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> Breaking the consciousness feedback loop
Laz
post Mar 18, 2004, 06:52 AM
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Picking up from the delusion of immortality thread, I am interested in anyones experience of breaking the consciousness feedback loop.

To expand a bit on what I mean, in daily activities our consciousness is aware of itself and observing what is going on. Yogis, and drug experimenters seem to have the ability to transcend the normal consciousness and witness an absolute singular experience.

This is a very tricky thing to describe and I am struggling to put it in words, i can only recomend you read the other thread before this one. I can only visualise this topic through a series of questions so i'll throw these open to the floor:

Do you have any experience of breaking the consciousness feedback loop?

Do you have any feelings on whether this experience is for real or is it just a further refinement of consciousness?

What is smallest granularity of consciousness?

Can consciousness be dissected until it no longer exists through meditation techniques and such?

Does anyone have any experience of consciousness that is like a state of primeval regression?

Thanks smile.gif
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rhymer
post Mar 18, 2004, 02:12 PM
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Are you referring to the state where someone is said to be daydreaming?

People in this state are so predisposed with some distant thought that they are not aware of what is going on around them. They are so focussed, usually on something fairly irrelevant, that they are almost in a trance.

Or are you referring to the situation I often myself in? This is usually when I am doing something fairly complicated on my computer, which is totally absorbing me as I try to remember where I am up to and what I am trying to achieve. In this state, I often find that my wife has entered the room and we have exchanged a few simple words, almost without me being aware that she even entered the room. I can remember afterwards that she did indeed enter but have no idea of what she or I said! To her I appeared normal and she cannot understand why I did not do what I had agreed to do!

In both these situations I find I am not aware that I am aware, solely because of truly focussed thoughts.
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Laz
post Mar 18, 2004, 11:59 PM
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Like i said; i'ts a difficult thing to describe wink.gif

The experience comes from an intended action, such as meditation, perhaps if I describe what happens to me I can explain it a bit better...

When meditating I try to stop the babble in my brain from, um... babbling! Concentration on the idea of surrender has seemed to work best for me. So like an onion I can peel away the layers of trying to visualise things all time, then the layer of the little voice(s) in the back of my head, and finally I find I need to shut down my hearing ability and this proves the most difficult for me, but provided the room is quiet its not impossible.

So once all these layers are removed, you could say I was asleep or in a trance from observing me, but inside i'm still awake and in a new place. It is a place I have also been to from taking drugs like pot and sally. What I experience is basically like a humm that surrounds me, I believe it is a humm of consciousness alone.

At this point things tend to happen, visual and auditory things that do not relate to external stimulus or from internal stimulus, i.e. thinking, or me willing things to happen. So in this state I have a hypothesis which is contrary to Shawns position. I feel I am no longer an observer of consciouness, I am conciousness or some such new age phrase wink.gif

So the question is, am I still observing myself doing something? If for example I were to do this in a MRI scanner, would the doctors nurses see any observable brain activity associated with the experience?

The point of this post thread to collect poeples ideas of what this state is and whether they have experienced it, I think Shawns been there and has a different idea of what it is. Maybe he'll post his experience? but others are welcome, and indeed essential because Shawn and I wish to see other peoples views.
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Dan
post Mar 24, 2004, 12:53 AM
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why would one care whether or not one is breaking a 'consciousness feedback loop', or internal dialogue? Such a 'quieting' is merely a symptom of clarity, or total understanding. Understand, and ye shall be quiet
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Laz
post Mar 24, 2004, 01:31 AM
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Because "one" wants to find out what is beyond wink.gif
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Guest
post Mar 24, 2004, 02:10 AM
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laz,

..only when it's believed breaking this loop will lead to understanding, it is necessary to attempt breaking it. Any kind of experience can be had, but 'enlightenment' [for lack of a better word] is not experiential, it's the simple recognition of oneness [for lack of a better word]...
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Laz
post Mar 24, 2004, 02:35 AM
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Sorry, I cannot subscribe.

Experience and knowledge are the only two things I see are worth pushing for in this life.

To experience enlightenment is one thing, but to understand it; that is truely worth pursuing.

Just came across a sutra by a zen master named Hui-neng, he said:

'If you want to understand, see into it directly, but when you begin to think about it, it is altogether missed.'
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Kaufmann
post Mar 24, 2004, 06:52 AM
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QUOTE (Guest @ Mar 24, 02:10 AM)
Any kind of experience can be had, but 'enlightenment' [for lack of a better word] is not experiential, it's the simple recognition of oneness [for lack of a better word]...


but surely you have not experienced any and all experiences, and so you speak from very limited experience. Doesn't that concern you, Guest?

if the simple recognition of oneness is really what enlightenment is all about [for lack of a better word], then why does enlightenment [for lack of a better word] elude so many people? Perhaps because you're not talking about enlightenment as most people understand the term, but are merely talking about the recognition or belief in 'oneness', which is not the same as enlightenment. Still think you're enlightened? I don't.
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Guest
post Mar 24, 2004, 07:06 AM
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laz,

Experience and knowledge are the only two things I see are worth pushing for in this life.

- ..which is perfectly fine, and you'll have any kind of experience you set your mind to...

To experience enlightenment is one thing, but to understand it; that is truely worth pursuing.

- ..enlightenment is often refered to as freedom. Why should this freedom by limited to specific conditions for attaining it?

'If you want to understand, see into it directly, but when you begin to think about it, it is altogether missed.'

- ..who are you, but your thoughts, laz?

--------------------

Kaufmann,


but surely you have not experienced any and all experiences, and so you speak from very limited experience. Doesn't that concern you, Guest?

- ..no, it doesn't. Why should it?

if the simple recognition of oneness is really what enlightenment is all about [for lack of a better word], then why does enlightenment [for lack of a better word] elude so many people?

- ..because people believe differently...

Perhaps because you're not talking about enlightenment as most people understand the term, but are merely talking about the recognition or belief in 'oneness', which is not the same as enlightenment. Still think you're enlightened? I don't.

- ..there is not one to become enlightened. Enlightenment is the state of being, now. Concepts created by wishes and experiences following it, create a tapestry of necessaty, order and belief. Ofcourse nothing of this has to do with any of THAT...


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Kaufmann
post Mar 24, 2004, 07:13 AM
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So to be clear, you're defining enlightenment as a state of being characterized by recognition of oneness?

What sort of recognition do you mean? Is recognition of oneness the same as belief in oneness, is it a perception of oneness, an experience of oneness, or something else?
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Laz
post Mar 24, 2004, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE
who are you, but your thoughts, laz?


That is what I am trying to find out, and why I started this thread.

This may be your answer, but it is not yet mine. I may well conclude that you are right, but I am not there yet.

Do you want to try and convince me?
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Guest
post Mar 24, 2004, 10:31 AM
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Kaufmann: So to be clear, you're defining enlightenment as a state of being characterized by recognition of oneness?

- ..as far as labeling goes, that would be a fair assesment. Enlightenment is not dependant on anything, not even recognition. It always is in spite of conditions put upon it, e.i. a means to attain it, or ignorance...

What sort of recognition do you mean?

- ..recognition is always of something known. That means that recognition of oneness can only be when oneness is known. This knowing is not individualized, it is through the illusion of individuality [separation] oneness manifests...

Is recognition of oneness the same as belief in oneness, is it a perception of oneness, an experience of oneness, or something else?

- ..no beliefs are necessary, perception is a lie and experiences can take on any form or shape one desires, and requires an experiencer. There is no doing involved what this recognition is concerned, it is a natural process which is beyond control, altough at the time it appeared to have been instigated by someone. So, it would be something else...

.........

Laz: This may be your answer, but it is not yet mine. I may well conclude that you are right, but I am not there yet.

- ..this is the wonderfull part; there's no getting there, you've never left...

Do you want to try and convince me?

- ..how is that possible? No, what we can do is communicate, engage a conversation and through this inward/outward flow anything can arise...





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Kaufmann
post Mar 24, 2004, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE
Kaufmann: So to be clear, you're defining enlightenment as a state of being characterized by recognition of oneness?

- ..as far as labeling goes, that would be a fair assesment.


but this underdetermines enlightenment since many states fit this description. So you're saying that enlightenment is many states? How many? Can you further describe them?

QUOTE
it is through the illusion of individuality [separation] oneness manifests...


so you're saying that oneness manifests itself through an illusion? Doesn't this undermine your argument that enlightenment is characterized by oneness, which you seem to be saying is an illusion?
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Guest
post Mar 24, 2004, 11:10 AM
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Kaufmann: but this underdetermines enlightenment since many states fit this description.

- ..what many states?

So you're saying that enlightenment is many states? How many? Can you further describe them?

- ..no, that is what you are saying. First explain what you mean, please...

so you're saying that oneness manifests itself through an illusion?

- ..the recognition of oneness, yes. Should've been clearer on that...

Doesn't this undermine your argument that enlightenment is characterized by oneness, which you seem to be saying is an illusion?

- ..no, not if all is illusion. The dream has certain characteristics; gravity, matter, light and so on, but it's still a dream...




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Dan
post Mar 24, 2004, 10:58 PM
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Kaufman, "guest"'s philosophy can be better understood by going here, where you may recognize another local named 'Joesus' by the name 'Maha'. I suspect that 'guest' is one of Joesus' little tools, preaching the 'ascension' religion here as some sort of 'lesson'
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Laz
post Mar 24, 2004, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE
..how is that possible? No, what we can do is communicate, engage a conversation and through this inward/outward flow anything can arise


Doesn't look like much of a conversation to me, go on ask me a question about my beliefs, I dare you wink.gif
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Dan
post Mar 24, 2004, 11:22 PM
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I said
QUOTE
why would one care whether or not one is breaking a 'consciousness feedback loop', or internal dialogue?


and you (Laz) replied
QUOTE
Because "one" wants to find out what is beyond


I guess what I mean is, the quieting of internal dialogue is not an end to attain so much as a symptom of understanding. One can either deny the world until one feels a sense of understanding of what is left, or one can determine to honestly understand any aspect of the world that might ever come to mind. The first way becomes self-centered in the quest toward 'enlightenment', while becoming characterized by delusionality, isolation and ultimately decay. The second way becomes 'all'-focused in the quest to hold the good of 'all' above self, perhaps never yeilding to the state of 'enlightenment' but becoming life itself.
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Laz
post Mar 24, 2004, 11:45 PM
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Knowledge will come from understanding not from thinking too much about understanding, of that I am sure.

Does anyone have any knowldege to share?
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ephrem
post Mar 25, 2004, 01:25 AM
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..'guest' decided to register as ephrem for a little bit more clarity, seeing how these post are contributed to be someone else entirely. What these posts point at has nothing to do with religion, techniques, followers, holy books, deities or beliefs, but everything with the obvious that is ovelooked when searching for it...

Laz, this search for truth of yours, does it have conditions or are you prepared to even die if that means that you 'get' it?
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Laz
post Mar 25, 2004, 01:51 AM
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hmm, interesting thought...

I believe that if I was to die today, then I would do so happily. However I have most recently considered death to be an active force that is trying to kill me.

To think that I should kill myself to find the answers I seek is a little perplexing. I had not considered that an option until now, and now I think about it, I feel it would be something I should consider only after exploring all other possibilities, which I am far from doing.

When that day comes though, yes I would be prepared to die to find the answers I am seeking.
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Joesus
post Mar 25, 2004, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE (Dan @ Mar 25, 06:58 AM)
Kaufman, "guest"'s philosophy can be better understood by going here, where you may recognize another local named 'Joesus' by the name 'Maha'.  I suspect that 'guest' is one of Joesus' little tools, preaching the 'ascension' religion here as some sort of 'lesson'

Your obsessing again Dan.
But thanks for thinking of me.
Smoochies wub.gif
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ephrem
post Mar 26, 2004, 01:23 AM
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laz,

..in all religion death plays a vital role to come to understanding. After death there's ressurection, but it's not meant to be taken literally. Death means the surrender to the unknown, the release of everything you hold dear [in the mind], to let-go of the conditions that obscures the unconditional. Ofcourse, when there's enjoyment of exploring all possibilities, by all means, emerse in it, love it, be it...

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Laz
post Mar 26, 2004, 01:44 AM
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Ok, stay consistent for me ephrem ;0) I do not follow any religion, i think that organised religion is bad, if i have a religion, it is my own and it contains one god, and one follower, and they're the same.

For me death means pyshical death, not some metaphorical meaning. so was your original question about real death or metaphorical death?
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ephrem
post Mar 26, 2004, 02:00 AM
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..it was about the willingness to die in whatever form. To give up everything you hold dear if that would mean you 'get' it. Religion of itself is of no importance, and altough it is necessary to invent the wheel all over again if it's about truth, where you are countless 'others' have been aswell...

Laz, this sense of being an individual; does it hold secrets, does it fear dissapearing, does it fear nakedness and being seen for what it is?
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Laz
post Mar 26, 2004, 03:23 AM
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I see where this is going rolleyes.gif

You're just another salesman with a product to sell.
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Joesus
post Mar 26, 2004, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE (Laz @ Mar 26, 11:23 AM)
I see where this is going rolleyes.gif

You're just another salesman with a product to sell.

And you said you were willing to evolve...... blink.gif
You're becoming you mum and your granny Laz.
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Laz
post Mar 26, 2004, 11:22 AM
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if you say so
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Joesus
post Mar 26, 2004, 01:34 PM
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I did say so.
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Laz
post Mar 27, 2004, 02:41 AM
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well good for you
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Joesus
post Mar 27, 2004, 10:27 AM
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Thank you, thank you very muuchuser posted image
Does that mean that you believe me and its true?
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