyes and reasoning were telling him. Some of the victims gave the right answer for a round or two but one by one each victim gave in and started giving the wrong answer as the right answer, even though he knew within himself that it was wrong.

The interesting thing about watching their faces on TV was that they all looked a little depressed when they started knowingly giving the wrong answers as right answers. It was almost like the poor kids were selling their souls.

Finally they showed the most alarming experiment of all authority which was conducted by Stanley Milgram way back in the sixties.

Milgram was curious about how a group of apparently normal people like the Germans could have participated in the Nazi atrocities which was against every moral teaching that they ever believed in. Their excuse was always the same: "I was just following orders."

Below is a description of the experiment:

When the "teacher" asked whether increased shocks should be given he/she was verbally encouraged to continue. Sixty-five percent of the "teachers" obeyed orders to punish the learner to the very end of the 450-volt scale! No subject stopped before reaching 300 volts!

At times, the worried "teachers" questioned the experimenter, asking who was responsible for any harmful effects resulting from shocking the learner at such a high level. Upon receiving the answer that the experimenter assumed full responsibility, teachers seemed to accept the response and continue shocking, even though some were obviously extremely uncomfortable in doing so.

What was interesting about watching this on Dateline was that when the subject hit the high voltage the pretended victim screamed like crazy and even said he had a bad heart and that the experiment was killing him.

The subject then turned to the authority as if asking what to do and the authority told him to continue. If the subject seemed to doubt the authority told him that he would take responsibility.

Then the subject continued to shock the supposed victim past 300 volts until he went silent. This indicated the victim was either unconscious or dead. Still the subject did not cease. He continued to increase the voltage clear up to 450 which would mean that if the victim was not dead yet this would surely kill him.

The interesting thing is that if this was a real happening, the subject would not only have killed another human being which was against every teaching that he believed in, but he would have also been brought up on murder charges. It is scary that even that possibility did not deter the subject from following authority.

The funny thing about these experiments is that the scientists predicted that only one out of a thousand would follow an authority to shock up to 450 volts, but 65% went that far and 100% of the subjects went up to 300 volts, which is still enough to kill.

Thus we have a great example of the willingness to follow blind authority no matter what the consequences.

The interesting thing is that very few people know themselves well enough to know whether or not they would administer the 300 or more volts to an innocent brother. Most would think that they would never do such a thing, but are they right? Remember, 100% of those in the experiment yielded to the authority.
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maximus242
post Nov 04, 2007, 10:06 PM
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Very insightful post Joesus.
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trojan_libido
post Nov 05, 2007, 05:00 AM
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I've read and seen those results before, they are quite enlightening and terrifying all at once. If you told people directly they are nothing but drones being squeezed of their lives by the oppressive systems in place - I'm sure they'd laugh at you. If you showed them the evidence, most would be shocked or be in a state of disbelief.

Another instanct of degenerate group psychology is the case of a murdered individual in the US somewhere. Many people in the apartments all around watched a pair fighting in the street below, one pulled a gun and shot the other. There were over 20 witnesses and no-one rang the police, because everyone thought someone else would have rang them. The victim died because of this group behaviour.

I've only a small glimmer of hope that our behaviours are not all as cattle-like as that example.
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Lindsay
post Nov 05, 2007, 09:44 AM
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"There are many things that are happening in the world and that will continue to happen in the form of injustice, violence or evil, but it is us, the collective consciousness that creates it." writes Joesus writes. I agree.
QUOTE
MONKEY IN A BOX

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb toward the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, The experimenter sprays all of the other monkeys with cold water.

After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, all the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another one of the original monkeys and replace it with a new one. The new comer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm. Likewise, replace a third original with a new one, then a fourth then a fifth.

Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they are not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know:

�€œTHAT�€™S THE WAY IT�€™S ALWAYS BEEN DONE AROUND HERE�€�

And that, my friends, is how any society (be it a nation, or just a company) comes to being�€�

http://www.insideambercity.org/2007/09/30/monkey-in-a-box/

Questions which come to mind: To what extent am I just a monkey in a box? Am I part of an experiment? Or, am I doing the experimenting? Is there any way to find out whether I am one, or the other?
Perhaps because of my human nature--what I call the pneumatological factor--I am both.
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trojan_libido
post Nov 06, 2007, 01:06 AM
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Hehe, nice story Lindsay. It reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote: "Just because its tradition doesn't mean its right".

An example of this monkey-in-a-box behaviour is cheese rolling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper%27s_Hi...olling_and_Wake
This is silly tradition at its best, but we can communicate why the tradition began, which is probably more than the monkeys could do. If the monkeys were more intelligent, they would realise that no one has ever seen the response you get from actually reaching the hanging banana, and they should retest the old tradition as a group. They may even do this if the experiment was left running long enough.

This retesting is something many of us do everyday, especially the folks here on brainmeta. But there are still many people who follow tradition just because its traditional, a strange and very unrelenting form of silly logic.
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Hudzon
post Nov 09, 2007, 03:41 AM
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QUOTE
And that, my friends, is how any society (be it a nation, or just a company) comes to being�€�

You are wrong.
It may be the reason why any society came to being so far, but that doesn't imply that it holds true for any society that comes or will come to being.

And the next part is to everyone. Forgive me if I sound rude, but I am sick of hearing all this talk about human nature this, human nature that.
You forget that we are the society. I don't mean "we" as in "humankind", I mean "we" as in "You, me TL, Joesus and the OP". We are the society, we define what our values are, not some vague concept that people keep referring to as "human nature".

By saying that blindly following the group or any other irrational behavior is just a part of the "human nature" you aren't 'rationally criticizing society', you're just making an excuse as to why you aren't doing anything about it.

So, uh, I kinda forgot what the last part of my message was supposed to be, but you can try to interpolate what it might have been from what I've written so far.
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trojan_libido
post Nov 09, 2007, 04:31 AM
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QUOTE
By saying that blindly following the group or any other irrational behavior is just a part of the "human nature" you aren't 'rationally criticizing society', you're just making an excuse as to why you aren't doing anything about it.
Ok, so we know that individuals act differently when in a group setting. We as intelligent people now know this and can act upon it. But how can you realistically wake others up from this drone and flock like behaviour?

My suggestion is a heavy dose of psilocibin lol. *joke...wink.gif*
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Hudzon
post Nov 09, 2007, 04:38 AM
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For me to answer your question, you have to answer one of mine: Why would you wan to wake them up?
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trojan_libido
post Nov 09, 2007, 05:00 AM
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QUOTE(Hudzon)
you're just making an excuse as to why you aren't doing anything about it.
I don't think everyone should be 'woken' from their drone like behavioiur, i was simply replying in context to the quote above. There are too many lives at stake for everyone to suddenly start forging new paths.
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Hudzon
post Nov 09, 2007, 05:13 AM
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The quote above was meant to say that you have to wake up yourself. It holds no implications that you have to go about waking up other people.

QUOTE
There are too many lives at stake for everyone to suddenly start forging new paths.

Ignorance is bliss, then?
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Joesus
post Nov 09, 2007, 08:27 AM
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It would seem that many are willing to defend their limitations to the death.
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Lindsay
post Nov 09, 2007, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE(Hudzon @ Nov 09, 2007, 03:41 AM) *

QUOTE
And that, my friends, is how any society (be it a nation, or just a company) comes to being�€�

You are wrong....So, uh, I kinda forgot what the last part of my message was supposed to be, but you can try to interpolate what it might have been from what I've written so far.
Kinda "forgot"? So did the monkeys in the box. biggrin.gif
BTW, the comment about society was not made by me, but was in the story.
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Rick
post Nov 09, 2007, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE(Hudzon @ Nov 09, 2007, 03:41 AM) *
And the next part is to everyone. Forgive me if I sound rude, but I am sick of hearing all this talk about human nature this, human nature that.
You forget that we are the society. I don't mean "we" as in "humankind", I mean "we" as in "You, me TL, Joesus and the OP". We are the society, we define what our values are, not some vague concept that people keep referring to as "human nature".

Seems like Hudzon believes in free will...
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Rick
post Nov 09, 2007, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE(Hudzon @ Nov 09, 2007, 04:38 AM) *

For me to answer your question, you have to answer one of mine: Why would you wan to wake them up?

Because life would then be less frustrating in a political way?
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maximus242
post Nov 09, 2007, 01:10 PM
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Do you want the red pill, or the blue pill? ;D
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Rick
post Nov 09, 2007, 01:30 PM
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I forget which is which, but I want the wake-up one, please.
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trojan_libido
post Nov 09, 2007, 02:24 PM
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Red for action, Blue for stability. Don't you guys know your colour symbolism yet? smile.gif
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