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> quantum minds - why we think like quarks
Trip like I do
post Sep 07, 2011, 08:07 AM
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c'mon people this place sucks lately, wake up snap out of it.... who cares about your stack or how you plan to enhance your mind.... what happened to all the mind bending stuff we used to discuss on here.... how 'bout some mental methodologies

quantum minds - why we think like quarks
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Flex
post Sep 07, 2011, 08:32 AM
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Lol the double slit experiment was funny. That is not quantum mechanics IMO... That is something you do in general physics. It is not acting like a particle and a wave, it is acting like a wave of particles, or more precisely a beam. One does not say sound acts like a wave and a particle, but you observe the same interference patterns. That is because it is a wave of particles.

To me this seems like using a cool term--quantum mechanics--to describe common sense. Everyone knows context changes meaning, hence denotation and connotation. Those terms are not quite as sexy however, as they conjure up images of shitty highschool english classrooms, rather than futuristic laboratories.
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Phi
post Sep 07, 2011, 08:33 AM
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lol, ive been thinking the same myself lately...
but i have no idea how minds are like quarks. it would be kinda cool if 1 unit of storage was quark sized...however storage would correspond to a thought
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Flex
post Sep 07, 2011, 08:42 AM
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"This is not to say that the human brain or consciousness have anything to do with quantum physics, only that the mathematical language of quantum theory happens to match the description of human decision-making.

Perhaps only humans, with our seemingly illogical minds, are uniquely capable of discovering and understanding quantum theory. To be human is to be quantum."

--------
To be human is to be quantum, yet the human brain and/or consciousness may have nothing to do with quantum physics. Sort of a contradictory statement to me.
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KoolK3n
post Sep 07, 2011, 06:23 PM
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Hence the Cognitive Enhancers section
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Flex
post Sep 07, 2011, 07:01 PM
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Maybe people are just sick of over exaggerated science press releases aimed at the layman aka propaganda?
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Flex
post Sep 07, 2011, 07:10 PM
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Here is my discussion question:
What is happiness?
How can it be cultivated?
What fundamental changes can be implemented to create a society built on compassion rather than selfishness?

You can get some idea of where I stand from my assholish comment above. I speculate that there may be an inherent biological component in how certain neurotransmitters play multiple roles, and actually predispose us from birth to be the way we are. For instance, epinephrine is vital to learning (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163104785908568) and also is involved in fight or flight response. This makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, as fight or flight behaviors are critical to the survival of the organism, and thus must be learned. In this way, learning and fear are intimately related. In our society, this stress signal is not mediated by an immediate threat, but a persistent threat. Modern survival depends on maintaining a job etc. and needless to say, financial worries and the likes are rarely acute, but rather persistent phenomenon. Stress is only healthy when we are capable of responding and adapting to it, thus learning new survival strategies. Adaptation is difficult to accomplish given the nature of our stressors. The best way I am familiar with is meditation. Somehow we must learn to control this response, to restore equilibrium (health).

http://www.tedmed.com/videos-info?name=Gol...pdated&year=all
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KoolK3n
post Sep 07, 2011, 07:30 PM
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To me Happiness can be defined by three factors:
-Family
-Wealth (Not just money, but having the ability to pursue dreams)
-Health

Fix the three and you have "happyness"...

What's interesting is the HPI (Happy Planet Index) on Wikipedia has Costa Rica as the happiest country on Earth to live in. Generally, all the countries in the Carribean score very high on the scale. I wonder why.
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Flex
post Sep 07, 2011, 07:41 PM
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No traffic lol
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KoolK3n
post Sep 07, 2011, 07:43 PM
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Everyone is sleeping lol I am getting tired too. I have to wake up at 5:30. So uh cya!
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Jakare
post Sep 07, 2011, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 08, 2011, 05:01 AM) *

Maybe people are just sick of over exaggerated science press releases aimed at the layman aka propaganda?

Well Flex if they want science to be popular they really need to add some "sugar" on it. Lets face reality. It´s just despicable when they do it not for making science popular but for money.


Quantum physics and brain, hummm... it does seem like is going to be imposible to achieve much more further comprehension about thought and memory without taking that into account and it totally raids the most radical biological deterministic theories as quarks are not fully trackable nor they behave as expected.
When the article mention waves i started on thinking if the brain-waves would be somehow related and then visualized millions of little quantum reactions happening as those waves travel along the brain storing information, processing concious or unconcious associations. Carrying with them the information beam to be analized by other parts of the brain. Resulting in something different than the sum of the parts whether accurated or not.
But nature doesn´t care about accuracy she cares about surviving.
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Flex
post Sep 07, 2011, 08:47 PM
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There is one fact that makes any connection between quantum mechanics and the body unrealistic... Have you ever met a physicist who knows a damn thing about biology? I sure haven't smile.gif Were Linus Pauling around, I might think differently.
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Jakare
post Sep 07, 2011, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 08, 2011, 06:47 AM) *

There is one fact that makes any connection between quantum mechanics and the body unrealistic... Have you ever met a physicist who knows a damn thing about biology? I sure haven't smile.gif Were Linus Pauling around, I might think differently.

me neither, but i wouldn´t mind. wink.gif
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Flex
post Sep 08, 2011, 06:52 AM
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When someone can tell me how a thought it produced without external stimuli, I might soften up to this quantum BS. This is what I call the 6th sense that no one has really investigated. The other 5 senses are easy. The 6th sense--the sense of self--now that is a tough question.

Simple thought experiment. Think about biting into a lemon and see if you can make yourself salivate. I know I can do it. There is no lemon in sight, but my body responds to its own stimulus. How?

Oh and I finally added a little more to my earlier post smile.gif
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Trip like I do
post Sep 09, 2011, 06:30 PM
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.... if we are made from the stuff of the cosmos isn't it logical that the stuff working the controls upstairs in each of us behave and operate like the stuff of that same cosmos
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Trip like I do
post Sep 09, 2011, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 08, 2011, 10:52 AM) *

When someone can tell me how a thought it produced without external stimuli, I might soften up to this quantum BS.

.... you can't be told my friend.... it's something you have to feel
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Jakare
post Sep 09, 2011, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 10, 2011, 04:30 AM) *

.... if we are made from the stuff of the cosmos isn't it logical that the stuff working the controls upstairs in each of us behave and operate like the stuff of that same cosmos

It´s completely logical, but for me the question is until what extend thinking, memory and conciousness are affected by quantum laws and if such relation can give back some "faith" on free will.
Today´s knowledge seems to point to humans just as highly complicated robots, so complicated that the difference between automatic and free will is imposible to see.
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Joesus
post Sep 10, 2011, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 10, 2011, 02:30 AM) *

.... if we are made from the stuff of the cosmos isn't it logical that the stuff working the controls upstairs in each of us behave and operate like the stuff of that same cosmos

The stuff working the controls is actually less like the stuff, because the stuff only represents what the senses tune into and want to see.
It is like the stuff in respect to the reflection it represents in the present focus on reality within the conscious and subconscious mind of personality. The stuff changes in appearance and quality as the consciousness of the individual changes, retaining all of its original qualities but then becoming different and much more, with a tinge of infinite possible change and qualities as a person accepts change as a reality or life and experience.

As one changes in the ability to perceive ones self as an object of finite quality to that which is multidimensional and without boundaries, so does the reflection of that awareness in the appearance and perceptions of the stuff.

To Dianah:

Enki was/is way too focused on conspiracy theories, with a need to battle the dark forces of the universe. This only makes these things in ones life bigger and stronger. Making the hole bigger does nothing to solve the issue with the hole unless one decides for themselves that they still don't understand their relationship to it and must take themselves deeper until they can see nothing else to understand and control it. Ultimately this is futility.

I suppose if you were to take mass quantities of LSD and have a conversation with another person in the same altered state everything would make sense in the conversation, but Enki doesn't seem to like to converse in any language other than that of an altered state of mind; one that is focused on what lay in the personal toilet before one decides to flush.
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Flex
post Sep 10, 2011, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 09, 2011, 07:30 PM) *

.... if we are made from the stuff of the cosmos isn't it logical that the stuff working the controls upstairs in each of us behave and operate like the stuff of that same cosmos


Sure it is logical, but that doesn't mean it is correct. One must assume quantum mechanics is 1.) correct and 2.) opperates equally across all scales (ie. microscopic vs. macroscopic), which simply is not true. The cummulative effect of quantum mechanics is very predictable. For instance I do not exits at multiple places simultaneously, because I represent some equillibrium in the quantum spectrum (greatest orbital overlap).

As far as Joes comment is concerned, I have no idea what you are even trying to say... The stuff working the controlls is the stuff itself, and thus cannot have any comparative relation to itself.
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Joesus
post Sep 10, 2011, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 10, 2011, 10:56 PM) *

As far as Joes comment is concerned, I have no idea what you are even trying to say... The stuff working the controlls is the stuff itself, and thus cannot have any comparative relation to itself.

The stuff is only a reflection of a relative nature to that which created the stuff in the first place.

It's like saying your hand is controlling itself when you say the stuff working the controls is the stuff itself. That is only an observation of the hand as an entity in and of itself without the rest of the body and the mind that operates with it, and the consciousness which resides within the personalities and actions of the body and the hand. Consciousness is not bound to the body nor does it become or end with life and death of the body. The body becomes and ends because of consciousness.
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Flex
post Sep 11, 2011, 07:47 AM
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And why must there be creation in the first place? Why cannot stuff exist a priori to a conscious realization of the stuff?

Your statement on consciousness indicates to me that you do not believe in creation, but something more along the lines of the realm of the form. If this is the case, your perception is irrelevant as everything that has and ever will exist already does. Therefore, the stuff, and how it operates are one and the same.

Just because one may have been dipped in the river of forgetfulness does not mean some underlying reality exists and operates independent of the observer.
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Joesus
post Sep 11, 2011, 01:34 PM
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Conscious realization at what level? That of a child, an adult or an octogenarian living in a river of idealism or one who has awareness above and beyond the limitations of the human body?

The consciousness I am referring to is a priori to human identification with self conscious awareness as an individual separate from all the stuff.

Why does there have to be creation? There doesn't... at least not in the terms of human consciousness where some force unknown places human lives upon a background of stuff. The stuff that human self consciousness is connected to exists because of consciousness which is the stuff but also not the stuff. The stuff isn't the intelligence which brings the stuff into existence because it doesn't contain it. It only reflects it in its activity and it has always been and always will be.

Never said the stuff operates independent of the observer. Merely suggested the observer can be blind and without the sensibility to recognize anything outside of personal idealism and belief, which makes any supposition around the stuff, an answer to a question that has no reality other than what is imagined within the boundaries of belief and sensory disciplines that are personally idealized, rather than universal.
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Jakare
post Sep 11, 2011, 03:14 PM
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I was watching today my favourite science tv program which, what a coincidence, was about quantum physics. They were interviewing doctor Vlatko Vedral from Oxford university. He commented a couple of very interesting things.

First they talked about the "probably" involvement of some kind of quantum effect at photosyntesis reaction, followed by the existence in retine cells of some migratory birds of another quantum effect called "interlaced particles". Such effect implies the changes on one particle will affect the other one and by detecting little differences in such changes provoked by earth´s magnetic field they can control their latitude.
At the end he talked about a new theory by which the most elementary particles of reality being not energy nor matter but information bits and resolve that if such thing is true we (human kind) can declare ourselves free from biological determinism and destiny as the future is an open way we can force up to some still unknown extend. (Guys i love that program)

All that made me think the influence of quantum physics on normal physics is unavoidable if quantum reactions pass information to bigger particles on how they will behave (statistically talking) and that if quantum mechanism can be found in plants and animals therefore they should be working in humans aswell with more reason when we take into account "stuff" like conciousness.
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Flex
post Sep 11, 2011, 08:12 PM
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The belief that new fundamental forces will emerge as the Universe continues to cool is an interesting one as well.

Of course since all things are made of "fundamental particles" the way these operate will have an effect on the whole. The difference is that as you add more and more of these particles together, they act differently. Rather than a single particle acting independently, you get an integration of all particles acting in such a way, and experience something completely different, which obeys new rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_tunneling_microscope

When you look at the photos of the carbon nano tubes shown above, you do not see the quantum scale. You see something oddly similar to our ball and stick models of atoms. This is because you are not seeing a single instance, but the sum of many instances simultaneously aka the integration of instantaneous probabilities. It is not a physical object, it is a probability distribution that you are seeing. These are the orbital overlaps I am referring to when I speak of definite outcomes. Basically the outcome that will occur is that which has the greatest probability overlap. In some cases in biology, there are "mistakes" with enzymes, but these are predictable, and obey patterns. "Mistakes" occur at well defined rates, and represent an equilibrium between outcomes.
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Joesus
post Sep 12, 2011, 07:09 AM
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QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 12, 2011, 02:35 PM) *


He was no more hell bent on conspiracy then others are on expanding the mind or trying to figure out the mind. He just danced to a different drummer.

Everyone has an opinion kinda thing...

Obviously a person can put a judgment on anything and also claim to be completely objective and without any judgment. The world is always open to interpretation.

I like to think Enki wanted to drink at a watering hole as a cat with a pack of dogs, thinking he might convert the dogs into thinking they might be something else.
(MY interpretation of dancing to a different drummer.)
The dogs here were more interested in pulling the tail of of the cat as long as long as the cat was insisting the dogs change their language to cat speak. He was just as verbally abusive to the members here as they were to him. I tend to think he danced to the same drummer that perpetuates judgment and the actions that are seen as hell bent on taking a position.

He enjoyed taunting the dogs and got his tail bit off.

There are no victims.
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Flex
post Sep 12, 2011, 09:01 AM
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Precisely my thoughts Dianah. It is interesting to think of thought in such a way. Many people have done so. Some of my favorite quotes relate to this. The odds of hitting your target dramatically increase when you aim at it -Mal Pancoast smile.gif Unfortunately, experiences building on one another can be deleterious as well, such as in the case of drug addicts. The more you participate, the more likely you are to continue down the path.

My favorite analogy to use is a sailing expedition. One does not simple look at a compass and follow it blindly. One cannot just head West from Europe and hope to reach their destination in the United States. All along the way there are influences, currents and winds, that change the course of travel. The voyager must constantly make minor adjustments to redirect the ship on its course. We too, I believe, must act in a similar manner. If we do not have a goal in mind, and constantly reorient ourselves to that goal, we become victims (or benefactors) of our circumstance.

My hats off to Enki for keeping us all on our toes! Everyone knows I am a fan of his Cheshire grin. Certainly he is still here, and his influence is still felt. As we are all aware, the Cheshire Cat can vanish and appear as he pleases.
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Joesus
post Sep 12, 2011, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 12, 2011, 05:26 PM) *


There are victims as long as people believe that they are a victim. In essence there are no victims thou…but the perception of ‘there are no’ victims can get convoluted, and it can be used as an excuse to allow for any behavior.

Just because a person believes they are a victim does not make them a victim. It only creates illusions of victim consciousness and is a lack of clear perception.

Any excuse for behavior is still and excuse. Another illusion just like being a victim.

The analogy of Enki having his tail bitten off was in reference to his losing his privileges as a member of Brain-Meta. Undoubtedly he might find a catbox somewhere else to play in and leave his stuff.
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Flex
post Sep 12, 2011, 01:20 PM
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Alright the pit bull is coming out. Your statements have been very repetitive and contradictory. It seems you make new definitions to fit your agenda as needed.
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Jakare
post Sep 12, 2011, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 12, 2011, 04:35 PM) *


I agree Enki was focused on conspiracy however he did impart interesting messages that were veiled through seemingly nonsensical rhetoric. One just had to read between the lines.


The problem with reading between lines is you´re in danger of reading what you want to read instead of what was meant to mean.
Anyway I think moderators did what they thought was the best for Brainmeta.



QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 12, 2011, 04:35 PM) *

I found most of his posts a challenge to try to understand at one level or another


That´s exactly how i sometimes feel reading joesus´s posts. (that was a compliment ok? well sort of)


QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 12, 2011, 07:01 PM) *

the Cheshire Cat can vanish and appear as he pleases.

But i thought no one can apparate or dissapparate inside hogw...I mean inside brainmeta.
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Flex
post Sep 12, 2011, 03:01 PM
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Btw what happened to the cool dialogue trip actually started? Back to my last post about something that is not online gossip. Although I do love me some drama from time to time smile.gif
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