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catseye
post Jul 10, 2009, 06:17 PM
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I enjoy conversing with you but we can't allow subjects to get off topic from the original poster.
So from now on, if we start a dialog and it goes off course from the thread, Lets take it here. ok? ...


QUOTE
In one sense God gives free will to the reflection of itself and that reflection displays all dimensional levels of duality, which is the nature of the manifest. It is dual. God is complete. The ego projects God as both negative and positive and that duality as the nature of becoming a whole, by believing it can isolate itself in and amongst these things and then putting these things together. The relative mind sees only the relative. The human that believes him/herself to be in the world and of it cannot see any further than this process, but that does not mean the human is limited to the relative any more than God could be limited by any single experience of ignorance projected by the ego, or that God has a need for the human to give God something to complete God.


You also say that God has no wants. So I ask

Why or what was the first act of creation? Why did god reflect himself to begin with if he has no wants?
"In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth - and then man in his own image. he did this because?

If someone knows (remembers) past lives, is this awareness ego?
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Joesus
post Jul 10, 2009, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 02:17 AM) *

I enjoy conversing with you but we can't allow subjects to get off topic from the original poster.
So from now on, if we start a dialog and it goes off course from the thread, Lets take it here. ok? ...


QUOTE
In one sense God gives free will to the reflection of itself and that reflection displays all dimensional levels of duality, which is the nature of the manifest. It is dual. God is complete. The ego projects God as both negative and positive and that duality as the nature of becoming a whole, by believing it can isolate itself in and amongst these things and then putting these things together. The relative mind sees only the relative. The human that believes him/herself to be in the world and of it cannot see any further than this process, but that does not mean the human is limited to the relative any more than God could be limited by any single experience of ignorance projected by the ego, or that God has a need for the human to give God something to complete God.


You also say that God has no wants. So I ask

Why or what was the first act of creation? Why did god reflect himself to begin with if he has no wants?
"In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth - and then man in his own image. he did this because?

The nature of the Universe or of God is to reflect itself.
If you were to look into the nature of the Acorn as a seed that creates an oak.. It bears the complete essence of the fully grown oak within itself. Would you say the acorn has a desire to create an Oak? Would you contemplate that the seed is in itself incomplete if it does not germinate and create the oak? And does the seed recognize need or purpose?

Also the gender of God as a he is representative of What?
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 02:17 AM) *

If someone knows (remembers) past lives, is this awareness ego?

The ego is necessary to translate the manifest into some semblance of order. IT is a construct, but when the awareness makes it the point of reference it loses touch with the nature of reality by isolating itself in the experience of the "I" as a real and separate entity other than God.
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Rick
post Jul 10, 2009, 08:02 PM
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The thing I like about playing philosophical ping pong with Joesus is that he can cast doubt on any certainty. Please don't try to keep score.
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catseye
post Jul 10, 2009, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE
The nature of the Universe or of God is to reflect itself.
If you were to look into the nature of the Acorn as a seed that creates an oak.. It bears the complete essence of the fully grown oak within itself. Would you say the acorn has a desire to create an Oak? Would you contemplate that the seed is in itself incomplete if it does not germinate and create the oak? And does the seed recognize need or purpose?


It's in it's nature to become a Tree. Desire may be viewed on the growth of the tree. In the NT Jesus cursed the fig tree that bore no figs - why would he, who is beyond personal illusion, cruse something that has no desire?

QUOTE

Also the gender of God as a he is representative of What?


The energy of male and female is characterized by yin and yang. The male being the energy that brings forth creation (gives - father) and the female that harnesses creation (receives - mother). God is the first and begot life so we say "he" in our chosen language.


QUOTE

The ego is necessary to translate the manifest into some semblance of order. IT is a construct, but when the awareness makes it the point of reference it loses touch with the nature of reality by isolating itself in the experience of the "I" as a real and separate entity other than God.


So you do recognize that ego is necessary? Is not awareness and ego one in the same? To be conscious we must be aware. And if further so than what are we manifesting? As manifestation is indicative of growth and change.
And further more so, what then is karma to this? If we are not changing or growing what is the purpose of life to life karma?
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Joesus
post Jul 10, 2009, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:02 AM) *

The thing I like about playing philosophical ping pong with Joesus is that he can cast doubt on any certainty. Please don't try to keep score.

It aint about keeping score..

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM) *

It's in it's nature to become a Tree. Desire may be viewed on the growth of the tree. In the NT Jesus cursed the fig tree that bore no figs - why would he, who is beyond personal illusion, cruse something that has no desire?

Symbolically, the gesture was to illustrate that the universe has direction and a cohesive structure that ultimately reflects the nature of God, just like the nature of the acorn is to take its direction in becoming an oak given that it has all the right conditions. Those conditions are fertile soil, water and sunshine.
Jesus himself had no feeling toward the tree in a personal sense. Everything he demonstrated for his disciples was to illustrate natural law.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM) *

Also the gender of God as a he is representative of What?

The energy of male and female is characterized by yin and yang. The male being the energy that brings forth creation (gives - father) and the female that harnesses creation (receives - mother). God is the first and begot life so we say "he" in our chosen language.

Yes. The representation is symbolic rather than gender sensitive. Then we can understand that God is not a he in the sense we look at our human personalities, but more of a symbol gathered from representations of the occurrences that take place within the nature of all things and yet cannot be contained in either or any combination


QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM) *

So you do recognize that ego is necessary?

It is part of the construct of duality.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM) *
Is not awareness and ego one in the same?

Not entirely. The ego cannot exist without the Self. Awareness is like the absolute in motion. In its natural state or in the state scripture describes it the essence of the absolute is stillness, silence, without motion or without relative substance.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM) *
To be conscious we must be aware.

To be conscious the we must go and when it goes the One is known.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM) *
And if further so than what are we manifesting? As manifestation is indicative of growth and change.

Indications of linear movement, of creation rather than the cognition of something already present is the unconscious awareness of ego or self, the "I" in and amongst the ever changing perceptions of the "I" and its place in the universe.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM) *

And further more so, what then is karma to this? If we are not changing or growing what is the purpose of life to life karma?
Reflection of self/Self awareness. The more you place in between the Self and the identification of the self/ego the more you reflect those thoughts in the continuation of projections. Series one, series two, sometimes a rerun and series three..etc. You pick up where you left off. The amount of energy spent in keeping appearances of the ego on the screen taxes the life from the physical structure aging and and depleting its reserves of stored energy, because its energy is all based on a limited amount of recycled relative projections.
Once the awareness is returned to the tree of immortality rather than on and around the tree of good and evil (duality), the source of energy becomes limitless and un-ending.
As long as the awareness is on the tree of good and evil it is linked to the cursed nature of a fruitless or barren existence. The awareness unconsciously disconnected from its source is like the acorn without soil, water or sunshine.
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catseye
post Jul 11, 2009, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 10, 2009, 09:02 PM) *

The thing I like about playing philosophical ping pong with Joesus is that he can cast doubt on any certainty. Please don't try to keep score.



LOL -nor would I even try...just keeping an eye on the ball is challenging enough. biggrin.gif




...be back later
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catseye
post Jul 16, 2009, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE
name='Joesus' date='Jul 11, 2009, 12:17 AM' post='103112']
'catseye' post
It's in it's nature to become a Tree. Desire may be viewed on the growth of the tree. In the NT Jesus cursed the fig tree that bore no figs - why would he, who is beyond personal illusion, curse something that has no desire?

Symbolically, the gesture was to illustrate that the universe has direction and a cohesive structure that ultimately reflects the nature of God, just like the nature of the acorn is to take its direction in becoming an oak given that it has all the right conditions. Those conditions are fertile soil, water and sunshine.
Jesus himself had no feeling toward the tree in a personal sense. Everything he demonstrated for his disciples was to illustrate natural law.


Matthew 21:18 -22

He wasn't teaching natural law at all, but the reverence we hold as self willed co-creators. paradox-If the fig tree had it's fruit would he have bothered to teach this lesson? Better than a side of a mountain sliding into the sea...? so perhaps he choose the lesser but he still chose to react in the way of not being fulfilled of his need. That's personal.





QUOTE
'catseye' post='103106' date='Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM']
So you do recognize that ego is necessary?

It is part of the construct of duality.



just to reiterate I speak of the ego as our self will, our ability to be individual and that overcoming fear hate or obsession is in reference to our darker nature but the ego itself is the construct of our living life here.
does it die when we die? no...because it is not an it - but us, and we only transcend from consciousness to consciousness.
but we change ourselves from experience to experience.



QUOTE
To be conscious the we must go and when it goes the One is known.


Knowing God does not require we lose ourselves. but requires that we know stillness, silence, and release of the carnal.

QUOTE
And if further so than what are we manifesting? As manifestation is indicative of growth and change.
---
Indications of linear movement, of creation rather than the cognition of something already present is the unconscious awareness of ego or self, the "I" in and amongst the ever changing perceptions of the "I" and its place in the universe.



I can't get the concept of what you wrote to what I stated above could you re explain?


QUOTE
Reflection of self/Self awareness. The more you place in between the Self and the identification of the self/ego the more you reflect those thoughts in the continuation of projections. Series one, series two, sometimes a rerun and series three..etc. You pick up where you left off. The amount of energy spent in keeping appearances of the ego on the screen taxes the life from the physical structure aging and and depleting its reserves of stored energy, because its energy is all based on a limited amount of recycled relative projections.
Once the awareness is returned to the tree of immortality rather than on and around the tree of good and evil (duality), the source of energy becomes limitless and un-ending.
As long as the awareness is on the tree of good and evil it is linked to the cursed nature of a fruitless or barren existence. The awareness unconsciously disconnected from its source is like the acorn without soil, water or sunshine.



The amount of energy spent in keeping appearances of the ego on the screen taxes the life from the physical structure aging and and depleting its reserves of stored energy,

I thought that was called gravity.... ; )

I understand what you had said here, but I still am not convinced that it is not a creative journey of soul with this human life.

What is the tree of immortality?

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Joesus
post Jul 17, 2009, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *


Matthew 21:18 -22

He wasn't teaching natural law at all, but the reverence we hold as self willed co-creators.

There is only one. The we/I puts creation into personal boxes of interpretation.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *

paradox-If the fig tree had it's fruit would he have bothered to teach this lesson?

Not with that tree.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *
Better than a side of a mountain sliding into the sea...? so perhaps he choose the lesser but he still chose to react in the way of not being fulfilled of his need. That's personal.

If all you know is to make things personal then that is all you could conceive of in his actions and examples.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *

just to reiterate I speak of the ego as our self will, our ability to be individual and that overcoming fear hate or obsession is in reference to our darker nature but the ego itself is the construct of our living life here.
You speak of it now in that way but you have added all the lesser properties to it as inclusive.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *

does it die when we die? no...because it is not an it - but us, and we only transcend from consciousness to consciousness.
but we change ourselves from experience to experience.

That is the lesser you make inclusive. There is only One consciousness. The Super Ego or Cosmic ego is not separate from another ego, there is only One. Experiences created from identification of Self/Consciousness/God as clothed personalities only exist as a result of individual desire or thought streams. They are projections like those displayed on a movie screen. They aren't real in the sense that they last. They are only temporary illusions of identity and the lesser ego, or the construct of individuality that can only perceive itself within time and creation as linear, and recognizes only one thing at a time rather than all at once. The lesser ego sees itself as limited by creation rather than as the creator of all of it.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *

I can't get the concept of what you wrote to what I stated above could you re explain?

I think we may get there eventually but for now you aren't grasping what I have said and so to say it again and again may not make a difference until you are able to shift your awareness just ever so slightly beyond your present experience and belief.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *

The amount of energy spent in keeping appearances of the ego on the screen taxes the life from the physical structure aging and and depleting its reserves of stored energy,

I thought that was called gravity.... ; )

And what creates gravity in the physical world that binds the soul to the material?
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *

I understand what you had said here, but I still am not convinced that it is not a creative journey of soul with this human life.
Because you don't believe your soul is any different than what you believe it to be.
The story of evolution suffices to meet your needs as you wish to believe.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 17, 2009, 05:13 AM) *

What is the tree of immortality?

The central nervous system of God.
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Rick
post Jul 17, 2009, 07:30 AM
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Is it true that the tree of immortality lives only so long as life exists?
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Joesus
post Jul 17, 2009, 08:18 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 17, 2009, 03:30 PM) *

Is it true that the tree of immortality lives only so long as life exists?

There has never been a time that life did not exist if you expand the idea of life beyond the gross physical level and this particular planet. Life exists in many forms and is dimensionally spread out through time and space.

There is in story form only, to point in the direction of consciousness in action, the creation and dissolution of the universe and the story is that it happens over and over again. It's described in similar terms to someone going to sleep. When you sleep consciousness of the individual is suspended for a short period and all of the world ceases to exist, until one wakes in the morning. The creation and dissolution of the Universe is similar in story only that it ceases to exist as consciousness abandons its attention on the material world, but instead of picking up where it left off the Hindu stories indicate that they begin over and over again. But that is only one description, another twist on it is each new creation has the same characters but sometimes they change roles and sometimes they do not. Both descriptions come from the same Scripture.

The nature of the Universe is that it is un-ending in the reflection of itself. At one level of perspective it appears that it changes but in fact the change already exists. It always has. It would then be more akin to a movie film with the different exposures being different realities which are in potential when not accessed (when the light is moving thru that particular frame) but then Consciousness is always accessing everything, it is only the individual experience that seems to be moving from one frame of the Film to another.

If there is in the nature of appearances more than one individual just as there are more cells than just one in the body or appearance of the whole, then all movement is making the whole thru the many. But if you expand outward you will only recognize the whole of the body. (there is only an illusion of perspective that each individual cell is not intimately connected and working under one roof and one mind)

Expand a bit further and that body becomes like one of many cells that make another body ad infinitum... Go in either direction even dimensionally and there exists life in every aspect of the universal body, and universes within universes. All options and crossroads taken and used, nothing left out. Nothing new other than from the perspective of limited awareness having ignored everything around itself and discovering what it has in the short span of physical identification, not seen and experienced before. An absolute.
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Phi
post Jul 18, 2009, 06:00 AM
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So for the last part, how does that apply to your personal existence here?
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Joesus
post Jul 18, 2009, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE(Phi @ Jul 18, 2009, 02:00 PM) *

So for the last part, how does that apply to your personal existence here?

It would be whatever I want to make of it, but then that would be relative to experience and experiences are constantly changing.

In order to get a feel for Self one needs to find innocence in something more than relative terms and ideals.
To be in the present moment is to be without expectations and judgments, yet not mindless or slothful as Lucid once accused me of preaching.

I like to use something that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi once said at a University forum back in the sixties as an example.
He was speaking of the effects of meditation upon the nervous system and psychology of humanity when they use it to connect with the source of all things. He used to liken the absolute to the sap in a tree, saying that the tree could not live without it even if all the external conditions were met such as sunshine, water and a perfect growing media. He would say without the connection to the sap of life humanity withers, and regardless of money or perfect health the body ages and dies without having true Joy and health of the soul to nurture the mind and body regardless of how the experience of life is met and experienced.
He would say it had to come first and foremost to help the mind and body develop a relationship with the outer world that was based on Truth rather than illusion. For all the social problems of war and suffering in disease and poverty, the cure was to become aware of how all things are connected so that effort becomes efficient to the health of humanity in spirit so that the body and mind could follow. Without it all actions are of ignorance, delusion and fear of being without or not having something. Greed and apathy become the norm where one fears so much for ones own life that all other is completely ignored. The Me first and everything else comes second, and as long as there is the need for me first it invariably means there will never be enough, or an end to what the me needs to protect itself from the inevitable threat that lurks in the subconscious of the ego.

Thinking to make fun of Maharishi and his description of the inadequacies of government social programs which give money to those who just plain don't want to work, and giving them no incentive to do so when it encourages dependence, a young student asked Maharishi, "Don't you think it is more important to feed the hungry people than it is to teach them meditation?"
His answer was, "If you teach a hungry man to meditate, he will become a happy hungry man." Meaning that without understanding himself and his connection to the whole, he becomes like the barren tree Catseye refers to in the bible of which Jesus makes an example. Man becomes fruitless..
Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?


Obviously you can't get grapes from thorn bearing bushes nor do you get figs from thistles no matter how you water and nurture those plants, also meaning man does not bear fruit from putting energy into something that does not produce or release more energy...or it can also mean that you can put energy into something that takes it and gives nothing back such as giving energy to the ego.
When man is self/ego serving there is nothing being nourished in the heart of the soul or to that which produces life in everything. Its like religion claiming to own an interest in god and being a collective watering the branch of a tree; their branch of the tree. When the branch is watered and the root is ignored then the tree for all the branches that are being watered in individual efforts and beliefs eventually dies because the tree itself is not being seen or given attention at its source of life.

You could say mans purpose is to nurture the root of the Tree by connecting to it and therefore being a part of the whole. In separation any effort is only realized as being of a branch in separation and personal ideals.
With so many ideas and beliefs of personal identities we are like the house (or in this case the Tree) divided that Lincoln once spoke of in his Gettysburg address. A House (or tree) divided cannot stand.

So getting back to the "Happy hungry man" idea. A man connected to the source becomes more aware of the growth and health of the tree and naturally acts in accord with that direction. It become the nature of the man to surrender all personal idealisms based on fear and lack to that which is greater, being the infinite source of creativity. The happy hungry man finds he has a choice to ignore reality in Truth or to consciously join in to be a part of it. When one surrenders (recognizes Truth and acknowledges it in everything) to Truth because it is more real than the surrender (giving up in thoughts of hopelessness and belief) of all power and potential in themselves, they become intuitively inspired to the flow of energy in everything and in themselves.

The meditation he refers to is of the kind that eliminates stress from the body, giving the mind less crap to hold its attention and distract itself from the present moment. Leading the mind and awareness to what is called innocence such as that of a child. Living in the present moment without the weight of the thoughts of the past and the expectations of the future that is not coming according to the preconceived ideas of past impressions. A mind and body refreshed as if having been on a vacation and just waking to a day of potential opportunity.
Such a mind and body is prepared for anything and has an infinite capability to take its awareness in any direction but more importantly is tuned to the direction of the universe at hand.

Thomas:22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."

If you ask yourself what it is that you want or what anyone wants, you could jump past the relative icons of wealth and personal happiness that comes from sensory gratification in achieving goals that create short term gratification, to that which is the elusive satisfaction of permanent Joy or contentment. A joy or contentment that would exist within any experience even if it was contrasted by sadness or physical pain. The kind of joy that you feel when you are in love and even if you stub your toe it means nothing because you are in love and nothing else matters. The kind of Joy and contentment that even if you are given your favorite food or win the lottery it doesn't matter because you are in love and that love means more than all the money in the world. But it is a love that is eternal and it is solid and doesn't fade with age and beauty goes beyond all appearances and experiences of contrast.

We see things the way we want to see them not necessarily for what they are.
If a man loses a job everyone say "gee that is so sad." But if he gets a better job and is happier in the new job everyone says "gee that is great!" If your emotions rule your mind and body and you are like the person who lost his job diving into sadness, the world around you is full of sadness and you suffer. If in the course of time you get the new job and your emotions spike into happiness because of the new job, how many times will you let those things around you control how you experience yourself and life?
IF you believe the outside controls how you feel will, would you be like the welfare recipient that has given up and allowed the system of external circumstance and programs of social order dictate the path of least resistance to live your life according to how someone else tells you to live? Will you say yes this system has created me and I have to live my life according to circumstance or would you, could you make a choice to live your life according to greater potential and possibility? Are certain people born with more potential than others, Born smarter and wiser, Born to succeed where others are born to fail?

Thomas: 80 Jesus said,"Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

I know I've said a lot and I suppose I could have given you a shorter answer but then What I am doing here is not to placate the personal ideals of those who would wish I was a certain way, especially if the way I am irritates the shit out of them. Those who have read my posts know that some like the Reverend would have me write my words in a specific format and limit my opinions to please him and those he believes I also irritate by saying what is on my mind. Yet it is not my experience that what I am doing is personal even tho I might have a personality. What I do I like, but it is not based on like, it is based on Joy and contentment that I am a part of the whole and it is also my experience.
I've experienced the world as it goes thru job loss and then shortly afterward gains the better job and more happiness (metaphorically speaking).
I experience being a part of something greater than just an experience of happiness, sadness or love or anger.
I allow myself to express in the moment without the attachment and expectation of review from the ego, because the ego is fickle and loves you one moment and hates you the next. It is predisposed by its need to be stroked and fed like a black hole that sucks everything into it and leaves nothing. It needs to be in control and it manipulates others into believing it has some importance and identity.
What I am doing here is what I do naturally. I can feel and do anything in any moment and experience that it all ends up in the same place and it is part and parcel to something that flows effortlessly toward its source just like a river that flows to the ocean.
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catseye
post Jul 20, 2009, 12:08 PM
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All well said.


However, still. Why are we here?? This is the paradox that no spiritual teacher can answer. Many speak of the ego, the dweller, the lower drives, the illusion of self. And that all of it is to be dissed to a greater One or absolute reality. But also that we or it is from and formed by this also.

Did we fall from grace?
Are we growing toward grace?
we have this ego, we can only surmise it's one or the other. but you say, no? You say the ego is the construct of this earthly life yet it is not our life but another life of it's own. Who created the ego?

Is it a soul virus? We caught a bug or something? well, Dr Seuss what's the cure for this little who..

again, I think we are growing toward our soul combined- the sacred marriage- but to say our ego is evil or something other than ourselves is also self defeating.


and hey, don't take it that way...I love Dr Seuss...

You asked is there people born to succeed or fail. Aren't there? In all my questions there is one premise, what is the correlation between these earthly lives and the soul?
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Joesus
post Jul 20, 2009, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 20, 2009, 08:08 PM) *

All well said.


However, still. Why are we here?? This is the paradox that no spiritual teacher can answer.

Not to the satisfaction of the ego.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 20, 2009, 08:08 PM) *

Many speak of the ego, the dweller, the lower drives, the illusion of self. And that all of it is to be dissed to a greater One or absolute reality. But also that we or it is from and formed by this also.

Did we fall from grace?
Are we growing toward grace?
we have this ego, we can only surmise it's one or the other. but you say, no? You say the ego is the construct of this earthly life yet it is not our life but another life of it's own. Who created the ego?

To answer that you would first have to know who or what you are.
The Soul being immortal has a consciousness. Is it limited to the mechanical sense oriented human consciousness you entertain thoughts with or is that immortal soul something greater than what you think you are?
Do you believe in reincarnation and do you know about and understand multidimensional realities?
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 20, 2009, 08:08 PM) *

Is it a soul virus? We caught a bug or something? well, Dr Seuss what's the cure for this little who..

It is neither.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 20, 2009, 08:08 PM) *

again, I think we are growing toward our soul combined- the sacred marriage- but to say our ego is evil or something other than ourselves is also self defeating.

I had a thought once...But seriously, the ego when it becomes the master to our senses just as cigarettes become an addiction to our senses creates a distraction to the intellect and the central nervous system. We may give into habit that is clouding our judgment and creating distractions. If we take up an addictive habit are we then moving toward health and wholeness as we dive into the suffering of the addiction by losing ourselves in the distractions of the effects of the addiction? In once sense you could say you are if you hit bottom and there is no where to go but up unless you die from the addiction.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 20, 2009, 08:08 PM) *

You asked is there people born to succeed or fail. Aren't there? In all my questions there is one premise, what is the correlation between these earthly lives and the soul?

Cause and effect. Perfect compensation for choices made. You get what you pay for and since it's all God it's all Good. However God doesn't lose itself in any experience. It is only the delusions created by the addictions to identity that is of the misguided awareness attentive to the mechanics of the sense oriented ego. The choices that draw cognitive awareness away from the Self lead to the experience of ignorance and suffering. It is there that one surmises the reality of a soul that is on an evolutionary path to get somewhere that it is not. It is only the awareness clouded by the ego that is not where it wants to be, and being there it wonders how it got there, dreams of where it will be, and projects its ideal Union with a God it has not yet remembered or experienced.
It in itself is not evil anymore than an addict is evil, but an addict often makes poor choices compared to someone who is of a clear mind.
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post Jul 22, 2009, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE
However, still. Why are we here?? This is the paradox that no spiritual teacher can answer.

Not to the satisfaction of the ego




Your answer seems to be based on the idea that life is based on satisfaction.
If the soul is pure and God absolute what satisfaction have we to live an earthly life?



QUOTE
Who created the ego?

To answer that you would first have to know who or what you are.
The Soul being immortal has a consciousness. Is it limited to the mechanical sense oriented human consciousness you entertain thoughts with or is that immortal soul something greater than what you think you are?



If the soul created this ego than the answer may be both. Understanding 'sacrifice by limitation' would be a fair answer in the souls mind for self mastery. But if the soul is already perfect...? why then this journey? It would only suffice to understand that the condition of limited life is a lesson in accepting immortal life.

QUOTE


Do you believe in reincarnation and do you know about and understand multidimensional realities?


Believe, Know and Understand. Strong words.."know and understand". Belief is an illusion.
What is it that you ask of me?


QUOTE

again, I think we are growing toward our soul combined- the sacred marriage- but to say our ego is evil or something other than ourselves is also self defeating.

I had a thought once...But seriously,




Another failed attempt at humor... The principle of harmlessness is yet something for you to master.
True humor creates joy. Try it sometime.




QUOTE

You asked is there people born to succeed or fail. Aren't there? In all my questions there is one premise, what is the correlation between these earthly lives and the soul?

Cause and effect. Perfect compensation for choices made. You get what you pay for and since it's all God it's all Good. However God doesn't lose itself in any experience. It is only the delusions created by the addictions to identity that is of the misguided awareness attentive to the mechanics of the sense oriented ego. The choices that draw cognitive awareness away from the Self lead to the experience of ignorance and suffering. It is there that one surmises the reality of a soul that is on an evolutionary path to get somewhere that it is not. It is only the awareness clouded by the ego that is not where it wants to be, and being there it wonders how it got there, dreams of where it will be, and projects its ideal Union with a God it has not yet remembered or experienced.
It in itself is not evil anymore than an addict is evil, but an addict often makes poor choices compared to someone who is of a clear mind.



Cause and effect is a principle of this world, not a correlation of the soul, the soul uses cause and effect but is not subject to it. I see examples of this in all my days. Will your soul have cause and effect from what you said above?, likely not. And since I choose not to submit myself to an egoic reaction nor will it me. Other than that it is a good parable for living an earthly life but not an answer in understanding the souls choice in correlating a human life.

Do you know and understand past lives and multidimensional realities? Care to share who or what you remember? and what are these realities?
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post Jul 22, 2009, 10:51 AM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *

Your answer seems to be based on the idea that life is based on satisfaction.
If the soul is pure and God absolute what satisfaction have we to live an earthly life?

No what I was referring to is that asking the question why, is to satisfy the intellect. If you are immersed in God there is no why. You understand being.
Earthly life is created by questioning, Being. That is the symbolism of eating of the fruit from the tree of good and evil. It is also represented by another story of an immortal who decides to take his awareness into the infinite to find a limit to it.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *

If the soul created this ego than the answer may be both. Understanding 'sacrifice by limitation' would be a fair answer in the souls mind for self mastery. But if the soul is already perfect...? why then this journey? It would only suffice to understand that the condition of limited life is a lesson in accepting immortal life.

You are assuming the soul created the ego. What if the ego came with the creation of the Soul. The un-manifest (Father) cannot experience itself without some objective contrast to reflect itself in the Son (manifest). The Soul is like one of the 60,000 thoughts you think each day. Each thought has direction and motion. IT is imbued with all of your qualities. If the thought becomes aware of itself and identifies itself it may think I am on a journey to somewhere when it will have originated with you and will end with you.
There is a saying in the teachings of enlightenment that one has to eventually give up the path to realize ones self. The journey then becomes a path to realize there is no path, that you never really go anywhere but are always here, NOW.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *

Believe, Know and Understand. Strong words.."know and understand". Belief is an illusion.
What is it that you ask of me?

Can you give up all your ideas and become ONE? All incarnations are just thoughts. Reflections of thought. Experience the effect and cause the thought. It perpetuates itself if you do not stop thinking.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *

Another failed attempt at humor... The principle of harmlessness is yet something for you to master.
True humor creates joy. Try it sometime.

That's funny.... Harmlessness is having surrendered all separation of action that is good and evil. To be all Meaning there would be no path only God. God being in everything, it does not decide to not be part of its creation nor does it decide I am harmful hear and harmless there. IT loves, and supports all as itself (God) so to speak. One can be completely harmless and push the button that destroys a planet if it is in the best interests of spiritual awakening/evolution or the path to realize there is no path.
Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? It gives a good example of harmlessness as God (Krishna) encourages Arjuna to take a side or join in the destruction of humanity in its reflection of the conflict between ego and Spirit. I'd recommend Yogananda's rendition since it goes into the symbology of each character rather than just dealing out the dogmatic rendition passed down from generations of mistranslations.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *

Cause and effect is a principle of this world, not a correlation of the soul, the soul uses cause and effect but is not subject to it.

That would be the immortal soul that is not on a journey but reflects the nature of its being as the universe.
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *

I see examples of this in all my days. Will your soul have cause and effect from what you said above?, likely not.
Have cause and effect or experience cause and effect?

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *
And since I choose not to submit myself to an egoic reaction nor will it me. Other than that it is a good parable for living an earthly life but not an answer in understanding the souls choice in correlating a human life.
Your statement of choice to not submit to an egoic reaction is humorous.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 06:08 PM) *

Do you know and understand past lives and multidimensional realities? Care to share who or what you remember? and what are these realities?

Yes and No.
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post Jul 22, 2009, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE
No what I was referring to is that asking the question why, is to satisfy the intellect. If you are immersed in God there is no why. You understand being.



but without the question we stay in the dogmatic idea of separational ego...yes.


QUOTE
Earthly life is created by questioning, Being. That is the symbolism of eating of the fruit from the tree of good and evil.


How does the non being question without intellect - being?

QUOTE

It is also represented by another story of an immortal who decides to take his awareness into the infinite to find a limit to it.



Is he still here? and in the paradox of having no journey did he find the brick wall of life being based on limital limitless?




QUOTE
If the soul created this ego than the answer may be both. Understanding 'sacrifice by limitation' would be a fair answer in the souls mind for self mastery. But if the soul is already perfect...? why then this journey? It would only suffice to understand that the condition of limited life is a lesson in accepting immortal life.


You are assuming the soul created the ego. What if the ego came with the creation of the Soul.



This is what I have been saying.






QUOTE
The un-manifest (Father) cannot experience itself without some objective contrast to reflect itself in the Son (manifest). The Soul is like one of the 60,000 thoughts you think each day. Each thought has direction and motion. IT is imbued with all of your qualities. If the thought becomes aware of itself and identifies itself it may think I am on a journey to somewhere when it will have originated with you and will end with you.



agreed but there is no end. all of this is the evolution of soul (son)is not this journey the question of being?




QUOTE
There is a saying in the teachings of enlightenment that one has to eventually give up the path to realize ones self. The journey then becomes a path to realize there is no path, that you never really go anywhere but are always here, NOW.



I don't understand the now thing. The now i was long ago, is not the now that is, the now that is will know the now to be. I know the was, is, and will be, now. but also the succession of it. How can one know infinity or it's limits without the experience and will to evolve as has been described?


QUOTE

Believe, Know and Understand. Strong words.."know and understand". Belief is an illusion.
What is it that you ask of me?

Can you give up all your ideas and become ONE? All incarnations are just thoughts. Reflections of thought. Experience the effect and cause the thought. It perpetuates itself if you do not stop thinking.



(My Dad yelled at me once and said "you'd better start thinking!")

I am ONE, I'm just not mastered over my own carnal desire of human life and primal fears. Like from the top of the page our ego is created through our creation of soul and is the reflection of choice in being. Isn't the journey to bring the life of our soul with consciousness?



QUOTE
That's funny.... Harmlessness is having surrendered all separation of action that is good and evil. To be all Meaning there would be no path only God. God being in everything, it does not decide to not be part of its creation nor does it decide I am harmful hear and harmless there. IT loves, and supports all as itself (God) so to speak. One can be completely harmless and push the button that destroys a planet if it is in the best interests of spiritual awakening/evolution or the path to realize there is no path.



the term "best interests" being of importance, is subject to who and what masters harmlessness.


QUOTE

Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? It gives a good example of harmlessness as God (Krishna) encourages Arjuna to take a side or join in the destruction of humanity in its reflection of the conflict between ego and Spirit.



What is the symbolism of Arjuna response and decision?


QUOTE

I see examples of this in all my days. Will your soul have cause and effect from what you said above?, likely not.

Have cause and effect or experience cause and effect?


semantics Joe? c'mon. the concepts are plain enough.

QUOTE

Your statement of choice to not submit to an egoic reaction is humorous.


glad to have brought you a little joy.


QUOTE
Do you know and understand past lives and multidimensional realities? Care to share who or what you remember? and what are these realities?


Yes and No.


he who sits on a see-saw alone lifts no other higher.

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post Jul 22, 2009, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

but without the question we stay in the dogmatic idea of separational ego...yes.

Sometimes yes sometimes no. Sometimes just shifting perspectives thru the recognition of illusion changes ones outlook on life. But the point being is that there is no path other than the one we create. Once you get there you realize you always were there. And so the purpose of the soul traversing a path to unity only satisfies the idea of not being there. Once you are there then what? Do you imagine it all ends for the Soul and the experience of the Soul? What do you imagine happens after reaching Union with God and becoming one with God? Does the soul cease to exist?
QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

How does the non being question without intellect - being?
The intellect that is not expanded beyond the limitations of separation cannot just be. It stands apart from being and being confused by its own limitations seeks to find a way to protect itself. It cannot be until it stops deluding itself. If one has the means to quiet the mind and take the awareness to its source being becomes the product of turning the awareness from limitation to the awareness of the unlimited where it can, be.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

Is he still here? and in the paradox of having no journey did he find the brick wall of life being based on limital limitless?

He never went anywhere and so he never left anything or anywhere. A "brick wall of life" is a reflection of limited thinking.



QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

QUOTE
If the soul created this ego than the answer may be both. Understanding 'sacrifice by limitation' would be a fair answer in the souls mind for self mastery. But if the soul is already perfect...? why then this journey? It would only suffice to understand that the condition of limited life is a lesson in accepting immortal life.


You are assuming the soul created the ego. What if the ego came with the creation of the Soul.



This is what I have been saying.

But you have also been saying the soul is on a journey, yet the ego is not programmed to commit ones Self to a Journey. It is no more than a tool, and it can be misused. The awareness can become dependent on its functions to the point where the awareness is hypnotized and attached to the reference points of the tool as the object of being in the physical world, rather than on the essence of Self which is not the ego. The ego is meant to facilitate not create experience. The Awareness of Self is the creator of experience and the self absorbed believe creation takes place outside of the self. That is illusion, not a pathway.


QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

agreed but there is no end. all of this is the evolution of soul (son)is not this journey the question of being?

Yes the journey is the question of being. Being is not a question, it is being. And there if there is no end then union is not an end product or an end to a path. Paths are limited and the Soul is not limited other than by the illusions of self induced hypnotic ideals based on egoic reference points.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

I don't understand the now thing. The now i was long ago, is not the now that is, the now that is will know the now to be. I know the was, is, and will be, now. but also the succession of it. How can one know infinity or it's limits without the experience and will to evolve as has been described?

By removing the stress from the nervous system that distracts the intellect or contracts it into being separate from the One.
Infinity has no limits other than those that are self imposed by egoic identification.
The now is basically multidimensional in nature. All probable and possible realities exist in the now. They do not move, only the awareness moves like the mind jumping from one thought to another creating the images of linear progression. Even the idea of reincarnation is often seen as a linear progression when in fact it is not. You can move from the present now to the past now in any incarnation as easily as you can jump from the present or past into a future now. It is all now.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

(My Dad yelled at me once and said "you'd better start thinking!")

I am ONE, I'm just not mastered over my own carnal desire of human life and primal fears. Like from the top of the page our ego is created through our creation of soul and is the reflection of choice in being. Isn't the journey to bring the life of our soul with consciousness?
So you experience the one and it is you and you experience you in that which you see and experience?
Attachment to the physical world and fear is of the ego only. If you know the One and can continue to focus on it the rest will drop away effortlessly. It's only when the ego clings to the physical that the awareness of the immortal self and Heaven turns to separation fear and hell. If you have the tools to take the awareness to the absolute then choice becomes effortless. If you are relying on some kind of memory that you identify as the One and having experienced it you try to draw on memory it is not the same thing as being ONE. Unity is ongoing, it is now. It isn't then and maybe some future moment in a path that needs to be traversed so that the conditions become perfect again.
Clearing the stress from the nervous system and expanding the intellect is an easy and simple process if you have the tools. Thing is you have to commit to it and not waiver from the discipline. The habit of ignoring the Self and the present moment is programmed from birth in the reflection of those ideals you yourself brought forth from a life (dream) that created this one.



QUOTE
That's funny.... Harmlessness is having surrendered all separation of action that is good and evil. To be all Meaning there would be no path only God. God being in everything, it does not decide to not be part of its creation nor does it decide I am harmful hear and harmless there. IT loves, and supports all as itself (God) so to speak. One can be completely harmless and push the button that destroys a planet if it is in the best interests of spiritual awakening/evolution or the path to realize there is no path.


QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

the term "best interests" being of importance, is subject to who and what masters harmlessness.

Best interests being the direction and flow of the river in the current reality as the creator or the river. If you swim upstream or grasp onto the branches and brambles along the shoreline rather than become one with the river you suffer the consequences of exhaustion, bruising and eventually physical death.
Even an old lady who seems harmless destroys millions of bacteria every time she washes her hands, poisons little creatures when she dusts her roses with insecticide and crushes bugs underfoot when she walks, all without being conscious of these other worlds that are not what she believes is hers. In separation one does not live as the river in the flow with constant expansion as the river.
The river touches and knows its source and where it ends as the river. God which is the source and has no end is ongoing. Once one give up playing boat in a rive to realize the river it is an easy jump from river to God.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

What is the symbolism of Arjuna response and decision?
The struggle between ego and spirit and eventually the surrender of the ego to spirit.

QUOTE(catseye @ Jul 22, 2009, 08:29 PM) *

he who sits on a see-saw alone lifts no other higher.

There is ever only One. It doesn't necessarily serve one to place the attention on the relative when it better serves one to focus on the One.
Sitting on the see saw alone is separatism. ego. pride. Unity in awareness elevates all in the experience of ONE-ness.
The show me and I'll believe and benefit approach is manipulation, not a means of elevation.
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