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> Is the universe deterministic?
GodConsciousness
post Jun 20, 2009, 05:17 AM
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A thought that has recently crept into my mind pertains to the possible determinism of the universe. I am reminded of Aristotle's distinctions between potentiality and actuality in this vein. Like an acorn that eventually develops into an oak tree, is the universe developing into something that was predetermined from the beginning?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that the big bang theory of the universe is in broad outline correct. If the potential for the universe existed at the beginning or big bang, does that suggest the entire future of the universe could have been predicted if we understood the potential of initial particles?
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Phi
post Jun 20, 2009, 05:34 AM
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I would say that the only thing determinable was infinity....
Now for the big bang part...I see this analogy in the terms of what we can control:
ants:humans as for humans:universe

that would lead me to say that I don't think that's in our range....but either way...it would seem that the paths would be different from different setpoints.............but the range is infinite.........and that reminds me of something that some authors think: its not about the end, but about the journey. Whether or not things are different, the opportunities relate in the fact of choice in that specific existence.

Some acorns don't grow...some grow larger than others, some get put on a mantle. Those are things that the acorns can't control.....luckily we got to exist in the part of the big bang where we have choices
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rudolfhendriques
post Jun 20, 2009, 05:38 AM
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QUOTE(Phi @ Jun 20, 2009, 05:34 AM) *

I would say that the only thing determinable was infinity....
Now for the big bang part...I see this analogy in the terms of what we can control:
ants:humans as for humans:universe

that would lead me to say that I don't think that's in our range....but either way...it would seem that the paths would be different from different setpoints.............but the range is infinite.........and that reminds me of something that some authors think: its not about the end, but about the journey. Whether or not things are different, the opportunities relate in the fact of choice in that specific existence.

Some acorns don't grow...some grow larger than others, some get put on a mantle. Those are things that the acorns can't control.....luckily we got to exist in the part of the big bang where we have choices



Remember that our own consciousness is the real edge of the universe, and you will find yourself back in time/space...
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GodConsciousness
post Jun 20, 2009, 05:41 AM
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QUOTE(Phi @ Jun 20, 2009, 09:34 AM) *

Some acorns don't grow...some grow larger than others, some get put on a mantle. Those are things that the acorns can't control.....luckily we got to exist in the part of the big bang where we have choices


As I was discussing in another thread, our true range of 'choices' seems quite limited when we account for genetics, neurobiology, and the environment. Who makes the choices? Me or my biological brain?
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Phi
post Jun 20, 2009, 05:45 AM
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it doesnt matter, you are set in whatever. there are still choices within....an infinite number to be exact. How could one not be satisfied with that?

When one compares their setpoint to another persons setpoint...the idea is entirely ridiculous. Combine them and create something better
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GodConsciousness
post Jun 20, 2009, 05:52 AM
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QUOTE(Phi @ Jun 20, 2009, 09:45 AM) *

it doesnt matter, you are set in whatever. there are still choices within....an infinite number to be exact. How could one not be satisfied with that?

When one compares their setpoint to another persons setpoint...the idea is entirely ridiculous. Combine them and create something better


There still seem to be biological constraints to free will and perhaps most notably in neurobiology. Research into Alzheimer's, Schizophrenia and other types of neurological conditions suggest that free will may be an illusion. A person with alzheimer's doesn't have the same range of choices- nor does a baby for that matter. When does the infinite range of choices actually exist? Does it presuppose certain neurobiological conditions?
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P.j.S
post Jun 20, 2009, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Jun 20, 2009, 05:52 AM) *

QUOTE(Phi @ Jun 20, 2009, 09:45 AM) *

it doesnt matter, you are set in whatever. there are still choices within....an infinite number to be exact. How could one not be satisfied with that?

When one compares their setpoint to another persons setpoint...the idea is entirely ridiculous. Combine them and create something better


There still seem to be biological constraints to free will and perhaps most notably in neurobiology. Research into Alzheimer's, Schizophrenia and other types of neurological conditions suggest that free will may be an illusion. A person with alzheimer's doesn't have the same range of choices- nor does a baby for that matter. When does the infinite range of choices actually exist? Does it presuppose certain neurobiological conditions?

The infinite range of choice as far as exploratory thought and personal theories go is right now. But it can only go to the point where mathematically infinity is resting because the Person of God isn't making anything new right now and for pretty good reasons too.

So from within the range of knowledge now a person can make choices of what to study or not. But the corrupt state that we are in can determine our memory capacity. Everyone created probably was meant to have a long lasting memory. We may not even be using 1/10th of our brain presently. We know that we have the potential to enjoy a much longer life.

People can choose to use their photograghic memory and study thousands of digits of pi. (do you think that is funny? What if the Quantum computer crashes and you need the most pi digits that you can get to help fix it! It would take a person who had studied that to be a serious back-up for the computer. just imagining!) At any rate a person with Alzheimer's may want to choose to recite pi digits but could only be able to recite a few now do to memory loss. 3.1415926... That may be enough to jump start the quantum computer if aliens snatched pi out of everyone elses brain but the person in question by oversight. Moral: what these individuals can still remember is probably still very important somehow to us all.

So choice is there. Particularly at infinity rest (mathematically speaking) the issue of one's own personal life lastingly or not with God. Will I get involved with learning more about how I could even get to live forever? Yes/No.
And what can be learned and retained about that issue with the present state of corrupt minds that we have now.

Suggestion:why not read to hospitalized people from God's Word the Bible? Those who wouldn't mind of course. The comfort from the God of all Comfort found in the Scriptures may be good positive medicine for us all.

Encouraging material to contemplate found here in the first post of this thread found on this site:
Philosophy, Truth, History, & Politics : Theology : What is God? :
What God is is a Title? Then who is God?

P.j.S : PJS : P.J.S.
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Joesus
post Jun 20, 2009, 02:07 PM
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The Ocean of Theosophy by William Q. Judge
Chapter 14
Cycles

The doctrine of Cycles is one of the most important in the whole theosophical system, though the least known and of all the one most infrequently referred to. Western investigators have for some centuries suspected that events move in cycles, and a few of the writers in the field of European literature have dealt with the subject, but all in a very incomplete fashion. This incompleteness and want of accurate knowledge have been due to the lack of belief in spiritual things and the desire to square everything with materialistic science. Nor do I pretend to give the cyclic law in full, for it is one that is not given out in detail by the Masters of Wisdom. But enough has been divulged, and enough was for a long time known to the Ancients to add considerably to our knowledge.

A cycle is a ring or turning, as the derivation of the word indicates. The corresponding words in the Sanskrit are Yuga, Kalpa, Manvantara, but of these yuga comes nearest to cycle, as it is lesser in duration than the others. The beginning of a cycle must be a moment, that added to other moments makes a day, and those added together constitute months, years, decades, and centuries. Beyond this the West hardly goes. It recognizes the moon cycle and the great sidereal one, but looks at both and upon the others merely as periods of time. If we are to consider them as but lengths of time there is no profit except to the dry student or to the astronomer. And in this way today they are regarded by European and American thinkers, who say cycles exist but have no very great bearing on human life and certainly no bearing on the actual recurrence of events or the reappearance on the stage of life of persons who once lived in the world. The theosophical theory is distinctly otherwise, as it must be if it carries out the doctrine of reincarnation to which in preceding pages a good deal of attention has been given. Not only are the cycles named actual physical facts in respect to time, but they and other periods have a very great effect on human life and the evolution of the globe with all the forms of life thereon. Starting with the moment and proceeding through a day, this theory erects the cycle into a comprehensive ring which includes all in its limits. The moment being the basis, the question to be settled in respect to the great cycles is, When did the first moment come? This cannot be answered, but it can be said that the truth is held by the ancient theosophists to be that at the first moments of the solidification of this globe the mass of matter involved attained a certain and definite rate of vibration which will hold through all variations in any part of it until its hour for dissolution comes. These rates of vibration are what determine the different cycles, and, contrary to the ideas of western science, the doctrine is that the solar system and the globe we are now on will come to an end when the force behind the whole mass of seen and unseen matter has reached its limit of duration under cyclic law. Here our doctrine is again different from both the religious and scientific one. We do not admit that the ending of the force is the withdrawal by a God of his protection, nor the sudden propulsion by him of another force against the globe, but that the force at work and determining the great cycle is that of man himself considered as a spiritual being; when he is done using the globe he leaves it, and then with him goes out the force holding all together; the consequence is dissolution by fire or water or what not, these phenomena being simply effects and not causes. The ordinary scientific speculations on this head are that the earth may fall into the sun, or that a comet of density may destroy the globe, or that we may collide with a greater planet known or unknown. These dreams are idle for the present.

Reincarnation being the great law of life and progress, it is interwoven with that of the cycles and karma. These three work together, and in practice it is almost impossible to disentangle reincarnation from cyclic law. Individuals and nations in definite streams return in regularly recurring periods to the earth, and thus bring back to the globe the arts, the civilization, the very persons who once were on it at work. And as the units in nation and race are connected together by invisible strong threads, large bodies of such units moving slowly but surely all together reunite at different times and emerge again and again together into new race and new civilization as the cycles roll their appointed rounds. Therefore the souls who made the most ancient civilizations will come back and bring the old civilization with them in idea and essence, which being added to what others have done for the development of the human race in its character and knowledge will produce a new and higher state of civilization. This newer and better development will not be due to books, to records, to arts or mechanics, because all those are periodically destroyed so far as physical evidence goes, but the soul ever retaining in Manas the knowledge it once gained and always pushing to completer development the higher principles and powers, the essence of progress remains and will as surely come out as the sun shines. And along this road are the points when the small and large cycles of Avatars bring out for man's benefit the great characters who mold the race from time to time.

The Cycle of Avatars includes several smaller ones. The greater are those marked by the appearance of Rama and Krishna among the Hindus, of Menes among the Egyptians, of Zoroaster among the Persians, and of Buddha to the Hindus and other nations of the East. Buddha is the last of the great Avatars and is in a larger cycle than is Jesus of the Jews, for the teachings of the latter are the same as those of Buddha and tinctured with what Buddha had taught to those who instructed Jesus. Another great Avatar is yet to come, corresponding to Buddha and Krishna combined. Krishna and Rama were of the military, civil, religious, and occult order; Buddha of the ethical, religious, and mystical, in which be was followed by Jesus; Mohammed was a minor intermediate one for a certain part of the race, and was civil, military, and religious. In these cycles we can include mixed characters who have had great influence on nations, such as King Arthur, Pharaoh, Moses, Charlemagne reincarnated as Napoleon Bonaparte, Clovis of France reborn as Emperor Frederic III of Germany, and Washington the first President of the United States of America where the root for the new race is being formed.

At the intersection of the great cycles dynamic effects follow and alter the surface of the planet by reason of the shifting of the poles of the globe or other convulsion. This is not a theory generally acceptable, but we hold it to be true. Man is a great dynamo, making, storing, and throwing out energy, and when masses of men composing a race thus make and distribute energy, there is a resulting dynamic effect on the material of the globe which will be powerful enough to be distinct and cataclysmic. That there have been vast and awful disturbances in the strata of the world is admitted on every hand and now needs no proof; these have been due to earthquakes and ice formation so far as concerns geology; but in respect to animal forms the cyclic law is that certain animal forms now extinct and also certain human ones not known but sometimes suspected will return again in their own cycle; and certain human languages now known as dead will be in use once more at their appointed cyclic hour.

"The Metonic cycle is that of the Moon. It is a period of about nineteen years, which being completed the new and the full moons return on the same days of the month."

"The cycle of the Sun is a period of twenty eight years, which having elapsed the Dominical or Sunday letters return to their former place and proceed in the former order according to the Julian calendar."

The great Sidereal year is the period taken by the equinoctial points to make in their precession a complete revolution of the heavens. It is composed of 25,868 solar years almost. It is said that the last sidereal year ended about 9,868 years ago, at which time there must have been on this earth a violent convulsion or series of such, as well as distributions of nations. The completion of this grand period brings the earth into newer spaces of the cosmos, not in respect to its own orbit, but by reason of the actual progress of the sun in an orbit of its own that cannot be measured by any observer of the present day, but which is guessed at by some and located in one of the constellations.

Affecting man especially are the spiritual, psychic, and moral cycles, and out of these grow the national, racial, and individual cycles. Race and national cycles are both historical. The individual cycles are of reincarnation, of sensation, and of impression. The length of the individual reincarnation cycle for the general mass of men is fifteen hundred years, and this in its turn gives us a large historical cycle related closely to the progress of civilization. For as the masses of persons return from devachan, it must follow that the Roman, the Greek, the old Aryan, and other Ages will be seen again and can to a very great extent be plainly traced. But man is also affected by astronomical cycles because he is an integral part of the whole, and these cycles mark the periods when mankind as a whole will undergo a change. In the sacred books of all nations these are often mentioned, and are in the Bible of the Christians, as, for instance, in the story of Jonah in the belly of the whale. This is an absurdity when read as history, but not so as an astronomical cycle. "Jonah" is in the constellations, and when that astronomical point which represents man reaches a point in the Zodiac which is directly opposite the belly of Cetus or the whale on the other side of the circle, by what is known as the process of opposition, then Jonah is said to be in the center of the fish and is "thrown out" at the expiration of the period when that man-point has passed so far along in the Zodiac as to be out of opposition to the whale. Similarly as the same point moves thus through the Zodiac it is brought by opposition into the different constellations that are exactly opposite from century to century while it moves along. During these progresses changes take place among men and on earth exactly signified by the constellations when those are read according to the right rules of symbology. It is not claimed that the conjunction causes the effect, but that ages ago the Masters of Wisdom worked out all the problems in respect to man and found in the heavens the means for knowing the exact dates when events are sure to recur, and then by imprinting in the minds of older nations the symbology of the Zodiac were able to preserve the record and the prophecy. Thus in the same way that a watchmaker can tell the hour by the arrival of the hands or the works of the watch at certain fixed points, the Sages can tell the hour for events by the Zodiacal clock. This is not of course believed today, but it will be well understood in future centuries, and as the nations of the earth have all similar symbols in general for the Zodiac, and as also the records of races long dead have the same, it is not likely that the vandal-spirit of the western nineteenth century will be able to efface this valuable heritage of our evolution. In Egypt the Denderah Zodiac tells the same tale as that one left to us by the old civilization of the American continent, and all of these are from the same source, they are the work of the Sages who come at the beginning of the great human cycle and give to man when he begins his toilsome ascent up the road of development those great symbols and ideas of an astronomical character which will last through all the cycles.

In regard to great cataclysms occurring at the beginning and ending of the great cycles, the main laws governing the effects are those of Karma and Reimbodiment, or Reincarnation, proceeding under cyclic rule. Not only is man ruled by these laws, but every atom of matter as well, and the mass of matter is constantly undergoing a change at the same time with man. It must therefore exhibit alterations corresponding to those through which the thinker is going. On the physical plane effects are brought out through the electrical and other fluids acting with the gases on the solids of the globe. At the change of a great cycle they reach what may be termed the exploding point and cause violent convulsions of the following classes: Earthquakes, Floods, Fire, Ice.

Earthquakes may be brought on according to this philosophy by two general causes; first, subsidence or elevation under the earth-crust due to heat and steam, second, electrical and magnetic changes which affect water and earth at the same time. These last have the power to instantaneously make the earth fluidic without melting it, thus causing immense and violent displacements in large or small waves. And this effect is sometimes seen now in earthquake districts when similar electrical causes are at work in a smaller measure.

Floods of general extent are caused by displacement of water from the subsidence or elevation of land, and by those combined with electrical change which induces a copious discharge of moisture. The latter is not a mere emptying of a cloud, but a sudden turning of vast bodies of fluids and solids into water.

Universal fires come on from electrical and magnetic changes in the atmosphere by which the moisture is withdrawn from the air and the latter turned into a fiery mass; and, secondly, by the sudden expansion of the solar magnetic center into seven such centers, thus burning the globe.

Ice cataclysms come on not only from the sudden alteration of the poles but also from lowered temperature due to the alteration of the warm fluid currents in the sea and the hot magnetic currents in the earth, the first being known to science, the latter not. The lower stratum of moisture is suddenly frozen, and vast tracts of land covered in a night with many feet of ice. This can easily happen to the British Isles if the warm currents of the ocean are diverted from its shores.

Both Egyptians and Greeks had their cycles, but in our opinion derived them from the Indian Sages. The Chinese always were a nation of astronomers, and have recorded observations reaching far back of the Christian era, but as they belong to an old race which is doomed to extinction -- strange as the assertion may appear -- their conclusions will not be correct for the Aryan races. On the coming of the Christian era a heavy pall of darkness fell on the minds of men in the West, and India was for many centuries isolated so as to preserve these great ideas during the mental night of Europe. This isolation was brought about deliberately as a necessary precaution taken by that great Lodge to which I adverted in Chapter I, because its Adepts, knowing the cyclic laws perfectly, wished to preserve philosophy for future generations. As it would be mere pedantry and speculation to discuss the unknown Saros and Naros and other cycles of the Egyptians, I will give the Brahmanical ones, since they tally almost exactly with the correct periods.

A period or exhibition of universal manifestation is called a Brahmarandrha [in The Path, Nov., 1893, p. 259, Judge points out that this is a misprint for Brahmanda., that is a complete life of Brahma, and Brahma's life is made of his days and years, which, being cosmical are each of immense duration. His day is as man's 24 odd hours long, his year 360 odd days, the number of his years is 100.

Taking now this globe -- since we are concerned with no other -- its government and evolution proceed under Manu or man and from this is the term Manvantara or "between two Manus." The course of evolution is divided into four Yugas for every race in its own time and way. These Yugas do not affect all mankind at one and the same time, as some races are in one of the Yugas while others are in a different cycle. The Red Indian, for instance, is in the end of his stone age, while the Aryans are in quite a different state. These four Yugas are: Krita, or Satya, the golden; Treta; Dvapara; and Kali or the black. The present age for the West and India is Kali Yuga, especially in respect to moral and spiritual development. The first of these is slow in comparison with the rest, and the present -- Kali -- is very rapid, its motion being accelerated precisely like certain astronomical periods known today in regard to the Moon, but not fully worked out.

TABLE ---------------------------------------------------- Mortal Years

* 360 (odd) mortal days make ----------------------------------- 1
* Krita Yuga has ----------------------------------------- 1,728,000
* Treta Yuga has ----------------------------------------- 1,296,000
* Dvapara Yuga has --------------------------------------- 864,000
* Kali Yuga has -------------------------------------------- 432,000
* Maha Yuga, or the four preceding, has ------------------ 4,320,000
* 71 Maha Yugas form the reign of one Manu, or ------- 306,720,000
* 14 Manus are --------------------------------------- 4,294,080,000
* Add the dawns or twilights between each Manu -- 25,920,000
* These reigns and dawns make 1000 Maha Yugas, a Kalpa, or Day of Brahma --4,320,000,000
* Brahma's Night equals his Day and Night together make -- 8,640,000,000
* 360 of these Days make Brahma's Year ---- 3,110,400,000,000
* 100 of these Years make Brahma's Life -- 311,040,000,000,000

The first 5000 years of Kali Yuga will end between the years 1897 and 1898. This Yuga began about 3102 years before the Christian era, at the time of Krishna's death. As 1897-98 are not far off, the scientific men of today will have an opportunity of seeing whether the close of the five thousand year cycle will be preceded or followed by any convulsions or great changes political, scientific, or physical, or all of these combined. Cyclic changes are now proceeding as year after year the souls from prior civilizations are being incarnated in this period when liberty of thought and action are not so restricted in the West as they have been in the past by dogmatic religious prejudice and bigotry. And at the present time we are in a cycle of transition, when, as a transition period should indicate, everything in philosophy, religion, and society is changing. In a transition period the full and complete figures and rules respecting cycles are not given out to a generation which elevates money above all thoughts and scoffs at the spiritual view of man and nature.
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P.j.S
post Jun 20, 2009, 03:47 PM
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Life started with time counting backward> 1 B.C.E > 1 C.E. onward to 1898.
Where does a cycle start in time? How many years backward from <1 B>C>E that way and how many years forward? To 1 C>E> that way? Does it divide evenly into two?

For eg. 4320000000 / 2 = 1/2 < this way ! BCE and 1/2 > this way 1 CE counting in time do you know haow many years to count backwards before it cycles again?

1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 BCE > forward time 1 CE 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 > then what? 1 CE again? The year is 2009 now how much further does it go before counting backwards again in this cycle?

Surely such reincarnated ones would have this information at the ready if they have lived through it. 4320000000 yrs is a loy of time for an immortal soul to know things.
People are interested each year when the daylight saving hours are turned back and forth. Why not know when 2009 needs to be counted backwards now. What do you say Joesus?

what is the cycle of years?
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Joesus
post Jun 20, 2009, 05:42 PM
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I'd say you have a determined imagination to make things fit according to what you believe rather than expanding upon it.
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P.j.S
post Jun 21, 2009, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Jun 20, 2009, 05:42 PM) *

I'd say you have a determined imagination to make things fit according to what you believe rather than expanding upon it.

Is that worse than saying things that do not fit? Where are Moses bones?
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Joesus
post Jun 21, 2009, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE(P.j.S @ Jun 22, 2009, 01:37 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Jun 20, 2009, 05:42 PM) *

I'd say you have a determined imagination to make things fit according to what you believe rather than expanding upon it.

Is that worse than saying things that do not fit? Where are Moses bones?

Maybe not worse..you are consistent in being reference idealized according to what someone else has told you in your best guess of what you think you remember.
By the way is someone looking for Moses' bones, or any of the disciples or prophets of the past? What would be the point?
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catseye
post Jun 21, 2009, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Jun 20, 2009, 06:52 AM) *

QUOTE(Phi @ Jun 20, 2009, 09:45 AM) *

it doesnt matter, you are set in whatever. there are still choices within....an infinite number to be exact. How could one not be satisfied with that?

When one compares their setpoint to another persons setpoint...the idea is entirely ridiculous. Combine them and create something better


There still seem to be biological constraints to free will and perhaps most notably in neurobiology. Research into Alzheimer's, Schizophrenia and other types of neurological conditions suggest that free will may be an illusion. A person with alzheimer's doesn't have the same range of choices- nor does a baby for that matter. When does the infinite range of choices actually exist? Does it presuppose certain neurobiological conditions?



These are really good questions and set my mind racing in all directions of creative thought.
I would have to agree that neurobiological conditions are paramount to choice. Whether or not we view our existence in the spiritual sense of choice or just the human condition, we are subject to the same answer. If we are born to a condition that withholds any ability we are in a parameter of limitation. Is the universe set the same way or builds the same- again yes, galaxies live and die and others don't form with the "normal" structure to endure/grow, for more/healthy than the average of others.
I see it all as one organism yet in the function as a individual with individuals within. The picture/example I have in my mind is that all our neurons had a separate "life" yet still lived within us as a whole,
-than I can see the universe expanding with this idea.
Even still there is "choice" but how do we judge who or what is normal to have the greatest amount of choice or ability. We have so many examples in history of those that had very little choice in the physical sense such as Steven Hawkins, he had very little choice physically yet brilliance of mind. And then there is the lady that had alzheimer's and had very little choice mentally yet made artwork that was breath-taking. Even though she could no longer speak or recognize her children she created work that touched the depth of communicating how she adored togetherness with those she loved.

Spinning around in my thoughts with this: I am reminded inside of when I first became aware of myself, it's some thing I never forgot.
I was almost 4 yrs old and sat up in my bed one night when everyone was asleep and just said out loud to myself "I'm me" over and over again. I don't think I could explain in detail the feeling but I was exuberant, it felt like I woke up, but yet was awake. The dawning of consciousness.

Great subject!
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maximus242
post Jun 22, 2009, 06:47 AM
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This subject has been beaten to death on this forum a thousand times. It comes down to this.

Determinism: If you can know the position of all atoms in all places at the same time then you could calculate their relative actions and reactions to come up with what would happen next. Since the universe is governed by universal laws then this means that all things react the same way in the same situation with the same variables on the atomic level.

Given this, one can predict what happens and therefore the universe is deterministic

Free Will: The universe is not as black and white as it seems and there are random elements within the universe which are not predetermined by intra-atomic interactions but are instead self contained in their own realitivistic randomness and therefore there are some things in this universe which cannot be predicted on such a massive scale.

Furthermore, whether or not there is a definite 'free will' one should still believe in it because if the universe is deterministic it makes no difference anyways and there is no reason to have this argument.

The key scientific argument in freewill is randomness, key scientific argument in determinism is laws of physics. If you ask me, living life under determinism is a miserable existance, so whether it exists or not, im living a life of free will.
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GodConsciousness
post Jun 22, 2009, 07:13 AM
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Free will may be designed into a deterministic universe, but there are definitely constraints and neurobiological issues to keep in mind.

One of the areas I find the neurobiological end of things particularly problematic is in the case of justice. Our actions are products of a diverse array of competing factors and influences including our own brains. Most justice systems are based on the concept of free will. However, it may not necessarily be the will of the person or criminal that needs to be addressed, but their biological brains and perhaps even their genetics. I sense that neurobiology, genetics, and environmental factors are underestimated in virtually every legal system throughout the world. Our sense of justice and law needs to keep pace with modern science.
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maximus242
post Jun 22, 2009, 07:29 AM
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Or overestimated.

In Provocative Therapy it shows from 20 years of clinical experience with insane patients, that the vast majority of people are simply pretending to be insane, whether it be for the hotel like living conditions, not having to work, the attention, the freedom to do whatever they like without responsibility for their own actions -- most people who say insane bullshit do not really even believe it themselves.

And those who are not pretending for those reasons are usually just a bit depressed so they come up with a bunch of ridiculous lies. Then once the lies are shown to be untrue they move past it, get through their depression and problem solved.

There is a term called nominalization, taking a process and turning it into a static thing. A baseball is a static thing, someone being criminal, performing criminal acts, are not static things. They describe an ongoing process, sounds like semantics and it is, but its very important semantics. Criminality can stop, one is not 'stuck' in the state of being a criminal anymore than an atom is frozen in space.

People who are criminals CAN help it, they're just LAZY.
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GodConsciousness
post Jun 22, 2009, 07:34 AM
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I agree maximus. There are a lot of people that are just plain lazy or pretending to be insane. And many like you say, just like the extra attention. I am curious whether brain imaging and diagnosis will be able to tell the difference between the pretenders and those that need brain treatment.
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catseye
post Jun 22, 2009, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Jun 22, 2009, 08:34 AM) *

I agree maximus. There are a lot of people that are just plain lazy or pretending to be insane. And many like you say, just like the extra attention. I am curious whether brain imaging and diagnosis will be able to tell the difference between the pretenders and those that need brain treatment.


If you google Dr Stone's "scale of evil" you will be able to watch clips/episodes that show
what they are developing in brain scans to determine the level of psychosis.


Researchers Study How The Mind Works When There's No Remorse
By WILLIAM HATHAWAY
Hartford Courant Staff Writer

December 18 2005

Dr. Kent A. Kiehl has interviewed dozens of psychopaths over the past
their heinous acts he remains as astonished as he is repulsed.

"I think, `I can't believe this guy is telling me he bashed in his mother's
head with a propane tank,'" Kiehl says.

Kiehl and a team of researchers at Hartford Hospital's Institute of Living are
using brain scans in an attempt to explain the inexplicable: What makes some
people absolutely devoid of empathy and remorse?

Society needs answers because of the sheer havoc psychopaths create, the
researchers say. Superficially charming, psychopaths lie, steal, rape, rob,
embezzle, assault and abuse with no compunction, no conscience. But all
psychopaths are notoriously impervious to rehabilitation.

Psychopaths account for a quarter of all prisoners in the United States - and
for as much as 50 percent of all violent crime, the researchers estimate.

There are also hundreds of thousands of psychopaths in the United States who
manage to stay out of prison, but nonetheless dole out immeasurable amounts of
pain in homes, schools, even corporate boardrooms.

Within the pattern of bright blue and yellow blotches on the brain scans he has
taken, Kiehl believes he has found the dark contours of the psychopathic mind.
When psychopaths see or hear emotional words or pictures of misery, areas of
their brains that should light up like a Christmas tree are dark and devoid of activity. Instead, their brains process information such as a picture of a bereaved mother holding her dead child in the same way they would react to a picture of a chair or shovel.

Psychopaths seem to know the words, but they can't hear the music, researchers often say.

In probing the abyss of the psychopathic mind, Kiehl and others are raising questions about our criminal justice system and our assumptions about human morality.

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GodConsciousness
post Jun 22, 2009, 08:50 AM
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And this is the issue. Do psychopaths lack the neurobiological structures to feel empathy or consciously ignore the feelings they have?

Lying, however, appears generally goal-directed and manipulative. There does not seem to be a brain abnormality per se, but a conscious decision perhaps based out of a lack of self-esteem or fear. Nevertheless, its in the realm of individual choice.

I do feel that there is a causal relationship that ensues between the choices we make and brain dynamics. It may be possible, as it were, to train the brain not to feel empathy based on past decisions and experiences.

I am also under the impression that we can consciously direct the creation (or dissolution) of our brains much more than we usually think.
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Joesus
post Jun 22, 2009, 10:06 AM
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Free will is the essence of the human mind, which drives the impulses of the brain and directs bodily movement. It exists regardless of whether the body is imprisoned or in paralysis. That mind exists regardless of the flesh and it has a distinct influence on the conditions of the body and its surroundings. If thinking is isolated to the material world the materialist will associate freedom with the conditions of bodily movements in accord with beliefs and idealisms related to materialism. If one is a spiritualist and KNOWS the spirit or soul, free will, will be associated to the only real part of themselves, rather than the image projected from what is real. It then becomes obvious to one who knows the body is transitory, or like a set of clothes that are worn, that will has designed and created those clothes as well as the stage those clothes appear.
The spiritualist knows the clothes one wears are not what makes what is inside, nor is it affected by what is outside because the clothes and all external conditions are connected to the design of form and function.

A man in what appears to be a physical prison be it steel or flesh can take his awareness anywhere he wills. Free will does not have to be associated to physical movement or accomplishments. The soul houses a mind that creates appearances and those appearances of physical means are not victims because they of themselves (appearances) are not equal to that which endures beyond the physical projection.
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P.j.S
post Jun 22, 2009, 10:37 AM
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Free will is to know what is Good or Bad at the moment being experienced and choosing to do one of them.
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Joesus
post Jun 22, 2009, 11:21 AM
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QUOTE(P.j.S @ Jun 22, 2009, 06:37 PM) *

Free will is to know what is Good or Bad at the moment being experienced and choosing to do one of them.

Knowing what is good or bad is determined according to relative measure. Free will allows all to make that determination and as such has created quite a diversity in measure and standard.

If all of suffering creates a momentum to expand and evolve it can be said suffering is a good thing.
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GodConsciousness
post Jun 22, 2009, 11:39 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Jun 22, 2009, 03:21 PM) *

QUOTE(P.j.S @ Jun 22, 2009, 06:37 PM) *

Free will is to know what is Good or Bad at the moment being experienced and choosing to do one of them.

Knowing what is good or bad is determined according to relative measure. Free will allows all to make that determination and as such has created quite a diversity in measure and standard.

If all of suffering creates a momentum to expand and evolve it can be said suffering is a good thing.


Leibniz said we live in the best of all possible worlds despite suffering and evil.
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P.j.S
post Jun 22, 2009, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Jun 22, 2009, 11:39 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Jun 22, 2009, 03:21 PM) *

QUOTE(P.j.S @ Jun 22, 2009, 06:37 PM) *

Free will is to know what is Good or Bad at the moment being experienced and choosing to do one of them.

Knowing what is good or bad is determined according to relative measure. Free will allows all to make that determination and as such has created quite a diversity in measure and standard.

If all of suffering creates a momentum to expand and evolve it can be said suffering is a good thing.


Leibniz said we live in the best of all possible worlds despite suffering and evil.

A faithful enduring course of integrity keeping from making righteous decisions with proper God fearing in the right manner is promised a reward of everlasting life from God.
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Rick
post Jun 22, 2009, 12:02 PM
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How could he (Leibnitz) possibly know that?

Wouldn't it be better if the Repugligans never gained power in the last dozen or so years, and wouldn't it have been possible for the Democrats to have kept them out of power?

It would certainly be a better world in which the corporatists don't control most of the politicians in Washington.
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Joesus
post Jun 22, 2009, 01:01 PM
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The end result isn't here. Everything is ongoing. Only by interpretation of end results, and projection of this moment being an end or the predetermined action of ends does one determine what is happening or has happened.

Surely everyone has their likes and dislikes. Americans whine and complain about the system but they enjoy benefits others don't have. And then there are anti-Americans who live in other countries who enjoy benefits that we Americans don't have while deriding the social-political riffs of a country that lives in a house divided.

Perhaps thru the difference of opinions one(s) can further refine opinion to discover universal or natural Law, and then find a way to undermine the underdog that is determined to rule in the continuance of suffering.

Sometimes you have to pull the arrow backward far enough to gain enough energy and power to propel it forward.
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Rick
post Jun 22, 2009, 01:14 PM
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Regarding the original question, "is the universe deterministic?"

The short answer is no. This is no longer subject to dispute. It's philosophically and scientifically settled. It's been proven. Even in the purely mathematical world, there is no way to take even a finite automaton and predict what it will do (you have to actually run the simulation to see how it will come out). So in the physical world, which is infinitely complex, any future moment is totally uncomputable. There should be no debate about this. If in doubt, read Steven Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science."

http://www.stephenwolfram.com/
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Joesus
post Jun 22, 2009, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 22, 2009, 09:14 PM) *

Regarding the original question, "is the universe deterministic?"

The short answer is no. This is no longer subject to dispute. It's philosophically and scientifically settled. It's been proven. Even in the purely mathematical world, there is no way to take even a finite automaton and predict what it will do (you have to actually run the simulation to see how it will come out). So in the physical world, which is infinitely complex, any future moment is totally uncomputable. There should be no debate about this. If in doubt, read Steven Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science."

http://www.stephenwolfram.com/

Do you believe this world has a lifespan and that it will come to an end?
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Rick
post Jun 22, 2009, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Jun 22, 2009, 02:16 PM) *
Do you believe this world has a lifespan and that it will come to an end?

No. Evidence to date seems to indicate that the universe will go on forever.
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Joesus
post Jun 22, 2009, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 22, 2009, 09:18 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Jun 22, 2009, 02:16 PM) *
Do you believe this world has a lifespan and that it will come to an end?

No. Evidence to date seems to indicate that the universe will go on forever.

Not the universe. This world, this earth.
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