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> More Evidence For A Fractal Universe
trojan_libido
post Jan 15, 2009, 05:17 AM
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Below is a link I found when talking to a colleague about the ideas of a Fractal Universe. He refused to believe that the Universe could be infinitely Fractal at both the Micro and Macro scales. I argued that whichever direction we look, we always find more, the only thing that restricts our view is our relatively poor sensory instruments.

http://www.fractaluniverse.org

I don't think the above link goes as far as I would in describing the fingerprints of a Fractal Universe. Whats quite funny though is the last page, which is labelled 'hurricane' yet displays an image of a tornado. Obviously the same rotary systems create both, so maybe the image was updated without much thought.

Additional info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_cosmology
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Hey Hey
post Jan 19, 2009, 09:14 AM
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Our world may be a giant hologram:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2012...t-hologram.html
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trojan_libido
post Jan 20, 2009, 12:35 AM
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Interesting article. I've read similar New Scientist articles on various theories.

I dont think the theories of a holographic Universe and a fractal Universe are incompatible.
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Phi
post Jan 20, 2009, 05:07 AM
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golden ratio. What reference point do you want to use? What perspective will you be satisfied with? How would you apply your perspective to your own existence?
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trojan_libido
post Jan 20, 2009, 05:48 AM
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What do you mean Golden Ratio?

Knowing what the Universe is or how its formed will not remove the need for questions and philosophy. I don't apply my beliefs in anyway that is proactive to my well being. I use my own knowledge and belief in a fractal universe to shrug when things get tough, and enjoy when things go correctly. Getting hung up on anything is generally bad.
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Phi
post Jan 20, 2009, 05:51 AM
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just leading toward how observation of nature led to what you're saying. I was just wondering what you are providing evidence to
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trojan_libido
post Jan 20, 2009, 06:40 AM
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A fractal Universe? It was stated at the top of the thread.
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Phi
post Jan 20, 2009, 06:44 AM
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sorry, I always assume that a topic fights an opposition...I wasn't aware of one in this case, so I was confused! hah.

I'm wondering though...knowing that it is a fractal universe, what can I do with such knowledge? I'm obviously the kind of person who always has to have some kind of point...sry if that's a weakness(I'm not really sorry though).
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trojan_libido
post Jan 20, 2009, 08:49 AM
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Thats what people have said previously on Brainmeta. How about if I told you that there was a new material, and that its atoms are lined up at such and such an angle, it conducts electricity and so on and so forth. Why should you care?

When they made electric lights lots of people thought it was pointless, because they couldn't see past the oil lamp.

The only real benefit I can take from the hypothesis, is that my place is the Universe is important, and at the same time, not important. Its my choice which I follow. Taking a fractal view at everything thats happened up to this point, cosmologically, historically and personally, I find I can explain everything thats happened.

Spiritually I can see why the images like Yin-Yang, Caduceus and serpent imagery have formed as an intuitive externalisation of the process that built the internal world. There is then less mystery as to why these images have bubbled to the surface multiple times until we finally had the technology to unravel biology and see the way nature encoded DNA.

A Universe that was Fractal would inspire people, they would feel they were somehow interconnected, their senses would feedback into their brains then the resulting thoughts be pushed outward into the world. This looping phenomenon is what biological organisms have been doing since they began to sense.

The feeling of oneness with the Universe may well be possible because we are simply an interation of the Universe and its rules. Arguments about divinity always come back to a circular argument. (personal experience again) People in the throws of madness can end up touching on some profound philosophy and questions, that they themselves don't really understand. For example:

I visited an old friend I've not spoken to for years, and whose almost completely deteriorated to insanity (alcoholic). He sits at his PC passing time playing PC games. He'd written on the wall "Theres no pleasure without pain", and he'd also drawn a comparitive YinYang symbol. He's almost illiterate, he can't read more than a few sentences. Every time I've spoken to him about my beliefs, I only get a few words in before he just smiles and plays an idiot devils advocate. "Nah but but, erm.. nah".

In amongst all of the mental confusion, self harming, cold turkey, and everything else the poor bastard goes through, here he is scribbling profound things on his wall. He doesn't even know why he wrote it, or how deep the statement is.

I believe to truly understand God and Divinity, you have to fall into the centre of a black hole. A lot of people lose their minds whilst they do so. Its like staring at the Sun.

Also I believe many people who begin to lose their minds happen upon statements like I've told about above. They enter places free from orthodox thinking, and these places seem to be full of intuitive philosophy.

I guess I believe that by making one relatively small mental adjustment, everything else sits together nicely in a personalised grand theory of everything. There is nothing that can't be explained logically from a fractal view point. Thats not to say I'm behaving like a bible basher 'God said its true so it is', not at all. Give me some random things (behaviors, technologies, natural objects) and I'll try and explain how that sits in my view.
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post Jan 20, 2009, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Jan 20, 2009, 04:49 PM) *

Thats what people have said previously on Brainmeta. How about if I told you that there was a new material, and that its atoms are lined up at such and such an angle, it conducts electricity and so on and so forth. Why should you care?

When they made electric lights lots of people thought it was pointless, because they couldn't see past the oil lamp.

The only real benefit I can take from the hypothesis, is that my place is the Universe is important, and at the same time, not important. Its my choice which I follow. Taking a fractal view at everything thats happened up to this point, cosmologically, historically and personally, I find I can explain everything thats happened.

Spiritually I can see why the images like Yin-Yang, Caduceus and serpent imagery have formed as an intuitive externalisation of the process that built the internal world. There is then less mystery as to why these images have bubbled to the surface multiple times until we finally had the technology to unravel biology and see the way nature encoded DNA.

A Universe that was Fractal would inspire people, they would feel they were somehow interconnected, their senses would feedback into their brains then the resulting thoughts be pushed outward into the world. This looping phenomenon is what biological organisms have been doing since they began to sense.

The feeling of oneness with the Universe may well be possible because we are simply an interation of the Universe and its rules. Arguments about divinity always come back to a circular argument. (personal experience again) People in the throws of madness can end up touching on some profound philosophy and questions, that they themselves don't really understand. For example:

I visited an old friend I've not spoken to for years, and whose almost completely deteriorated to insanity (alcoholic). He sits at his PC passing time playing PC games. He'd written on the wall "Theres no pleasure without pain", and he'd also drawn a comparitive YinYang symbol. He's almost illiterate, he can't read more than a few sentences. Every time I've spoken to him about my beliefs, I only get a few words in before he just smiles and plays an idiot devils advocate. "Nah but but, erm.. nah".

In amongst all of the mental confusion, self harming, cold turkey, and everything else the poor bastard goes through, here he is scribbling profound things on his wall. He doesn't even know why he wrote it, or how deep the statement is.

I believe to truly understand God and Divinity, you have to fall into the centre of a black hole. A lot of people lose their minds whilst they do so. Its like staring at the Sun.

Also I believe many people who begin to lose their minds happen upon statements like I've told about above. They enter places free from orthodox thinking, and these places seem to be full of intuitive philosophy.

I guess I believe that by making one relatively small mental adjustment, everything else sits together nicely in a personalised grand theory of everything. There is nothing that can't be explained logically from a fractal view point. Thats not to say I'm behaving like a bible basher 'God said its true so it is', not at all. Give me some random things (behaviors, technologies, natural objects) and I'll try and explain how that sits in my view.
t-l you have such good ideas and comments, but please beware of the extremes and take care to provide evidence. Power to you!
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trojan_libido
post Jan 21, 2009, 12:22 AM
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I have nothing so grand as evidence HH, only a multitude of coincidences that only mean something if you believe the symbols and art of humanity runs deeper than humanity itself...

I have the Eye of Horus tatooed on my chest, just a small 2 inch symbol on one peck. I got it because I love the Egyptian cosmology and religion. The Eye of Horus, in simple terms, means the Sun. This belief is something I can wholeheartedly get behind. I was taught about the absolute importance of that nuclear reaction in the sky. It is the Father to our world, it is not the absolute Father though, but it might as well be.

Someone once asked me if I practiced Egyptian religion...Hell No! How can you practice a religion when all we have are scraps of the truth, windows into the psychology of the Egyptian mind. Even if I knew the rituals, I wouldn't practice anything outwardly.

Now years later, Big Brother hits our screens on almost every continent. The eye symbol reappears with a show that I believe demonstrates the fractal nature I'm speaking about. You have people all around the world watching other people going stir crazy in a house. They are forcing cabin fever live for everyone to see. I believe its such a hit because people like to see others behave in similar ways to themselves, and this similarity affirms our own behaviours:

"I wish I'd never done that last night"
"Well I'm not the only one who is embarrassed after drinking too much" etc.

Regardless why, the show is a phenomenon. I see people watching people watching people. On the UK version last night, they had them acting out a 'Big Brother' movie. They had mini-me from Austin Powers directing and the people who are already being filmed, filming each other and acting, then watching it while we watch them film and watch the film.

At this point if you can't see how recursive this aspect of media has become, I guess you'll never really understand my point.

Now you get Celebrity Big Brother, again the Eye reappears but this time it has the inclusion of the five pointed star. It seems our culture uses the five pointed star/pentagram as a symbol for celebrity. The idea of 'Celebrity' is simply the focus of attention, or put another way, energy. Look at the introduction for all of these celebrity shows. If you don't see a five pointed Star I'd be very surprised.



Why is celebrity represented by a five pointed star? The image above is from 2007's version of BB. The Eye also has the appearance of a spiral within the design. This year the UK one is made up of a fractured mirror, another quite powerful addition to the eye.

When I see both the Star symbol and the Eye come together on the same program, then I see recursion like I've detailed above, I smile a wry smile because it makes perfect sense in a Fractal Universe.
Of course there will be those that don't think any of this important. I understand how looking for a pattern threaded through life may seem like mental instability, but we'll see what happens as we move forwards at ever increasing speeds into a world in which large transformative events are happening more and more frequently (CS, TS).
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Phi
post Jan 21, 2009, 03:51 AM
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I've always respected your words trojan...but you seem very skewed from the trojan that I know....I don't know why except that your tangents are guaged off of each other rather than the focus on a single point.

The 5 pointed star represents something simple...there are stars on the show! Big brother was the eye. You crazy cat...wtf are you talking about mang?

Hope everything feels balanced in your life tl
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trojan_libido
post Jan 21, 2009, 04:21 AM
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I appreciate that you and HH are worried about my mental state. I'm fine, I'm always in this observatory mood, just sometimes I just watch and other times I try and convey what I see. Often when I convey what I feel intuitively, it repulses people and they see me as some crazy dude. I feel its more crazy to ignore our predicament. Maybe I'm abnormal because I can think about human kind as a process, like scurrying ants displaying certain patterns.

I think I'm trying to expand on the concepts such as colour-to-feeling that we all seem to have built up (Red danger, Green safe etc.). These things have arrived culturally, and yet the reasons why are still valid areas of study.

I believe what comes into being in the world is important to understanding what being is in the first place. Because I see life as fractal, I expect to see these images come up again and again within culture. I believe a fractal Universe would gather complexity through recursion. I've demonstrated before why I feel the 5 pointed star embodies this recursion, but regardless as a concept the point is the first geometrical shape that embodies 'Phi' to an extraordinary level. This I believe is important to the recursion in the evolution of the Universe.

So when I see the Eye in Big Brothers logo, also including a 5 pointed star, and the content being very recursive by its very nature, it does resonate with me. Rightly or wrongly, it embodies the Zeitgeist.

If you had to look for evidence of a Fractal Universe within human culture (where evidence would surely show up), where would you look and how would you do your observations?

Because I truly believe the spiralling phenomenon within space could echo downwards through resonance and complexity to create tornados and even the structure of DNA here on Earth, I find a simple thing like the spiral within the hair on our head (which incidentally grows first) as very important. I see the hairs on our bodies correlating to the grass and trees on the Earth.

Again, I appreciate everyones worries. I've not seen any evidence that goes against a Fractal Universe, and many other noted scientists have made similar arguments a lot better and less directly than me. So for them its ok to talk about it from a scientific perspective, as long as they don't speak about our behaviours and things which really hit the concept home?

A Fractal Universe has by design some very awful and very cold thought processes involved with it. It is a little repulsive, it does cause negative responses. But please try and look at the concept with an open mind, because if its true, these apparent coincidental usages will become more and more commonplace as we move towards one or both of the Singularities.

My mind is in as much working order as it ever was. I am quite stable, have a new 6month old baby boy whose just excellent. I'm engaged, working, free of old problematic habits and generally loving life smile.gif

Look at the Universe and ask yoursefl how can it form without being a fractal process? Then take that answer and go looking for it.
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trojan_libido
post Jan 21, 2009, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE(Phi)
The 5 pointed star represents something simple...there are stars on the show! Big brother was the eye. You crazy cat...wtf are you talking about mang?
Why are celebrities called Stars? What is happening from an objective point of view when a celebrity gathers momentum and causes others to break down crying, fainting and clawing their way towards the star?

In the past the term "As above so below" was used a lot in esoteric circles. Doesn't this kind of acknowledge this fractal behaviour? Doesnt naming celebrities as stars have some kind of psychological importance?

Wheres Jung and Freud when you need them smile.gif

More studied men than me have wrote articles on it, all I'm doing is taking the idea as a possible truth and seeing if there is anything in everyday life to hint at it.

Below are two very important articles on this idea:
http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw/NOF.HTM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14200

QUOTE("From the first link")
Einstein once commented: "It has often happened in physics that an essential advance was achieved by carrying out a consistent analogy between apparently unrelated phenomena."

Given the strong stratification of the cosmological hierarchy, one at least has a very rudimentary self-similar organization: galactic "particles" are composed of stellar "particles", which are composed of atomic "particles." However, this essay proposes that there are more meaningful scaling relations among these "particles" that populate such enormously different size scales. Atoms have radii on the order of 10-8 cm while the typical radius for a star would be 5x109 cm. So we adopt 5x1017 as our tentative scaling factor for lengths, and call it K. Since space and time are treated nearly equivalently in relativistic physics, it will be assumed tentatively that K is also the appropriate scale factor for temporal "lengths."

A promising place to begin the search for self-similarity would be with the well-known analogy between atomic nuclei and neutron stars. In fact the latter have often been likened to "gigantic atomic nuclei." Atomic nuclei typically have radii on the order of 10-12 cm and multiplying that value by K gives an estimate on the order of 5 km for neutron star radii. Since neutron stars are believed to have radii of roughly 10 km, the first test of our approximate scaling relation is encouraging. Classical spin periods for atomic nuclei are on the order of 10-19 sec to 10-20 sec. Scaling these values by K gives expected spin periods for neutron stars on the order of 10-2 sec to 10-1 sec, which are nicely within the observed range of typical spin periods for neutron stars: 10-3 sec to 100 sec. Atomic nuclei also undergo vibrational oscillations with periods of roughly 10-22 sec to 10-21 sec. Do neutron stars oscillate with periods that are about K times longer? In fact, observed neutron star oscillations are in the range of 10-4 sec to 10-3 sec, which is in good agreement with our expectations.4 So for the case of atomic nuclei and neutron stars we find a fairly reasonable degree of self-similarity between the proposed analogues. Both involve extremely dense and rapidly spinning objects whose radii, rotational periods and oscillation periods scale by a factor of K, as expected.
...

POSSIBLE IMPLICATIONS OF COSMOLOGICAL SELF-SIMILARITY

If the dark matter is composed of ultra-compact stellar scale objects with a mass spectrum that is approximated by predictions of the self-similar hypothesis, then it would appear that discrete self-similarity is a newly identified global property of nature. This would certainly change our current understanding of the cosmos. Firstly it would provide a new approach toward a more unified understanding of nature, since cosmological self-similarity implies analogous physics on all observable scales. It would also imply that the usual assumption that the universal hierarchy has cutoffs at about our current observational limits, an assumption that has always seemed suspiciously anthropocentric, should be questioned. If cosmological self-similarity is verified, then it would seem more likely that additional scales underlie the atomic scale and encompass the galactic scale. According to the new paradigm the Big Bang does not involve the expansion of the entire universe, but rather just one metagalactic object with dimensions far exceeding our current observational limits. Also, a new fractal geometry of space-time-matter would appear to be called for.



The self-similar cosmological paradigm does not throw out well-tested fundamental physics such as quantum mechanics, general relativity or even the Big Bang approximation. Instead it views most of the current theories of atomic physics, stellar astronomy and cosmology as valuable approximations that can now be reinterpreted, refined and incorporated within the broader and more unified context of an unbounded fractal cosmos.



If microlensing experiments verify the unique predictions mentioned above, however, we would still be faced with some important and very difficult questions. How many scales are there in all, a finite number or "worlds within worlds" without end? How strong is the degree of self-similarity between analogues? Why is nature self-similar, and why are scales separated by a factor of about 5x1017? Like past discoveries, this one too would come wrapped in enigmas.


Some might argue that the self-similar cosmological paradigm is too fantastic to be true, that it is too speculative to deserve serious attention. But is it more fantastic or speculative than Alice In Wonderland theories like cosmic strings, shadow matter, Higgs bosons, the "many worlds" inter-pretation of quantum mechanics, etc. Probably not, if judged objectively, and at least the self-similar model can make definitive predictions and point to actual observational support. It is possible that nature really does involve the "worlds within worlds" structure of a fractal system. Certainly there is enough supporting evidence to warrant serious consideration of discrete cosmological self-similarity. And soon, via microlensing experiments, we will learn nature's own verdict on this hypothesis
Damn, seems the powers haven't copied correcly, either fix it yourself or read the original smile.gif
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trojan_libido
post Jan 29, 2009, 04:29 AM
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Forget religious scripture for a moment.

If we were in a Fractal Universe, it could explain how the same ideas are repeated in different cultures at different times. It would also explain how a collective unconcious could appear, because the biology dictates or guides the thoughts. This biological waveform we're currently at the crest of, has been littered with spiritual ideas that seem to now be more potent than ever BECAUSE of the science! This goes against the tranditional skeptic veiw of a 'God of the gaps'.

YinYang - duality, polarity, circuitry, morality, biology

The YinYang contains and idea of two opposing forces, constantly ebbing and flowing into each other. The idea behind it is that within each of the black/white divides, is the seed of the other (depicted as an eye).

The polarising of energy and matter within all branches of science agrees with the spiritual emblem. In fact many of sciences greatest achievements involve polarising smaller and smaller particles (binary, magnetic tapes and disks, quantum computing). Our electrical appliances all use this principal, and this is having a huge effect on our world, moreso than all the religious conflicts since time began.

The image of an Angel and Demon sitting on the shoulder whilst you make a decision is a familiar yet simplistic description of thought processes. These complex thought processes may have arisen from a process that was dualistic, in much the same way as the YinYang. If it wasn't a concept rooted in our global psychology, then the image of psychological duality wouldn't keep appearing within our media.

Then theres the visual likeness to sperm, and the illusion of movement which the image seems to convey - two complimentary entwined ropes (extrapolated from the eyes of Yin and Yang)...

The Caduceus - Serpent myths, conciousness, shamanism, medicine

The image of the serpent either entwined around a rod, or with a second serpent, has been seen the world over in many ages. In my local history museum they have a viking shield with a variation of the emblem on it.

Kundalini is a concept of spiritual serpentine energy, starting in the groin and spiralling upwards around the spine, before it reaches the Third Eye chakra which apparently leads to spiritual enlightenment.

In Egypt the Pharoahs wore the serpent directly on this Third Eye. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uraeus

In India the idea is honored with the Bindi, often a Red circle placed in the centre of the forehead. It honours the creative energies of the Universe

The honoring of the Third Eye, or conciousness and the connection to something larger through meditation or spiritual rapture, has been clearly spoken about Aeons before biology could pin point the source.

The position of the Third Eye is exactly in line with the pineal gland. This gland is responsible for the production of melatonin (sleep hormone) amongst other things (DMT etc.). The organ is light sensitive, although in Humans it has evolved to be part of the bodies biological clock and not directly exposed to light. In other species the pineal is still used as an actual light sensitive eye.

How can the ancients have been so exact in the idea behind the Third Eye, and their placement of it? I'd like to hear a valid idea proposed, while I myself find that a Fractal Universe almost predicts these kind of events.

The shamanic ideas come from a merging of the World Tree symbol with the World Serpent. The two serpents rising up the staff are a symbol of conciousness rising up the World Tree. A familiar image seen commonly within the medical communitys badges and flags. The image and the idea are seperate entities, but they both speak of the same thing. Rising conciousness!

Repeating image

I believe the traditional red dot worn by Hindus marking the position of the Third Eye comes from a collective unconsious which itself comes from the process that evolve the biology to conciousness. A Fractal Universe bubbling images to the subconcious mind. When two significant spiritual logos are so much like DNA, in appearance and symbolism, and the shape of DNA only being seen thousands of years after those logos, I have to believe there is more than co-incidences at work.

Now in a modern world of technology constantly increasing in speed and capacity, we see the symbol was chosen to represent RECORD. Replicating reality, highlighting the process of mass-production, and continuing the strange phenomenon of coincidence which may well be a hint to a real collective unconcious and the Fractal process that led to conciousness itself. I wonder who made the decision about what symbols to use for what purpose, and whether it was guided by intuitive artistic abilities, or whether a meeeting was called with a panel of businessmen.
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Hey Hey
post Jan 29, 2009, 07:36 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Jan 29, 2009, 12:29 PM) *
This biological waveform we're currently at the crest of, has been littered with spiritual ideas that seem to now be more potent than ever BECAUSE of the science!
What's a biological waveform? blink.gif Hairstyle after a perm? wink.gif
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trojan_libido
post Jan 29, 2009, 08:27 AM
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Its the crest of the wave of life on this planet, and we're currently at the top.

Yeah its me, crazy as a shit house rat as always smile.gif

On the plus side, I just bought a broken house for very cheap. Now I just need some out of work builders...
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post Feb 04, 2009, 08:41 AM
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Holographic Universe: Discovery Could Herald New Era In Fundamental Physics:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90203130708.htm
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post Feb 04, 2009, 09:07 AM
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I am of the current thought that the universe is fractal on an informational level similar to how DNA is encoded in all of our cells. I think there may be a "cosmic DNA" as one of my students recently remarked while we were discussing the topic. Information seems encoded at every level of reality and may ultimately refer back to the Cosmic Whole.
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post Feb 04, 2009, 01:31 PM
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How accurate does a fractal have to be? I mean, DNA is not actually accurately fractal due to the variation in the bases. Then again, most fractals are not very accurate. So, is it just a phenomenon that suits the fuzzy observations of humans? Thus, is it really a meaningless concept?
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Rick
post Feb 04, 2009, 01:38 PM
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The Mandelbrot set and other fractals are more compactly described by their production rules. Similarly with life forms: the DNA represents a base 4 number, a single point in a set of integers. Very simple, ultimately.
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post Feb 04, 2009, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 04, 2009, 09:38 PM) *

The Mandelbrot set and other fractals are more compactly described by their production rules. Similarly with life forms: the DNA represents a base 4 number, a single point in a set of integers. Very simple, ultimately.
But it is the "essence" of self-similarity, rather than precision engineering (natural or man-made). So really, they are arbitrarily similar. For example, a DNA strand could have bases that are AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA or ATCGATGCACTGTTAGCA at any point - far from fractal, but zoom out, zoom out, zoom out and one gets a double helix with indiscernible bases, and a structure that looks like a fractal.
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Rick
post Feb 04, 2009, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Feb 04, 2009, 01:48 PM) *
... a structure that looks like a fractal.

Not really. Close up we see molecules. Further out we see a helix. Further out we see chromosomes. Further out we see a nucleus. Further out we see a cell, then an organ, then an organism, then a society. These things are not self-similar. The universe is not like a fractal.
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trojan_libido
post Feb 05, 2009, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE
Not really. Close up we see molecules. Further out we see a helix. Further out we see chromosomes. Further out we see a nucleus. Further out we see a cell, then an organ, then an organism, then a society. These things are not self-similar.


If you look at the mandelbrot set though, which I'm sure you know all about, the main theme (the ink blot insect like thing) is repeated at various places and magnifications. A true fractal is self similar, but every view is different and contains variation.

Isn't variation also a property of the Universe?
QUOTE
The universe is not like a fractal.
Well many men more learned than me think otherwise (not too hard to be more learned than me!).

Its been proven that we copy at a really low level. This copying creates society, we fill our boots by seeing how others filled theirs! Its impossible to have identical scenarios, the time and place, and therefore the viewpoint and related expressions are all variations.

Language is organic, its grown into whatever area we focus on. Add a new member of staff to a department or a kid to a school class. You'll see them begin to use the localised language, by trying to fit in they facilitate the organic nature of language.

The hair on our body is like the trees and grass on the Earth. Organisms are on us and within us. Theres no niche in the Universe that isn't being filled by the transformative process that the Universe began.

Images keep appearing across time and in isolated places. The concept of collective unconcious come about because of our shared body shape and origin. Two strangers come together because of an emotional draw to procreate. A child is born by growing inside and coming out of the mother. The offspring is a genetic merger of both parents, and yet it still has its own perceptions and experience. This is entirely self similar, and yet still has a place for variation.

The variations are what make the Universe possible. Without variation theres only stillness and we all know the Universe is just not like that.

Its easy to identify fractal features within plants. They are self-similar and contain very strong symmetry. Seeing ourselves as an extension of a fractal process means we have to leave our arrogance at the door.

Its ok to not like the idea. I didn't myself at first, but its the only thing that makes sense. One evolving process gaining complexity. If you don't believe that then you're reduced to options that must have an Intelligent Designer, making adjustments and 'variations'.
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Phi
post Feb 05, 2009, 12:40 AM
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I like this one:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ron_egl...n_fractals.html
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trojan_libido
post Feb 05, 2009, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE(wiki)
Ron Eglash (born December 25, 1958 in Chestertown, MD) is an American cyberneticist, university professor, and author widely known for his work in the field of ethnomathematics, which aims to study the diverse relationships between math and culture. His research includes the use of fractal patterns in African architecture, art, and religion, and the relationships between indigenous cultures and modern technology, such as that between Native American cultural and spiritual practices and cybernetics.
I shall give what you've posted a watch when I get on a non-nannied pc.

I believe the fractal patterns within things like villages and building placement can't be put down to third world people deciding to use fractals in their building.

So whats left is either a maths dude looking far too hard at proving his point OR the fractal patterns arise due to our group behaviour and the collective unconcious.

If the Universe was fractal, these results would literally be expected.
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trojan_libido
post Feb 05, 2009, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Feb 04, 2009, 05:07 PM) *
I am of the current thought that the universe is fractal on an informational level similar to how DNA is encoded in all of our cells. I think there may be a "cosmic DNA" as one of my students recently remarked while we were discussing the topic. Information seems encoded at every level of reality and may ultimately refer back to the Cosmic Whole.
When you begin to come up with ideas of 'cosmic DNA', then you are talking about everything being of the same evolutionary path and of DNA evolving from the Universal process. This is an acknowledgement of the concept. But people seem to have difficulty accepting any projections based on that sound idea. There must be repeating patterns in the Universe, and there are visible (tornado, whirlpools, galaxy formation) and invisible ones (physical and mathematical laws).

Example: The effect of gravity is stable, but it effects things differently depending on the scale we're talking about. Sub Atomic particles react differently than Stars. In response to Rick - this is how something that never changes can give rise to infinite variations (probably infinite wink.gif ).

When I make statements like a 'Fractal Universe' or go on about the 'Golden Ratio' in nature, I'm well aware that there are many many examples where the leap seems extraordinary. I assume that people will realise that our world is filled with so much variation that the ideas are only statistically significant, and not every case.

Theres a statistically significant proportion of plants that show five-fold symmetry in their flowers. This may be important, but its equally important that variation exists and is never ignored.
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GodConsciousness
post Feb 05, 2009, 06:50 AM
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I guess my questions in response are: In what senses is the fractal of the universe becoming more complex? Is the complexity already implicit? Is the universe unraveling the complexity of the fractal through evolution?
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trojan_libido
post Feb 05, 2009, 07:09 AM
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Well I believe the Universe has to have balance. As everything continues to move away from everything else in space, the populated Earth (our only real comparison) is becoming more and more complex. At first it was biology, with single cells moving up to invertebrates, then mammals and eventually humans. Evolution is the fractal, continually transforming. But this biological complexity is only half the story, because culturally we've become extremely complex in our interactions.

Example: Primitive animals evolve colour schemes to attract mates. Now we've left the realm of biological evolution, we can design and wear any colour clothes we like. That was the past, in the present we are able to have surgery to change our physical bodies, have IVF to have kids, choose the sex and eye colour of our child. Its this progressive concept that I believe is the most compelling evidence of a Fractal Universe.

Its as if our culture is folding in on itself with the new abilities. We're almost out of useable land - not a problem, online worlds with valuable real-estate now fits inside a single hard drive, virtually ending the need for physical space. The information available to every individual online means that you can have instant knowledge on a subject, which means individuals can pursue whatever they desire from the comfort of their living rooms. The actual impact on society will never be fully appreciate until we ourselves reach retirement age and think back. The impact of the TV is never really appreciated now, because its the norm.

Now in an age where we have instant global communication (Gaia becoming more sentient) and instant gratification (maybe due to an approaching Consciousness/Technological Singularity), we've created a world where we lack the basic skills or abilities to fend for ourselves.

We've built a paper castle. Everyone knows little pieces, and the basics are almost lost. Imagine if you live in a built up residential region, and the food supply fails (supermarkets empty). Where would you go for food? Hunting in the meagre forests that are probably 20-200+ miles away?

How about if you work in a TV factory and the world suffers a cosmic EMP pulse that destroys most of our technologies. You probably know about 1-5% of what is required to actually build a TV from scratch let alone a TV station and cameras. Paper castles...

All the while our Universe is rapidly moving apart, creating more lightyears of silence between systems. Its sticking a finger up to our hope of ever reaching other star systems! Our fate may well be to stay here and live in the bed we've created, because anything else is simply impossible. What a sad thought. sad.gif
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post Feb 05, 2009, 08:35 AM
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Facing reality with courage is a sign of maturity.
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