Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

BrainMeta.com Forum _ Expanding Consciousness _ God Is In The Magic Mushrooms

Posted by: Hey Hey Aug 07, 2006, 09:48 AM

http://sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

Posted by: BatineAcid Aug 07, 2006, 01:01 PM

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Aug 07, 01:48 PM) *

http://sfgate.com/columnists/morford/


Interesting article. I personally use Psilocybe sp. mushrooms as a sort of mental, physical, and spiritual cleansing. I never would have thought that I would ever consume the "magic mushrooms" that I had always heard about growing up in a serious manner until the first time I ingested them. As a student of chemistry, my mind was inundated by ideas of how this tryptamine-containing mushroom could possibly have such a profound effect on every aspect of my perception. The clarity of thought, the absolute dissolution of internal barriers, opened up so many new paths of thought. The mushroom experience truly connects one to onself, others, and one's environment. I have never felt as conscious, sober, and awake and appreciated so much as the hours after a psilocybin experience. And like the article states, these same understandings have been consistent throughout at least thousands of years of human ritualist use, not to mention the fact that even animals like mountain goats are known to eat them and proceed for hours to almost dance from rock to rock on the side of hills and mountains. Who knows how long the mammal-mushroom relationship has truely gone on. I believe there are even evolutionary implications of the existence of psilocybin containing mushrooms, including communication encouragement.

Posted by: rhymer Aug 07, 2006, 02:19 PM

My conclusion, having read the article is that anyone who has 'mind blowing' experiences after taking psylocybin (or any other psychedelic drug) would have the same experience if they took the 'right' antidepressant*.

I make this statement based on my own experience of taking about 15 types of AD's for depression.
Again, I just wish that writers would state just what these 'spiritual' experiences are.
I could easily call some of my experiences 'spiritual', but realise that just because they are amazing, unexpected and surprising does not mean that they are 'spiritual'.
The human brain when not working optimally, but accepted in its performance as the norm (ie., the same as everybody elses experiences in similar circumstances), is presumed to be supercharged when it starts working optimally (ie., the same as everybody elses experiences in similar circumstances).

*everyone reacts differently to different AD's. It requires experimentation to find the right AD per person.
This is not meant to be a critique on psylocybin; it's just a reflection of my own thoughts.

Posted by: Hey Hey Aug 07, 2006, 02:42 PM

agree with all said, rhymer.

strange time - moody blues - same effect.

Posted by: BatineAcid Aug 07, 2006, 03:03 PM

QUOTE(rhymer @ Aug 07, 06:19 PM) *

My conclusion, having read the article is that anyone who has 'mind blowing' experiences after taking psylocybin (or any other psychedelic drug) would have the same experience if they took the 'right' antidepressant*.

I make this statement based on my own experience of taking about 15 types of AD's for depression.
Again, I just wish that writers would state just what these 'spiritual' experiences are.
I could easily call some of my experiences 'spiritual', but realise that just because they are amazing, unexpected and surprising does not mean that they are 'spiritual'.
The human brain when not working optimally, but accepted in its performance as the norm (ie., the same as everybody elses experiences in similar circumstances), is presumed to be supercharged when it starts working optimally (ie., the same as everybody elses experiences in similar circumstances).

*everyone reacts differently to different AD's. It requires experimentation to find the right AD per person.
This is not meant to be a critique on psylocybin; it's just a reflection of my own thoughts.


I disagree completely, based on my experience with anti-depressants. I've tried four different anti-depressants over a period of 5 years. I also think antidepressants are completely irrelevant to the discussion. If you have never tried a tryptamine psychedelic such as psilocybin, like the article said, you will never understand. It is impossible to put into words the spiritual aspect, as it is intrinsic in the effects of the chemical's interaction with your brain. The rapid expansion of thought and completely unique perspective on everything is completely different than the effects of SSRI, SSNRI, and MAOI antidepressants. On top of that, psilocybin only requires one dose, lasting 4 hours, where as antidepressants require continuous dosing, etc, and usually aren't effective for several days or weeks.

Posted by: code buttons Aug 07, 2006, 05:02 PM

QUOTE(BatineAcid @ Aug 07, 03:03 PM) *

I disagree completely...

I agree to disagree completely with Rhymer. If that were the case, why are antidepressants legal? I was too young when I had my LSD experiences to think about anything other than party when I took it. So I never even try to have a spiritual experience. But I can understand how the door of opportunity for such experiences can open wide with LSD. LSD plays with your mind for 10 hours in a way impossible to duplicate or even remotely imitate with any legal man-made chemical compound out there. I've never taken anti-depressents in my life other than Xanax a couple of times for recreational purposes, and on both ocassions the only effect was that I fell asleep very comfortably for 10 hours.

Posted by: Hey Hey Aug 07, 2006, 06:40 PM

QUOTE(BatineAcid @ Aug 08, 12:03 AM) *

On top of that, psilocybin only requires one dose, lasting 4 hours, where as antidepressants require continuous dosing, etc, and usually aren't effective for several days or weeks.

you need to read more on antidepressants, of which there are numerous types, often working on different pathways. yes, usually the antidepressant effect takes weeks to reach an acceptable status, but we aren't talking about the antidepressant effect here ..... are we?

and try ECT (an antidepressant, though not a pharmaceutical in the usual sense), that in most cases has rather an immediate effect!

Posted by: egodeath Aug 08, 2006, 05:34 PM

The Entheogen Theory of Religion and Ego Death

The entheogen theory of religion holds that the main origin and ongoing wellspring of religion is visionary plants, such as Psilocybe mushrooms, Peyote, Ayahuasca combinations, Salvia divinorum, Cannabis, Opium, Henbane, Datura, Mandrake, Belladonna, ergot, and Amanita mushrooms.

Visionary plants have been commonly used around the world throughout the history of religion and culture (Hofmann, Schultes, & Ratsch 1992), including in the various forms of Western Esotericism (Heinrich 1994). Greek and Christian mythic-religious systems often refer to visionary plants (Ruck, Staples, & Heinrich 2001). Leading mystics throughout the history of various religions have used on-demand, visionary-plant sessions with rationality-oriented mystic-state experiencing (Merkur 2001).

Meditation, shamanic drumming, and liturgical ritual were developed as activities to do in the plant-induced dissociative state, not as methods of inducing the dissociative state in the first place.

http://egodeath.com/EntheogenTheoryOfReligion.htm

Posted by: Hey Hey Aug 08, 2006, 08:53 PM

QUOTE(egodeath @ Aug 09, 02:34 AM) *

The entheogen theory of religion holds that the main origin and ongoing wellspring of religion is visionary plants, such as Psilocybe mushrooms, Peyote, Ayahuasca combinations, Salvia divinorum, Cannabis, Opium, Henbane, Datura, Mandrake, Belladonna, ergot, and Amanita mushrooms.
http://egodeath.com/EntheogenTheoryOfReligion.htm

That and schizophrenia.

Posted by: Rick Aug 09, 2006, 10:07 AM

Schizophrenia is distinct from psychedelic ("entheogen") experience, and highly undesirable.

Posted by: Hey Hey Aug 09, 2006, 01:08 PM

QUOTE(Rick @ Aug 09, 07:07 PM) *

Schizophrenia is distinct from psychedelic ("entheogen") experience, and highly undesirable.

Schizophrenics commonly have religious visions, delusions and experiences:

http://www.bumc.bu.edu/Dept/Content.aspx?DepartmentID=481&PageID=10054

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11990010&dopt=Abstract

Some believe that schizophrenic experiences gave rise to religious beliefs in humans.

Posted by: Rick Aug 09, 2006, 02:26 PM

Leave it to the medical establishment to associate delusional states with spirituality.

Psychiatrists initially thought that the psychedelics mimiced psychosis (hence the false terms "psychotomimetic" (along with the other false term "hallucinogen")), but that erroneous view has long been debunked. Schizophrenia is distinct from psychedelia, despite some superficial similarities to outside observers.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 19, 2006, 07:48 AM

Hi, I believe that God really is in Magic Mushrooms, doesn't all religion say that God is everywhere and in everything? Mushrooms are the phallus of the mycelium network underground. Mycelium grows throughout soil and such like a spiders web, an intelligent spiders web. The Sun (light) sexually arouses the mycelium when it breaks though the soil. I say sexually because all you need to do is look at a mushroom and you will see it is a rudimentary phallus, one that carries the spores (seeds). It is a very basic form of life that creates huge super structures like our sky-scrapers, and its only function is to spread its seed.

The change of substrate from earth to air is the cause for the stimulation, and its this breaking through from one substrate to another that has always been seen as sacred. It is the reason that the Lotus is also sacred. That plant grows in the soil, grows up through the water and flowers on the surface. Our scientific achievements are all about rising up through our atmosphere or down through our oceans, it is the same process.

"power plants" were used as a sacrament in almost every religion, and a lot of the most potent hallucinogens, are still used in various organisations with legal protection. Eastern meditation has at its heart the message that everything is one, and all material reality is an illusion. From the dissolving of Ego one can experience the Divine from the piece that is sitting right behind their own eyes. Mushrooms and LSD are known for inducing spiritual states and the feeling that everything is one. Is it just a co-incidence?

Whatever you believe just remember that magic mushrooms are really a huge sky scraping phallus from one of Gods tiny creations. Anything that effects your mind gives you another view of the Divine behind your eyes. There is a lot of evidence that ancient cave art was inspired by these altered states and that religious belief and evolution was pushed along by the spirit within us and everything, including mushrooms and our Sun.

So I believe you ohmy.gif)

Posted by: cerebral Sep 19, 2006, 07:49 AM

dude, you live in a phallus-centric universe.

But there's more than phalluses to it.

And LSD is purely synthetic. Has nothing to do with phalluses or mushrooms.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 19, 2006, 08:02 AM

Actually dude, we all live in a phallus centric universe. Its the creational fire in physics, biology and celestial mechanics. Sex is the duality of force that drives everything, and so I used the sexual aspect because that alters peoples perceptions of a mushroom more dramatically than any other aspect.

LSD is purely synthetic, but the effects are so similar that it can't be ignored.

Posted by: Culture Sep 19, 2006, 12:15 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 19, 2006, 08:02 AM) *

Actually dude, we all live in a phallus centric universe. Its the creational fire in physics, biology and celestial mechanics. Sex is the duality of force that drives everything, and so I used the sexual aspect because that alters peoples perceptions of a mushroom more dramatically than any other aspect.

LSD is purely synthetic, but the effects are so similar that it can't be ignored.


See the avatar? :-)

There is a distinct difference between psilocybe and lysergic acid diethylamide.
Simply because substances are hallucinogenic does not make them or the effect similar.

Mesculine too is different from both of these and by far the most psychedelic.


Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 19, 2006, 12:45 PM

Yeah I recognise the differences, but the effect is the same, an inner "trip" which usually gives new perspective on your environment or yourself. Spirit quests and mystical experiences are no different to shamanic trances in what they entail, understanding, knowledge or a guide is gained. The little piece of a mathematical and psychedelic god is sitting behind your eyelids reading this as we speak is ingesting and reflecting information like a mirror or electrical speakers. We are but reflections of the ultimate reality which is invisible and driving the Universe and time etc. We are forever reflecting all our truths and sounds in the dance of Shiva or physics. The pattern of life is psychedelic and the mathematics of life is the Golden Ratio. The spiral effect it creates is happening on all levels, becoming ever more orderly as chaos theory predicts.

I am unable to comment on mescaline, but I believe the DMT within our own bodies may give the strongest evidence for things such diverse things as religous visions and UFO abductions. I've been looking into the root of religion, mathematics and consciousness for something I've been writing and feel that any substance growing on the planet which causes mystical and spiritual experiences is extremely important. It grew in abundance due to the large mammals on grasslands crapping cowpats everywhere, magic mushrooms favourite substrate.

I heard Terrence Mckenna speak about similar things and he mentioned a chemical in magic mushrooms that improves binocular rivalry - the left and right eye fighting in the brain. I didn't believe it but I managed to find the research online - do you realise how important that an evolutionary advantage it gave to eat these mushrooms? Then the fact that it heightens the observers experience so that bad things are evil, and good things are heavenly means it could have aided our formation of duality in religion. It can also gives full on spiritual experiences and means this little trippy fellow is a part of our history.

Our duality of belief was caused by our evolution in shamanic societies. The belief that everything is one is central to shamanism/animism and this is beginning to come true within the realm of physics where things have to be described by their effects on the environment. Everything becomes a web of the same basic blocks that somehow have formed into variations.

This is some context to why I believe the Magic Mushroom is an important cultural symbol, and why they are all Gods little children smile.gif

Posted by: solartrinity Jan 02, 2007, 05:49 AM

I have to say that taking magic mushrooms has been one of the most intense experiences in my life and the most life changing. I didnt know that what life was all about till i did my first trip. I could see so much more like air particles, new colours out of the spectrum our eyes can normally see, i felt like doors were being opened inside my brain allowing me to think and percieve in so many ways i never thought possible. I felt an understanding of life and the universe and everything and everything made sense for the trip on mushrooms i seemed to have the intellegence and ability to comprehend and understand why we are here and what life was i found out who i was and that not only am i me but i am also everything. I could feel as if i was everyone and everything all at the same time and percieved myself in everything and everyone all at the same time like I had tapped into universal consiousness and felt such a strong oneness as if i saw god, not as a person but as a united harmonic feeling of oneness of everything.

I was able to percieve at the world as if it was all made up of different vibrations of energy and made up of a never ending pattern that was like patterns similar to fractals. I could feel earth energy and aware that I was existing on a large living and breathing planet which had feelings and emitted a vibe of harmony and balance.

After taking mushrooms I saw life in a completely different way as if i had been born into a new world of understanding and perception. I looked at other people as if they were so blind to existance and followed thier planned out lives as the law and society dictated, the job, marriage, mortgage, cornflakes for brekfast, wash the car on sunday and relax on the 3 piece suite.

I felt like I had been given a glimpse of something so special and that my life wasnt to be rich and have the best of everything but to find peace and truth within my soul.

I have to say that drugs and mind altering substances are looked upon so wrongly in society and as a bad life threatening addiction. All i can say is why have the goverments banned them and made them illegal? Maybe its because they know we will see through the sh*t they are feeding us and change the world. You only have to read the rediculous criminal justice bill to see how scared they really are about any togetherness of people, loud music with rythmic beats and possession and taking of illicit substances. Music is also a way of finding yourself and also of tuning into enlightenment, rythmic beats have existed for years as a togetherness and celebration of harmony and life, how much further will society go till we realise?

Posted by: trojan_libido Jan 02, 2007, 08:22 AM

Trips open doors, sometimes to places you never wish to go again. But when you do come back, you are so grateful for the life you are given that it is worth the risk.

I think you only have to look at our mating and courting habits to see animal behaviour and modern shamanism. Dance and trance music, beer and sex, they're not at all related... /sarcasm Beer was a good drug to get us all drunk and have more kids, something that was required in prehistory. This isn't the case now, we're pushing the Earth to its population limits as it is.

Now we are entering areas in science that require us to think outside of our normal conscious perceptions. New ideas are always outside the realms of the norm, and with string theory and nano technology coming into fruition, we will require large leaps of science via even larger leaps of imagination, to pull off the really good tricks. Whats amusing is trying to figure out how many people of high standing were involved in the 60's movement, and how many are still being influenced - or even more amusing is the people who refuse to do any psychedelics because the thought police said its wrong.

We require a larger selection of psychoactives than beer and toxic cigarettes. Legal or not, when people see and experience the damage caused from beer and cigarettes, they automatically feel let down by those in authority and curious of the alternatives.

In a world that allows people to kick the hell out of each other in Ultimate Fighting, or put paralysing botox in their own faces in the ultimate expression of vanity, it is ridiculous that people aren't allowed to eat what the hell they like. The "drug" problem is not about the drug. Its about prohibition and not having an official ritual associated with these substances.

The mushroom is a brilliant example of a simple organism that sees the light and grows a phallus. Poetry in a cowpat.

Posted by: rhymer Jan 02, 2007, 04:23 PM

solartrinity said

"I have to say that taking magic mushrooms has been one of the most intense experiences in my life and the most life changing. I didnt know that what life was all about till i did my first trip. I could see so much more like air particles, new colours out of the spectrum our eyes can normally see, i felt like doors were being opened inside my brain allowing me to think and percieve in so many ways i never thought possible. I felt an understanding of life and the universe and everything and everything made sense for the trip on mushrooms i seemed to have the intellegence and ability to comprehend and understand why we are here and what life was i found out who i was and that not only am i me but i am also everything. I could feel as if i was everyone and everything all at the same time and percieved myself in everything and everyone all at the same time like I had tapped into universal consiousness and felt such a strong oneness as if i saw god, not as a person but as a united harmonic feeling of oneness of everything."

Whilst some people poo-pooed my post about antidepressants, I have to say that when I went onto AD's I could almost have written his words myself!!!
I thought I had died and been reborn into a new world!
Multiple consciousness and air particles would not have been written.

Posted by: solartrinity Jan 02, 2007, 05:16 PM

QUOTE(rhymer @ Jan 03, 2007, 12:23 AM) *

solartrinity said

"I have to say that taking magic mushrooms has been one of the most intense experiences in my life and the most life changing. I didnt know that what life was all about till i did my first trip. I could see so much more like air particles, new colours out of the spectrum our eyes can normally see, i felt like doors were being opened inside my brain allowing me to think and percieve in so many ways i never thought possible. I felt an understanding of life and the universe and everything and everything made sense for the trip on mushrooms i seemed to have the intellegence and ability to comprehend and understand why we are here and what life was i found out who i was and that not only am i me but i am also everything. I could feel as if i was everyone and everything all at the same time and percieved myself in everything and everyone all at the same time like I had tapped into universal consiousness and felt such a strong oneness as if i saw god, not as a person but as a united harmonic feeling of oneness of everything."

Whilst some people poo-pooed my post about antidepressants, I have to say that when I went onto AD's I could almost have written his words myself!!!
I thought I had died and been reborn into a new world!
Multiple consciousness and air particles would not have been written.


I have been on AD's for years but havent felt as amazing as i have on mushrooms, and im a female btw, not a he wink.gif

Emma
Solartrinity

Posted by: Hey Hey Jan 02, 2007, 09:53 PM

QUOTE(rhymer @ Jan 03, 2007, 12:23 AM) *

solartrinity said

"I have to say that taking magic mushrooms has been one of the most intense experiences in my life and the most life changing. I didnt know that what life was all about till i did my first trip. I could see so much more like air particles, new colours out of the spectrum our eyes can normally see, i felt like doors were being opened inside my brain allowing me to think and percieve in so many ways i never thought possible. I felt an understanding of life and the universe and everything and everything made sense for the trip on mushrooms i seemed to have the intellegence and ability to comprehend and understand why we are here and what life was i found out who i was and that not only am i me but i am also everything. I could feel as if i was everyone and everything all at the same time and percieved myself in everything and everyone all at the same time like I had tapped into universal consiousness and felt such a strong oneness as if i saw god, not as a person but as a united harmonic feeling of oneness of everything."

Whilst some people poo-pooed my post about antidepressants, I have to say that when I went onto AD's I could almost have written his words myself!!!
I thought I had died and been reborn into a new world!
Multiple consciousness and air particles would not have been written.

Very important point. I have had similar effects coming off ß-blockers! But of course, an individual's physiology and past/present psychology modulates the effects of any neuropharmaceutical.

Posted by: Hey Hey Jan 02, 2007, 10:01 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 19, 2006, 03:48 PM) *
Hi, I believe that God really is in Magic Mushrooms
Read widely and you will find that mushrooms are members of but one kingdom that has organisms that produce hallucinogens, not least the Planta. And note, the wonderful Morning Glory, for example, has no appearance of a fallus. Rather it is a beautiful flower. So you can keep your Stinkhorns, I prefer the Baby Woodrose (http://babywoodrose.com/).

Posted by: trojan_libido Jan 03, 2007, 05:21 AM

Im aware there is more than one type of hallucinogen. Datura, Blue Lotus, many different household flowers containing LSA, poisonous frogs, nutmeg, cactus. I've also tried everything except deliriums like datura, and im friendly to frogs so they're off the menu.

What I mean to say is i feel the concept of "god" is within the mushroom, but not exclusive to the mushroom. smile.gif

Posted by: simon Jan 10, 2007, 01:11 PM

What is this God thing that you write of ?

Posted by: trojan_libido Mar 05, 2007, 02:08 AM

It is the thing that just wrote your post. It is the expression we've all been blessed with.

Posted by: webby Aug 11, 2007, 05:09 AM

Salvia Divinorum

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 14, 2007, 11:40 AM

What about it? smile.gif

Posted by: atha Aug 20, 2007, 06:49 AM

Have you read about The Blue Pearl experience of Swami Muktananda ? About Bindu -- Nila Bindu, as the doorway to the Absolute ?

Posted by: rhymer Aug 20, 2007, 01:07 PM

I have tried no hallucinogens (unless someone popped me a pill sometime).
I find reality hard enough to comprehend, but still believe that God can only be found in the Temple (or behind it).
Choose your own area of brain matter that qualifies.

The absolute defined:-

Adjective: absolute
1. Perfect or complete or pure
2. Complete and without restriction or qualification; sometimes used informally as intensifiers
3. Not limited by law
4. Expressing finality with no implication of possible change
5. Not capable of being violated or infringed

Noun: absolute
1. Something that is conceived or that exists independently and not in relation to other things; something that does not depend on anything else and is beyond human control; something that is not relative

[WordWeb.info]

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 23, 2007, 01:17 AM

Hallucinogens can only give you a first hand look at the way your biological body is processing information, and a second hand look at how the brain fantasises based "sometimes" on this information. The fact mystical experiences can be attained using many methods including entheogens is almost proof that God is consciousness itself, in matter or spirit. This is why I believe God is in the Magic Mushroom.

Posted by: Rick Aug 23, 2007, 03:11 PM

And also in the Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds?

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 23, 2007, 11:31 PM

Yes, and the Morning Glory flower which has, interestingly enough, very apt names for the varieties with the highest alkaloid content:

Heavenly Blues, Pearly Gates, and Flying Saucers.

Compare Pearly Gates with San Pedro (Mescaline cacti sacrament) which is Spanish for St. Peter, guardian of the Gates of Heaven. Also Flying Saucers and the possible link between altered states, OBE's etc. and the abduction phenomenon. See wiki for pages on endogenous DMT and Abduction phenomenon.

Posted by: Enki Aug 24, 2007, 02:39 AM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Aug 23, 2007, 11:31 PM) *

Yes, and the Morning Glory flower which has, interestingly enough, very apt names for the varieties with the highest alkaloid content:

Heavenly Blues, Pearly Gates, and Flying Saucers.

Compare Pearly Gates with San Pedro (Mescaline cacti sacrament) which is Spanish for St. Peter, guardian of the Gates of Heaven. Also Flying Saucers and the possible link between altered states, OBE's etc. and the abduction phenomenon. See wiki for pages on endogenous DMT and Abduction phenomenon.


Some memory failure, parallel memory yap?
Interesting indeed.

Posted by: Enki Aug 24, 2007, 02:45 AM

Science is a great thing indeed:

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases.

Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid and reptilian in nature, in technological environments[4] where the subjects were 'probed', 'tested' and sometimes even 'manipulated' by these 'beings' (see Abduction phenomenon). However, it is important to note that Dr. Strassman's patients were given DMT in a hospital, under observation, while a probe was in their anus to record changes in body temperature.

About the Transformers:

Writers on DMT include Terence McKenna and Jeremy Narby, though most scientists who study psychedelic drugs treat their writings with skepticism. McKenna writes of his experiences with DMT in which he encounters entities he describes as "Self-Transforming Machine Elves".

Wiki has such a great power.

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 24, 2007, 03:19 AM

After having a minimal experience with DMT, ie tiny dose (see http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17080&pid=80619&st=0&#entry80619), i can understand what is meant by machine elves. The closed eyed imagery is profoundly fluid, mathematical and silvery. It's certainly a stream of sorts, and I can imagine any form taking shape and giving the impression of telepathy. Since I consider myself a psychonaut I will definately be doing this again in higher dose and more ritual setting.

For another example of a similar phenomenon, check out writings on the Salvia Goddess. Same concept but different chemical, which is why I believe its entirely probable that endogenous hallucinogens are responsible for all visitations in history. The fact we have taken these ideas and ran with them shows they have indeed been guiding us.

Posted by: Enki Aug 24, 2007, 06:13 AM

Interesting. But please be careful during such experiments.
Gradually mankind will approach to understanding of such
complex phenomena as one you describe. And I am sure that they are numerous
and have very diversified options. Some real some fantastic.
This new science I call Cybernetic Physics.
But it is better not to advertise that, because if all decide to take the
Red pills of Morpheus we will get serious energetic problem. laugh.gif
I am sorry for usage of the cinematographic terminology.

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 24, 2007, 06:23 AM

I always take care during any "experiments" I undertake. Self analysis and creativity is the main reason I dabble in such things, but its very rare I do it more than once a year.

Posted by: Enki Aug 24, 2007, 06:30 AM

No doubt about Dr. Faustus. wink.gif

Nullius in verba.

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 24, 2007, 07:19 AM

Which one Enki, the original legend of Faust and his damnation or the updated Goethes Faust with the Lord stepping in to save his soul? smile.gif

"On the words of no one" certainly sums up my interest in the hallucinogens. Theres a thin veil between conciousness and dreaming, and I believe the fantastical parts of our humanity are actually aspects of the glue that holds rational though together wink.gif

Posted by: Enki Aug 25, 2007, 05:47 AM

I just was meaning a philosopher-scientist who is ready to cross boarders to discover what is out there.

It is really very interesting subject. I have collected a lot of info related with the subject and think that the phenomena is very diversified. Hope one day to publish some ideas under my real name. wink.gif

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 25, 2007, 11:52 AM

Excellent Enki, I really hope that society breaks through this "drugs are bad m'kay" attitude and realises that everything we put in our mouths, on our bodies and even into our minds has a major effect on the world we're living in. The importing of sugar was a MAJOR factor in setting up a lot of trade routes and furthering our exploration of the world. This sugar has found its way into almost all processed foods and the amount of candy consumed worldwide is staggering.

I think that the speed of change in our culture is indirectly related to the change in our diets. Its no wonder our childrens attention spans are getting shorter when you give some thought about their diets and the amount of quickfire programs and adverts they're subjected to. Kids want things RIGHT NOW! T.V. is the centre of most living rooms and we've yet to really study or acknowledge the fact almost all of humanity is now seeing realities and knowledge that 50 years ago would only be available in books.

Hallucinogens bring images of mentally ill patients bouncing off hospital padded walls, which in almost every case is just not true. Even the shape of the molecules are in most cases very very similar to seratonin, and without belief we couldn't/wouldn't be able to do anything with these biological bodies of ours. Its all very fascinating to me, but maybe i'm damaged from all the LSD I did as a teen smile.gif

Posted by: Enki Aug 28, 2007, 12:56 AM

>Even the shape of the molecules are in most cases very very similar to seratonin

it is very important argument btw.

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 28, 2007, 11:23 AM

Has anyone ever experienced a feeling of oneness or complete calm, or a flash of clarity in which everything seems possible? If so I'd like to know if it was meditation or an entheogen, situation etc. This is relevant to what the mushroom has done for culture and our religious history.

Posted by: Orbz Aug 28, 2007, 07:26 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Aug 29, 2007, 03:23 AM) *

Has anyone ever experienced a feeling of oneness or complete calm, or a flash of clarity in which everything seems possible? If so I'd like to know if it was meditation or an entheogen, situation etc. This is relevant to what the mushroom has done for culture and our religious history.

Yes, it was a strange experience that lasted about an hour. It was not caused directly by anything, but around that time I was doing a lot of meditative work (tai chi/qigong) but nothing of note immediately preceding the experience. Everything seemed to be interconnected in some way shape or form and everything felt as though everything was how it was meant to be.

Posted by: Enki Aug 28, 2007, 08:53 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Aug 28, 2007, 11:23 AM) *

Has anyone ever experienced a feeling of oneness or complete calm, or a flash of clarity in which everything seems possible? If so I'd like to know if it was meditation or an entheogen, situation etc. This is relevant to what the mushroom has done for culture and our religious history.


Yes, such thing happens.
Neither of the numbered.
That happens after hard and satisfactory intellectual work.

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 30, 2007, 12:00 AM

Did you feel changed or refreshed from the experience Orbz, did it make you look for similar reports in history or online? It certainly did for me although my experience was triggered through an hallucinogen and a deep chat on existence. The only natural comparison I can make is when I first became a father (not the birth, the realisation), my mindset was altered as soon as I had a purpose.

Posted by: Orbz Aug 30, 2007, 12:22 AM

I didn't really feel changed, maybe a bit refreshed, the experience was certainly enjoyable. I think it probably didn't do change me so much because the experience was completely synonymous with my world view at the time, so it didn't need to change anything. I mostly just noted it as an experience I had, which would probably come around again. It was similar in some ways to an LSD trip, but without the overly strong bodily sensations or visual distortions and with more clear headedness and empathic feelings than on LSD.

A similar experience I had felt as though I was on low dose mdma for about 4-5 days. Again a drug free experience full of empathic feelings for people but in a completely calm state of mind, and no time distortion or feelings of 'I need to do something' that you get on ecstasy which could be probably be the adulterated amphetamine in the pill. I have to some extent figured out how to recreate this type of experience through mental focus/meditation. Although it seems to be far better and lasts longer when it just sneaks up on you, it can be hard work.

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 30, 2007, 01:03 AM

Naturally occuring altered states are almost always more satisfying and more valid than their chemical counterparts in my opinion. Pure MDMA is still being used in psychotherapy as far as I know, allowing the drugs obvious effects (empathy, love etc) to work their magic in councelling is probably the most intelligent thing the medical world has done since that awful banning of LSD because it was challenging everyday tax payers and religious types.

Posted by: code buttons Aug 30, 2007, 02:37 AM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Aug 24, 2007, 06:23 AM) *

I always take care during any "experiments" I undertake. Self analysis and creativity is the main reason I dabble in such things, but its very rare I do it more than once a year.

Yea, right! You'd be lying if you told me that you're not also having a helova good time!

Posted by: trojan_libido Aug 30, 2007, 03:38 AM

To be honest, I rarely have a "helova good time" whilst on any hallucinogen. I have a love/hate relationship with these substances that is almost sadistic, curiosity and awe seem to be my main motivation smile.gif

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 03, 2007, 08:29 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Aug 28, 2007, 12:23 PM) *

Has anyone ever experienced a feeling of oneness or complete calm, or a flash of clarity in which everything seems possible? If so I'd like to know if it was meditation or an entheogen, situation etc.


I feel meditation is important when integrating the psychedelic experience into every day life. Every time I use an entheogen I meditate before and after. This allows for cultivation of awareness into everyday life. It allows me to transcend attachment to lower third-dimensional ego consciousness into higher more expanded states of awareness/being.

Taking psychedelics alone without meditation would not be nearly as effective IME. All information and energy and understanding received during such an experience would be lost to the fog of the conditioned mind.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 03, 2007, 11:43 PM

QUOTE
It allows me to transcend attachment to lower third-dimensional ego consciousness into higher more expanded states of awareness/being.

Altered states induced by drugs is not a transcended state of consciousness. What you are attempting to delude yourself with is the ego's belief in transcended states of consciousness which is not something that you visit on occasion or with the help of some chemical process.

QUOTE

Taking psychedelics alone without meditation would not be nearly as effective IME. All information and energy and understanding received during such an experience would be lost to the fog of the conditioned mind.

Effective meditation is a progressive movement toward permanent expansion of conscious awareness, which by the way in its early stages is rarely free from the influence of the ego unless you are enlightened already. Taking drugs creates scarring in the natural pathways that allow the mind and body to connect naturally, making it more difficult to naturally achieve communion with the absolute. Anyone in an expanded state of awareness would never compromise their ability to commune with the absolute by taking drugs of any kind.
Taking drugs actually stresses the nervous system which has to be cleared and unraveled before the mind and body can return to its natural state.

Unless you can transcend the drugs before taking them (which would preclude the insanity of taking the drug in the first place in the attempt to further delude yourself in the belief that you can permanently expand consciousness by taking drugs of any kind) drugs will have the opposite effect of any comprehensive meditation.

With drugs altered states are random and unpredictable. With the discipline of meditation and the removal of stress from the nervous system the permanent relationship of the awareness with the absolute is stable, permanent and predictable as one becomes more aware of reality.
The only thing predicable about taking drugs is that you will experience something different when you take them and it will take more of the drug to achieve something even similar to the time before.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 04, 2007, 12:14 AM

QUOTE
which would preclude the insanity of taking the drug in the first place
This is purely your opinion Joesus, the fact of the matter is these substances are of major importance to understanding our own nature and the process that leads to mystical experiences. These hallucinations can happen naturally, as I've experienced. If you were my priest you'd have probably jumped to the conclusion I was possessed by some kind of demons then had me cleansed with fire...

Posted by: Joesus Sep 04, 2007, 07:11 AM

QUOTE
These hallucinations can happen naturally

If it's an Hallucination then is it natural? Yes Anyone can hallucinate, in fact that is probably closer to the reality of the waking state mind which is steeped in beliefs and mental conditioning.
What is natural for the mind and body in expanded states of consciousness is not induced by chemically altered states that are temporary and inconsistent.

QUOTE
If you were my priest you'd have probably jumped to the conclusion I was possessed by some kind of demons then had me cleansed with fire...
But I'm not a priest, and I'm not inclined to believe that superstitious assumptions rallied around the manipulation of the mind with hallucinogens is the scientific foundation for the discovery of God or the equal of enlightened mind-body chemistry.

QUOTE
the fact of the matter is these substances are of major importance to understanding our own nature and the process that leads to mystical experiences.

Mystical experiences are for mystics, those who barely understand the reality in the physical, have a tough time dealing with their physical experience and spend a lot of time attempting to merge the physical in the projections of their best guess of what exists outside their own beliefs.
The reality of this is that when it is all said and done, and the mind comes to realize that altered states are derivatives of stress and chemically induced altered states of consciousness, and can only point the way to what is much more clear when the body is cleared of stress, the mind is cleared of stress, one naturally expands ones self into a stable reality that exists and underlies the mental and physical conditioning of illusions created by beliefs and fantasy.

If you want to understand the reality of your True permanent nature does it really make sense to believe that you would be a hallucination, or something that is temporary, inconsistant and impermanent?

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 04, 2007, 02:28 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 04, 2007, 12:43 AM) *

Altered states induced by drugs is not a transcended state of consciousness. What you are attempting to delude yourself with is the ego's belief in transcended states of consciousness which is not something that you visit on occasion or with the help of some chemical process.


maybe you should realize your own delusions.

mushrooms connect us with nature, with ourselves. you are a fool if you believe the ego cannot be transcended through entheogens and meditation combined. i have expanded 4 feet out of my body in all directions on lsd. i have experienced multi-dimensional conscious awareness out of body experiences on high doses of ketamine while the sun was coming up. this is not my ego's belief, this is an experience. it would be a delusion to deny the experience, and deny the fact that I transcended attachment to mind/body.

just because mushrooms are external, or induce some "chemical process", does not mean it is not natural and delusional. absolutely rediculous. we are connected with the earth, we use the earth's tools to connect with ourselves. obviously you are ignorant of what goes on within a shaman in the amazon when he ingests ayahuasca.

Plants contain something which could be called a spirit, or soul, or some consciousness. When I ingest such a plant I have the feeling that this part of the planet heals us. My own consciousness attracts itself, through you.


QUOTE
Effective meditation is a progressive movement toward permanent expansion of conscious awareness, which by the way in its early stages is rarely free from the influence of the ego unless you are enlightened already.


I agree, this is why I stated it is important to integrate the entheogenic experience with meditation.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 04, 2007, 10:01 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 04, 2007, 08:11 AM) *

QUOTE
These hallucinations can happen naturally

If it's an Hallucination then is it natural? Yes Anyone can hallucinate, in fact that is probably closer to the reality of the waking state mind which is steeped in beliefs and mental conditioning.
What is natural for the mind and body in expanded states of consciousness is not induced by chemically altered states that are temporary and inconsistent.


just because some experiences are caused by chemical reactions in the brain does not mean it is not natural. the brain is made up of chemicals, adding chemicals to the mix is not adding something unnatural. everything is natural to some extent, hallucinations are natural because we are natural beings and everything we experience is natural. it is our interpretation that is illusion. all experience is real. the
experiences induced from entheogens is not all chemical, this is absurd. it is a combination with the earths tools and our awareness/brain which allows us to transcend body and connect with the earth.

altered states induced by entheogens DO NOT have to be temporary and inconsistent. this is why i mentioned before that it is important to INTEGRATE the experiences with meditation so more awareness/understanding/information can be accessed and received during the sober state.


Mystical experiences are for mystics, those who barely understand the reality in the physical, have a tough time dealing with their physical experience and spend a lot of time attempting to merge the physical in the projections of their best guess of what exists outside their own beliefs.

saying mystics do not understand the reality of the physical is absurd and completely ignorant. first of all you are using a label to describe something which should have no label. second, you do not know all mystics and what they know/experience. stop assuming you do, this is delusion and illusion and manifestation of lower dimensional ego self.


If you want to understand the reality of your True permanent nature does it really make sense to believe that you would be a hallucination, or something that is temporary, inconsistant and impermanent?

consciousness expansion, NDE, OBE, astral travel, healing induced through entheogens+meditation is not a hallucination. it is a real experience. i have hallucinated and i have experienced more expanded things. maybe you haven't, if you haven't experienced then you would have no idea. absolutely none.

good day!

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 04, 2007, 11:10 PM

light information is something we can tune into with or without catalysts such as the sacred shroom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J1lfWjOaCs&v3

Posted by: simon Sep 05, 2007, 06:17 AM

Has anyone else noticed that there does seem to be an obvious Sun-God-Serotonin-Tryptamine connection here?

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 05, 2007, 06:46 AM

Yes Simon, some of us have. Others who have only read of such experiences doubt it, others who have only had naturally enduced experiences doubt it, and finally the small majority who have had both
natural experiences and artificially enduced experiences see there is a strong similarity in both, but favour the natural.

What I see though is a society that doesn't want the majority to experience ego dissolution, either to keep power or to keep the majority behaving like sheep. If feeling Nirvana or the like is all that, then why are so many people threatened by peoples attempts to reach it?

Posted by: simon Sep 05, 2007, 10:07 AM

I'm not sure we need to be rid of ego's, maybe they just need to be put into perspective and/or evolved abit.

Sunlight induces serotonin production and most psychedelics have serotonin as a key core structure. Serotonin tends to make one feel rather more amiable and cooperative. The pineal gland has a direct link to light in function maybe that is the rational as to the "third eye" reference in yogic texts.
The Sun has been worshiped for ever, no need to state it's importants anymore here but the link to oneness is via serotonin interests me in a psycho-chemical-religious way.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 05, 2007, 10:27 AM

QUOTE
mushrooms connect us with nature, with ourselves.

No you believe a mushroom can do what you yourself cannot without the placebo.
QUOTE
you are a fool if you believe the ego cannot be transcended through entheogens and meditation combined.

Altered state of mind experiences are not experiences that expand the conscious awareness and transcend the ego permanently. Experiences are experiences and they come and go. Your emotional response eludes to the ego still being alive and well as it defends itself and its belief.

QUOTE
just because some experiences are caused by chemical reactions in the brain does not mean it is not natural. the brain is made up of chemicals, adding chemicals to the mix is not adding something unnatural.

So now you are omniscient and can do a better job of scrambling your brain chemicals with this excuse rather than transcending limitations at will?

QUOTE
saying mystics do not understand the reality of the physical is absurd and completely ignorant. first of all you are using a label to describe something which should have no label.
You mean like mystical experiences?

QUOTE
you do not know all mystics and what they know/experience. stop assuming you do,

I've never heard of a mystic who is dependent on an external chemical to have a mystical experience, making a claim to being able to transcend reality on their own natural will power? I have however heard them (like yourself) make excuses for their dependence on their outside source and, making claims to this dependence being natural

QUOTE
consciousness expansion, NDE, OBE, astral travel, healing induced through entheogens+meditation is not a hallucination. it is a real experience. i have hallucinated and i have experienced more expanded things. maybe you haven't, if you haven't experienced then you would have no idea. absolutely none.

Yes expansion of consciousness has its experiences as do altered states which produce experiences that one may not normally have on their own, but when it comes to something that is permanently expanded and opens the mind to the ability to transcend the illusions of the ego NDE's OBE's astral projections and lucid dreams are experiences that may reveal certain aspects of the infinite and its possibilities but they do not free the mind from its beliefs and render the ego to its best service above and beyond attachment to identities of the self and the unboundedness of God.
Experiences come and go and often you are left with a memory that may seem lasting but they (memories) degrade after time.
Enlightenment does not deteriorate with time and there is no need to feed its growth with addictive habits.

Posted by: Rick Sep 05, 2007, 11:23 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 05, 2007, 11:27 AM) *
... Enlightenment does not deteriorate with time and there is no need to feed its growth with addictive habits.

What if you stopped meditating?

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 05, 2007, 12:30 PM

QUOTE
No you believe a mushroom can do what you yourself cannot without the placebo.
A magic mushroom is definately not a placebo, how can it be? There is no effect that is exactly like it anywhere.
QUOTE
... Enlightenment does not deteriorate with time and there is no need to feed its growth with addictive habits.
Also Joesus, this statement is wrong because I've not seen one indication that hallucinogens are addictive, they have a self regulating scare-your-ass off quality if taken constantly. Many of them have a super fast tolerance build up which means you are physically unable to get high more than once every few days.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 05, 2007, 07:38 PM

QUOTE

What if you stopped meditating?

Meditation is a tool, not the source of ones being.
Even of one turns their conscious awareness from the essence of themselves to follow some delusional thought, the reality of ones being does not really go anywhere, which is why one can find within themselves the reality of their being in the first place. It really takes no time at all with commitment and focus to glimpse the reality of the Self. The meditative process only facilitates the natural ability to become more familiar with that which underlies all experience, and as such one becomes less addicted to any kind of experience and becomes more stable in that which supports all experiences.

QUOTE
A magic mushroom is definately not a placebo, how can it be? There is no effect that is exactly like it anywhere.

The people who lean on an external source to gain what is inside of themselves, give to their icons or their devices of manipulation more power than they believe they have within, and as such find it necessary to turn to something other than their own inner strength because they have no faith in themselves and their ability to create the experience without it. The conditioning one sets within their own mind on the outer dependence is illusory same as a placebo.

Those who claim to have glimpsed the essence of who they are under the influence of some kind of drug are likely to make a similar claim to where they are going if they were to drive down a road blindfolded and take a picture out of the window at some random moment on their journey, then develop the picture after several years to say this is where I was going after really never experiencing or knowing what they are seeing.

QUOTE
Also Joesus, this statement is wrong because I've not seen one indication that hallucinogens are addictive, they have a self regulating scare-your-ass off quality if taken constantly. Many of them have a super fast tolerance build up which means you are physically unable to get high more than once every few days.

The addiction is relative to the dependence on external sources of strength power and manipulation, to achieve something one believes they are connected to but cannot achieve on their own.
Society in general is addicted to their beliefs in the illusions they create outside of themselves. Using Drugs or alcohol to create the experiences of strength and clarity is pretty common in the stressed environment of the waking state world.
There is no tolerance build up to the natural progression of expanding consciousness, but there are signposts in the twisting of experiences and the projections one makes about who and what they are based on the inconsistencies in the hallucinations one has while taking drugs or alcohol.
The Ego can always justify itself with any crutch it uses to identify itself, but in the end it still boils down to the same thing.
Anytime someone decides they need something external to make themselves whole isn't grasping the magnificence of who they really are.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 06, 2007, 06:12 AM

QUOTE
The conditioning one sets within their own mind on the outer dependence is illusory same as a placebo.

I think some of your analogies are just plain wrong, its much easier to say "oops, maybe I wasn't totally thinking and meant something else" than post all that nonsense.

I could just as easily describe meditation as a tool. It alters the brain in fundamental ways, it makes you 'spaced' out and a 'god botherer'. Just because your tools are techniques and others are entheogens does not make your way better than anothers way. Wherever you find personal truth and happiness is where you should head.

QUOTE
Anytime someone decides they need something external to make themselves whole isn't grasping the magnificence of who they really are.
What about the little cult you run Joesus? Isn't that people taking in something external to belong and feel whole? Context is important.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 06, 2007, 08:06 AM

QUOTE

I think some of your analogies are just plain wrong, its much easier to say "oops, maybe I wasn't totally thinking and meant something else" than post all that nonsense.

Or you could say oops I guess I wasn't looking at it the way you were and seeing a bigger picture regarding the conditioning that takes hold within the identification on puts one external sources of power and authority.

As you say context is important, and understanding context leads to correct understanding and use of the principle forces of nature.
QUOTE

I could just as easily describe meditation as a tool.

You would then be speaking towards the truth but not necessarily grasping the reality of what that means
QUOTE
It alters the brain in fundamental ways, it makes you 'spaced' out and a 'god botherer'.

That would be the misunderstanding I was speaking of. The belief that meditation could make someone be certain way disregards the reality and awareness of choice

QUOTE
Just because your tools are techniques and others are entheogens does not make your way better than anothers way. Wherever you find personal truth and happiness is where you should head.

The personal choice thing is what everyone is imbued with, however not all roads lead to the same place. You make take several roads and detours to reach the same place as you could by going straight to where you want to go.
People are capable of making the choices they want to make according to what they believe is truth for them. I have no problem whether someone wants to use drugs. Using the tool that is most effective is sometimes preceded by wisdom and instruction. If one is taught to pound in a nail with a screwdriver without learning about how to use a hammer or without the knowledge of what a hammer is then the screwdriver method would seem most logical.

What I do know is that there is wisdom, knowledge and experience regarding the expansion of consciousness and it does speak of ways that are natural, effective and without side effects or immunities that occur when depending on external sources such as drugs.

As I said before altered states of consciousness reached by drugs are like taking a picture while being blind to the reality you are in and projecting an idea that what is developed represents something of value. Whatever glimpse you get will be more likely to reflect your subconscious beliefs rather than a clear example of what lies beyond them.
There is more to what we are than could ever be represented in the interpretations of a few random glimpses into a distorted view through a hallucination.

QUOTE
What about the little cult you run Joesus? Isn't that people taking in something external to belong and feel whole? Context is important.


Context is important. Which is what this conversation is about. God cannot be manufactured, and so any force one uses to manufacture a god or experience of something that is labeled as God is going to reveal itself in the face of Truth.
There are certain consistencies that resonate at the level of the heart and go beyond the needs of the ego or intellect to justify ones reasons for choice.
Generally speaking everyone knows what is inside of them but not everyone wants to acknowledge that truth because of the addictions to the external experiences they have and crave. The ego seeks constant entertainment within its boundaries of understanding but when one reaches greater understanding there is no external tool or placebo that can replace the strength that exists within ones self.

Posted by: Rick Sep 06, 2007, 10:14 AM

I don't know, but if I had to guess, I would say that Joesus probably has psychedelic experience and has moved on past that phase.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 06, 2007, 10:47 AM

Which might lead to the question or opinion of whether I had enough, too much or not enough? ohmy.gif wink.gif

Posted by: Rick Sep 06, 2007, 12:06 PM

Not to me. As you indicate, you have no need for more.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 06, 2007, 12:10 PM

Well I wasn't really thinking about you when I said that.

Posted by: Rick Sep 06, 2007, 12:56 PM

Fair enough.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 06, 2007, 07:49 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 05, 2007, 11:27 AM) *

No you believe a mushroom can do what you yourself cannot without the placebo.


I don't believe, I experience. Big difference there. When my third eye is activated, labelling this experience as placebo is absurd. Obviously you have not experienced so there is no need for me to say anymore. Continue trying to prove your beliefs, because thats all they are. Experience is completely different. Bless the egomaniac.


Altered state of mind experiences are not experiences that expand the conscious awareness and transcend the ego permanently.

You need to concentrate more on what I have said previously. Of course they do not allow you to transcend the ego permanently. They give you an understanding of the ego, which helps you to transcend it with meditation.

Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate.

There is no need for me to go on, I know the difference between my beliefs and my experience. Belief/ego/body is 3rd/4th dimensional and the others of which I am speaking of are 5th and 6th dimensional, big difference and easy to observe. My experiences are only imagination to you, so of course everything I say can be considered ego based. Those who have not experienced my depth only perceive a reflection of their lower self.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 06, 2007, 09:15 PM

QUOTE

I don't believe, I experience. Big difference there.

In your case not really.
QUOTE
When my third eye is activated, labelling this experience as placebo is absurd.

It's not the experience I was referring to, it was your need for the mushroom that you give strength to, and the belief that you cannot achieve such an experience by yourself without it.
The experience and your belief that your third eye is open is altogether a different and more humorous subject.

QUOTE
Obviously you have not experienced so there is no need for me to say anymore.

There wasn't a need for you to say anything in the first place other than to defend your belief so that it might seem more real to you.

QUOTE
Continue trying to prove your beliefs, because thats all they are. Experience is completely different. Bless the egomaniac.

Experience is something...., and I applaud to the experience or rather the ability to transcend reality without a need for external chemicals to scramble the more than capable human nervous system when it is not filled with so much stress and belief in limitations.

QUOTE
You need to concentrate more on what I have said previously. Of course they do not allow you to transcend the ego permanently. They give you an understanding of the ego, which helps you to transcend it with meditation.
Really your just making an excuse for taking hallucinogens. One could learn about the ego very effectively without taking anything to alter ones state of mind and create a chemical dependency to project an experience of life beyond duality.

QUOTE
Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate.

Using your reasoning I expect you have tried all forms of meditation and means of self discipline, and.... have full knowledge of where you are going to make such assumptions regarding your progress.
Anyone can toot their own horn and make claims to experience themselves having reached expanded states of awareness. Only one who has traveled that road would be able to tell whether another has really accomplished such a task. Also anyone can make claims to having done something in a crowd that has no knowledge of a subject.

QUOTE

There is no need for me to go on, I know the difference between my experience and my beliefs.

You said something to the effect of not needing to go on in a previous sentence but you seem to find reason to go on anyway..I would say that you can't really keep track of your experiences and your beliefs if you have to repeat yourself.

QUOTE
My experiences are only imagination to you, so of course everything I say can be considered ego based. Those who have not experienced my depth only perceive a reflection of their lower self.

I'm experiencing something...., rolleyes.gif and if it were beyond ego I think it would be more of a reflection of my higher self. But I think your statement is more accurate. It is definately something of a different flavor.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 06, 2007, 11:16 PM

Belief and actual experience are two very different things. No one is saying we need the shroom, only that it can shake a non-religious/spiritual person into the realisation of the reasons behind religion. This gives the person the experience, then they can do what they like with that understanding, but you can guarantee their interest in natural methods will be peaked.

Without entheogens it would be extremely rare to find a person who naturally experiences mystical states without the tools such as meditation or entheogens. They are as rare as prophets and messiahs have always been. Therefore the experience brings a new light, new direction, and is a catalyst to real knowledge of who we are. This is not to say shrooms should be taken by everyone everyday, but it is extremely valuable.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 07, 2007, 07:23 AM

QUOTE
No one is saying we need the shroom

This statement eludes to the belief that he/she couldn't have achieved their present state of mind without it.
"Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate."
This statement ignores thousands of years of spiritual practice without the use of entheogens in favor of a personal belief.

I don't deny the ritual practice of shamanic inebriants. When mankind loses its awareness of its own natural abilities it often turns to devices of mental manipulation to glimpse a keyhole view of the reality that lies beyond the mental barriers of conditioning and limitation, but the means are less affective and more often like throwing darts at a target blindfolded and from 100 yards away. The ego often believes it can master reality from a state of ignorance.

QUOTE

Without entheogens it would be extremely rare to find a person who naturally experiences mystical states without the tools such as meditation or entheogens. They are as rare as prophets and messiahs have always been. Therefore the experience brings a new light, new direction, and is a catalyst to real knowledge of who we are. This is not to say shrooms should be taken by everyone everyday, but it is extremely valuable.

The value is relative to the inability to conceive the reality of natural law. Just as a person can become dependent on medicine rather than the ability to heal ones self, it is only the lack of knowledge and experience that perpetuates the idea that these placebo's have value.

In the big picture, everything has value. Just as a child must sometimes fall before it becomes adept at walking, these ideas and means of approach exist for the experience of becoming aware of ones own natural abilities rather than the means to achieve them. Eventually one will put down the crutch to walk without it, and find they could have done so at any time. In that statement is the reality that truth exists in example if a true seeker is willing to give up their limited ideas to receive what already exists in the natural abilities of the human in the form of knowledge that is ignored because it doesn't fit into ones personal agenda.

Saying that, there is no wrong way of doing life, but there are certainly more affective ways and means than to taint the natural ability of the human mechanism with chemicals or stimulants to force it beyond the minds own ability to transcend belief. The only reason limitation is experienced is because of what the mind holds onto as reality. If one believes they know of reality beyond their current experience that alone is a catalyst for change. All one need do is turn toward that and the universe responds to the mind instantly.
The problem with the waking state mind is that it holds onto the limited until it is convinced something greater exists. This ego ignoring the knowing of the heart is what controls the mind, it is a shield of fear and it remains in place until one finally decides to let it go.
In the examples given by FP she/he still holds onto the limitation gathering experiences to bolster the belief that the reality beyond limitation exists. There will come a time, (maybe) when this person will not be so enamored with the experience which will open up much more possibility.

There is a saying. "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." or "Fools rush in where fools have been before."

Posted by: Rick Sep 07, 2007, 09:54 AM

In one of Castaneda's books, Don Juan tells Carlos that he had to give him drugs because he was such a dolt that there was no other way to get through to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda

Posted by: Joesus Sep 07, 2007, 03:35 PM

In Journey to Ixtlan, the third book in the series, he wrote:

My perception of the world through the effects of those psychotropics had been so bizarre and impressive that I was forced to assume that such states were the only avenue to communicating and learning what don Juan was attempting to teach me.
That assumption was erroneous.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 07, 2007, 07:16 PM

To say there is alot of info tying the 3 together might be a bit of an exaggeration.
I found this..

QUOTE
There are also claims that A. muscaria played in important role in a number of ancient religious rites, though these claims tend to be speculative and highly controversial. The best known of these claims is R. Gordon Wasson's proposition that A. muscaria was the Soma talked about in Rig Veda of India,[49] and is less often also thought to be the amrita talked about in Buddhist scriptures.


Its more funny, than it is interesting.

Soma (also called the glue of the universe) is the molecule produced by the body when the body and mind come together in spiritual awakening. The refinement of Soma is Amrita, sometimes called the immortality molecule. Amrita is refined from the soma when the DNA begins to transform, unlock or when dormant attributes become active in higher states of consciousness.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 08, 2007, 11:58 AM

[quote name='Joesus' date='Sep 06, 2007, 10:15 PM' post='82666']
I don't believe, I experience. Big difference there.[/quote]

In your case not really.[/quote]

How are you so sure you you can assume how attached to my belief I am? If I talk through awareness and not the cloud of mind I know that I am just speaking words. Realizing that I can drop attachment to them. If I were to speak through a belief construct rather than awareness that would likely be a different story. But experience is not a belief construct, an interpretation is though.


[quote]It's not the experience I was referring to, it was your need for the mushroom that you give strength to, and the belief that you cannot achieve such an experience by yourself without it.
The experience and your belief that your third eye is open is altogether a different and more humorous subject.
[/quote]

When did I say I *needed* mushrooms, and when did I say I gave strength to them? I mentioned earlier that they were merely catalysts to speed one's understanding of the self. It is humorous to observe your lack of attention and understanding of what is being communicated here.

Saying my third eye was activated does not have to mean it was permanently activated. Observe the possibilities. It was open for the duration of the experience(s).


[quote]Obviously you have not experienced so there is no need for me to say anymore.[/quote]

There wasn't a need for you to say anything in the first place other than to defend your belief so that it might seem more real to you.


[quote][quote]Continue trying to prove your beliefs, because thats all they are. Experience is completely different. Bless the egomaniac.[/quote]

Experience is something...., and I applaud to the experience or rather the ability to transcend reality without a need for external chemicals to scramble the more than capable human nervous system when it is not filled with so much stress and belief in limitations.[/quote]

How are you so sure my nervous system contains belief in limitations, and how are you so sure entheogens make me stay attached to these beliefs?. You are letting your belief that the "stress of the nervous system" prevents one from realizing truth contained within the experience. Just because there may be some form of stress does not mean I can't transcend my attachment to body and ego and understand what is going on within me.


[quote][quote]You need to concentrate more on what I have said previously. Of course they do not allow you to transcend the ego permanently. They give you an understanding of the ego, which helps you to transcend it with meditation.[/quote]

Really your just making an excuse for taking hallucinogens. One could learn about the ego very effectively without taking anything to alter ones state of mind and create a chemical dependency to project an experience of life beyond duality.[/quote]

And what exuse is that? My experiences have shown me how my mind operates on a very deep level. I know this because this is what I have been shown. To understand how the ego operates, one must dissolve attachment to it. That is observance. It takes many people a long time to achieve this kind of detachment through meditation alone. Most will never make it in todays society. You believe that anybody in todays world can just as easily and in the same amount of time achieve this kind of detachment through meditation alone? In my experience, entheogens and meditation are important. I feel entheogens would not do much for me if I never practised daily meditation. During meditation I realize things that were realized on an entheogenic experience. This is how they work together, it is kind of like deja vu. Realization is a powerful thing.


[quote][quote]Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate.[/quote]

Using your reasoning I expect you have tried all forms of meditation and means of self discipline, and.... have full knowledge of where you are going to make such assumptions regarding your progress.
Anyone can toot their own horn and make claims to experience themselves having reached expanded states of awareness. Only one who has traveled that road would be able to tell whether another has really accomplished such a task. Also anyone can make claims to having done something in a crowd that has no knowledge of a subject.
[/quote]

I have been meditating for 5 years. I have been to Vipassana meditation retreats meditating for 100 hours in 10 days. I have been egoless during these experiences, they have given me a deep understanding of my ego. But I don't feel I would ever be able to expand or contract my awareness into such micro/macrocosmic levels of consciousness with meditation alone. Entheogens are another pair of eyes for me, and I can access their sight. I cannot access this information with meditation alone, that is what I mean.


[quote]There is no need for me to go on, I know the difference between my experience and my beliefs.[/quote]

You said something to the effect of not needing to go on in a previous sentence but you seem to find reason to go on anyway..I would say that you can't really keep track of your experiences and your beliefs if you have to repeat yourself.[/quote]

I stated this because of your misunderstand. I feel the need to go on to help you understand where I am coming from. Although you may never as you cannot know so much about the entheogenic experience without having experience it. Claiming you do is just plain ignorance.


I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 08, 2007, 07:14 PM

QUOTE
How are you so sure you you can assume how attached to my belief I am?

What makes you assume I assume anything?
QUOTE
When did I say I *needed* mushrooms, and when did I say I gave strength to them? I mentioned earlier that they were merely catalysts to speed one's understanding of the self.

That was it...and you did say a bit more about why it sped things up. Such as
QUOTE
But I don't feel I would ever be able to expand or contract my awareness into such micro/macrocosmic levels of consciousness with meditation alone. Entheogens are another pair of eyes for me, and I can access their sight. I cannot access this information with meditation alone, that is what I mean.


QUOTE
Saying my third eye was activated does not have to mean it was permanently activated. Observe the possibilities. It was open for the duration of the experience(s).

It is either open and you are aware of it, or you have an experience and project that it is open because you have an experience.

QUOTE

How are you so sure my nervous system contains belief in limitations, and how are you so sure entheogens make me stay attached to these beliefs?.

Why can't you achieve the experiences you exalt without using a chemical mixer?

QUOTE
You are letting your belief that the "stress of the nervous system" prevents one from realizing truth contained within the experience.
No you are letting stress and belief keep you from transcending limitation naturally without chemical mixers
QUOTE
Just because there may be some form of stress does not mean I can't transcend my attachment to body and ego and understand what is going on within me.

That is point of this conversation, and you have plenty of time still, to do it.

QUOTE

And what exuse is that? My experiences have shown me how my mind operates on a very deep level.

Let's answer this one with your last statement
QUOTE
I know nothing
Which is closer to the truth than the self acclaimed kudos and the patting of yourself on the back.

QUOTE
To understand how the ego operates, one must dissolve attachment to it. That is observance.

You're confusing innocence and ignorance. Observance and self created systems of measure, are only created by the ego.

QUOTE
It takes many people a long time to achieve this kind of detachment through meditation alone.

There are a lot of people in the world, and there are probably people that you do not know about who know alot more than you do.
But then how could you know?

QUOTE
Most will never make it in todays society. You believe that anybody in todays world can just as easily and in the same amount of time achieve this kind of detachment through meditation alone?

I know that anyone can rise above ego at any time and it may take no time at all. And as long as you're comparing yourself to the entire race of humans on this planet and every type of discipline that there is, with the understanding that you have realized the standard for human evolution according to your experiences and knowledge, I'd say your Third eye has blinders on it.
I would also venture to guess that you have been fed some erroneous information.
More than that I would say that you are ignoring the fact that you are reflecting the ineffectiveness of your practice in meditation without the hallucinogenic experiences incurred through the use of psychoactive substances.
Do your Vapassana teachers encourage the use of mind altering drugs?

The Code of Discipline

The foundation of the practice is sila — moral conduct. Sila provides a basis for the development of samadhi — concentration of mind; and purification of the mind is achieved through panna — the wisdom of insight.
The Precepts

All who attend a Vipassana course must conscientiously undertake the following five precepts for the duration of the course:

1. to abstain from killing any living creature;
2. to abstain from stealing;
3. to abstain from all sexual activity;
4. to abstain from telling lies;
5. to abstain from all intoxicants.



QUOTE
In my experience, entheogens and meditation are important.
Of course you would have to come to that conclusion because you haven't had another type of experience or one greater than the ones you have had. But I have every confidence that you will outgrow this illusion of yours.

QUOTE

I have been meditating for 5 years. I have been to Vipassana meditation retreats meditating for 100 hours in 10 days. I have been egoless during these experiences, they have given me a deep understanding of my ego.

You are confused. Having an experience during the process of repeating mantras does not make you ego-less. That comes from having transcended ego in activity. Anyone can trip along and have an experience that can be labeled as beyond ego but these are just experiences, and you are not your experiences as much as you want to believe you are.

QUOTE
But I don't feel I would ever be able to expand or contract my awareness into such micro/macrocosmic levels of consciousness with meditation alone. Entheogens are another pair of eyes for me, and I can access their sight. I cannot access this information with meditation alone, that is what I mean.

That is what I have been saying all along. You are not doing what you are naturally capable of because you rely on the drug to get you there. You believe that you cannot do it when really you can. The only reason you haven't is because:
1: The effectiveness of your meditation due to the programs and influence you add to it.
2: The scarring that has taken place in your psyche due to the drugs and the belief in the drugs. And the power you give them to allow you to have an experience, in which you project your ego-less self.

QUOTE
]There is no need for me to go on, I know the difference between my experience and my beliefs.
So you keep going on about...

QUOTE

I feel the need to go on to help you understand where I am coming from. Although you may never as you cannot know so much about the entheogenic experience without having experience it. Claiming you do is just plain ignorance.

No, assuming I know nothing about what you are talking about and trying to convince me of your righteousness is just ego.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 09, 2007, 09:33 PM

No, assuming I know nothing about what you are talking about and trying to convince me of your righteousness is just ego.

Your words are hypocritical and childish and it seems you have this all-knowing knowledge and superiority complex. How do you know my psyche is scarred? Where's your evidence? How do you know I can't heal my psyche after a psychedelic experience? You have overlooked many of my important points, so there is no need for me to go on if you are going to keep ignoring. I have explained myself well enough for you to be able to understand. I understand your point of view, but it is limited as to what I am saying. Continue on knowing everything, I hope one day you will realize that you know nothing.

Good day!

http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/hayes01.htm

Posted by: Joesus Sep 09, 2007, 11:00 PM

QUOTE
How do you know my psyche is scarred? Where's your evidence?

Have you achieved the ability to transcend reality without the use of psychedelics?
QUOTE
How do you know I can't heal my psyche after a psychedelic experience?
No one said you couldn't heal your psyche after a psychedelic experience but why would you want to damage it or inhibit the natural ability of your nervous system in the first place?
QUOTE
You have overlooked many of my important points, so there is no need for me to go on if you are going to keep ignoring.

I haven't overlooked your points. I have addressed them and you just don't happen to like the fact that you can't redeem yourself.
By the way you never answered my question regarding whether or not your Vipassana Teachers approved of you distorting the practice.
QUOTE
I have explained myself well enough for you to be able to understand.
I understand perfectly. You said you can't achieve the altered state of mind nor the experience you want without psychedelics. The rest of the questionable claims regarding your state of mind since and during your altered states are still only claims made by someone who has created a self system of authority.(That'd be you)
You need to understand that anyone who cannot find themselves in their present experience and has to create a mood or an exuberant vision to fit the projection of who or what they might be according to the information they have accumulated is not illumined to their inherent nature. It is closer to a condition called enlightened ego.
QUOTE
I understand your point of view, but it is limited as to what I am saying.

You are still projecting a delusion that out of 6 billion people on this planet, no one knows better than you about expansion of consciousness and the effects of psychoactive drugs on the nervous system.
QUOTE
Continue on knowing everything, I hope one day you will realize that you know nothing.

Right back atcha tongue.gif

You aren't seriously mixing your Teachings of Vipassana and an Author for High Times advocating the use of psychedelics as your reason for your beliefs are you?
Have you heard of Timothy Leary?

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 10, 2007, 12:14 AM

Leave it out Joesus, its a bit old now. Your assuming that your subjective enlightenment experience is actual enlightenment, maybe your brain is screwed up from naturally occuring chemicals caused by a huge ego...

QUOTE
All who attend a Vipassana course must conscientiously undertake the following five precepts for the duration of the course:

1. to abstain from killing any living creature;
2. to abstain from stealing;
3. to abstain from all sexual activity;
4. to abstain from telling lies;
5. to abstain from all intoxicants.

If you want to teach the benefits of meditation, would you allow any of the above? Isn't it obvious that mixing meditation with booze, drugs or sex isn't going to give you an insight into the true benefit of meditation. According to your logic 'abstain from all sexual activity' is a rule that we should all live by and that'd be the end of humanity
QUOTE
The experience and your belief that your third eye is open is altogether a different and more humorous subject
This is your opinion and has no value at all. You don't agree with anything posted or are intentionally trolling, just state that and leave or be open to the possibility that its your ego thats in the way and its your third eye that is only half-open.

QUOTE
"Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate."
This statement ignores thousands of years of spiritual practice without the use of entheogens in favor of a personal belief.
and that statement is just as biased Joesus. You cannot know the truth of history without having lived in it, your are assuming all previous assumptions and pieces of evidence have been interpreted correctly. You have done this again with your belief that Soma could not be an hallucinogen. There seems to be a similarity in Soma and Manna, and this should not be laughed off so quickly. You are assuming you know the truth, which discredits all that you teach.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 10, 2007, 08:16 AM

QUOTE
Leave it out Joesus, its a bit old now. Your assuming that your subjective enlightenment experience is actual enlightenment,

I'm always willing to listen to an expert on enlightenment. smile.gif
QUOTE
maybe your brain is screwed up from naturally occuring chemicals caused by a huge ego...

Maybe it's not... mellow.gif
QUOTE

If you want to teach the benefits of meditation, would you allow any of the above? Isn't it obvious that mixing meditation with booze, drugs or sex isn't going to give you an insight into the true benefit of meditation. According to your logic 'abstain from all sexual activity' is a rule that we should all live by and that'd be the end of humanity

Huh? huh.gif
QUOTE
This is your opinion and has no value at all. You don't agree with anything posted or are intentionally trolling, just state that and leave or be open to the possibility that its your ego thats in the way and its your third eye that is only half-open.

Are you giving me your valued opinion? dry.gif
QUOTE
and that statement is just as biased Joesus. You cannot know the truth of history without having lived in it, your are assuming all previous assumptions and pieces of evidence have been interpreted correctly.

But I have lived in the past, so have you. All information regarding past experience is openly available in the present. wink.gif
QUOTE
You have done this again with your belief that Soma could not be an hallucinogen.

I believe I addressed the subject matter of an assumption regarding Soma being a mushroom according to Vedic scripture.
Whether someone in some past, somewhere in some place, called the active ingredient in a magic mushroom or the mushroom itself Soma isn't specific to Vedic scripture.
You should read the 9th mandala of the Rg Veda, it is pretty descriptive of Soma, Amrita and celestial experience, and it doesn't mention mushrooms. sleep.gif

QUOTE
There seems to be a similarity in Soma and Manna, and this should not be laughed off so quickly.
So you believe Manna is a mushroom also? huh.gif

QUOTE
You are assuming you know the truth, which discredits all that you teach.

I assume nothing and I teach nothing. Life can easily be discredited or embraced in all of its form and experience. In duality one makes up their own beliefs and systems of measure.

If you say soma and manna are mushrooms then how would anything I say change your mind unless you wanted to change your mind?
If I say they aren't you could say I was wrong but I don't really care what you say and I don't have to be right, or wrong. But I just may be right.
As long as your saying I'm wrong and you don't really know, then that might make you emotionally reactive to some things or some people in your universe.
If I did teach anything, it wouldn't be anything to do with beliefs but that which is beyond all beliefs, and since that can't be contained in any belief it would be difficult to contain it in any teaching. cool.gif

Posted by: Enki Sep 10, 2007, 09:53 AM

Joesus you fucked the topic up my dear, do you know that?
I start to think that you do that intentionally.

Posted by: Flex Sep 10, 2007, 10:12 AM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 10, 2007, 10:53 AM) *

Joesus you fucked the topic up my dear, do you know that?
I start to think that you do that intentionally.


HAHAHA I love you Enki--you have such a way with words smile.gif

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 10, 2007, 04:39 PM

trojan_libido
Leave it out Joesus, its a bit old now. Your assuming that your subjective enlightenment experience is actual enlightenment, maybe your brain is screwed up from naturally occuring chemicals caused by a huge ego...

Enlightenment is something I'm sure none of us here have exerpienced. Sure we may have had glimpses of it, but some Satguru's have gone through a year long process of ego-death, only to come out with a much deeper understanding of themselves and their connection with the world and universe. Let's not forget much more attachment to awareness rather than ego.


Joesus
How do you know my psyche is scarred? Where's your evidence?
Have you achieved the ability to transcend reality without the use of psychedelics?

I have entered states of no-mind through meditation without the use of psychedelics. I have also had OBE's without the use of psychedelics induced through meditation. Also sensations of floating.


How do you know I can't heal my psyche after a psychedelic experience?
No one said you couldn't heal your psyche after a psychedelic experience but why would you want to damage it or inhibit the natural ability of your nervous system in the first place?

Where is the evidence that my nervous system is damaged?


You have overlooked many of my important points, so there is no need for me to go on if you are going to keep ignoring.
I haven't overlooked your points. I have addressed them and you just don't happen to like the fact that you can't redeem yourself.
By the way you never answered my question regarding whether or not your Vipassana Teachers approved of you distorting the practice.


I was sober during the Vipassana retreat. After the retreat I hiked up a mountain, pitched a tent made a fire and had a shamanic experience with my tools for self-discovery. The retreat and the entheogen's worked perfectly together, the 100 hours of meditation made me ultra-receptive to information.


I have explained myself well enough for you to be able to understand.
I understand perfectly. You said you can't achieve the altered state of mind nor the experience you want without psychedelics.

Your misunderstanding me. I do not "want" a certain experience. I feel it is part of my being and I use it to tune in to myself. I can achieve a thoughtless aware blissful state through meditation. I cannot turn into a strand of DNA rotating and realizing things I could never comprehend through meditation alone (at least in this lifetime with society and all wink.gif).


The rest of the questionable claims regarding your state of mind since and during your altered states are still only claims made by someone who has created a self system of authority.(That'd be you)

I have had many experiences, and all I am doing is speaking of the validity of personal experience. You are the one who is imposing your opinions and beliefs onto me.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 11, 2007, 04:42 AM

Ok to set the record straight. Firstly I doubt if any of us have had one full enlightened hour between us, and since we can't define enlightenment then theres no real point arguing over it.

Secondly, no one is saying people MUST or NEED to take entheogens to find this enlightenment. Although I will defend this RIGHT to take entheogens.

Thirdly I think what annoys me the most about Joesus posts is simply the lack of personal experience. When I speak about my own experiences and I understand that everyone is different, that there are many paths. I only talk about my experiences because I believe there is something of value within them. I don't get the same open-heartness from Joesus and his posts, hence my defensiveness.

QUOTE
So you believe Manna is a mushroom also?
This kind of rhetorical and passively aggressive statement is why I retaliate. I didn't say I think these two things are mushrooms, only its been speculated and nothing can be ruled out UNLESS you were there when they named the damn things Soma and Manna. That would be difficult considering Manna has been translated as "What is it".

When a reasonable tone and open discussion returns to this thread, I may post again.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 11, 2007, 09:01 AM

QUOTE
Ok to set the record straight. Firstly I doubt if any of us have had one full enlightened hour between us, and since we can't define enlightenment then theres no real point arguing over it.
QUOTE
nothing can be ruled out

QUOTE

Thirdly I think what annoys me the most about Joesus posts is simply the lack of personal experience. When I speak about my own experiences and I understand that everyone is different, that there are many paths. I only talk about my experiences because I believe there is something of value within them. I don't get the same open-heartness from Joesus and his posts, hence my defensiveness.

That is a real statement and it does have value. The value is in where you put your importance, and in this case you recognize defensiveness.

Everyone has experiences and as such they could translate into value but then if you value one over another then you become attached to yourself and your experience. Humans are a reflection of God. That I am presence or I am That is more synonymous with the free flowing potential than the identity of any one experience. In realizing ones own potential anytime you take a stand in any one point of identity you cease to be the potential as you identity with something other.
This is what enlightenment is, freedom from being locked within an identity that limits you from moving through experiences because you have not fully put a previous experience down.
This creates fear because memories leave us with ideas of what we don't want and don't want to be and then projecting our desires into what we do want to be by mixing what we liked into a collage of best guess realities.

In the idea that there are many paths to justify one choices there lacks the experience of Unity in creation and creator. If there is only one absolute which is beyond all experiences then all experiences will be eventually surrendered to that one absolute. In that reality there is only one path. The path of Self realization.
God does not have a face, and there are no amount of faces that make a God because God is beyond infinite by any definition. Humans being a reflection of God, put on many faces in a lifetime but their potential is not contained by the experiences nor the expressions that make up the space between birth and death.
As Such when someone says to themselves I have experienced God or my Ego less self they only experience a reflection of the Self or of God. This knowing is also the difference between enlightenment and the projection of enlightenment and this experience in all experiences is the reality of enlightened knowledge.

I've had my share of psychedelics: Mushrooms, PCP, Laboratory made LSD, Mescaline, Peyote, Opium, Heroin, too many over the counter pharmaceuticals to remember, Cocaine and 20 years of growing and smoking pot, but it does not make me an expert on the use of drugs because there is no such thing. Hell I don't even know some of the things I took to get high.

The point is I have come to experience the capability to rise above any chemically induced high naturally, easily and permanently.
To say this will not convince anyone as much as some wants to hear the story, and to use these stories as proof that reality is real is ridiculous.

When someone points to the truth it only is real when it is true for all.
Drugs do not create enlightenment and they do not give anyone an experience of enlightenment. Enlightenment is not an experience, it takes one beyond the experiences.

QUOTE
When a reasonable tone and open discussion returns to this thread, I may post again.

I have every confidence that you will change your present mood and give up any expectations to react emotionally again.

QUOTE
.know what you know and have peace in that knowing.

There is no peace in knowing anything because you will have to defend it against some one elses knowing either in peaceful arrogance or in the shutting out of all other experience and knowing to make your knowing the knowing.
QUOTE
Joesus you fucked the topic up my dear, do you know that?
I start to think that you do that intentionally.

I have every confidence you will rise above this illusion and personal stress.

QUOTE

Enlightenment is something I'm sure none of us here have exerpienced.

But you are sure you have experienced being ego-less and states of no-mind..oh and also sensations of floating.
I had a sensation once...

QUOTE
Where is the evidence that my nervous system is damaged?

It will come with the experience of transcending reality without the use of drugs and the experience of the mind and body in that state of consciousness. The experience of clarity of mind in daily living will amaze you.
QUOTE
After the retreat I hiked up a mountain, pitched a tent made a fire and had a shamanic experience with my tools for self-discovery. The retreat and the entheogen's worked perfectly together, the 100 hours of meditation made me ultra-receptive to information.

Imagine if you were receptive enough to go beyond even the experience you have with psychedelics. Not only could you be open to more experiences but you might even be permanently unattached to any of them.

That day will come when you become unattached to your present beliefs.

QUOTE

Your misunderstanding me. I do not "want" a certain experience. I feel it is part of my being and I use it to tune in to myself.

Then tune into the experience you have without drugs and meditation for that is a part of yourself that you are trying to escape from because you believe this other experience is more a part of yourself than the one you have without meditation and drugs. In fact the meditation should allow you to do this but you don't seem to become aware of yourself because you are fantasizing about your altered states experiences.

QUOTE
I can achieve a thoughtless aware blissful state through meditation. I cannot turn into a strand of DNA rotating and realizing things I could never comprehend through meditation alone (at least in this lifetime with society and all
The thoughtful blissful state in meditation is obviously not enough for you so you take a drug to have an experience. This attachment to experiences is the addiction created by the ego.
You still don't know what or who you are do you? If you did you would be less enthralled by the experiences you are having under the influence of psychoactive placebos.

QUOTE
I have had many experiences, and all I am doing is speaking of the validity of personal experience. You are the one who is imposing your opinions and beliefs onto me.

As Dianah Said you are defending your personal experiences and that is the trap of the ego.
No one said you didn't have the experiences, no one says you can't have them. There is so much more to you than the identification you have with them and the limitations you place on how you have them.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 11, 2007, 10:09 AM

Ok then Joesus, If "God" created everything biological, and there are so many interactions (read hallucinogens) that can break through an ego and show that every action has limitless potential, do you not feel that those substances, which may have been taken into the food chain, are important to our history? In other words, is there no value in hallucinogens?

The fact mystical experiences bubble up from these experiences, show me that "God" is abound in many places. Which brings us back to the topic. Is God in the magic mushroom?

Posted by: Enki Sep 11, 2007, 11:46 AM

QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 10, 2007, 10:12 AM) *

HAHAHA I love you Enki--you have such a way with words smile.gif


Thank you.
It was such a good topic indeed. And when I read what they wrote I felt great sadness and decided to express my sadness by the most suitable words for this particular case. smile.gif


Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 11, 2007, 01:08 PM

QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 10, 2007, 08:00 PM) *

The key here forgottenpresence is...defending...proving...

as long as you defend, then there is always an opposition...know what you know and have peace in that knowing...

as the age old saying goes...do no throw your pearls before swine.


True,

Although I do enjoy enjoy a good debate at times. As long as I can realize and recognize my defensiveness and provableness attachment and degradation should not be an issue. At least from my perspective :/

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 11, 2007, 01:16 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 11, 2007, 05:42 AM) *

Ok to set the record straight. Firstly I doubt if any of us have had one full enlightened hour between us, and since we can't define enlightenment then theres no real point arguing over it.


I would have to agree there.


QUOTE
Although I will defend this RIGHT to take entheogens.


biggrin.gif

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 11, 2007, 01:51 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 11, 2007, 10:01 AM) *

Everyone has experiences and as such they could translate into value but then if you value one over another then you become attached to yourself and your experience.


Who is doing this? Like I said before, both meditation and psychedelics are very important. Both do different things. I told you that psychedelics would not work well for me if I did not integrate the experience with meditation. I am not implying that one has value over another, both are different things.


QUOTE
Humans are a reflection of God. That I am presence or I am That is more synonymous with the free flowing potential than the identity of any one experience. In realizing ones own potential anytime you take a stand in any one point of identity you cease to be the potential as you identity with something other.
This is what enlightenment is,


I don't believe you know what enlightenment is. The only way to know is to have experienced it, and I find this hard to believe. It has to do with distachment from the past, just because I can say this does not mean I know what enlightenment is. Distachment from the past is only a concept to me, it is not a total experience I am engaged in. So I do not have the right to claim this is what enlightenment is. Enlightenment is not a static definition, this confuses people and hinders growth.

God does not have a face, and there are no amount of faces that make a God because God is beyond infinite by any definition.


QUOTE
As Such when someone says to themselves I have experienced God or my Ego less self they only experience a reflection of the Self or of God.


That is your interpretation. You do not know everyones experiences, quit assuming you do.


QUOTE
The point is I have come to experience the capability to rise above any chemically induced high naturally, easily and permanently.


So have I. I have gone long periods of time abstaining from chemicals and it has been blissful. Does the fact that I can transcend entheogens make me too good for them? Just because I can transcend entheogens does not mean I should be pompous and tell myself I don't need them anymore and they do no good for me. And to tell others that they are wrong for using entheogens is just plain egocentric. We are all after different things in life, we are not all on your path. Just accept it.

I mean it's not like I do them every weekend. No no, not like that at all.


QUOTE
Drugs do not create enlightenment and they do not give anyone an experience of enlightenment. Enlightenment is not an experience, it takes one beyond the experiences.


Because you know so deeply what enlightenment is, right? laugh.gif


QUOTE
Enlightenment is something I'm sure none of us here have exerpienced.
But you are sure you have experienced being ego-less and states of no-mind..oh and also sensations of floating.
I had a sensation once...


I have lost attachment to my thought process, memory, sense of self, external world. There has been absolutely nothing, I was nobody. If this is not an ego-less state, then what is it? A thought process, a belief? Now it is only a memory of an experience, and I can realize that.


QUOTE
Where is the evidence that my nervous system is damaged?
It will come with the experience of transcending reality without the use of drugs and the experience of the mind and body in that state of consciousness. The experience of clarity of mind in daily living will amaze you.


It does amaze me. Now are you going to tell me you experience more clarity then me? rolleyes.gif


QUOTE
That day will come when you become unattached to your present beliefs.


Speak for yourself.


QUOTE
Your misunderstanding me. I do not "want" a certain experience. I feel it is part of my being and I use it to tune in to myself.
Then tune into the experience you have without drugs and meditation for that is a part of yourself that you are trying to escape from because you believe this other experience is more a part of yourself than the one you have without meditation and drugs. In fact the meditation should allow you to do this but you don't seem to become aware of yourself because you are fantasizing about your altered states experiences.


I can be in meditation and not have to meditate. I bet you didn't know that.


QUOTE
I can achieve a thoughtless aware blissful state through meditation. I cannot turn into a strand of DNA rotating and realizing things I could never comprehend through meditation alone (at least in this lifetime with society and all).

The thoughtful blissful state in meditation is obviously not enough for you so you take a drug to have an experience. This attachment to experiences is the addiction created by the ego.
You still don't know what or who you are do you? If you did you would be less enthralled by the experiences you are having under the influence of psychoactive placebos.


Keep trying to assume what I experience, it really isn't working. Your telling me I experience a "thoughtful blissful state" in meditation? How would you know what I experience? This is complete ignorance. You have no idea how attached to my experiences are through the words I convey and you cannot tell me I'm addicted. Assuming these things is a manifestation of the ego dry.gif


QUOTE
I have had many experiences, and all I am doing is speaking of the validity of personal experience. You are the one who is imposing your opinions and beliefs onto me.
As Dianah Said you are defending your personal experiences and that is the trap of the ego.
No one said you didn't have the experiences, no one says you can't have them. There is so much more to you than the identification you have with them and the limitations you place on how you have them.


And like I said, I can realize I am doing so. I am ultimately defending the right to take entheogens, like trojan mentioned. You on the other hand cannot realize how you are in denial.

Posted by: Rick Sep 11, 2007, 02:49 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 11, 2007, 02:51 PM) *
PS - this quote thing is not working..

One incorrectly nested quote or slash quote in a post and none of them will work. You should be able to go back and edit it for correctness.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 11, 2007, 05:18 PM

thanks

Posted by: Joesus Sep 11, 2007, 07:19 PM

QUOTE
Ok then Joesus, If "God" created everything biological, and there are so many interactions (read hallucinogens) that can break through an ego and show that every action has limitless potential, do you not feel that those substances, which may have been taken into the food chain, are important to our history? In other words, is there no value in hallucinogens?

First of all if the reactionary discipline is to identify with ones character and projected beliefs in reality according to the interpretations of the ego any experience is going to be returned to ego's box for subject value and interpretation.
While having an experience, any experience, if the ego and all its principles are intact and the mind has not accustomed itself to the reality of egolessness, comprehension is going to be limited because the mind will not be familiar with any relevant function of thought in the unfamiliar. Until the experience is over, the mind will not make any references to what has happened or what is happening unless it is dragging its projections of belief with it which have been created prior to the experience.
The natural tendency to return all experiences to home base is relevant to any level of consciousness.
Home base is either based on experience of identities created from the past or in the case of the enlightened, the unmanifest, which is beyond all experience and identification.

Value is relative to the experience of awareness, and if the awareness is the identification with external manifestations, then they are going to change according to the experiences. IF the awareness is the unmanifest there is no change, and value would automatically be given to the expansion of awareness or the depth of the unmanifest in experience rather than the experience and any of its qualities.

QUOTE
The fact mystical experiences bubble up from these experiences, show me that "God" is abound in many places. Which brings us back to the topic. Is God in the magic mushroom?

God is in everything, which is why it is unnecessary to look to one experience over another, or to external manipulation to create a certain type of experience to call God.
God is more mundane than special, but the ego would like God to be mystical and fantastic in experience.

QUOTE


I don't believe you know what enlightenment is. The only way to know is to have experienced it, and I find this hard to believe.


Of course you don't believe it, and as such you will defend your beliefs and put all interpretations of your experiences in the box of beliefs. This will inhibit you from accepting anything that does not fit in your box and at the same time give you all the reason to defend what you do believe so you have some point of reference to identify reality and yourself.

QUOTE
So I do not have the right to claim this is what enlightenment is.

But you do believe you have the right to tell someone else that they do not know either, based on your own inability to recognize enlightenment.
This just comes from fear of being less or knowing less than you could or should.
QUOTE
It has to do with distachment from the past
That is only a quality not a prerequisite.

QUOTE
As Such when someone says to themselves I have experienced God or my Ego less self they only experience a reflection of the Self or of God.


That is your interpretation. You do not know everyones experiences, quit assuming you do.

This is not just my interpretation or experience. There is no experience that can contain God. The Egoless Self is God and it cannot be contained in an experience either. This is just reality.

QUOTE


It does amaze me. Now are you going to tell me you experience more clarity then me?

No I don't have to tell you that, you wouldn't really accept that anyone could experience anything more clear than you, or that you could get any clearer.

QUOTE
I have gone long periods of time abstaining from chemicals and it has been blissful. Does the fact that I can transcend entheogens make me too good for them?

The issue is not whether you are better than them it is whether you identify yourself with them at all. Your previous posts stated that you could not get the experiences of combining meditation and mushrooms by meditation alone. Now you say you can.
QUOTE
Just because I can transcend entheogens does not mean I should be pompous and tell myself I don't need them anymore and they do no good for me. And to tell others that they are wrong for using entheogens is just plain egocentric. We are all after different things in life, we are not all on your path. Just accept it.

Not a problem I can accept that you just like getting high. That is what I figured in the first place. It was all the "I am more enlightened by taking drugs" crap that I was addressing.
QUOTE

I have lost attachment to my thought process, memory, sense of self, external world. There has been absolutely nothing, I was nobody. If this is not an ego-less state, then what is it? A thought process, a belief?
No not a thought process, because you couldn't think it is an unconscious state of mind. The egoless state of awareness is not devoid of Self awareness, the ability to think, or remember.
A person would be a vegetable in the state of mind you describe and unable to function in this world. Does this function-less state of mind sound like enlightenment to you?

QUOTE

I can be in meditation and not have to meditate.

Of course you can but you aren't all the time are you.

QUOTE


And like I said, I can realize I am doing so. I am ultimately defending the right to take entheogens, like trojan mentioned.

I said you were making excuses for taking psychedelics and you denied it before.
The question I have now is why would you find the need to defend the right? Why would you draw to yourself anything that would cause you to defend your choices? Are you a victim?

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 11, 2007, 08:11 PM

QUOTE
The issue is not whether you are better than them it is whether you identify yourself with them at all.


How do you know how much I identify myself with them in everyday life? You seem pretty identified with your thought-process if you ask me laugh.gif


QUOTE
Your previous posts stated that you could not get the experiences of combining meditation and mushrooms by meditation alone. Now you say you can.


You claim to be this know-it-all guru of everything, you have the power to tell me I'm heading in the wrong direction, yet you can't even read right? Give me a break.


QUOTE
Not a problem I can accept that you just like getting high. That is what I figured in the first place. It was all the "I am more enlightened by taking drugs" crap that I was addressing.


Once again you assume my intentions. Not a good sign cool.gif


I have lost attachment to my thought process, memory, sense of self, external world. There has been absolutely nothing, I was nobody. If this is not an ego-less state, then what is it? A thought process, a belief?
QUOTE
No not a thought process, because you couldn't think it is an unconscious state of mind. The egoless state of awareness is not devoid of Self awareness, the ability to think, or remember.
A person would be a vegetable in the state of mind you describe and unable to function in this world. Does this function-less state of mind sound like enlightenment to you?


If this was an unconscious state of mind then why was I conscious. There was an "I" but no "me". Starting to get it now?

You obviously have never heard of Meher Baba or Osho's experiences with ego-death, or any other satguru for that matter. Satgurus speak of ego-death as a required experience on the path to actual enlightenment/self-realization. Of course it is not a permanent experience, get the static out of your head.

The egoless state of awareness is not devoid of Self awareness, the ability to think, or remember.

Meher Baba wouldn't say so. wacko.gif


I can be in meditation and not have to meditate.
QUOTE
Of course you can but you aren't all the time are you.


Never claimed I was. These childish comebacks don't tell me much about tyou.


QUOTE
The question I have now is why would you find the need to defend the right?


Because they have been powerful tools for understanding and realization in my experience. Not everybody who uses entheogens can tap into the healing energies they contain, this goes for you too.


QUOTE
Why would you draw to yourself anything that would cause you to defend your choices? Are you a victim?


Once again, speak for yourself.


Also, you can stop ranting and preaching. I already understand everything you say there is no need ph34r.gif

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 11, 2007, 11:22 PM

QUOTE(joesus)
QUOTE(Trojan)
Ok then Joesus, If "God" created everything biological, and there are so many interactions (read hallucinogens) that can break through an ego and show that every action has limitless potential, do you not feel that those substances, which may have been taken into the food chain, are important to our history? In other words, is there no value in hallucinogens?


First of all if the reactionary discipline is to identify with ones character and projected beliefs in reality according to the interpretations of the ego any experience is going to be returned to ego's box for subject value and interpretation.
While having an experience, any experience, if the ego and all its principles are intact and the mind has not accustomed itself to the reality of egolessness, comprehension is going to be limited because the mind will not be familiar with any relevant function of thought in the unfamiliar. Until the experience is over, the mind will not make any references to what has happened or what is happening unless it is dragging its projections of belief with it which have been created prior to the experience.
The natural tendency to return all experiences to home base is relevant to any level of consciousness.
Home base is either based on experience of identities created from the past or in the case of the enlightened, the unmanifest, which is beyond all experience and identification.

Value is relative to the experience of awareness, and if the awareness is the identification with external manifestations, then they are going to change according to the experiences. IF the awareness is the unmanifest there is no change, and value would automatically be given to the expansion of awareness or the depth of the unmanifest in experience rather than the experience and any of its qualities.


All that text and little content, again. Answer YES OR NO please, without your incessant esoteric walls of text.

QUOTE
QUOTE(trojan)

The fact mystical experiences bubble up from these experiences, show me that "God" is abound in many places. Which brings us back to the topic. Is God in the magic mushroom?


God is in everything, which is why it is unnecessary to look to one experience over another, or to external manipulation to create a certain type of experience to call God.
God is more mundane than special, but the ego would like God to be mystical and fantastic in experience.


Your actually saying that its the Ego that makes spontaneous spiritual rebirth a special experience. I always thought the experience feels special because it is. This is how we can identify the experience, isn't it? Can you honestly say you can appreciate anything without using the Ego to weigh up an experience against all the others in memory? I doubt it. Again I feel you've deflected the question rather than answer honestly.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 12, 2007, 12:16 AM

QUOTE

How do you know how much I identify myself with them in everyday life?

Just call me master of the obvious.

QUOTE

You claim to be this know-it-all guru of everything,

Could you quote me where I make this claim to know everything.

QUOTE

Once again you assume my intentions.

I would never..

QUOTE

If this was an unconscious state of mind then why was I conscious. There was an "I" but no "me". Starting to get it now?
Where did the me go? Where could it go? Are you saying the me never existed or was experienced? Wouldn't conscious awareness include both illusion and truth and the ability to recognize the difference? Or is Consciousness forgetful or schizophrenic?

QUOTE

The egoless state of awareness is not devoid of Self awareness, the ability to think, or remember.

Meher Baba wouldn't say so.

Oh I bet he would. You might be narrowing the egoless experience to an experience of the reflection of the absolute, the silence and stillness of what appears to be nothing.
When one immerses themselves in the absolute, the reality of where all things begin and end lead the way to the surrender of identity of self and experience. This is not a state of consciousness but a reflection of Self. It is not egolessness because here potential does not disclude or include anything.
Being egoless is not being without ego. Some Masters have spoken of killing the ego, or death of the ego, but in reality it was a description of the death of the waking state, or the transition from one level of awareness to another.
In reference to change according to some Eastern Teachings and the description of change within the natural laws that support reality, Everything is made possible by the Gunas.
When a flower blooms the bud dies. When a child becomes a man the child dies but in reality the child is not such an illusion that the experience never happened, or is dead to the universe like it is gone. As such the experience of the me never leaves one in the experience of the Self because the Self includes the me and all experiences beyond the identification of me.
Conscious thought (not necessarily waking state conscious thought where the ego is dominant) includes all rather than some, or partial awareness.
This would be expanded consciousness rather than selective consciousness or unconsciousness where something is experienced while all other experiences are blanked out.
Are you familiar with the Brahman, or the conscious experience of being in more than one place at the same time?

Some believe the goal of meditation is the experience with closed the eyes. Others who meditate throughout their lives do so to bring the absolute into the manifest rather than to escape the manifest into silence and non experience.
In reality expanded states of consciousness merge what was impossible to experience in more gross levels of awareness and often experienced as nothing into experience of Self where conscious thought and awareness were not possible before.
This is similar to the comprehension of reality in the evolving child and the adult. Experience lays the foundation for the capability to comprehend, but in the development of the ego comprehension relies heavily on merging the past with the present and the predictability of the future rather than the development of the subtle senses and the awareness of multidimensional realities or the poteential of the absolute Self.
As such there has been much mystery and fantasy rallied around the identity with non experience or the temporary blanking out of awareness when the mind leaves what is most familiar and then temporarily losing itself in the unfamiliar expansiveness of Supreme being.

QUOTE
Never claimed I was. These childish comebacks don't tell me much about tyou.

I wasn't saying much about me, I was pointing out the choice you were making to only focus on something greater than your waking state reality sometimes, and then to pat yourself on the back for doing what you believe is greater on occasion, and with the idea that its enhanced with the use of hallucinogens.

I had a friend once who used to compare body building with smoking. He said he was tearing down the muscle tissue in his lungs to make them stronger.
Anyone can make excuses for their choices and then justify them with a reason that make sense to them.
God gives humans choice but does not necessarily create a value in the choice. That can follow interpretation of different levels of conscious awareness. Children have values that become valueless as they become adults. I'm only suggesting that your present system of values will necessarily influence you present experiences.

QUOTE
The question I have now is why would you find the need to defend the right?

Because they have been powerful tools for understanding and realization in my experience. Not everybody who uses entheogens can tap into the healing energies they contain, this goes for you too.


If everyone can't, then I would say its not a universal truth but a personal truth. That could be all the reason to defend something, if one would feel they were being threatened personally, or if they felt their personal experience was special or fragile.
I think you could do better than to have to defend yourself, or you might even come up with some better excuses.

Why would you draw to yourself anything that would cause you to defend your choices? Are you a victim?
I thought I'd ask this again to see if this defensive position is something you consciously chose for, or unconsciously stepped into, or if life just threw it at you because that's the way it is.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 12, 2007, 12:49 AM

QUOTE
All that text and little content, again. Answer YES OR NO please, without your incessant esoteric walls of text.

No to answering yes or no.
QUOTE


Your actually saying that its the Ego that makes spontaneous spiritual rebirth a special experience.

The ego can conceptualize within its own terms what rebirth is. As to making anything special that could be relegated to personality and egoic necessity.

QUOTE
I always thought the experience feels special because it is. This is how we can identify the experience, isn't it?


point of reference. Two or more people could be standing in a room and have completely different experiences. Is it because something is special that one has an experience or is it just point of reference. Thoughts that create impressions in neural pathways may leave one receptive to certain influences and someone may be receptive to something where another is not. Is something still special when someone experiences it and another does not in the same period of time and in the same location?

Do you think back with special fondness on all experiences? Have you had the experience of eating the same thing over and over again where you liked what you ate in the beginning but became less enchanted with it later, or having repeated experiences of anything where the effects degraded with time and repetitiveness?
QUOTE
Can you honestly say you can appreciate anything without using the Ego to weigh up an experience against all the others in memory? I doubt it. Again I feel you've deflected the question rather than answer honestly.

I can honestly say I still have feelings and they include appreciation or praise, and it is more akin to the recognition that follows not just the experience but what creates the manifestation of experience and what underlies the feelings. The appreciation is more for the power that underlies the ability to create and experience than the shiny object which can be seen and experienced so many different ways by so many different personalities.

In other words If someone gets a present and it brings them joy I can experience joy from their having joy rather than from the same thing they feel joy about which would be the present. Both of us could feel joy but for two different experiences.

In relative identification, I've been in situations, being one of three brothers, where one gets something and the others don't have any appreciation for the others gift. In fact one might feel depressed while the one who gets feels great.
Detaching from the object is not something you deliberately do, detachment comes after the experience of union which follows the fading of judgment which follows conscious choice to surrender all thought feeling and action back to the unmanifest absolute.

When you experience yourself in the object of perception it is impossible to feel separate from it.
Feelings come and go and they are not necessarily tied to an experience or an object anymore, sometimes they come from being in proximity to someone and feeling their feelings.
Appreciation can come from simply stepping aside from the identification with the subjective world and observing creation unfold from thought and or intention.
In that some might say all of creation is special or you could also say none of it is special, both would be relatively equal in the awareness of Union.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 12, 2007, 01:08 AM

QUOTE(joesus)
QUOTE
All that text and little content, again. Answer YES OR NO please, without your incessant esoteric walls of text.


No to answering yes or no.
So your admitting that you don't actually have much of an opinion. So why come to debate on this topic? I'm going to start pointing you to Colin Leslie Deans work of genius...

Posted by: Joesus Sep 12, 2007, 09:37 AM

QUOTE
So your admitting that you don't actually have much of an opinion.

Everyone forms opinions. The sooner you let them go the easier it is to receive greater experience and knowledge.
QUOTE
So why come to debate on this topic?

You said earlier the question was, "Is God in the magic mushrooms?"
This could be answered with a yes or no but looking over the posts I see the subject matter has been spoken of in the description of personal experiences, the belief in God, and whether anyone is enlightened enough to know God; which brings up a point.
You said.
QUOTE
Ok to set the record straight. Firstly I doubt if any of us have had one full enlightened hour between us, and since we can't define enlightenment then theres no real point arguing over it.

If one is not enlightened enough to know the difference between God and illusion then how could one intelligently speak of a relationship with God in terms of anything let alone create a point of debate.
Secondly how do you debate a question without answering it first then making the decision to debate ones answer to a question? Third, what separates a debate from an argument in your opinion?
Then if your are asking a question with the intent of creating a debate over the answers to invalidate or validate someones experiences what does that say for the mindset of the user who poses the question?
Are you looking for an argument/debate?
Is this the specialness you recognize in life, the opportunity to debate your experiences? Is life a debate?

What are you really looking for in identifying the question is God in a magic mushroom as a topic of debate.
You might believe in God or not, or maybe you are still searching for the definitive answer to what God is or the continuation of the ongoing experience of God.
IF you take magic mushrooms and you have an experience and you liken the experience to God if you have defined God and said experience, then are you looking to validate your experience by seeking like counsel in appreciation for your experience because you feel easily threatened and need to defend the use of Mushrooms by calling it a spiritual tool?
What are you debating here and do you come here strictly to debate every question posed on this media?

Enki came and expressed the feeling that I fucked up this post but I don't think the expression was open for debate, it was an outright expression of opinion and feelings. So I don't know if what you are saying is clear but I would agree it is emotionally inspired.
QUOTE
I'm going to start pointing you to Colin Leslie Deans work of genius...

And I'll probably keep surrendering everything back to first principle or origin, Or living my life as it comes without the need to debate the choices I make or the thoughts that pass by.
Ultimately I think its a lot easier to live if I'm not emotionally guarded.
Just my experience tho, and you are certainly welcome to express your opinions without any fear of taking anything away from me.

Posted by: code buttons Sep 12, 2007, 10:26 AM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 11, 2007, 08:11 PM) *

Because they have been powerful tools for understanding and realization in my experience. Not everybody who uses entheogens can tap into the healing energies they contain, this goes for you too.

Welcome, forgottenpresence. Cool avatar! What does it mean?

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 12, 2007, 11:36 AM

QUOTE
If one is not enlightened enough to know the difference between God and illusion then how could one intelligently speak of a relationship with God in terms of anything let alone create a point of debate.

God is the illusion, and the reality. The whole point is why is it possible gain a mystical experience from these substances, from both a biological and a historical point of view. Do these substances give enough insight into personal psychology, cultural psychology and even geometrically, to see another view of "God".

Posted by: Joesus Sep 12, 2007, 06:34 PM

Is it the placebo or the thought?
Doctors can give a sugar pill to a patient, tell them it will heal them and the suggestion is taken inward with results similar to the drugs prescribed for the ailment.
In some cases mushrooms will have no psychotic effects, and in other cases it will stretch a persons mind beyond what they are capable of understanding.

Did you get your answer to the question "Do these substances give enough insight into personal psychology, cultural psychology and even geometrically, to see another view of "God"?"

Have we determined what God is and what enough insight is to the subjects mentioned?

Is this still a debate?

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 12, 2007, 08:27 PM

QUOTE(code buttons @ Sep 12, 2007, 11:26 AM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 11, 2007, 08:11 PM) *

Because they have been powerful tools for understanding and realization in my experience. Not everybody who uses entheogens can tap into the healing energies they contain, this goes for you too.

Welcome, forgottenpresence. Cool avatar! What does it mean?



Hi!

What it means to me... it means a lot! It is the third eye, which has meaning no words can convey.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 12, 2007, 08:28 PM

QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 12, 2007, 07:58 PM) *

What is sought is found, it doesn’t freaking matter what belief, method or drug that is taught, practiced or taken…if the seeker really desires what it seeks, then it will find it.


wub.gif

Posted by: Joesus Sep 12, 2007, 08:35 PM

QUOTE
What you stated can be applied to anything such as; Teachers can give attitudes to a student, tell them it will heal them and the suggestion is taken inward with results similar to the advice prescribed for the aliment.

No it can't be applied equally. If the Teacher says something that the student doesn't understand then there can be no connection to what the Teacher has said.
If the student prescribes his own ideas of reality into the teaching it may be that what is found and experienced is only illusion.
Not all Teachers are living in illusion or do they guide one toward egoic fantasies.
Not all methods are effective when taught by Teachers who claim to know something when they really don't.
Not all teachers will compromise truth to satisfy the ego and its desire for illusion.

In the history of humanity seeking a God that will take away all misery and suffering, such a thing has yet to be found because there is no external God that would step in and take away ones choice and belief.
One may create representatives or charlatans who profess to knowing God and have their subjects serve their personal beliefs in their knowing, but often dreams are shattered because they are convinced by others that they have found what they are looking for by hypnotizing the mind with foolish ideas and distracting one from what is in their heart.

In the placebo affect it is not the pill that does the healing but the patient that does the healing. What is found is temporary because placebos only work as long as the conscious awareness is shifted from the disease or illness, but it does not treat the cause, only its symptoms.
Just as any drug only treats symptoms healing can only occur when one shifts their awareness from internal stresses to something greater with a method to release the cause of stress and the stress itself.
QUOTE

What is sought is found, it doesn’t freaking matter what belief, method or drug that is taught, practiced or taken…if the seeker really desires what it seeks, then it will find it.

You think Timothy Leary found the perfect method to experience God through LSD, or do you think he could have done better?
What is found and believed is often illusion and as such temporary, leaving one with nothing at all.
There are some who are less deluded or twisted in helping others follow dreams of fantasy, or to tell them that anything will work as long as they work at it.

Anything is possible but not every possibility is present within the beliefs or the path of each individual because their path may be to discover the difference in illusion and Truth by discovering how the universe supports that which is real rather than fantasy.

It does matter. Seeking pink elephants in a quart jar because you really believe that is where they live is not likely to produce anything other than suffering at the cost of a wasted life dreaming of something that cannot be supported by the natural laws of the environment.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 12, 2007, 11:32 PM

I've never said that ingesting mushroom is the perfect method to experience God. Far from it, it may take you years to experience anything slightly like spiritual.

QUOTE
Have we determined what God is and what enough insight is to the subjects mentioned?
I was asking you, since you appear to have the required experiences of both natural and induced methods of conscious expansion. Why can't you give an opinion? Has all the ego dissolution left you incapable of deciding one way or another? If so, this enlightenment isn't what I expected it to be.

Posted by: code buttons Sep 13, 2007, 07:38 AM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 12, 2007, 08:27 PM) *

QUOTE(code buttons @ Sep 12, 2007, 11:26 AM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 11, 2007, 08:11 PM) *

Because they have been powerful tools for understanding and realization in my experience. Not everybody who uses entheogens can tap into the healing energies they contain, this goes for you too.

Welcome, forgottenpresence. Cool avatar! What does it mean?



Hi!

What it means to me... it means a lot! It is the third eye, which has meaning no words can convey.

Dude, I just noticed your signature! It rocks too!!!

Posted by: Joesus Sep 13, 2007, 08:04 AM

QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 13, 2007, 02:13 PM) *

QUOTE
No it can't be applied equally


Yes it can.

Every ‘no its not’… limits potential and keeps one in their boxes.



Every "no its not" is an example of unlimited potential.

I personally haven't met anyone who would tell me they do not want "peace and happiness" in their lives.
I'm not talking about sometimes or "I remember when..." peace and happiness but peace and happiness in every experience.

Try to find someone who will tell you they do not want it, that they really don't want it, and they will probably tell you they really want it.

Th end result is that few if any really understand what peace and happiness is, nor do they get it.

There are many roads that lead to consciousness but they do not all end in Union.

QUOTE

this enlightenment isn't what I expected it to be.

Enlightenment is nothing about expectations.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 13, 2007, 02:22 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 13, 2007, 12:32 AM) *

I've never said that ingesting mushroom is the perfect method to experience God. Far from it, it may take you years to experience anything slightly like spiritual.


Many people have never "broken through" on entheogens. Many cling to their ego so tightly psychedelics only give power to it. Ego-dissolution via entheogens is something not everyone encounters along their travels, but when the time comes it happens and attachmnent is dissolved. The plan now is distachment from the past, not simple, yet not confusing.


QUOTE
I was asking you, since you appear to have the required experiences of both natural and induced methods of conscious expansion. Why can't you give an opinion? Has all the ego dissolution left you incapable of deciding one way or another? If so, this enlightenment isn't what I expected it to be.


Certainly doesn't sound like enlightenment to me dry.gif

Why bother preaching so much about enlightenment if you can't emanate loving kindness through your words? Kind of contradictory if you ask me...

Posted by: Joesus Sep 13, 2007, 06:10 PM

QUOTE


Why bother preaching so much about enlightenment if you can't emanate loving kindness through your words? Kind of contradictory if you ask me...

Mollycoddling the ego is not kindness nor is it compassionate, and.... I never preach!

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 14, 2007, 02:53 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 13, 2007, 07:10 PM) *

I never preach!


Thou not know all perspectives.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 14, 2007, 06:35 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 14, 2007, 10:53 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 13, 2007, 07:10 PM) *

I never preach!


Thou not know all perspectives.


I don't have to.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 14, 2007, 08:04 PM

QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 15, 2007, 03:29 AM) *

QUOTE
I don't have to.


coz it eludes you

No, the fact that people say things like you preach doesn't mean I preach.

In this case the comment was made without any real thought and was inspired by an emotional attachment to a belief.



Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 14, 2007, 08:47 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 14, 2007, 09:04 PM) *

QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 15, 2007, 03:29 AM) *

QUOTE
I don't have to.


coz it eludes you

No, the fact that people say things like you preach doesn't mean I preach.

In this case the comment was made without any real thought and was inspired by an emotional attachment to a belief.


preaching means different things to different people, this is part of what i meant by my comment. by definition, you are preaching to me.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 14, 2007, 10:30 PM

That would be a personal definition. In which case I'm not required to be co-dependent to meet your expectations.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 15, 2007, 04:11 AM

QUOTE
In this case the comment was made without any real thought and was inspired by an emotional attachment to a belief.
How can you not be emotionally attached to a belief. Isn't that almost the definition of belief?

Posted by: Joesus Sep 15, 2007, 10:03 AM

QUOTE
How can you not be emotionally attached to a belief. Isn't that almost the definition of belief?

That'd be the point, wouldn't it.
Without innocence the attachment to perception rarely allows for any expansion on a point of view.
When someone takes a position based on their personal points of reference they will often deny any other perspective, or the fact that perspectives based on personal points of view are not authoritative points of reference.
Typically one will dig in even further and label all differing points of view. In this case fp labeled my language as preaching.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 15, 2007, 10:35 AM

Well I'd have to agree to be honest. Preaching without an opinion on much. You only preach that most things are illusions, that we cant understand the absolute, which is fair enough. But dont sit on the fence!

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 02:26 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 15, 2007, 11:03 AM) *

QUOTE
How can you not be emotionally attached to a belief. Isn't that almost the definition of belief?

That'd be the point, wouldn't it.
Without innocence the attachment to perception rarely allows for any expansion on a point of view.
When someone takes a position based on their personal points of reference they will often deny any other perspective, or the fact that perspectives based on personal points of view are not authoritative points of reference.
Typically one will dig in even further and label all differing points of view. In this case fp labeled my language as preaching.


your attitude is that you know the truth about entheogens and their interaction with human consciousness and body chemistry. i am not in disagreement with everything you are saying. you claim to believe that what one can experience on entheogens can be experienced through meditation alone. this is your truth based on your opinion and personal experience, and you are imposing it onto me. this is preaching.

Altered states induced by drugs is not a transcended state of consciousness.

This is your opinion and your personal experience. You do not know everyone's experience with "drugs" and how they alter human consciousness. You are imposing your truth onto me, this is what I mean by preaching.

Posted by: lucid_dream Sep 15, 2007, 02:56 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 13, 2007, 03:22 PM) *

Many people have never "broken through" on entheogens. Many cling to their ego so tightly psychedelics only give power to it. Ego-dissolution via entheogens is something not everyone encounters along their travels, but when the time comes it happens and attachmnent is dissolved. The plan now is distachment from the past, not simple, yet not confusing.


hi FP, and welcome. Can you please explain further what you mean by "breaking through"? Different entheogens evoke different experiences, as do their varied combinations (in addition to combining with nootropics and other neuroactive substances). Ego dissolution can be a tricky matter because we invariably identify with something in our consciousness. Dissolve the ego, and we become what's left, which is pure non-self-reflective consciousness, but does this constitute "breaking through"? Is it the recognition and direct experience of a far greater consciousness than our own typical consciousness? The realization that our consciousness is just the tip of an iceberg? My own transcendent experiences have shown me firsthand the potential of consciousness (at least part of the potential), and have fundamentally changed me as a result. They provide me with a different type of motivation for my life's work, a motivation which I doubt few if any can fully appreciate. I've found your posts interesting and refreshing, and so I hope you will take the time to further clarify your thoughts on the nature of breaking through and other related issues of importance.

I will only add this: that entheogens are a clumsy way to expand consciousness, but they are the best way we have currently, if used properly and with due caution. Meditation does not reproduce some of the transcendent states of consciousness evoked by entheogens. This statement is from my own experience, and from reading of other's experiences in meditative states, which differ fundamentally from entheogen-induced transcendent states of consciousness. Of course many entheogen experiences are duds, but when used properly and in combination with the right nootropics and other neuroactive substances, can yield states of consciousness that are beyond anything that can be conceived or imagined. I am not recommending entheogens, and in fact would advise most people to stay away from them because they are dangerous when used improperly and without the proper mindset.




Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 03:13 PM

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 15, 2007, 03:56 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 13, 2007, 03:22 PM) *

Many people have never "broken through" on entheogens. Many cling to their ego so tightly psychedelics only give power to it. Ego-dissolution via entheogens is something not everyone encounters along their travels, but when the time comes it happens and attachmnent is dissolved. The plan now is distachment from the past, not simple, yet not confusing.


hi FP, and welcome. Can you please explain further what you mean by "breaking through"? Different entheogens evoke different experiences, as do their varied combinations (in addition to combining with nootropics and other neuroactive substances). Ego dissolution can be a tricky matter because we invariably identify with something in our consciousness. Dissolve the ego, and we become what's left, which is pure non-self-reflective consciousness, but does this constitute "breaking through"? Is it the recognition and direct experience of a far greater consciousness than our own typical consciousness? The realization that our consciousness is just the tip of an iceberg? My own transcendent experiences have shown me firsthand the potential of consciousness (at least part of the potential), and have fundamentally changed me as a result. They provide me with a different type of motivation for my life's work, a motivation which I doubt few if any can fully appreciate. I've found your posts interesting and refreshing, and so I hope you will take the time to further clarify your thoughts on the nature of breaking through and other related issues of importance.

I will only add this: that entheogens are a clumsy way to expand consciousness, but they are the best way we have currently, if used properly and with due caution. Meditation does not reproduce some of the transcendent states of consciousness evoked by entheogens. This statement is from my own experience, and from reading of other's experiences in meditative states, which differ fundamentally from entheogen-induced transcendent states of consciousness. Of course many entheogen experiences are duds, but when used properly and in combination with the right nootropics and other neuroactive substances, can yield states of consciousness that are beyond anything that can be conceived or imagined. I am not recommending entheogens, and in fact would advise most people to stay away from them because they are dangerous when used improperly and without the proper mindset.


Hello lucid dream, I will use a quote to help with my explanation -

The lowest dimension (1D) is the densest dimension, and the highest (9D) is the least dense; the lower dimensions have less space, the higher ones more. Density is governed by gravity, which coaxes light or photons into forms. Feel how intense and dense iron core crystal (1D) in the center of the Earth must be.
According to science, the center of Earth is a huge iron core crystal, and iron crystals are twice as dense as other mineral crystals. The second dimension (2D) is the area between the iron core crystal adn the crust; for example, the mantle. The second dimension is much dense than 3D, Earth's surface. We are solid in 3D, whereas 4D the collective realm of thoughtsand feelings emanating from all living things is not solid. We all can feel 4D and participate in i, such as sharing beliefs about history and religion.
As we move to higher dimensions - such as being in the heart (5D) or existing in sacred geometry(6D) - we experience each dimension going up the vertical axis as less dense, more spacious, more complex, and more difficult to explain in words. To move into the higher dimensions, we humans must expand ourselves, and to move into the lower dimensions, we must contract ourselves... The sixth dimension is the realm of geometric forms that replicates in 3D It is the home of the Ka - the human spirit body - which makes it possible for us to read the vibratory ranges that defines our bodies, emotions, thoughts, and souls. The seventh dimension (7D) is a realm of cosmic sound that generates the 6D geometric forms through vibratory resonance. The eight dimension is the realm of Divine Mind - Light - that manifests through the visible light spectrum in 3D. The frequencies of 8D are aactually much faster than sound waves in 7D in the galactic photon bands, which is why mystics report being "blinded by the light." The eight dimension is the organizational field of Light, where the energetic spin dynamics of sacred geometry originate; these dynamics then step down by octaves into 7D sound, before configuring as geometric light forms in 6D. the all-encompassing energetic realm of 8D is the reason we fell the love of God/Goddess/All That Is as a constant energy source in our lives.


What I mean by "breaking through", is breaking through attachment to 3rd and 4th dimensional confines and moving into higher dimensional states of being.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 04:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnN0ejyebv0

Posted by: Joesus Sep 15, 2007, 07:00 PM

QUOTE
you claim to believe that what one can experience on entheogens can be experienced through meditation alone. this is your truth based on your opinion and personal experience, and you are imposing it onto me. this is preaching.

Because you don't agree with it or can't grasp it does not make it my belief. The reality existed long before I gave it any thought. Expressing Truth does not make a preacher, maybe a purveyor of Truth.

QUOTE
Altered states induced by drugs is not a transcended state of consciousness.

This is your opinion and your personal experience. You do not know everyone's experience with "drugs" and how they alter human consciousness. You are imposing your truth onto me, this is what I mean by preaching.

I know that drugs alter the awareness artificially and do not create a transcended state of consciousness. They create a temporary experience which most likely cannot be repeated. Anyone who takes drugs and says they have the same experience is not speaking the truth.
Random shots of psychedelic experience is not a clear expression of consciousness nor are they consistent with the stability created in awareness when someone steps into higher states of consciousness, by naturally rising beyond beliefs and attachment to sensationalism.

Posted by: lucid_dream Sep 15, 2007, 09:12 PM

FP: these 9 dimensions serve an explanatory function for your experiences? Honestly, I don't share these views, not because I don't accept extra dimensions or because I seek to invalidate your thoughts (which I'm not), but because I do not believe we have yet devised the right language and tools for probing expanded mindsets and states of consciousness (or conscious awareness, if you prefer). It seems we are currently limited to describing consensus reality, and that reality is described in 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension. If I were to attribute dimensionality to consciousness, I would be inclined based on my experiences to speculate that it's infinite dimensional. The nature of consciousness is unbounded, is infinite. To set a finite number of dimensions to it is to limit it's nature, which I believe is unlimited. These are just my thoughts and speculations on the matter. I have nothing to back up these claims save my own experiences and mindsets, and from what I've read from others.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 09:19 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 15, 2007, 08:00 PM) *
you claim to believe that what one can experience on entheogens can be experienced through meditation alone. this is your truth based on your opinion and personal experience, and you are imposing it onto me. this is preaching.

Because you don't agree with it or can't grasp it does not make it my belief. The reality existed long before I gave it any thought. Expressing Truth does not make a preacher, maybe a purveyor of Truth.


That is your truth and your truth only. It is not my truth. We as individuals hold our own truth, based on our own personal experience. Imposing your truth onto others is preaching. Claiming that your truth is universal truth is illusion. The confined mind cannot know universal truth.


QUOTE
I know that drugs alter the awareness artificially and do not create a transcended state of consciousness.


Are drugs artificial? How is a mushroom artificial? It grows on this earth, it is perfectly natural. It works synergistically in the brain, and that is natural as well. I don't see what is so artificial.

That is your truth based on your personal experience and belief construct.

You have not been able to transcend ego via entheogens because you are too attached, and what the entheogens created was a reflection of your ego-mind. This reflection made you belief that entheogens are artificial and illusion. This belief is based on your personal experience. If you "broke through", you would not be telling me that entheogens cannot be a catalyst towards attaining a temporary transcendental state of consciousness.


QUOTE
They create a temporary experience which most likely cannot be repeated. Anyone who takes drugs and says they have the same experience is not speaking the truth.
Random shots of psychedelic experience is not a clear expression of consciousness nor are they consistent with the stability created in awareness when someone steps into higher states of consciousness, by naturally rising beyond beliefs and attachment to sensationalism.


This tells me that you have not broken through via entheogens. A psychedelic experience does not have to be limited to "an expression of consciousness". For me it is a realization and becoming of consciousness.

Sensationalism is of the 3rd and 4th dimensional consciousness - physical, emotional and mental. What I am speaking of is the higher more unified dimensions, specifically the 5th and 6th. Entheogens have allowed me to transcend attachment to 3rd and 4th dimensions, how can you tell me they haven't. Please tell me how you know so much about my personal experience.

Drugs, particularly entheogens, are the body of Christ and the main vehicle for the Holy Spirit. The Pope is against drugs, and thus is the antichrist.

http://egodeath.com/Entheogens.htm#_Toc64388184

Posted by: lucid_dream Sep 15, 2007, 09:25 PM

FP, where is your quote over the 9 dimensions from? I googled around unsuccessfully, only coming on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-Circuit_Model_of_Consciousness, which is a completely different model.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 09:39 PM

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 15, 2007, 10:12 PM) *

FP: these 9 dimensions serve an explanatory function for your experiences? Honestly, I don't share these views, not because I don't accept extra dimensions or because I seek to invalidate your thoughts (which I'm not), but because I do not believe we have yet devised the right language and tools for probing expanded mindsets and states of consciousness (or conscious awareness, if you prefer). It seems we are currently limited to describing consensus reality, and that reality is described in 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension. If I were to attribute dimensionality to consciousness, I would be inclined based on my experiences to speculate that it's infinite dimensional. The nature of consciousness is unbounded, is infinite. To set a finite number of dimensions to it is to limit it's nature, which I believe is unlimited. These are just my thoughts and speculations on the matter. I have nothing to back up these claims save my own experiences and mindsets, and from what I've read from others.


As we move to higher dimensions - such as being in the heart (5D) or existing in sacred geometry(6D) - we experience each dimension going up the vertical axis as less dense, more spacious, more complex, and more difficult to explain in words.

For those who have experienced 5d and 6d consciousness, using this language does work because we have experienced it and it is familiar. We have devised the right language, but only for those who have experienced or wish to understand more through experience. For those who have not experienced, this language simply will not work. For somebody who has not experienced 6d consciousness, thinking about it is just pointless and useless. It must be experienced. When it is experienced it is known, not through the ego-self but rather through connection with higher self. And this knowledge can be cultivated into normal everyday existence through meditation.

The nature of consciousness is unbounded, is infinite. To set a finite number of dimensions to it is to limit it's nature, which I believe is unlimited.

What is explained in that quote is the dimensions of densities. There is not an infinite amount of densities.

The lowest dimension (1D) is the densest dimension, and the highest (9D) is the least dense; the lower dimensions have less space, the higher ones more. Density is governed by gravity, which coaxes light or photons into forms. Feel how intense and dense iron core crystal (1D) in the center of the Earth must be.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 09:41 PM

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 15, 2007, 10:25 PM) *

FP, where is your quote over the 9 dimensions from? I googled around unsuccessfully, only coming on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-Circuit_Model_of_Consciousness, which is a completely different model.


It is hard to find this kind of information on Google. A friend who is a lightworker gave me this information.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 09:44 PM

Feel how intense and dense iron core crystal (1D) in the center of the Earth must be.

First there is water, then it looks for the mother, which is silica

And it always is in geothermical active volcanoes where there is pressure and a lot of heat

This creates in forms a quartz crystal in six sides

It grows right handed and left handed according to the largest face

It has positive and negative qualities on each of its faces

So thats why we can help our planet

Posted by: Enki Sep 15, 2007, 10:05 PM

Gentlemen, is it possible to avoid non-scientific ruminations in this topic?
I understand that in the section of the Magic Mushrooms one can express everything, especially after experiments with Mashrooms, but at the same time is it possible to preserve elements of the scientific argumentations and commons sense?

I understand that when Joesus introduces his ideas (preaching) in Harry Joesus mode (Mr. Know Everything about God, Mr. Holy Boy) intermingled with very specific vocabulary that certainly leads to some mental degradation of all those who read his mnemonic texts, it is difficult not to go astray and keep clarity of mind.

To: forgottenpresence,

Very depressing avatar btw. You like Bones & Sculls junior division #322?

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 15, 2007, 10:35 PM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 15, 2007, 11:05 PM) *

Gentlemen, is it possible to avoid non-scientific ruminations in this topic?
I understand that in the section of the Magic Mushrooms one can express everything, especially after experiments with Mashrooms, but at the same time is it possible to preserve elements of the scientific argumentations and commons sense?

I understand that when Joesus introduces his ideas (preaching) in Harry Joesus mode (Mr. Know Everything about God, Mr. Holy Boy) intermingled with very specific vocabulary that certainly leads to some mental degradation of all those who read his mnemonic texts, it is difficult not to go astray and keep clarity of mind.

To: forgottenpresence,

Very depressing avatar btw. You like Bones & Sculls junior division #322?


You bring up some very in-depth points, and I congratulate you on your attack.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 15, 2007, 10:44 PM

QUOTE
The confined mind cannot know universal truth.

That'd be a truth and you have confined yourself to what you know.

QUOTE


Are drugs artificial? How is a mushroom artificial? It grows on this earth, it is perfectly natural. It works synergistically in the brain, and that is natural as well. I don't see what is so artificial.


No amount of supposition regarding the mixing of earthly chemicals can do a better job than the body can do in its natural state of awareness when the mind is not limited and trying to create a state of mind.

QUOTE

You have not been able to transcend ego via entheogens because you are too attached, and what the entheogens created was a reflection of your ego-mind. This reflection made you belief that entheogens are artificial and illusion.

According to your own definitions, you are now preaching.
The mind does not need a suppository to shrink the ego. It can be done naturally without the illusions created by drugs of any kind.

QUOTE
If you "broke through", you would not be telling me that entheogens cannot be a catalyst towards attaining a temporary transcendental state of consciousness.

Temporary altered states are like taking a picture out the window of a fast moving train and then holding the picture out to the world saying I know what this image represents.
You are delusional.

QUOTE

This tells me that you have not broken through via entheogens. A psychedelic experience does not have to be limited to "an expression of consciousness". For me it is a realization and becoming of consciousness.

For you it means something and you cling to it as an experience of consciousness. But it still doesn't mean anything.

QUOTE

Sensationalism is of the 3rd and 4th dimensional consciousness - physical, emotional and mental. What I am speaking of is the higher more unified dimensions, specifically the 5th and 6th. Entheogens have allowed me to transcend attachment to 3rd and 4th dimensions, how can you tell me they haven't. Please tell me how you know so much about my personal experience.

How could I explain something to you, that which you can't comprehend without the use of drugs?
You don't believe anyone can be clearer than you so you couldn't possibly accept anything other than what fits within your own beliefs, so what would be the point? Anything I could possibly say would be to you, preaching.

Your glass is full, and you are not at this stage ready to empty it.

QUOTE

Drugs, particularly entheogens, are the body of Christ and the main vehicle for the Holy Spirit. The Pope is against drugs, and thus is the antichrist.


That'd be why there is such a lack of scripture written about conscious Saints, Siddhas or Sat-Gurus on entheogens. Conspiracy theories...

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 16, 2007, 05:50 AM

FP: I know what your saying, but I can't agree on this model. I can understand that matter and consciousness are far apart, possibly dimensions apart, but the model seems a little esoteric.

QUOTE(joesus)
That'd be why there is such a lack of scripture written about conscious Saints, Siddhas or Sat-Gurus on entheogens
Do you honestly believe that saints and such have been egoless when they've been visited by Angels and Demons in hallucinations? These visions couldn't be less egoless, less empty, and more important than all the meditation in history. If these effects are natural, then that is important! If these effects are caused by entheogens, then that is important too. To discard these issues is to hide from them, peek-a-boo...

Posted by: Joesus Sep 16, 2007, 06:18 AM

To develop conscious awareness in a natural way, that being a way that is natural to the nervous system without chemical manipulation is what is hailed in the ancient writings since the beginning of history.
There are also manipulations such as the altering of precious metals and combining them with herbs in the Egyptian rituals, but the evidence points to the degradation of knowledge when such manipulations are attempted.

By the way Celestials are everywhere and are naturally a part of the universe which is why the saints were able to see them. It doesn't require any drug to get a glimpse

Posted by: Enki Sep 16, 2007, 07:09 AM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 15, 2007, 10:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 15, 2007, 11:05 PM) *

Gentlemen, is it possible to avoid non-scientific ruminations in this topic?
I understand that in the section of the Magic Mushrooms one can express everything, especially after experiments with Mashrooms, but at the same time is it possible to preserve elements of the scientific argumentations and commons sense?

I understand that when Joesus introduces his ideas (preaching) in Harry Joesus mode (Mr. Know Everything about God, Mr. Holy Boy) intermingled with very specific vocabulary that certainly leads to some mental degradation of all those who read his mnemonic texts, it is difficult not to go astray and keep clarity of mind.

To: forgottenpresence,

Very depressing avatar btw. You like Bones & Sculls junior division #322?


You bring up some very in-depth points, and I congratulate you on your attack.


I do not make an attack, I am a peaceful being. I just make comments.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 01:03 PM

What is it like to Experience Expanded Consciousness?

In the following, I describe some of the dimensions along which consciousness may be transformed and expanded. These effects will not necessarily be experienced simultaneously, and are to some extent dependent on the individual. The following list is not meant to be exhaustive by any means, but rather highlights a few of the many interesting effects experienced during states of expanded consciousness.

Time Dilation

We've all experienced time dilation to some extent during 'normal' states of consciousness. In general, time dilation occurs when thought processes speed up while memory is left intact (if memory is not intact, you sense something happened but you won't know what or how much subjective time has passed). It's interesting that time dilation occurs along a spectrum. Normally, we may feel like an hour of subjective time has passed after only five minutes of objective time. However, there does not seem to be a limit concerning how much we can potentially dilate subjective time, and some mind enhancing/altering drugs have the property of taking time dilation to the extreme. What seems like entire lifetimes can be experienced in a few minutes.

Vastness

Imagine the sense of 'vastness' you experience when you gaze into the clear night sky. Now imagine that sense of vastness magnified a million-fold or more and you may begin to appreciate the type of expansion of perceptual spaces that occurs during this experience so that they become extremely vast, beyond anything 'normally' conceivable.
Body Expansion

The experience of one's 'body consciousness' extending outwards, usually far beyond one's immediate body. This particular mode of consciousness falls under the category of 'Cosmic Consciousness'. Normally, we have a 'body-consciousness', meaning we're conscious of our arms and legs, as our own and not somebody elses. 'Body Expansion' occurs when your 'body consciousness' extends beyond, usually far beyond, your immediate physical body. It's like your new body is your whole environment and that your 'old' body is simply a nexus or nodal point thru which your will exerts itself. Even during 'normal' consciousness, one can willfully enter into the proper mind-set for 'Body Expansion', though this may not work for everyone.
Ego-Death and the Experience of the 'Self'

The experience of the death of ones ego or 'self' can be frightening for some. I've experienced ego-death and near-death experiences many times (too many to count). Following ego-death, or the destruction of the individuals 'self', what remains is intense, non-reflective (or non-self-conscious) consciousness, the radiant 'Self' (presumably, this is the same 'Self' as revealed in ancient Eastern religious texts such as the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanashads, the same as experienced during states of 'Cosmic Consciousness', and the same as experienced by religious mystics). This is why such experiences are invariably mystical and religious. Through the death of ones 'self' and unveiling of the 'Self', one soon learns to identify oneself completely with the 'Self' thereafter, even if the ego subsequently re-crystallizes (it re-crystallizes, but remains 'transparent' in the sense of being able to see through it).

Presence

This involves vivid consciousness of a strong, ubiquitous 'presence'.

Higher-Dimensional Spatial Thought

Normally, we construct space and it's limited to 3 spatial dimensions. However, this limitation can be transcended, and grants one, among other things, the ability to discern patterns and connections in perceptual and conceptual thought not visible during 'normal' consciousness.

Ecstasy

This involves the experience of ecstasy and rapture far, far beyond what we're capable of experiencing normally. This experience has absolutely nothing to do with the 'ecstasy' experienced using the drug that goes by the same name, but rather involves an intensity and depth that far exceeds those produced by typical 'recreational' drugs.

Multi-Modal Integration

This experience involves integration across multiple modalities, such as visual, auditory, and proprioceptive, to yield new modalities that are greater than the sum of their parts.

God-Mode

I've half-jokingly called God-Mode an expanded state of consciousness that 'simultaneously' involves many of the above effects, including time dilation, body expansion, vastness, ecstasy, consciousness of the 'Self', and presence. There are many degrees and many types of 'Cosmic Consciousness'. God-Mode is perhaps the highest and most profound type of Cosmic Consciousness I've yet experienced.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 01:12 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 15, 2007, 11:44 PM) *

This tells me that you have not broken through via entheogens. A psychedelic experience does not have to be limited to "an expression of consciousness". For me it is a realization and becoming of consciousness.

For you it means something and you cling to it as an experience of consciousness. But it still doesn't mean anything.


It means that I had an experience of deep realization and becoming. Now I can take those realizations and realize them without the use of drugs but with meditation - Re-integration. This is what you fail to understand. You are the one who is misunderstanding and telling me everything I already know.


QUOTE
How could I explain something to you, that which you can't comprehend without the use of drugs?
You don't believe anyone can be clearer than you so you couldn't possibly accept anything other than what fits within your own beliefs, so what would be the point? Anything I could possibly say would be to you, preaching.


Everything you say is perfectly clear to me. It is you who deny and assume the experiences of others.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 01:15 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 16, 2007, 06:50 AM) *

FP: I know what your saying, but I can't agree on this model. I can understand that matter and consciousness are far apart, possibly dimensions apart, but the model seems a little esoteric.


You don't have to agree with this model, it is an example of the higher more spacial realms of consciousness and experience. Acceptance of what it is and what it possibly could be would be the more receptive approach. Denial is just another limitation.

To doubt or to believe are two
equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the
necessity of reflection

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 01:16 PM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 16, 2007, 08:09 AM) *

I do not make an attack, I am a peaceful being.


Yes, you sure are unsure.gif

There is no need for you to project your feelings of depression and sadness onto me. Where is the peace in that? wink.gif

Posted by: kortikal Sep 16, 2007, 01:49 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 16, 2007, 02:15 PM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 16, 2007, 06:50 AM) *

FP: I know what your saying, but I can't agree on this model. I can understand that matter and consciousness are far apart, possibly dimensions apart, but the model seems a little esoteric.


You don't have to agree with this model, it is an example of the higher more spacial realms of consciousness and experience. Acceptance of what it is and what it possibly could be would be the more receptive approach. Denial is just another limitation.

To doubt or to believe are two
equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the
necessity of reflection



I was thinking along the same lines!
You don't have to agree with the Tooth Fairy, it is an example of the higher more spacial realms of consciousness and experience. Acceptance of what it is and what it possibly could be would be the more receptive approach. Denial is just another limitation.

OMG, we must share a psychic connection, forgotmysense! Um, I mean, forgottenpresence. wink.gif

To all those stoopid deniers of the Tooth Fairy, take that!


Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 02:32 PM

QUOTE(kortikal @ Sep 16, 2007, 02:49 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 16, 2007, 02:15 PM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 16, 2007, 06:50 AM) *

FP: I know what your saying, but I can't agree on this model. I can understand that matter and consciousness are far apart, possibly dimensions apart, but the model seems a little esoteric.


You don't have to agree with this model, it is an example of the higher more spacial realms of consciousness and experience. Acceptance of what it is and what it possibly could be would be the more receptive approach. Denial is just another limitation.

To doubt or to believe are two
equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the
necessity of reflection



I was thinking along the same lines!
You don't have to agree with the Tooth Fairy, it is an example of the higher more spacial realms of consciousness and experience. Acceptance of what it is and what it possibly could be would be the more receptive approach. Denial is just another limitation.

OMG, we must share a psychic connection, forgotmysense! Um, I mean, forgottenpresence. wink.gif

To all those stoopid deniers of the Tooth Fairy, take that!


Shame the Tooth Fairy isn't a symbolic representation of consciousness expansion wink.gif


Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 02:38 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/aushadhi.html#N2

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 05:54 PM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 16, 2007, 08:09 AM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 15, 2007, 10:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 15, 2007, 11:05 PM) *

Gentlemen, is it possible to avoid non-scientific ruminations in this topic?
I understand that in the section of the Magic Mushrooms one can express everything, especially after experiments with Mashrooms, but at the same time is it possible to preserve elements of the scientific argumentations and commons sense?

I understand that when Joesus introduces his ideas (preaching) in Harry Joesus mode (Mr. Know Everything about God, Mr. Holy Boy) intermingled with very specific vocabulary that certainly leads to some mental degradation of all those who read his mnemonic texts, it is difficult not to go astray and keep clarity of mind.

To: forgottenpresence,

Very depressing avatar btw. You like Bones & Sculls junior division #322?


You bring up some very in-depth points, and I congratulate you on your attack.


I do not make an attack, I am a peaceful being. I just make comments.


I change my mind, I think you are a very disrespectful and hateful person, I feel shame for you and hope for your awakening.

I am this, I am that,

I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.

Socrates



A system of morality which is based on relative emotional values is a mere illusion, a thoroughly vulgar conception which has nothing sound in it and nothing true.
Socrates

All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine.
Socrates

An honest man is always a child.
Socrates

As for me, all I know is that I know nothing.
Socrates

As to marriage or celibacy, let a man take which course he will, he will be sure to repent.
Socrates

Be as you wish to seem.
Socrates

Be slow to fall into friendship; but when thou art in, continue firm and constant.
Socrates

Beauty is a short-lived tyranny.
Socrates

Beauty is the bait which with delight allures man to enlarge his kind.
Socrates

Beware the barrenness of a busy life.
Socrates

By all means marry. If you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher and that is a good thing for any man.
Socrates

By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates

Death may be the greatest of all human blessings.
Socrates

Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for.
Socrates

False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil.
Socrates

From the deepest desires often come the deadliest hate.
Socrates

He is a man of courage who does not run away, but remains at his post and fights against the enemy.
Socrates

He is richest who is content with the least, for content is the wealth of nature.
Socrates

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 16, 2007, 05:58 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 15, 2007, 11:44 PM) *

If you "broke through", you would not be telling me that entheogens cannot be a catalyst towards attaining a temporary transcendental state of consciousness.
Temporary altered states are like taking a picture out the window of a fast moving train and then holding the picture out to the world saying I know what this image represents.
You are delusional.


The difference between you and I, is that I can admit my delusions. That is self-realization.

Posted by: Enki Sep 16, 2007, 07:01 PM

Very interesting. I just made a small remark about the depressing character of your avatar. I wonder at your aggressive counter reaction indeed.

Besides I think a person quoting Socrates should be much more polite.

My non-polite comments related with Joesus writings were aimed at saving this wonderful topic about wonderful mushrooms which he and you overcrowded with words absolutely having NO connection with the subject. It is another question why you both do that ... There are posts where, when the clouds of the holy nimbus recede, it becomes possible to discuss something, but generally Joesus Olympus is in holy fog. Now I understand that he is not alone.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 16, 2007, 11:49 PM

QUOTE(Trojan_Libido)

Do you honestly believe that saints and such have been egoless when they've been visited by Angels and Demons in hallucinations? These visions couldn't be less egoless, less empty, and more important than all the meditation in history. If these effects are natural, then that is important! If these effects are caused by entheogens, then that is important too. To discard these issues is to hide from them, peek-a-boo...

QUOTE(Joesus)

To develop conscious awareness in a natural way, that being a way that is natural to the nervous system without chemical manipulation is what is hailed in the ancient writings since the beginning of history.
There are also manipulations such as the altering of precious metals and combining them with herbs in the Egyptian rituals, but the evidence points to the degradation of knowledge when such manipulations are attempted.


This is simply your interpretation of the facts. Isn't it fairly obvious that any drug use in history has been played down in our culture to keep up with our politicians current views - ie drugs are bad m'kay. Egyptian rituals were often conducted with the use of the Blue Lotus. There are images of this flower everywhere, including heiroglyphs of religious rites and the creation stories. Not many people know that the Egyptians had special wanking rooms, decorated with crude pornography and wine laced with Blue Lotus freely available. There are many depictions of this flower in scenes of fertility, ie orgies and such. Not suprisingly this aspect of Egyptian life is not on the curriculum in schools.

The Blue Lotus was featured in the TV program "Sacred Weeds" where they use volunteers to test out the effects of various plants used in religious ceremonies. The reason for the flowers usage is fairly obvious when you consider its effects. The participants felt quite euphoric and chatty, and had what looked like a mild ecstacy buzz. The difficulty of getting hold of this plant meant there was only a light dose available. Loving it up in ancient Egypt huh?

I'd ask people to not try and get hold of any of this plant, its extremely rare and has a chemical equivalent in the Ginkho Biloba supplements. This is known to increase oxygen flow which has the effect of helping impotency, improving concentration and other nice effects.

Egypt is one of the original sources of religion (if not THE source), and apparently the first anatomically correct humans came from the African plains which only strenghthens this fact.

So I strongly disagree with this statement:
To develop conscious awareness in a natural way, that being a way that is natural to the nervous system without chemical manipulation is what is hailed in the ancient writings since the beginning of history.

QUOTE(Joesus)
By the way Celestials are everywhere and are naturally a part of the universe which is why the saints were able to see them. It doesn't require any drug to get a glimpse


The Celestials are everywhere?? Can you kindly explain what this means, because to my crude understanding it seems like your saying that these invisible beings are all around us waiting to be seen by the next prophet or saint. This is a highly subjective view if thats the case, its also in the realm of Terrence McKennas view that there are entities "in" there (points to head).

We're trying to discuss the potentials within a REAL religious sacrament, not holy wine and rice paper. If these visions come without the sacrament then this is fine, but there has to be a mechanism for this to happen. If we find the mechanism through experiments with sacraments, then we will be better off for it - no?

Please keep the discussion on track, if you have nothing to add then please wait til you do.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 16, 2007, 11:51 PM

Oh almost forgot, FP and Enki behave smile.gif

Posted by: Enki Sep 17, 2007, 03:10 AM

I am sorry, that will not be repeated.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 17, 2007, 10:42 AM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 16, 2007, 08:01 PM) *

Very interesting. I just made a small remark about the depressing character of your avatar. I wonder at your aggressive counter reaction indeed.

Besides I think a person quoting Socrates should be much more polite.

My non-polite comments related with Joesus writings were aimed at saving this wonderful topic about wonderful mushrooms which he and you overcrowded with words absolutely having NO connection with the subject. It is another question why you both do that ... There are posts where, when the clouds of the holy nimbus recede, it becomes possible to discuss something, but generally Joesus Olympus is in holy fog. Now I understand that he is not alone.



Your sarcastic remarks are not polite, I am nice to those who are nice to me. Like a reflection...

My avatar is not depressing, it is depressing to you because you hold feelings of depression. It is only a perception, that is all. You obviously do not understand my avatar if you feel it is depressing. It only reflects the feelings you hold.

Posted by: Enki Sep 17, 2007, 05:41 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 17, 2007, 10:42 AM) *

You obviously do not understand my avatar if you feel it is depressing.


You even cannot imagine how well I do understand your avatar.

Posted by: Rick Sep 18, 2007, 09:34 AM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 17, 2007, 11:42 AM) *
... I am nice to those who are nice to me. Like a reflection...

Transcending mere reflection and becoming a source of love is an exercise of free will.

Now I suppose one might be thinking that everyone on this forum is fond of preaching. I usually resist that urge, for obvious reasons. I freely chose not to resist in this case.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 18, 2007, 10:47 AM

QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 18, 2007, 10:34 AM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 17, 2007, 11:42 AM) *
... I am nice to those who are nice to me. Like a reflection...

Transcending mere reflection and becoming a source of love is an exercise of free will.


We are all sources of love, not everybody is receptive and not everybody can see it. Some see an image and some see with heart. Those who are bound within feelings of depression and sadness and project those feelings onto others need help becoming aware of those projections. These are projections of the ego. This is all I mean. I was nice enough to state what I have observed and that is just honesty. My intentions were not to put down, rather to make Enki aware of how she attempts to puts others down. Sometimes I need a good whip from the master to realize where I have gone wrong.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 18, 2007, 10:49 AM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 17, 2007, 06:41 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 17, 2007, 10:42 AM) *

You obviously do not understand my avatar if you feel it is depressing.


You even cannot imagine how well I do understand your avatar.


I would enjoy hearing your interpretation of my avatar and how it is so depressing.

Posted by: Rick Sep 18, 2007, 02:39 PM

I think Enki enjoys being enigmatic.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 18, 2007, 09:52 PM

QUOTE

The difference between you and I, is that I can admit my delusions. That is self-realization.

Admitting you are delusional and realizing that you are delusional is, I guess, a form of self realization.

QUOTE
. I am nice to those who are nice to me. Like a reflection...

That'd be Conditional love. Like taking in your own reflection and spitting it back out.

QUOTE

We are all sources of love

Unless we are not...Like in a reflection.

QUOTE

This is simply your interpretation of the facts. Isn't it fairly obvious that any drug use in history has been played down in our culture to keep up with our politicians current views - ie drugs are bad m'kay.

I like that drugs are played down because they F**K with the intricate balance of the human nervous system rather than injecting conspiracy theories.
But you can stick to your story, 's OK by me.

QUOTE
The Blue Lotus was featured in the TV program "Sacred Weeds" where they use volunteers to test out the effects of various plants used in religious ceremonies.

OK.... TV is a good source of Egyptian historical fact. I guess I can ignore anything I know in favor of what your experts say.
QUOTE
So I strongly disagree with this statement:
To develop conscious awareness in a natural way, that being a way that is natural to the nervous system without chemical manipulation is what is hailed in the ancient writings since the beginning of history.

Damn.. I hate when that happens.. Not only do you disagree, you strongly disagree.. Oh poop!

QUOTE

The Celestials are everywhere?? Can you kindly explain what this means, because to my crude understanding it seems like your saying that these invisible beings are all around us waiting to be seen by the next prophet or saint.

No, what I was saying is that it has taken the consciousness of someone who has been labeled as a prophet or a saint to recognize these layers of reality which are ignored by someone who say.. Believes in Television as an authority for the meaning of life.

QUOTE

We're trying to discuss the potentials within a REAL religious sacrament,

We meaning you and anyone who agrees with certain perspectives?

QUOTE
If these visions come without the sacrament then this is fine, but there has to be a mechanism for this to happen. If we find the mechanism through experiments with sacraments, then we will be better off for it - no?

No. There is no mechanism. That is what makes a Saint a Saint or a prophet a prophet. They don't carry with them, a defined limitation and set it before all that is different from themselves, God and their peers, making claims to themselves that God is revealed through the magic of placebos.
If there was a mechanism it would be to turn off the ignore switch, in Self Awareness.

QUOTE


Please keep the discussion on track, if you have nothing to add then please wait til you do.


I'm still not getting what the beef is about regarding what is on track and what isn't.
Hey Hey started this conversation with me and started deleting my posts because I addressed his comments without meeting his expectations.
Enki starts a Topic on Mother Teresa and discusses present day Bipartisan Politics.

I believe I have included the topic subject matter of Mushrooms and God. Any political or religious attachment to God and the way God looks, be it like a mushroom or not is strictly personal.
If these discussions do not allow any opposing thought to the personal preferences of an irate member than perhaps said topics should include the reference to a rule that any opposing thoughts will not be tolerated with a guideline as to what subject matter shall include in the way of corresponding language and ideas that can be included in relationship to God, experiences of God, Mushrooms and experiences and opinions of mushrooms and experiences had with mushrooms, and God relating to the identification of God and mushrooms. huh.gif

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 18, 2007, 11:48 PM

QUOTE(joesus)
I like that drugs are played down because they F**K with the intricate balance of the human nervous system rather than injecting conspiracy theories.
But you can stick to your story, 's OK by me.
What conspiracy theory exactly? I find it amusing that you used the F word in capitals, you getting emotional on my ass? Be careful, you may lose your enlightened boy scout badge. Go tell the government to stop F**King with our human rights and forcing us to use THEIR alcohol. Maybe then I'll side with you.

QUOTE(joesus)
OK.... TV is a good source of Egyptian historical fact. I guess I can ignore anything I know in favor of what your experts say.
The story of wanking rooms came straight from a colleague who toured Egypt and was shown these rooms filled with pornographic heiroglyphs. The TV program contained valid experiments with empirical data. Also, if you don't know this about Egypt then you don't know much at all. Keep on attacking Joesus, you'll never be Ghandi.

QUOTE(trojan)
So I strongly disagree with this statement:
To develop conscious awareness in a natural way, that being a way that is natural to the nervous system without chemical manipulation is what is hailed in the ancient writings since the beginning of history.
QUOTE(joesus)
Damn.. I hate when that happens.. Not only do you disagree, you strongly disagree.. Oh poop!
I'm really feeling that childish interior seeping through in these posts. Defend your point rather than attacking. The fact is that drugs were used since the beginning of history and your statement was thrown in amongst the usual wailing without enough thought. We have used drugs since we've taken in food through our mouths, we will continue to use drugs no matter what laws and morality is around.

Its been said in another thread that the military utilise amphetamine on long missions. In Vietnam they dealt in cocaine. These are nasty drugs for sure, but clearly the US of A doesn't feel the war on drugs applies to their decisions. Wake up Joesus, seems you fell asleep whilst meditating 5 years ago...
This all has no bearing on the topic at hand.

QUOTE(joesus)
No, what I was saying is that it has taken the consciousness of someone who has been labeled as a prophet or a saint to recognize these layers of reality which are ignored by someone who say.. Believes in Television as an authority for the meaning of life.

You said "The Celestials" are everywhere. Now your talking like there are layers of reality filled with images of angels and demons and you can see them if your "holy" enough. Can anyone bring some science back into the thread please. You then attack me again for seeking to learn more about sacred plants used in Egyptian society from the only known filmed experiment. Just because this series was aired on TV doesn't make it a tabloid newspaper story, we're in the 21st century now Joesus, TV can have real programmes with real scientific value on.

QUOTE(Trojan)
We're trying to discuss the potentials within a REAL religious sacrament,
QUOTE(Joesus)
We meaning you and anyone who agrees with certain perspectives?

I don't care that you don't agree, I just care that you stop rambling on like some esoteric cult leader that you pretend to be. Just talk with some logic and I'll respect you more. Speak honestly about how we could address certain issues raised in this thread, and I'll respect you more.

Below is details of "Binocular Rivalry" reduction after intake of mushrooms (hallucinogenic effects blocked).
http://www.journalofvision.org/6/6/43/
What this means is the left and right eye stop fighting for attention in the brain, which brings about a clarity of vision. An evolutionary advantage to those hunter gatherers that ate these mushrooms in small doses. A religious/spiritual experience to those eating them in large doses. I have personal, but subjective, experience with these effects. Many others have too.

Finally, take a look at the description of this research:
http://www.research-projects.unizh.ch/p6528.htm
QUOTE
Specifically, we are investigating gestalt processing using the same Kanizsa paradigm we used with psilocybin (findings in preparation) as well as the same standardized perception/attention paradigm (P300). In addition, binocular rivalry and self-referential auditory processing (subject hearing their own name) will be assessed during 'thinking' vs. 'meditation' and compared with the effects due to psilocybin in future. These additional measures are of particular interest to the comparative effects of meditation and psilocybin as we and our collaborators have shown similar perceptual changes induced by meditation and psilocybin in both measures (Carter et al., 2005; Carter et al., 2005; Cahn and Polish, 2006)



Oh, I've been wanting to ask you Joesus. I saw your avatar on an online poker room the other day, wondered if it might have been you.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 19, 2007, 12:15 AM

Another example of historical religious mushroom usage, probably the only example required to counter some of Joesus opinions:

QUOTE
What they found in psilocybin was a natural drug that triggers a bewildering array of hallucinatory effects. It made such a big impression, in fact, that many believed the plant to be divinely-inspired, and incorporated the plant into religious rituals as long ago as 1,000 B.C. The Aztecs also practiced sacramental use of mushrooms, which they called teonanactl, or "flesh of the gods."
I can't seem to find any decent images of the stone mushroom people found in these historical sites. You can easily find one or two depictions though, and will have heard of them.

Here is another few scientific studies which correlates everything I have been saying which Joesus has attempted to dismiss. At least some scientists are leaving their bias at the door.

http://www.csp.org/psilocybin/Psilo2006071...iatricTimes.pdf
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithspsilocybinQ

Another more recent discovery about ancient Greece and Christianity:
http://www.entheomedia.org/eden4.htm (bottom part of page)


I'm also pretty sure that most hallucinogens don't act on the central nervous system, they only feel like they do because they are acting directly on the brain.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 19, 2007, 09:13 AM

QUOTE
What conspiracy theory exactly?

Ones like the government is responsible for the populations beliefs and experiences with drugs, or the Pope is the Antichrist etc etc.
QUOTE
I find it amusing that you used the F word in capitals, you getting emotional on my ass?

When writing your response
QUOTE
Go tell the government to stop F**King with our human rights and forcing us to use THEIR alcohol. Maybe then I'll side with you.

Are you getting emotional on my ass?
QUOTE
The story of wanking rooms came straight from a colleague who toured Egypt and was shown these rooms filled with pornographic heiroglyphs. The TV program contained valid experiments with empirical data. Also, if you don't know this about Egypt then you don't know much at all. Keep on attacking Joesus, you'll never be Ghandi.

I'm sure your friend and your empirical evidence describes perfectly the egyptians and their culture. Kinda like if someone in the far off future might make a decision about our planets culture during the '70's if they found an old copy of Deep Throat with Linda Lovelace. They might think we thought the womans clitoris was in her throat and sought only to find the perfect oral orgasm.

And you're right I'll never be Ghandi, but I don't follow you on the attack thing, didn't you mention earlier that this forum was for debating?
QUOTE
I'm really feeling that childish interior seeping through in these posts. Defend your point rather than attacking.

You mean defend myself from your attacks...
If I don't feel attacked do I still defend myself?
And by the way I'm not attacking you, just displaying another side to a thought.

QUOTE
The fact is that drugs were used since the beginning of history and your statement was thrown in amongst the usual wailing without enough thought.

Actually your defensive reaction might have been given without much understanding of my statements.
Sure drugs might have been used since the beginning of history, and people might have been just as stubborn about their ignorance since the beginning of history but that doesn't mean that people don't grow up and realize the power within themselves without the placebos used because of their superstitious beliefs in limitations.
QUOTE
we will continue to use drugs no matter what laws and morality is around.

We meaning those who believe they are a necessary part of the need and success to understand human potential. I won't argue that point, But... I will continue to say they aren't necessary.

QUOTE
Its been said in another thread that the military utilise amphetamine on long missions. In Vietnam they dealt in cocaine. These are nasty drugs for sure, but clearly the US of A doesn't feel the war on drugs applies to their decisions. Wake up Joesus, seems you fell asleep whilst meditating 5 years ago...
This all has no bearing on the topic at hand.

Okay.... So why are you bringing this up?

QUOTE

You said "The Celestials" are everywhere. Now your talking like there are layers of reality filled with images of angels and demons and you can see them if your "holy" enough.

No, that would be the belief that the church has used in the past. Everyone is Holy enough but not everyone is willing to allow themselves to be Holy enough. Some, (such as a few posting on this thread) believe their holiness extends itself beyond the normal capacities of human functioning and believe they must take the red pill to open their eyes. As such the search for the perfect red pill extends itself to hallucinogenics, forms of self flagellation, hair shirts and other forms of self torture, to force their nervous systems to bend to their self interpreted ideals because of delusions of separation and inadequacy (limitation).
QUOTE
You then attack me again for seeking to learn more about sacred plants used in Egyptian society from the only known filmed experiment. Just because this series was aired on TV doesn't make it a tabloid newspaper story, we're in the 21st century now Joesus, TV can have real programmes with real scientific value on.

Oh c'mon, suck it up and quit being so defensive. This is your life, and how you interpret it is how you set the stage for your own ability to rise beyond delusions of fear.
First you want to believe the government is influencing everyones beliefs. And now because its the 21st century, Television or mass media is a source for empirical evidence.

How much time do you spend with your inner self rather than extending your senses outward to electronic authority? Do you believe you can discover the meaning of life on TV?

QUOTE
I don't care that you don't agree, I just care that you stop rambling on like some esoteric cult leader that you pretend to be. Just talk with some logic and I'll respect you more.

Ah so.. the old bend over and take it my way and I'll still respect you in the morning tactic of seduction.

Nope you'll just have to go to your wanking room for what you want from me and pretend I've capitulated to your every whim.

QUOTE

Oh, I've been wanting to ask you Joesus. I saw your avatar on an online poker room the other day, wondered if it might have been you.

What?!! Someone else is using my avatar???? Bastard!!!!

QUOTE
I'm also pretty sure that most hallucinogens don't act on the central nervous system, they only feel like they do because they are acting directly on the brain.

And the brain is not connected to the central nervous system.........Or by saying "the central nervous system" does not mean it includes the brain and its natural functions. dry.gif

Posted by: Rick Sep 19, 2007, 09:35 AM

From trojan_libido's reference:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithspsilocybinQ

Q 4: Are you trying to find a short cut to the spiritual journey that some people pursue for years?

"Our focus in this research was to study the effects of psilocybin using the methods of modern psychopharmacology. It’s true that "transformative" changes in values, self-perception, and behaviors have been reported across cultures and eras as a consequence of mystical-type experience. This bears investigation."

Later, the interview quotes Huston Smith:

"Mystical experience seems to be as old as humankind, forming the core of many if not all of the great religious traditions. Some ancient cultures, such as classical Greece, and some contemporary small-scale cultures, have made use of psychoactive plants and chemicals to occasion such experiences. But this is the first scientific demonstration in 40 years, and the most rigorous ever, that profound mystical states can be produced safely in the laboratory. The potential is great."

It makes me wonder if Mother Teresa should have tried magic mushrooms for her spiritual isolation.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 19, 2007, 11:16 AM

I'm not going to bouce quote after quote to reiterate water under the bridge, but really... I used F**King in my last post as a parody of your usage, you picking up on it is like a pantomime.

My point is government uses drugs whenever it suits its needs, as should every other "Free" invididual. This does not mean anyone should do so lightly.

Try finding research on the Egyptian Lotus and you'll see its not something thats been extensively tested. The effects are not heavily documented and I wouldn't mind some clever soul finding another source, contradictory or otherwise. By repeating what I believe was video evidence of experiments carried out on "sacred" plants, in a documentary for UK tv, I assumed you could see the importance of this.

My comments on the CNS were not researched and I assumed the CNS was connected to the brain, not that the brain counts as a part of it. My mistake. Its common to feel sensations on the skin or in the body whilst on hallucinogens that have nothing to do with the physical connections in the body, ie the sensation happens in the brain. I'm capable of saying I'm wrong, of considering other evidence.

The evidence of drug use prior to a shift into non-drug induced states is there, our written history shows this. You seem to avoid the points I've raised, only to pick on some delivery method i've chosen. I read a series of essays in http://www.amazon.com/Psychoactive-Sacramentals-Entheogens-Religion-Entheogen/dp/1889725021 and it seems like a good range of experiences by a good sample of open minded individuals. It recounts tales of people at a conference on how to move forward, switzerland or somewhere. What I'm trying to say is that if there are methods to induce humility, cohesiveness and general well being for society through religious communion, then I wish we could put asside all religious differences, find the "god" switch and scientifically turn it on. We need to explore the possibility that all methods are useful, and all should be openly discussed and assimilated into the 21st centuries religious practices.

Not many on this board seem to be interested in the debate, it seems it polarises people like marmite.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 19, 2007, 11:38 AM

QUOTE
The evidence of drug use prior to a shift into non-drug induced states is there, our written history shows this. You seem to avoid the points I've raised, only to pick on some delivery method i've chosen.

I only addressed the reality that there is no necessity for one to take drugs prior to realizing they could have the same experience of cosmic reality without them and much more stable and permanent one at that.
I never said people don't stumble before they stand or walk.

But everyone who reacted to that idea seemed to want to defend their choices and I still wonder if they know why. I could reiterate why but it would only create a disturbance in the dark side of the force. happy.gif

QUOTE

It makes me wonder if Mother Teresa should have tried magic mushrooms for her spiritual isolation.

She probably did in another lifetime. But then she wouldn't have been remembered as a saint for having artificially enhanced her heart driven desire and subsequent vision of humanitarianism.

Posted by: Rick Sep 19, 2007, 12:00 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 19, 2007, 12:16 PM) *
... find the "god" switch and scientifically turn it on.

Flipping the god switch could be dangerous. Look at what it's done to the Islamist world. But then, perhaps if, as you say, people could put aside their religious differences... (there goes a flying pig now)

I would rather people find their "reason" switch.

Posted by: Rick Sep 19, 2007, 12:03 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 19, 2007, 12:38 PM) *
She probably did in another lifetime.

For individuals to have previous lifetimes requires some mechanism for keeping or transferring these past states to present ones. I don't think such mechanisms exist. A simpler metaphor is that individual rain drops return to the sea at the end of their journey. Once returned, it's impossible to tell one drop from another.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 19, 2007, 12:23 PM

QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 19, 2007, 08:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 19, 2007, 12:38 PM) *
She probably did in another lifetime.

For individuals to have previous lifetimes requires some mechanism for keeping or transferring these past states to present ones.

Like the experience of physical death and the reorientation of ones self into duality without automatic memory of the past. Or enlightenment to reawaken one to their past.
QUOTE
I don't think such mechanisms exist. A simpler metaphor is that individual rain drops return to the sea at the end of their journey. Once returned, it's impossible to tell one drop from another.

The definitive end to the journey is in question here.
When does one leave the ocean?

Posted by: rhymer Sep 19, 2007, 12:30 PM

Rick said "I would rather people find their "reason" switch."

I think it most probable that some people do not have a 'reason' switch, or they have the switch but not good 'circuitry'.
Most human capabilities vary from person to person: often deficiencies or strengths are most noticeable in any one person, but more frequently the cause of less easily identifiable capabilities such as 'false conclusions' is hidden.

Posted by: Rick Sep 19, 2007, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 19, 2007, 01:23 PM) *
When does one leave the ocean?

Good question. In a sense, one never really does, yet so many seem so disconnected. I am not continually mindful of it. Or am I?

Posted by: Joesus Sep 19, 2007, 05:25 PM

QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 19, 2007, 10:04 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 19, 2007, 01:23 PM) *
When does one leave the ocean?

Good question. In a sense, one never really does, yet so many seem so disconnected. I am not continually mindful of it. Or am I?

Would you say you have a choice?

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 20, 2007, 08:21 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 18, 2007, 10:52 PM) *


QUOTE
The difference between you and I, is that I can admit my delusions. That is self-realization.

Admitting you are delusional and realizing that you are delusional is, I guess, a form of self realization.


Mostly everyone brought up in todays society has their own delusions. Some are more delusional than others. In todays world, mostly all of us are encased in a thought process. For some people it is more translucent and for others it is opaque, depending on their rate of self-realization. This is what you fail to realize. Those who can realize their thought process, their projections of it, their opinions and beliefs are on the path of self-realization. Those who hold on to their delusions so closely are not. I have observed your delusions countless times yet you persist to remain encased in them and fail to realize them. I don't see you ever breaking out of your box, your attitude is that you know everything. This is the attitude of an egomaniac. Self-realization can show you this.

I can realize that everything I say here is only a manifestation, a creation by a part of me that I practice to realize. Having realized this I can drop attachment to it and carry on with my life. You continuously have something to prove, and constantly defend your belief that I have not experienced transcendental states of consciousness via entheogens. You failed to read that I stated this was only a temporary experience. I stated that this temporary experience can be re-integrated into everyday sober existence via meditation. This re-integration allows for realization of the higher self through meditation. You failed to understand this. You have not realized where I am coming from. This is how I know you lack self-realization. I know what I have experienced, you cannot tell me what I have. This is ignorance and this makes you delusional and unaware of it. You project your story onto others and if they don't agree with you they are wrong. You have not proved anything to me, you keep going in circles around yourself trying to prove the same thing you did since post one. Everything you tell me is the same, some of which I agree and some of which I don't. Quit going around in circles and let's get to the point.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 20, 2007, 08:31 AM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 17, 2007, 06:41 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 17, 2007, 10:42 AM) *

You obviously do not understand my avatar if you feel it is depressing.


You even cannot imagine how well I do understand your avatar.


Enki, why are you hiding?

If you understand my avatar so well, then please give me your interpretation on the truth of it and why you feel it is so depressing. If you cannot do this, there is no validity to any of the posts you have made towards me.

Or you can keep hiding in fear.

I have faith and hope that you will come out clean.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 20, 2007, 09:36 AM

QUOTE

I can realize that everything I say here is only a manifestation, a creation by a part of me that I practice to realize

Or more specifically a mirrored reflection of where you currently are, with no direction to go, but imagining that there is.
QUOTE
You continuously have something to prove, and constantly defend your belief that I have not experienced transcendental states of consciousness via entheogens. You failed to read that I stated this was only a temporary experience.

This temporary experience is not a transcendental state of consciousness but an experience that you label a transcendental state of consciousness.
QUOTE
I stated that this temporary experience can be re-integrated into everyday sober existence via meditation.

Anyone can integrate an experience into their lives by simple acknowledgement, it doesn't require meditation, but then you like to be dramatic.
QUOTE
I know what I have experienced, you cannot tell me what I have.

As someone said before, know what you know, until the experience changes and you know something different.
In other words cling to your present experience and interpretation and believe you are on a path of self realization.
QUOTE
You have not proved anything to me

Now if you could just get that this applies to you, you'd stop foaming at the mouth.

QUOTE
Everything you tell me is the same, some of which I agree and some of which I don't.

Finding a universal constant is a good place to begin your search.

Posted by: Rick Sep 20, 2007, 12:37 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 19, 2007, 06:25 PM) *
Would you say you have a choice?

As an advocate of the "free will" position in the human condition, I have no choice but to say "yes." (Otherwise, I would be a liar, which I choose not to be.)

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 20, 2007, 04:39 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 20, 2007, 10:36 AM) *

QUOTE
You continuously have something to prove, and constantly defend your belief that I have not experienced transcendental states of consciousness via entheogens. You failed to read that I stated this was only a temporary experience.


This temporary experience is not a transcendental state of consciousness but an experience that you label a transcendental state of consciousness.


This is where we split paths.. sleep.gif

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 20, 2007, 05:46 PM

What is the nature of transcendental consciousness?

Maharishi: It is unity consciousness, an encounter with the field of unified consciousness. In transcendental consciousness, the mind experiences itself, intelligence experiences itself. The mind is the observer of its own reality. In that state, the mind is transcendental consciousness.

Just as the quiet surface of the ocean is the source from which all waves arise, so the self-fulfilled state of mind, which we call transcendental consciousness, is the source of all activity. We call it the unified field of natural law, from which all the different laws of nature emerge and conduct their specific activities in the relative world.


Please tell me why this can't be experienced with the help of entheogens.

And don't tell me it's because entheogens induce a temporary experience. A state is a state, an experience is an experience. Why does it have to be permanent to be considered a transcendental state? Who lays this rule... you? I and many others have experienced transcendental states with the help of entheogens. Denying our experiences proves that you have not realized the nature of your consciousness and awareness. If you have then you have forgotten, and I hope for your awakening and breaking free from conditioning.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 20, 2007, 06:11 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 20, 2007, 10:36 AM) *

In other words cling to your present experience and interpretation and believe you are on a path of self realization.


Clinging to one's experience and interpretation is not a path to self-realization. Clinging is attachment, if you do this you are cut off from potential realization. Realization occurs when there is a gap in the thought process, at this moment self-realization occurs. As this gap is cultivated into everyday existence, awareness of one's existence expands. Clinging to an experience and an interpretation is clinging to the process which is preventing this gap from coming into awareness.

Entheogens can help one to attain a large and long gap in the thought process. During this gap deep and expanded self-realization occurs as time slows down. Ask anybody who has broken through, they will tell you there was a gap in their ordinary thought process. It is too common for you to tell me this does not happen. This temporary state of deep, expanded and extended self-realization is so intense that it can manifest into everyday existence through whatever it takes to bring that "gap" of awareness into being - being aware/meditating, nature, music, yoga, taoist esoteric yoga, tantra, exercise, etc. Entheogens do not prevent one from attaining this gap. This is your belief and opinion that they do, and you fail to provide any proof towards the validity of them. Yet you remain blind to your beliefs and would never enter a vulnerable, receptive state of being.

I do not hold an interpretation for what I have experienced. I express memories of it and that is it. You cannot tell me I do not know what I have experienced. That is like me telling you that you have never walked or drank water. Those are experiences that are so real to you, that for me to deny them is absurd. I know that I have experienced ego dissolution because I have been ego-less. For you to deny this is to see through complete ignorance. You continue to prove yourself as one who is not realized, and continue to project the ego that emanates so brightly from your words.

Posted by: Enki Sep 20, 2007, 07:44 PM

QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 19, 2007, 09:35 AM) *

It makes me wonder if Mother Teresa should have tried magic mushrooms for her spiritual isolation.


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Hehehehe!!! Good question, very good question.

Posted by: Enki Sep 20, 2007, 07:53 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 20, 2007, 08:31 AM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 17, 2007, 06:41 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 17, 2007, 10:42 AM) *

You obviously do not understand my avatar if you feel it is depressing.


You even cannot imagine how well I do understand your avatar.


Enki, why are you hiding?

If you understand my avatar so well, then please give me your interpretation on the truth of it and why you feel it is so depressing. If you cannot do this, there is no validity to any of the posts you have made towards me.

Or you can keep hiding in fear.

I have faith and hope that you will come out clean.


I do really wonder how you dare to apply childish tactics of challenging me like in kindergarten?
And I strongly do not recommend you not to use the word fear in this context.
Have a nice day.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 20, 2007, 08:18 PM

QUOTE
Maharishi: It is unity consciousness, an encounter with the field of unified consciousness. In transcendental consciousness, the mind experiences itself, intelligence experiences itself. The mind is the observer of its own reality. In that state, the mind is transcendental consciousness.

Just as the quiet surface of the ocean is the source from which all waves arise, so the self-fulfilled state of mind, which we call transcendental consciousness, is the source of all activity. We call it the unified field of natural law, from which all the different laws of nature emerge and conduct their specific activities in the relative world.

Please tell me why this can't be experienced with the help of entheogens.

Because the entheogens alter the nervous system from its natural state and the experience that comes of this is conditioned.
QUOTE
I hope for your awakening and breaking free from conditioning

Interesting that you missed your own advice. To break from conditioning. That would include conditioning the mind to alter its perception to create an experience rather than to allow it to awaken to that which is ever present but ignored, even in the waking state..
QUOTE

Clinging to one's experience and interpretation is not a path to self-realization.

Boy howdy...
QUOTE
You continue to prove yourself as one who is not realized, and continue to project the ego that emanates so brightly from your words.

Making comparisons, defining ones own enlightenment, claiming to be enlightened, that is what the ego does,
Identify with the image.

Posted by: lucid_dream Sep 20, 2007, 08:45 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 20, 2007, 09:18 PM) *
Because the entheogens alter the nervous system from its natural state


What is the natural state of the nervous system?

I do believe that entheogens, under certain circumstances and for certain people, can awaken or otherwise strengthen a consciousness (or awareness of consciousness if you prefer) that is retained long after the otherwise transient entheogen experience. It is the consciousness, through direct experience, of the infinitely vast and myriad nature of consciousness. I do not think there is currently any other way to experience this consciousness (or more precisely, to become this consciousness or aware of this consciousness), except through a serious 'jolt' to the nervous system, a jolt that wakes up all the otherwise quiescent neurons, resulting in coherent brain activity that is the neural correlate for an amazing, awe-inspiring mode of expanded consciousness, a jolt which fundamentally alters one's sense of being.


Posted by: Enki Sep 20, 2007, 09:23 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 18, 2007, 09:52 PM) *

QUOTE

The Celestials are everywhere?? Can you kindly explain what this means, because to my crude understanding it seems like your saying that these invisible beings are all around us waiting to be seen by the next prophet or saint.

No, what I was saying is that it has taken the consciousness of someone who has been labeled as a prophet or a saint to recognize these layers of reality which are ignored by someone who say.. Believes in Television as an authority for the meaning of life.


Btw Joesus,

Do you take into account the opinion (including political opinion) of the Celestials you are talking about? I am just asking a question. I mean how do you regulate your relations with The Invisible Empire esp when you use your particular logo-username.

tongue.gif

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 18, 2007, 09:52 PM) *

Hey Hey started this conversation with me and started deleting my posts because I addressed his comments without meeting his expectations.
Enki starts a Topic on Mother Teresa and discusses present day Bipartisan Politics.


Really. You think we all shoud come intact with your mode?

Posted by: Enki Sep 20, 2007, 09:27 PM

Coming back to the mushrooms.

Can we draw some systematic knowledge out of that experimental observations by the Inductive Method?

How many people see the same things under the same dosage?

Posted by: lucid_dream Sep 20, 2007, 10:25 PM

I should just point out that if you are considering entheogens, at least do the research to find out precisely what the risks are, and equally important, to find out exactly how your brain will be effected at the cellular, molecular, and behavioral levels. For most people, probably 99%, they should not experiment with drugs for enhancing, modifying, and more fully awakening their consciousness. For the remaining 1%, do your research. If you don't know precisely how a drug or combination of drugs will effect your brain, then it's probably best to steer clear.

Do you know how shrooms effect the brain, Enki? They're kind of a lightweight drug, right? Is it worth the bother?

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 20, 2007, 11:59 PM

For me the onset is a restlessness in the mid section of the body, like your harbouring a huge ball of energy. This strange feeling in the body usually tips you into one of two comeup-modes, and usually this point is fairly crucial, its giggles or restlessness/paranoia.

After ten to thirty minutes the visual effects take hold. This is a very slow ebbing of the vision, from the centre out. I've had this effect naturally when I've been ill with a temperature, size distortions or perspective changes. Mushrooms always give the same superficial distortions, like a mass of distorting snakes moving from the centre of the iris to behind the eyes, although they never actually get anywhere. Surfaces breath, colours seem to cycle through shades without changing colour, sizes alter without changing size, tracers appear on the edge of moving objects.

Its all a lot to take in and can be very uncomfortable because there is no off switch at this point. The best thing that can happen is you and friends laugh yourself to a self-supporting ecstacy, complete with halo's around your friends faces etc. The worst is you fear that their laughs are directed at you, become withdrawn and have a real bad time of it. Both are equally likely in the inexperienced.

If your meditating or using it in a ritual setting, this is the point where you throw off your hardwired static behaviours and thought processes. Everything around you looks and seems amazing, like a child who is discovering things for the first time (without trying to eat everything it sees wink.gif ). This part of the experience is probably the most sought after, if you can be stable and have no worries, then its the most creative part of the experience. I'm often stunned into silence at this point, and in some circumstances I can't actually function because of the barrage of stimuli.

The middle to end of the trip is incredibly introspective, and I do recognise that this introspection can include things like "why don't i do better at this or that", "I wish I'd not poisoned myself, I want to sleep" or "If I did x or y, my life would be better". This is when the fear can eat you up if you let it. Meditation techiniques are very handy here, because you would do well to not get wrapped up in any of these thoughts. Its interesting to compare Buddha's story of enlightenment, and the things he has to go through, with this experience.

The final phase for me is the longest and gives you incredible insight into things. I know it sounds like a cliche, but your thought is supercharged and can run several trains of thought at once. For instance if you see a program you really enjoy normally, you will probably see it for what it is. The acting will be wooden, the script will seem obvious, the intentions of the script writer will be easily understood, the target market is obvious. Its definately a strange feeling, a kind of pompous deja vu.

The brain prefilters lots of options that are possible but unlikely to help you as an organism.

Example: your hungry, what to do?
option 1 - find food in your immediate vicinity
option 2 - take food from another person in the vicinity
option 3 - don't eat
option 4 - grow food right here and now
option 5 - eat the worms beneath your feet

Now normally a person will only have options 1 and 3 pushed into their conscious, the brain will have remembered favourable options and kept those for future reference. However all options are evaluated, but this is done subconsciuosly. The feeling on mushrooms that your filters have all been removed is extraordinary. Senses seem alight with information, and you can feel your brain fleeting across all the options available to you, something we're not used to. I believe this is where the creativity comes from, unfiltered and entirely free thought.

Now its easy for a pesimistic outlook that states "What about option 6 - kill anyone nearby and eat them". Well I've never heard of that at all, all emotions are heightened but that only makes guilt and fear of persecution even higher on your personal agenda. I'd also like to take a moment and recount a friends experience of being ill with a fever. He used to get hallucinations from the fever and at one point he was having a mental argument about whether to go and kill his step father. Something in the hallucination was causing him to wrestle with himself, whilst still understanding its all in his head and down to the fever. Sounds crazy right? Well its not uncommon for people to go into delerius self-created realities whilst ill, its only the extremity of this one which is shocking. If you've heard the phrase "lost in thought" then your halfway there. Point is, the fear of the mental instability that can come from altering consciousness is a fear of something thats not specific to mushrooms. A fever can be more deadly to all concerned.

The afterglow of the experience is easily equated to feeling the sunrise on your face after a hard night being hunted by wolves. Whether its the relief from coming back to Earth, the new personal revelations, the reconnecting back with nature or what but its a well documented feeling. Its always a positive experience.

It doesn't take a genius to see why the experience is sought after, revered and feared all at the same time, or why anyone with a tendency toward psychotic may go over the edge of sanity cliff. But no pain no gain right?

Posted by: Joesus Sep 21, 2007, 06:33 AM

QUOTE

What is the natural state of the nervous system?

I do believe that entheogens, under certain circumstances and for certain people, can awaken or otherwise strengthen a consciousness (or awareness of consciousness if you prefer) that is retained long after the otherwise transient entheogen experience.

No doubt.
Maslow spoke about the Peak Experience which awakens in some the desire to pursue transcendental states of consciousness to regain the effects during the peak experience.
Here is an interesting link.
http://www.drugtext.org/library/reports/cu/CU66.html
In the report it suggests that children often enter altered states of consciousness by spinning until they fall to the ground, hyperventilating, and that people in general are seeking a more natural state of mind that will relieve them of the anxieties of stress.
Experiences included as "Altered states of Consciousness" are varied from drug induced to losing time while driving.

In order for a state of consciousness to be called a state of consciousness there is usually the subjective and objective experience that exists, and to specialize ones memory in favor of past experience does not make for a change in daily functioning.

If one is more effective in their lives when they are unburdened by stress and anxiety it would tend to point to the idea that a more natural state of the nervous system would be one that is less stressed by things that would alter the ability to function in daily activity.
If the tendency exists to escape from the activity because it is stressful through any means then what is abnormal about daily activity to motivate one to find an alternate experience?
If one can only bring a memory back with them by their means of escape then the effects are not effective enough to change the perception of activity if the process has to be repeated to gain an experience.
In order for a process to be effective the effects should be long term and lasting rather than just a memory.

I won't deny that there are certain psychological effects and physical effects in reminiscing over past experiences but to effectively change the physical and mental perceptions of activity there should be something more substantial one can draw into their waking, sleeping and dreaming experience which would sufficiently change the characteristics of these states of consciousness so that there is no need to escape activity.
Not all systems of meditation are effective enough to accomplish this and certainly no drug capable of doing this unless the drug is produced by the body and in quantity consistent with every moment, or one continually takes the drug to alter the effects of the mind and body consistently.
QUOTE
Btw Joesus,

Do you take into account the opinion (including political opinion) of the Celestials you are talking about? I am just asking a question. I mean how do you regulate your relations with The Invisible Empire esp when you use your particular logo-username.

How do you separate your personal opinion from activity so that you may more openly experience life beyond your own identification?
QUOTE

Really. You think we all shoud come intact with your mode?

No that takes more of an open mind. Generally speaking people are too attached to their own personal mode to allow for anything different, which is why they tend to get emotional and make statements like "you totally fucked this up." IF one is attached to seeing things their way then they aren't capable of seeing it any other way.

Posted by: Enki Sep 21, 2007, 10:10 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 21, 2007, 06:33 AM) *

QUOTE
Btw Joesus,

Do you take into account the opinion (including political opinion) of the Celestials you are talking about? I am just asking a question. I mean how do you regulate your relations with The Invisible Empire esp when you use your particular logo-username.

How do you separate your personal opinion from activity so that you may more openly experience life beyond your own identification?
QUOTE

Really. You think we all shoud come intact with your mode?

No that takes more of an open mind. Generally speaking people are too attached to their own personal mode to allow for anything different, which is why they tend to get emotional and make statements like "you totally fucked this up." IF one is attached to seeing things their way then they aren't capable of seeing it any other way.


You know, you possibly reached to such a high level of ontological development in English that such an humble person like me from such a far away country is unable to understand clearly your modality.

Poor Hey Hey and me we both are not capable of seeing it in any other way.

There are two ways: or you regulate the relations mentioned above, or even such a specific username will not firewall some cybernetic phenomena. Do you understand me Mr. Andersen? It is just a recommendation from a good 'enigmatic' Enki.

You overcrowd the topic by texts which damp processes. I made that my comment with the usage of word F to draw your special attention to that problematic matter.

Posted by: Enki Sep 21, 2007, 10:20 AM

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 20, 2007, 10:25 PM) *

Do you know how shrooms effect the brain, Enki? They're kind of a lightweight drug, right? Is it worth the bother?


Yes I read something about that. Yap lightweight drug. No.

The danger springs from parallel ideas which generate and percolate like fire
spreads through barren grass.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 21, 2007, 10:52 AM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 20, 2007, 08:53 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 20, 2007, 08:31 AM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 17, 2007, 06:41 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 17, 2007, 10:42 AM) *

You obviously do not understand my avatar if you feel it is depressing.


You even cannot imagine how well I do understand your avatar.


Enki, why are you hiding?

If you understand my avatar so well, then please give me your interpretation on the truth of it and why you feel it is so depressing. If you cannot do this, there is no validity to any of the posts you have made towards me.

Or you can keep hiding in fear.

I have faith and hope that you will come out clean.


I do really wonder how you dare to apply childish tactics of challenging me like in kindergarten?
And I strongly do not recommend you not to use the word fear in this context.
Have a nice day.


Quit making up delusions and control your anger. You made a negative comment on my avatar, and I want to know why. Simple as that, I don't understand why you can make a comment like that and have no explanation.

There is obviously something you do not understand about my avatar. It is in no way depressing, that is only your perception. I asked you why you felt that way, yet you hid from my question like you don't have an answer. sleep.gif

If you make such a comment, back it up. That is all I'm asking here. No childish tactics intended.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 21, 2007, 11:02 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 20, 2007, 09:18 PM) *

QUOTE
Maharishi: It is unity consciousness, an encounter with the field of unified consciousness. In transcendental consciousness, the mind experiences itself, intelligence experiences itself. The mind is the observer of its own reality. In that state, the mind is transcendental consciousness.

Just as the quiet surface of the ocean is the source from which all waves arise, so the self-fulfilled state of mind, which we call transcendental consciousness, is the source of all activity. We call it the unified field of natural law, from which all the different laws of nature emerge and conduct their specific activities in the relative world.

Please tell me why this can't be experienced with the help of entheogens.


Because the entheogens alter the nervous system from its natural state and the experience that comes of this is conditioned.


That doesn't tell me anything. sad.gif

How is this a conditioned experience if all conditioning is transcended and one is totally engulfed in the experience of the now? I can condition myself into the experience by taking an entheogen, but what happens after that is beyond conditioning. This experience allows me to more easily transcend conditioning without the use of drugs.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 21, 2007, 11:05 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 21, 2007, 07:33 AM) *

In order for a state of consciousness to be called a state of consciousness there is usually the subjective and objective experience that exists, and to specialize ones memory in favor of past experience does not make for a change in daily functioning.


There is a difference between remembering and realization. Haven't understood this part yet have you?

And who are you to determine what is a state of consciousness? Everything is consciousness. Everything is energy. I do not have to remember this, I can realize it. And my entheogenic experiences have allowed me to realize more often. Realization sir, realize it.

Posted by: Orbz Sep 21, 2007, 05:10 PM

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 22, 2007, 02:20 AM) *

The danger springs from parallel ideas which generate and percolate like fire
spreads through barren grass.


I like that, well put.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 21, 2007, 05:36 PM

QUOTE

You overcrowd the topic by texts which damp processes. I made that my comment with the usage of word F to draw your special attention to that problematic matter.

That would be due the inability to comprehend and use the English language you were speaking of?

QUOTE
That doesn't tell me anything.

Why does that not surprise me
QUOTE


How is this a conditioned experience if all conditioning is transcended and one is totally engulfed in the experience of the now?

The nervous system is sufficiently altered to stress it, creating a delusional experience. The mind then after coming down attaches itself to what it believes is a transcendental state of consciousness by taking the definitions it has accumulated in the waking state and applying it to the experience.
Then as you have made it abundantly clear, you have a memory and then by the same process draw from memories to influence your state of mind and your identification with enlightenment.
QUOTE

I can condition myself into the experience by taking an entheogen, but what happens after that is beyond conditioning. This experience allows me to more easily transcend conditioning without the use of drugs.

What happens after that is a result of the conditioning of the nervous system by the hallucinogen.
You have some memories and now you want to convince the world you have achieved an egoless state of mind by referring to your past, a past memory that you called the now experience.
Pick it up put it down, pick it up put it down, refer to another moment in time and make a claim.

QUOTE
There is a difference between remembering and realization. Haven't understood this part yet have you?

I understand what you said earlier.
QUOTE

I do not hold an interpretation for what I have experienced. I express memories of it and that is it.



QUOTE
And who are you to determine what is a state of consciousness? Everything is consciousness. Everything is energy. I do not have to remember this, I can realize it. And my entheogenic experiences have allowed me to realize more often. Realization sir, realize it.

You take drugs to accomplish what a child knows and lives and what anyone knows in their heart. The reason you take drugs is because you believe it will facilitate your way back when there is no where to go but to let go of the belief that anything keeps you from experiencing it. In other words the energy you experience before you break thru isn't the kind of energy that you desire to know until after you take a trip with the mushrooms.
You say it gives you a second set of eyes but what could the eye(s) possibly achieve in the containment of the energy that is everything when all you are left with is a memory of an experience. You might get a glimpse of something but as you label it, it becomes less of consciousness than you would like it to be as you attempt to create the infinite into a finite moment in time and space. Consciousness cannot be experienced but you can experience a reflection of it.
You are still maintaining an identity with an expanded state of delusion.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 21, 2007, 06:35 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 21, 2007, 06:36 PM) *

The nervous system is sufficiently altered to stress it, creating a delusional experience.


Where is your proof that the nervous system becomes stressed. How do you know it cannot become aware of itself. An OBE is not a delusional experience. You are delusional for thinking this.


QUOTE
What happens after that is a result of the conditioning of the nervous system by the hallucinogen.
You have some memories and now you want to convince the world you have achieved an egoless state of mind by referring to your past, a past memory that you called the now experience.


Why is this "conditioning of the nervous system" a delusional one? Could this not be a process of the nervous system becoming aware of itself and evolving? These are all your opinions, you have not shown me any proof of your claims.


QUOTE
You say it gives you a second set of eyes but what could the eye(s) possibly achieve in the containment of the energy that is everything when all you are left with is a memory of an experience.


It is not just a memory of an experience I am left with. Realization and self-awareness can be brought back with me.


QUOTE
Consciousness cannot be experienced but you can experience a reflection of it.


Sounds like another one of your opinions. We are always experiencing consciousness, we are consciousness. It is the mind/ego that cuts you off from this realization. When the mind is dissolved one enters unity consciousness, becoming of consciousness. Of course one who has not transcended ego consciousness would not understand this. This is why you believe one can only experience a reflection of consciousness. The reflection is ego.


QUOTE
You are still maintaining an identity with an expanded state of delusion.


These experiences have nothing to do with enlightenment. What I experienced was not delusion, it was real. All experience is real. I do not claim I am enlightened because of these experience, I perceive them as they are, experiences. I have memories, realizations, and interpretations of them. Those are what they are. This is not attachment if I am aware of this.

Posted by: Enki Sep 21, 2007, 07:26 PM

QUOTE(Orbz @ Sep 21, 2007, 05:10 PM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 22, 2007, 02:20 AM) *

The danger springs from parallel ideas which generate and percolate like fire
spreads through barren grass.


I like that, well put.


Thank you.

There are many historical examples we should pay attention to, indeed.

Posted by: Orbz Sep 21, 2007, 10:43 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 22, 2007, 10:35 AM) *

An OBE is not a delusional experience. You are delusional for thinking this.

How do you mean?
An OBE is not a delusion as much as an hallucination is not a delusion? or,
An OBE is a realistic representation of reality? (As much as any other conscious experience?)

Posted by: Joesus Sep 21, 2007, 10:55 PM

QUOTE
Where is your proof that the nervous system becomes stressed. How do you know it cannot become aware of itself. An OBE is not a delusional experience. You are delusional for thinking this.

An OBE is an experience this is true, but it is subject to the current state of consciousness of the observer.
If one is sufficiently free from stress in the nervous system the awareness will open itself to more than it is used to experiencing and as such any experience greater than the norm can be dramatic.
In some cases such as yours the tendency to label it as higher states of consciousness is followed by the notion or identification of having gone beyond ego when one has only had a dramatic experience beyond what the nervous system and mind is normally able to comprehend, or is used to.
Often the observer takes pride in making comparisons to others experiences and enlightened texts such as you have and then waving these words in the face of others to validate their reasoning.
In other words creating a system of measure that meets their personal needs.
QUOTE
Why is this "conditioning of the nervous system" a delusional one? Could this not be a process of the nervous system becoming aware of itself and evolving? These are all your opinions, you have not shown me any proof of your claims.

Have you physically measured your brainwave patterns, respiration, blood pressure and skin temperature during the drug induced state and compared it to the patterns measured while not on drugs to see where your body and mind are at in these different experiences?
Have you measured your brainwave patterns against others who achieve what they call transcendental states of consciousness to validate your claims and provide proof beyond the personal claim you make?
Have you spent any time tracking these types of physical responses in yourself and in others?
Do you know of anyone who has measured the brainwave patterns, surface temp of the skin, respiration and blood pressure while under the influence of entheogens and compared them to the brain wave patters of say a yogi or accomplished master in meditation so to establish the physical reference point of breakthru?
Where is your proof?
QUOTE

It is not just a memory of an experience I am left with. Realization and self-awareness can be brought back with me.

Someday you may not find the need to go someplace to bring it back with you, when you find it right here right now and always now. And it will probably be something different than something that could be left behind in the first place.

QUOTE

Sounds like another one of your opinions. We are always experiencing consciousness, we are consciousness.

Sure that is why it is somewhere else, behind a veil and only experienced if one has broken thru as you so insist.
QUOTE
It is the mind/ego that cuts you off from this realization.

Yes that is what leaves it behind and what keeps you from experiencing it all the time contrary to your previous statement.
QUOTE
When the mind is dissolved one enters unity consciousness, becoming of consciousness. Of course one who has not transcended ego consciousness would not understand this. This is why you believe one can only experience a reflection of consciousness. The reflection is ego.

The absolute is not an experience, cannot be contained in an experience in fact it is beyond any experience. One can experience the potential of it in the reflection that is experience.

QUOTE


These experiences have nothing to do with enlightenment.
or Self realization

QUOTE
What I experienced was not delusion, it was real. All experience is real.
And everyone experiences differently which is why experience is not established as the constant or as consciousness. It is the observer of experience that is closer to the self tho that is just a reflection of consciousness and not consciousness itself.

QUOTE
I have memories, realizations, and interpretations of them.

Of course, everyone does, and you want to label yours as transcendental.

QUOTE
Those are what they are. This is not attachment if I am aware of this.

No the experiences themselves are not attachment one can have an experience without being attached but you measure yours, compare yours, defend yours, label them and take pride in them.
I'd say you are a tad bit attached.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 22, 2007, 09:22 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 21, 2007, 11:55 PM) *

In some cases such as yours the tendency to label it as higher states of consciousness is followed by the notion or identification of having gone beyond ego when one has only had a dramatic experience beyond what the nervous system and mind is normally able to comprehend, or is used to.


I guess we have different definitions of what ego is. I have transcended my ego, or have dissolved it to an extent where my awareness was separate from it. I was not perceiving through my conditioning, rather pure unfiltered awareness.


QUOTE
Often the observer takes pride in making comparisons to others experiences and enlightened texts such as you have and then waving these words in the face of others to validate their reasoning.


The only reasoning I am trying to validate is how I have transcended ego consciousness via the use of meditation and entheogens. You deny this, this is why I am here.


QUOTE
Have you physically measured your brainwave patterns, respiration, blood pressure and skin temperature during the drug induced state and compared it to the patterns measured while not on drugs to see where your body and mind are at in these different experiences?
Have you measured your brainwave patterns against others who achieve what they call transcendental states of consciousness to validate your claims and provide proof beyond the personal claim you make?
Have you spent any time tracking these types of physical responses in yourself and in others?
Do you know of anyone who has measured the brainwave patterns, surface temp of the skin, respiration and blood pressure while under the influence of entheogens and compared them to the brain wave patters of say a yogi or accomplished master in meditation so to establish the physical reference point of breakthru?
Where is your proof?


All I know is that I have experienced consciousness expansion, OBE, NDE, ego dissolution, astral travel. I don't need proof laugh.gif The truth is in the experience.


QUOTE
Someday you may not find the need to go someplace to bring it back with you, when you find it right here right now and always now.


Who said I needed it? You don't know what I need. It is about exploration of the self and consciousness. I am naturally attracted to myself. I am one with this earth. I don't need to be attracted to consciousness, it is my nature to be.


QUOTE
It is the observer of experience that is closer to the self tho that is just a reflection of consciousness and not consciousness itself.


Awareness is consciousness that has become conscious of itself. Awareness is consciousness. Pure awareness is consciousness and I am is that. The awareness is consciousness looking back on itself.

A reflection of consciousness is only an image. That image is ego.

You are mistaking this reflection for vrittis.

In this chapter Kutastha or pure consciousness, which is eternal and immutable, is being distinguished from the reflection of pure consciousness in the modifications of the mind (vrittis) with the help of an example. When the rays of the sun fall on a wall, the wall is illumined and looks bright, though by itself the wall has no brightness. When the rays of the sun fall on a mirror and the rays reflected from the mirror fall on the wall, the wall looks even brighter. Similarly, because of the presence of pure consciousness within, the physical body acquires sentiency. When the mind functions through any of the sense organs and becomes modified into the form of an external object, the pure consciousness becomes reflected in this modification (which is known as vritti). Then the sentiency of the body becomes even more manifest because the person sees external objects, hears external sounds, etc. Even when there are no mirrors to reflect the rays of the sun the wall on which the sun’s rays fall directly remains illumined. Similarly even when there are no vrittis of the mind, pure consciousness illumines the body and gives it sentiency. Even in the state of deep sleep, when the mind and the senses are dormant, pure consciousness illumines the body.

http://www.geocities.com/snsastri/panchadasi-chapter-8.html


The vrittis are continuously active in our mind. I am not talking about the conscious or the subconscious or the unconscious, because the intensity of a vritti is different at each level. Rather we are going to look at how the vrittis affect the whole mind. In order to harmonize, sublimate and eliminate the vrittis we need to follow a process, a sequence.

http://www.yogamag.net/archives/1996/5sep96/vrittis.shtml


QUOTE
No the experiences themselves are not attachment one can have an experience without being attached but you measure yours, compare yours, defend yours, label them and take pride in them.
I'd say you are a tad bit attached.


You are on the opposite side of the coin. You deny my experience. I seek to come to an agreement or an understanding. My intentions are not to measure, compare, or take pride in them. My intention is to harmonize.



Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 22, 2007, 09:26 AM

QUOTE(Orbz @ Sep 21, 2007, 11:43 PM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 22, 2007, 10:35 AM) *

An OBE is not a delusional experience. You are delusional for thinking this.

How do you mean?
An OBE is not a delusion as much as an hallucination is not a delusion? or,
An OBE is a realistic representation of reality? (As much as any other conscious experience?)


A delusion is a belief or false opinion. An OBE is an experience which is transcendental of thought and language. An interpretation of an OBE could be considered delusional, but I am not interpreting here.

A hallucination is what it is, a hallucination. The experience itself is not a delusion, rather it is what the mind wraps around it afterwards which makes it delusion. Realizing this allows one to transcend the need to interpret or squeeze the experience into language. It is what it is.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 22, 2007, 09:31 AM

Ok, Joesus obviously believes that you cannot experience unity, brahman, the absolute or even glimpse the reality the yogis are talking using entheogens.

Funny, considering the words background:

QUOTE
An entheogen, in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance (most often some plant matter with hallucinogenic effects) which occasions a spiritual or mystical experience. In a broader sense, the word "entheogen" refers to artificial as well as natural substances which induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional shamanic inebriants, even if used in a secular context.

The word entheogen is a neologism derived from the ancient Greek : ἔνθεος (entheos) and γενέσθαι (genesthe). Entheos literally means "god (theos) within", more freely translated "inspired". The Greeks used it as a term of praise for poets and other artists[citation needed]. Genesthe means "to generate". So an entheogen is "that which generates God (or godly inspiration) within a person".

This shows me that others have felt the same way. In fact the whole Timothy Leary thing and the 60's was ALL about this issue. So whether people like it or not, its not a crazy idea that God is really within the mushroom. smile.gif

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 22, 2007, 09:57 AM

Here is an interesting read -

http://egodeath.com/EntheogenTheoryOfReligion.htm

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 22, 2007, 10:01 AM

Recreational Ego Death: Dissolution

The classic text of Re-creational surrender or sacrifice of self is the Bardo Thodol, or Tibetan Book of the Dead. It is explicitly for the living who undertake the death-like regression into the unconscious, as well as the dying. Because of their orientation toward consciousness journeys The Psychedelic Experience and American Book of the Dead are useful translations or contemporizations of the transformational classic.

The realm of death is the twilight zone between consciousness and matter. Here psychoid pheomena manifest through the mingling of these modes. Here mind/matter duality ceases, creating enchantment, uncanny synchronicities, time warps, psychic experience, revelation of the mind and matter, the Nature MInd.

The moment of ego death is heralded by certain symptoms of transition. Resistance by the mind to this creative dissolution brings about physical symptoms which range from shaking and a sense of increasing pressure and anxiety, to paradoxical flashes of hot and cold, to extreme dizzyness and disorientation. As the classic psychedelic manual says, "The hard, dry, brittle husks of your ego are washing out; Washing out to the endless sea of Creation." (Leary, et al, 1964).

Distressing or disturbing symptoms symbolize the violence of the passage of consciousness from form to formlessness. Images of the body disintegrating or being blown to atoms are characteristic psychedelic experiences (fear of exploding=fear of expanding). Perhaps the very elements of our bodies "remember" their formation in the crucible of some supernova. There may be identification with merciless destruction, the Dance of Shiva, the raging elements of nature, a variety of forms of explosive discharge. Here are vision of fires, floods, raging storms, earthquakes, volcanoes, turbulent lakes of magma.

Consciousness "breaks up" into its elemental forms, manifesting as overwhelming imagery. This first phase of dissolution may be characterized by the futility of resistance, magnetic downward spirals, gravity wells, loss of morphological identity. We remain the state of dis-integration until we re-member our essential self, emodying the sounded healer.

Disintegration comes as the ego gives up its unified perspective to the multiple consciousness of the deep self. Fear makes it feel like fragmentation, but in truth there is nothing in that imagery that is not us. The death throes of the ego prepare it for rebirth, a new incarnation of the spirit.

Psychogenesis II: Chaosophy 2000

Posted by: lucid_dream Sep 22, 2007, 11:14 AM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Sep 22, 2007, 10:22 AM) *
All I know is that I have experienced consciousness expansion, OBE, NDE, ego dissolution, astral travel. I don't need proof laugh.gif The truth is in the experience.


it's good to experience these varied states of consciousness, as they open our eyes to the infinite potential of consciousness, always bearing in mind that they are all creations of the myriad neurons in your brain, and that OBE, NDE, and astral travel are no exception. It's quite amazing that our brains, a "material" substance, can give rise to such experiences, or to any experiences for that matter, and underscores the necessity, which arguably amounts to a moral imperative for each and every one of us, for understanding these brain processes.

It astounds me that people can devote their lives to politics or economics and remain completely incognizant of the divine mystery within their heads, never experiencing the curiosity or feeling morally compelled to examine and plumb its depths.

On an unrelated note, FP, "The Entheogen Theory of Religion and Ego Death" is an interesting idea but has been around for a long time. Ultimately, it fails to convincingly demonstrate that entheogens played any role in the formation of major religions, and thus amounts to pure speculation and fantasy, on a par with the idea of extraterrestrial involvement with the Great Pyramids.


Posted by: Joesus Sep 22, 2007, 11:26 AM

QUOTE
I have transcended my ego, or have dissolved it to an extent where my awareness was separate from it. I was not perceiving through my conditioning, rather pure unfiltered awareness.

Pure and unfiltered as in there is no greater experience of yourself and consciousness to be had.
QUOTE
The only reasoning I am trying to validate is how I have transcended ego consciousness via the use of meditation and entheogens. You deny this, this is why I am here.

Part of the intention to harmonize? To change me and my opinion, to rearrange the exterior so that the inner matches the outer?
And you said you transcended the ego...
QUOTE
All I know is that I have experienced consciousness expansion, OBE, NDE, ego dissolution, astral travel. I don't need proof.The truth is in the experience.
So you ask me for proof and deny my experience.
Part of the harmonizing process? The my experience is greater than your experience so I will choose to make my experience the universal foundation for Truth of reality kinda thinking... dry.gif
QUOTE
Who said I needed it? You don't know what I need. It is about exploration of the self and consciousness. I am naturally attracted to myself. I am one with this earth. I don't need to be attracted to consciousness, it is my nature to be.

So in favor of the attraction to yourself you don't need to bring the transcendental self forward into your experience of self, so you leave it behind. Thus labeling the self dual in nature rather than transcendental.
I see why you insist the absolute can be contained in experience and that experience is not a reflection of self but THE SELF.

QUOTE

Awareness is consciousness that has become conscious of itself. Awareness is consciousness. Pure awareness is consciousness and I am is that. The awareness is consciousness looking back on itself.

You mean like looking back on yourself in the identity of having transcended the ego and having broken through and being self realized? Looking back on yourself and seeing yourself separate from those who disagree with you creating the intent to harmonize the separation and experience of disagreement? The experience of consciousness disagreeing with itself as the Self?

QUOTE

You are on the opposite side of the coin. You deny my experience. I seek to come to an agreement or an understanding. My intentions are not to measure, compare, or take pride in them. My intention is to harmonize.

Then see me differently and in a different light. Rather than being opposite, see me in union with you and transcend both the idea of my words and any interpretation of them, and then your ideas and interpretations, rise above your beliefs in your past experiences to experience something different.

QUOTE

This shows me that others have felt the same way. In fact the whole Timothy Leary thing and the 60's was ALL about this issue. So whether people like it or not, its not a crazy idea that God is really within the mushroom.

No its not a crazy idea any more than God is a white haired and bearded man in the sky. If enough people establish a need and a resonant belief, it becomes believable to the mind.
No one thought it was crazy that the Earth was Flat, but then we know better now that we have risen above such foolish notions.

People over the centuries know that there is more to who we are and what we experience, and as soon as the mind wanders into unknown territory which inspires them to dive deeper, images and labels of God appear.
The god-like experience can be attached to anything that is projected outward from the norm.

The thing is if you have enough familiarity with something that you have labeled God and something greater happens to you in your awareness and experience then the God-like fantasy falls away to be replaced by the newer, bigger and better God like experience. Or you have a difference in opinion about what God looks like and start another church at the other end of the block, like so many Baptist Churches in the South.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 22, 2007, 12:15 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2007, 12:26 PM) *

Pure and unfiltered as in there is no greater experience of yourself and consciousness to be had.


There's always more to experience, I never claimed there wasn't. What I meant was the filters of the mind dissolve into the present experience.


QUOTE
Part of the intention to harmonize? To change me and my opinion, to rearrange the exterior so that the inner matches the outer?


There is only misunderstanding that is creating duality.


QUOTE
The experience of consciousness disagreeing with itself as the Self?


You only disagree because you misunderstand. Everything you are talking about here has nothing to do with what I am talking about.


QUOTE
Then see me differently and in a different light. Rather than being opposite, see me in union with you and transcend both the idea of my words and any interpretation of them, and then your ideas and interpretations, rise above your beliefs in your past experiences to experience something different.


And believe that my OBE's were delusion? I can't agree with your beliefs.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 22, 2007, 12:27 PM

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 22, 2007, 12:14 PM) *

On an unrelated note, FP, "The Entheogen Theory of Religion and Ego Death" is an interesting idea but has been around for a long time. Ultimately, it fails to convincingly demonstrate that entheogens played any role in the formation of major religions, and thus amounts to pure speculation and fantasy, on a par with the idea of extraterrestrial involvement with the Great Pyramids.


Yes I agree that is not concrete evidence, but what was more interesting was the explanations of ego death, or dissolution.

QUOTE
The Dissociative Cognitive State

Mental constructs are dynamic association matrixes of mental representations, held together by some degree of binding intensity. Ordinary-state cognition is settled and immersed in standard ruts of patterns and mental associations, such as trying to improvise on a musical instrument but ending up playing repeated patterns. Having a recognizable personality relies on such habitual patterns of dynamic mental construct associations, which are somewhat dynamic, but are restricted to a characteristic mode. Behind their mask of habit-based, pseudo-separate agency, everyone is Dionysus (that is, the ultimate control-source).

Entheogens cause their various phenomenological effects by loosening cognitive associations, which causes mental construct processing to be revealed as artificial representationalism and projection.

Posted by: trojan_libido Sep 22, 2007, 01:23 PM

I've read the Tibetan Bardos from the perspective of ego-death and it is very plausible given the reasoning behind meditation and the original Buddhas experience.

Peoples historical belief in the world being flat is an illusion in itself. The ancients calculated precession, there are megalithic stones in huge rows in france that can be used to calculate the circumference of the earth. These things go against the misconception that we used to think the world is flat. Also the dating has been moved around several times about who said this and when they said it.

Consciousness is amazing, theres a huge assortment of states you can be left in through the maze that is the body. I don't discount anyones experience because they only give you a different angle on the mystery of life. Nothing can be absolute. If you can create a computer advanced enough to think, then ask it what it thinks about its thinking, the law of comedy should make it explode.

I also don't believe that entheogens were responsible for religion, this doesnt make sense at all. I think Dawkins is on the right track in saying its a bi-product of consciousness, I believe its a primary function. We're built to believe, its a kind of observational feedback loop that builds our minds to suit environment. Entheogens came after religion, they have came back in cycles, been revered and then feared over and over.

You would think by now we should all realise that you can't hide issues like this away, although there can be no resolution from arguing either way about entheogens and religion.

But personally, I still believe that you can get another glimpse of God/Consciousness from using entheogens, although I still don't believe I've come close to a break-through moment. This takes more bravery than I have.

Posted by: Joesus Sep 22, 2007, 03:44 PM

QUOTE

But personally, I still believe that you can get another glimpse of God/Consciousness from using entheogens, although I still don't believe I've come close to a break-through moment. This takes more bravery than I have.

Belief is the impetus to draw the experiences toward you but then the refinement of what creation is and how you relate to it often gets diluted by the ideas of God and what God looks like.
QUOTE
What I meant was the filters of the mind dissolve into the present experience.

The present experience being on par with the present compatibility of understanding and ones relationship with the Universe. Generally speaking it is impossible to take ones perception of reality beyond the level of comprehension.
QUOTE
There is only misunderstanding that is creating duality.

No it is only misunderstanding that distorts duality. Duality is the process of experience.
Because the absolute consciousness is beyond experience it must be brought out of its formless state and into form through the process of duality.
QUOTE

Everything you are talking about here has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

That would be true to your present experience.
QUOTE

And believe that my OBE's were delusion? I can't agree with your beliefs.

Unity has nothing to do with like mindedness or beliefs.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Sep 22, 2007, 05:02 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2007, 04:44 PM) *

Generally speaking it is impossible to take ones perception of reality beyond the level of comprehension.


Not in my experience biggrin.gif

Posted by: Joesus Sep 22, 2007, 06:37 PM

No of course not.

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 01, 2007, 12:22 AM

Finally found an image of those Maya mushrooms. These were obviously difficult to create, and just like the Egyptians did with their art, they revered these objects as powerful religious artifacts.


Interesting that a whole culture sprang up that used these entheogens and saw the movement of their deities as serpent like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Serpent

QUOTE
There was a Vision Serpent named Och-Kan, lord of Kalak'mul.

One of the most common rituals associated with the Vision serpent involved invoking ancestral sprits. Especially during coronation rites, the kings would contact the spirits for guidance and blessings. It is the Vision Serpent who provides the medium for contacting these deities.

It is believed that Lord Pakal's sarcophagus lid, which was located at Palenque, is probably “the single most comprehensive image which relates the Vision Serpent to Maya religion”. It depicts the death of Pakal and his descent into the Underworld. “The bicepalous serpent bar is placed horizontally on the World Tree and is the conduit for this transition. In the same way that the Vision Serpent represents a conduit between the physical world and the spirit realm of the ancestors, this bicephalous serpent bar represents a conduit between the realm of the living and the realm of the dead”
This is maybe where the shamanic explanation of the caduceus comes from. The thing that is obvious is that the Mayans believed that they could enter the spirit world, using entheogens, and be guided by their serpent-like Gods. I actually believe they saw serpents because of the physical effects of the mushrooms. The visual distortions are often a breathing, ever-growing, serpent-like movements and often extreme mental focus or complete mystical experience. My own experience and the evidence of this situation with the Maya are compelling, don't you think?

What I'd like to discuss is whether this serpent symbolism is widespread because of a shared idea and subsequent diffusion into societies; whether the symbol is chosen because it represents the simplest form that nature takes - the waveform; or is it something like an archetype of consciousness due to our biology. The serpent often crops up in religious iconography, and not in a small way either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28symbolism%29

I can detail the different examples of this imagery if required, but a quick list off the top of my head is:
Egyptians, Maya, Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans, Hindus, Buddhists, Asias, Christianity (Eden, Moses Staff), Norse mythology and many more. Obviously some examples are more like the Maya than others, but the quantity and placement in religion is very interesting, isn't it?

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 01, 2007, 10:18 AM

Excellent post!

Have you ever thought the serpents could resemble the Kundalini serpent rising up the back of the spine? Hundreds, if not thousands of people have experienced the Kundalini serpent rising up their spine from the navel. And it is such a powerful explosion of energy that this dramatically changes the course of their life. They gain access to higher states of consciousness, astral travel, etc.

Here is some more info -

http://www.elcollie.com/st/st.html

http://www.elcollie.com/st/letters.html

Forums -

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewforum.php?f=10

There are many people who have experienced this, as well with the help of entheogens.

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 01, 2007, 11:15 PM

I've not experienced it, but its another link to entheogens, meditation and the conciousness. It does seem that the serpent imagery is intertwined with consciousness for similar reasons in whatever form it takes. The churning of the milky ocean is a beautiful and poetic version of the creation of life, and this is achieved by the angels and devils working together (bad translation really but it sufices) using the world serpent as a pulling rope to rotate the world in the sky - facilitating life. I believe there are links between the temples of Angkor Wat, the pentagram and the Fibonacci sequence. This link is extremely poetic and is very important to my beliefs.

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 02, 2007, 02:28 AM

I've not experienced it, but its another link to entheogens, meditation and the conciousness. It does seem that the serpent imagery is intertwined with consciousness for similar reasons in whatever form it takes. The churning of the milky ocean is a beautiful and poetic version of the creation of life, and this is achieved by the angels and devils working together (bad translation really but it sufices) using the world serpent as a pulling rope to rotate the world in the sky - facilitating life. I believe there are links between the temples of Angkor Wat, the pentagram and the Fibonacci sequence. This link is extremely poetic and is very important to my beliefs.

From one of those links above, an extract of someones letter of their "kundalini" awakening.

QUOTE
It was during a 2-3 month period of intense emotional purging through the use of mostly hallucinogens and nitrous oxide that this intelligence was able to completely 'enter' my neurological/nervous system. My theory on this is that these compounds allowed me to completely open up psychically to recieve these energies. During 2-3 particular trips I experienced most of the more 'hard core kundalini awakening effects' such as energetic pulses going up and down my spine, strange pressures in all parts of my brain, feeling as if if I was breathing through various parts of my brain which corresponded to chakra locations, rapid body heat changes, visions of such complexity that I knew that my mind wasnt the one making them, times where one or the other of my nostrils would close open, and I would be breathing out of only one, then it would suddenly and quickly switch...I also experienced ecstatic feelings of love and bliss in many different forms, which were far greater than any kind of drug experience I could possibly have had. I am quite sure that I also had various hypertensive effects - rapid blood pressure changes, lots of scary effects that made me think that I was going to faint or have a seizure or something. It was after a particular intense use of mushrooms that it became obvious that this presence no longer needed me to use the hallucinogens to get into contact with it. I was now constantly in dialogue with it and it was continously working in my body 24 hours a day - even influencing my dreams.


I'm not so sure on this validity of this experience to be honest. The range of symptoms seems so large that any number of problems could cause a lof of them. The nostril thing is just way off, because I'm pretty sure that the nose works in exactly this way. The depression then manic exhiliration could be mild form of bi-polar disorder, and this person even goes on to say he could hear a voice at one point. Having said this I have experienced non-drug induced hallucinations and an internal vibration on several occasions, and its very interesting that DMT breakthrough gives this same tearing noise. I've also experienced a zapping noise whilst lying in bed that is so loud and fast that I actually become afraid that I'm going to passout/die/explode. So I'm definately not dismissing anything too readily, only I wish someone could sort the wheat from the chaff on these issues. Its fairly impossible since its all a subjective experience. The guy goes on to talk about how he did a little faith healing, which again I feel brings the whole validity of the report into question.

Its this natural vibration and altered states which fascinates me. Why does breaking through into altered states cause this tearing effect? Has anyone on this board experienced it during meditation? Is there something in the brain that could cause mystical or hallucinatory experiences, and be near the place for processing auditory signals?

Sometimes it feels like your sailing the ethereal cosmic ocean in a ship thats visible only to you, trying to explain how the boat functions, and the currents move, to other people who have invisible boats on this crazy ocean.

Posted by: Enki Oct 02, 2007, 07:14 AM

Thank you for the Maya mushrooms Trojan.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 02, 2007, 09:04 AM

QUOTE
Its this natural vibration and altered states which fascinates me. Why does breaking through into altered states cause this tearing effect? Has anyone on this board experienced it during meditation? Is there something in the brain that could cause mystical or hallucinatory experiences, and be near the place for processing auditory signals?

In the natural process of the mind and body as it settles into deep rest and stillness I know of no one who practices the particular type of meditation I do who experiences what you describe.
However Just about everyone I have tripped with could tell you about what you describe.

There is a Bindhu point where the absolute and the manifest merge, and it is like a living membrane that seems to open and close similar to the pulse of a heartbeat, only not at the same speed as a human heart. The vibration is much higher. Actually it doesn't open and close so much as it goes in and out of phase so fast that it literally connects manifest reality and the unmanifest by being in both at the same time.
When someone trips the mind is forced beyond its current state of awareness and what is created is a tear in what it has created around it in its layers of belief.
Similar to the Bindhu point of the unmanifest and the manifest is the opening and closing layer that exists between the Self/God and individuality/ego. When someone trips they force their way out of this bubble and bounce around in an experience that is not unlike taking someones physical eyes from them. In sudden blindness the conditioned mind tries to capture what it knows in the darkness. This creates fantastic anomalies that are proportionate to ones emotional state and level of consciousness at the time they take their drug.
The tear creates scarring which is like a thick hide that inhibits the mind from achieving the same experience again without taking more drugs to tear it again.
Not everyone hears or experiences the tearing effect, but everyone I know has at one point or another. Usually it's ignored for the more fantastic illusions of colors and hallucinations that have more of an entertainment value.
This description is one that seems relevant to close observation of the drug and its effects. Most who trip recreationally, pound their nervous system with more of a coctail of drugs and alchohol in a mixed environment that doesn't lend one to close observation of the effects of the drug but more of the drugs and the party environment.

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 02, 2007, 09:26 AM

QUOTE
When someone trips the mind is forced beyond its current state of awareness and what is created is a tear in what it has created around it in its layers of belief.
I'm not really looking for a esoteric answer here, although theres plenty of those about, but more of a biological explanation. The tearing effect I've only had spontaneously and without the use of drugs. Twice as a child when my language centre in the brain was over stimulated, and the zapping noise was coming and going when i was sober. I have read about the tearing noise as you blast into the DMT dimensions, but that is not unexpected given that DMT is produced in the body and so is indirectly related.
QUOTE
The tear creates scarring which is like a thick hide that inhibits the mind from achieving the same experience again without taking more drugs to tear it again.
Is this a guess at what happens, or do you have evidence?
QUOTE
However Just about everyone I have tripped with could tell you about what you describe.
This assumption is clearly from my stance on hallucinogens, however this phenomenon did not happen anywhere near my drug taking years, and I believe it has something to do with spontaneous visions and DMT. This is the single most significant part of my life and made me go on to research a lot of brain related phenomenon. The hallucinogens came after the experience, so I think what you said is biased somewhat by my stance on those substances. I've also never experienced this tearing through any entheogen, and neither has anyone i know. A feeling of vibration maybe, which is more common.

Please Joesus, discuss some of the points raised about the Maya and their entheogenic use and religious ideas, or why the use of the serpent symbol is so prevalent. Do you not find it interesting at least?

Posted by: Joesus Oct 02, 2007, 09:35 AM

QUOTE
I'm not really looking for a esoteric answer here, although theres plenty of those about, but more of a biological explanation.

Is not the esoteric you responsible for the biological you, or do you believe that the biological you, creates the esoteric and dissolves upon physical death. If you believe in the latter then all hallucinations are simply manifestations of biological imbalances, and that would be perception of physical reality as well. Which might tend to create a need to create a biological standard so that everyone would and will perceive reality the same.
Biological Religion anyone?
QUOTE

Is this a guess at what happens, or do you have evidence.

Physical evidence of the non physical?
I guess that is what is ever on trial here isn't it.
QUOTE
I think what you said is biased somewhat by my stance on those substances.

Of course you do.
C'est la vie

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 02, 2007, 09:49 AM

Lol, you made a claim, I made an observation.

QUOTE
Physical evidence of the non physical?
I guess that is what is ever on trial here isn't it.
You sir, are a troll who doesn't even address the points raised. C'est la vie...really grown up.

BTW, is your name Gary?

Posted by: Joesus Oct 02, 2007, 10:08 AM

QUOTE
you made a claim, I made an observation.

Yes I did.
QUOTE
is your name Gary?

If it was?

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 02, 2007, 10:21 AM

Thats the name on the poker avatar thats using the same image as your avatar. No reason or derogatory comment.

Posted by: Enki Oct 02, 2007, 11:03 AM

What?! Joesus is Gary?! Whau!

Mr. Harry Potter? Or Old Harry?

Btw, I used Se La Vi phrase in other topic prior entering and reading this topic few minutes ago. So do we established some sort of Consciousness Singularity?

I knew that it is working. tongue.gif

Posted by: Enki Oct 02, 2007, 11:08 AM

Btw Trojan, how did you locate his another avatar?
Coincidental search?

Posted by: Enki Oct 02, 2007, 11:27 AM

/Some silly ideas/
Truly speaking, I think (I just suppose) that Joesus uses such a username that makes absolutely impossible to Ping him in planetary scale (the noise level is very high and creates firewall), though at the same time his avatar is not a common one, so it can be considered as a nice Pinging key. But at the same time, as it is rare one it may lead to a closed door (due to absence of a third port or presence of a blocking word associated with the avatar).
In addition to that, his linguistic constructions are such that it is not possible (at least at first glance it looks like impossible) to fish out a knot which later on can be used as an access key.
So I guess that Mr. Joesus from cybernetic point of view is well protected from unauthorized Pinging. At the same time usage of such a username may create some difficulties for Joesus himself as he will tune the noise I have mentioned above and one needs to develop a great will power to contain that flow.
/End of some silly ideas/

tongue.gif

Posted by: Enki Oct 02, 2007, 11:29 AM

Dear Children, while reading this topic remember that we sometimes are joking, do not take us serious.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 02, 2007, 01:15 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 02, 2007, 03:28 AM) *

I've not experienced it, but its another link to entheogens, meditation and the conciousness. It does seem that the serpent imagery is intertwined with consciousness for similar reasons in whatever form it takes. The churning of the milky ocean is a beautiful and poetic version of the creation of life, and this is achieved by the angels and devils working together (bad translation really but it sufices) using the world serpent as a pulling rope to rotate the world in the sky - facilitating life. I believe there are links between the temples of Angkor Wat, the pentagram and the Fibonacci sequence. This link is extremely poetic and is very important to my beliefs.


Yes these so called symptoms could be symptoms of something other than kundalini awakening. The thing that interests me though is how many people have had the distinct feeling of snakes (kundalini energy) bursting and twirling up their spinal cord. I do not doubt the intensity of their experiences as I often times feel prana rising up my spine and releasing out my heart and higher centers. A full kundalini awakening is supposed to be intense awakening as opposed to having prana flow, which is known to be a a subtle version of this energy. Just my thoughts.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 02, 2007, 02:59 PM

QUOTE
A full kundalini awakening is supposed to be intense awakening as opposed to having prana flow, which is known to be a a subtle version of this energy. Just my thoughts.

I had a thought once..
But seriously Pranic energy flowing through the nadis and their corresponding chakras is Kundalini. It is when one experiences a jolt of prana through clogged circuitry that one experiences an intense feeling.
When all chakras spin clear and without color they are unclogged. Allowing energy to flow through the Ida Pingala and Shushmna. The Caduceus is symbolic of this, in that the two snakes represent the Ida and Pingala, the staff the Shushmna, and the open wings are representative of full human consciousness when one has removed all of the stress in the central nervous system opening the petals of each chakra allowing energy to rise unrestricted through all of the nadis opening the 108 petals of the crown Chakra.

Many try to control prana but the very thought restricts prana from moving within the subtle body and into the emotional and physical. It is our active attention on the gross levels of sensory experience that create the system clogs in the first place.
There is nothing jolting or intense about full human consciousness unless one forces the nervous system to do something it isn't prepared for. Kind like running 100 volts through wire that is the size of human hair or an arc of current through a break in a circuit to ground.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 02, 2007, 04:09 PM

What is the difference between prana and kundalini? What is the difference between qi (or chi) and kundalini?

First let us try to relate to concepts from the same tradition - prana and kundalini. Prana has been translated as the ``vital breath'' and ``bio-energetic motility''; it is associated with maintaining the functioning of the mind and body. Kundalini, in its form as prana-kundalini, is identical to prana ; however, Kundalini also has a manifestations as consciousness and a as a unifying cosmic energy. One could ascribe these same aspects to prana as well so past a certain point these become distinctions without differences.



From the subjective standpoint of an individual actually experiencing the awakening of kundalini I have found three completely different opinions:

The first opinion is that a pranic awakening is only a prelude to a full kundalini awakening. Tibetan yogins that I have encountered consider the activation of prana (Tibetan: rlung) as merely a prerequisite for the activation of kundalini (Tibetan: gTummo). What's attractive about this viewpoint is that it explains the difference between the experience of simply having pleasant sensations in the spine and the much more powerful experience of having a ``freight-train''-like full kundalini experience.

The second opinion, espoused by Swami Shivom Tirth for example, is that prana and kundalini are absolutely equivalent and that it is not meaningful in any way to describe a difference between kundalini rising and prana rising. When posed with question as to how to distinguish between pleasant sensations that show some pranic-activity in the spine and the much more powerful experience Swami Shivom Tirth said that the difference is not in the nature of the activity but in the consciousness that observes it. If the consciousness that experiences the pranic activity is seated within the spine (or more correctly, the central channel, known as the sushumna), then the experience is felt much more powerfully.

The third opinion, espoused by the modern hatha yogin, Desikaran, is that pranic awakening is the true experience to be aimed for and kundalini is actually an obstruction. Desikaran sees the kundalini as a block in the central channel and thus the kundalini must be ``killed'' to make way for the prana. This is the most unusual view of the three.

Posted by: Enki Oct 02, 2007, 05:11 PM

I just hope that one day when you will realize what those snakes on your spinal cord truly are you will not turn white of fear.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 02, 2007, 05:24 PM

I don't think you can really know it until you have experienced, and that goes for both of us tongue.gif

All we can do now is speculate the possibilities.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 02, 2007, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Oct 03, 2007, 01:24 AM) *

I don't think you can really know it until you have experienced, and that goes for both of us tongue.gif

All we can do now is speculate the possibilities.
How will you experience the infinite if it is beyond experience?

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 02, 2007, 11:31 PM

Pointless response Joesus. He means that he hopes to experience the same level of union as the people who envisaged the chakra system. The ancient practitioners that felt they had experienced unity, would you go into their sacred places and say that to their face, or would you have a little more respect for their experience.

@Enki: I play poker and noticed Joesus avatar in use on a player there.

"Where did you get it from?" and the smart arse replied "internet."
"I knew that, I didnt think forced penguins to annoy a polar bear"
"I did"
He was a cocky and cheeky sod, and I laughed and poked fun whenever he lost money until he dropped out the competition on TILT. I'm sure this wasn't our Joesus though, was it?

Posted by: Joesus Oct 02, 2007, 11:57 PM

QUOTE
Pointless response Joesus. He means that he hopes to experience the same level of union as the people who envisaged the chakra system. The ancient practitioners that felt they had experienced unity, would you go into their sacred places and say that to their face, or would you have a little more respect for their experience.

Consciousness recognizes consciousness. As such if someone was putting on fairy wings and getting ready to leap off of a tall building thinking they would fly, I might say something.
But people jump anyway.

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 03, 2007, 01:00 AM

I have some ideas which may seem strange to some, however I still find your posts poluting to the discussions at hand. What are you on about, speak in less esoteric terms and I may give you more respect.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 03, 2007, 08:44 AM

If i have to be manipulated to earn your respect I would lose myself, and respect would be relative to what others would think of me.
What exactly is it that you don't understand?

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 03, 2007, 10:14 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Oct 03, 2007, 09:44 AM) *

If i have to be manipulated to earn your respect I would lose myself, and respect would be relative to what others would think of me.
What exactly is it that you don't understand?


I don't understand how somebody who talks so much about spirituality can conceptualize and analyze so much.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 03, 2007, 10:26 AM

QUOTE

I don't understand how somebody who talks so much about spirituality can conceptualize and analyze so much.

You wouldn't if that is all you can grasp in your experience.

If thine eye be single....

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 03, 2007, 10:30 AM

Why grasp when I can observe?

Posted by: Joesus Oct 03, 2007, 10:33 AM

But if you do not understand you are not observing.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 03, 2007, 11:07 AM

Shallow ph34r.gif

Posted by: Joesus Oct 03, 2007, 12:51 PM

Now your just making excuses

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 03, 2007, 02:46 PM

Nahh, just more observations..

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 03, 2007, 03:04 PM

Can a moderator please come and tidy this thread up, most of it is junk. Thanks Joesus, another thread derailed.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 03, 2007, 03:11 PM

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Oct 03, 2007, 10:46 PM) *

Nahh, just more observations..

you mean judgments

Posted by: Rick Oct 03, 2007, 03:38 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 03, 2007, 04:04 PM) *

Can a moderator please come and tidy this thread up, most of it is junk. Thanks Joesus, another thread derailed.

I'm finding it a bit educational.

Posted by: Enki Oct 03, 2007, 04:58 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 02, 2007, 11:31 PM) *

@Enki: I play poker and noticed Joesus avatar in use on a player there.

"Where did you get it from?" and the smart arse replied "internet."
"I knew that, I didnt think forced penguins to annoy a polar bear"
"I did"
He was a cocky and cheeky sod, and I laughed and poked fun whenever he lost money until he dropped out the competition on TILT. I'm sure this wasn't our Joesus though, was it?


I see. Funny coincidence. Things attract things.

Posted by: Enki Oct 03, 2007, 05:13 PM

QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 03, 2007, 03:38 PM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 03, 2007, 04:04 PM) *

Can a moderator please come and tidy this thread up, most of it is junk. Thanks Joesus, another thread derailed.

I'm finding it a bit educational.


Educational?! Really. Interesting.
And what do you learn Rick?

In this case I do really hope that someone will make an attempt to invite Hey Hey back to forum, because he wanted to make cleanup of his writings and was offended of not being permitted to clean his writings.

To Joesus:

Stop this please. I do politely request you to respect opinion of the other people.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 03, 2007, 06:16 PM

QUOTE

In this case I do really hope that someone will make an attempt to invite Hey Hey back to forum, because he wanted to make cleanup of his writings and was offended of not being permitted to clean his writings.

No, he was offended because his opinions that led him to react emotionally, and delete posts that were written in response to his sarcasm were not shared by another moderator. He left in an emotional huff.

QUOTE

To Joesus:

Stop this please. I do politely request you to respect opinion of the other people.

If there is a more than occasional disagreement with what is taking place within the workings of a free forum then I would assume there would be a need for a moderator to make requests or state certain rules of engagement.

In a case where one or two find that their expectations aren't being met then I would suspect that disagreement is normal.
To say I Fucked this Topic up would be an opinion I suppose in the idea that when someone starts a topic that it should go or stay specifically within boundaries that one expects them to.
Personally I think when an open forum exists to express ones ideas about a topic that if there is disagreement then it would be normal to present the other side of opinion such as the opinion of disagreement and any language that would resemble the other opinion.
It would seem what irritates some here is when disagreement or language that would continue to express information or opinion goes beyond the stage where certain parties have lost interest or feel threatened.
I think wars have been started by the inability to stay neutral or observe without being involved emotionally and intellectually.

Respect for others opinions is something I have, but I also respect the Truth, and as such find it profitable to weed out the illusions created around any beliefs. The more you dig up on a topic, what will stand alone is what cannot be broken down leaving opinions to the wayside. Opinions always change and so chipping away at the rough exterior of a rock to expose the artistic underneath would mean that opinions should be easily surrendered to the intellectual musings of others without the fear that their soul is threatened when someone matches their opinion with another that doesn't taste the same.

Obviously, not everyone feels the same about everything.
Since this topic is in the heading of expanding consciousness, then I would assume a mushroom cannot cover the scope of this idea, tho there may be some who insist it would.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 03, 2007, 06:30 PM

By the way, has anyone even bothered to click on the original link posted in the opening of this thread by Hey Hey?
http://sfgate.com/columnists/morford/
Check it out. The link as a topic starter is no longer in topic with this thread.

Those bastards!!! wub.gif

Ya gotta love life...

Posted by: trojan_libido Oct 03, 2007, 11:34 PM

Everytime someone posts new information into this or any other post, you come back with a "God is beyond experience, beyond the infinite" or some other tripe. You believe in a God, you are a fool sir. The experience of "God" is grounded in biology, we feel it at times because of chemicals in the brain and certain experiences. You just derail everything thats said. You are so far up your own arse its unreal, you barely add to any subject other than to sound off like your the new Krishna. You are not enlightened, you are not even well informed, you sir are a cock. I'm going to leave Brainmeta because for one, theres not enough activity on this forum, and two, I 'd have to put up with you.

I dont think anyone here

Please Rick, before I go, what exactly do you find interesting in Joesus "there is no spoon" chat? If he was so open minded, why wouldnt he give an opinion on anything other than everyone elses "Ego" and "illusion". Its completely F**KING ridiculous. Theres too much pompous behaviour on this board, and its no wonder its dead.

Goodbye to all.

Posted by: Enki Oct 04, 2007, 01:23 AM


Dear Trojan, please stay on forum. I promise I will regulate the matter over the Atlantic within 4-5 days. I give you the word of Enki that I will do that.

To Joesus,

Certain rules of engagement can be derived from humble opinions of frequent forum members.
Disagreement and causing linguistic irritation are quite different things.
The phrase “Fucked this Topic” was used to draw your SPECIAL attention to great level of irritation caused by your specific style of ‘philosophic’ spamming.
The parties should not be annoyed. Besides that we here know very well the true price and power of the language and how stylistic affects on the brain of a reader. We do not like when someone applies style bringing to Neuro Linguistic Dumping of brain activities of readers leading them astray from interesting topics.
Besides that the Truth is a matter of debate, and for people sharing Greco-Roman-British culture the debate has it own culture.
Now I understand why Hey Hey got so angry!

I want to warn you that sometimes the distance does not matter Joesus, if you do not understand the polite approach and colloquial funny remarks made by man to man, and your activities result in dumping of active members of the Brain Meta, then I will strongly recommend you to be very careful in your meditation practices in the coming future. It is a very serious warning to you on my behalf. Hope the coming experience will enrich your understanding of the Truth.

Take care,
Enki

Posted by: Enki Oct 04, 2007, 02:49 AM

From this discussions one can understand why Jesus Christ was crucified: he failed to express his ideas on proper Hebrew and Aramaic, irritated educated listeners and caused some significant hatred towards his personality among certain community sharing certain ontology, culture and values of intelligent theological, esoteric and metaphysical discourse. Later on his good ideas were converted into aggressive memes by uncouth Pitter and Paul and were spread worldwide resulting in destruction of the Roman Empire, Burning of Alexandrian Library and Inquisition of the Dark Middle Ages till the Hermetic wisdom of the God of Israel, Egypt and Sumer & Accad purified the ideas revealing elements of the true wisdom of the Jesus to the Enlightened Community, thus nearing the bright days when the doors of the Invisible College were opened and the Royal Society was created.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 04, 2007, 09:17 AM

Actually God cannot fail. People fail themselves, by their inability to comprehend reality beyond the personal opinions created by belief.
The educated listeners, or the Pharisees of the times could not stand to have their group control weakened and as a result manipulated the innocent through fear, and killed Jesus to remove the threat.
This seems to be the trend of the dark forces of the universe, to destroy anything that threatens their sovereignty.

Threats are really childish Enki. Tho you may believe in your magic and your ability to venerate righteousness I think you'll find that the end results are more than what you would have suspected.

Posted by: Flex Oct 04, 2007, 09:50 AM

Joesus your avatar is very fitting to your posts... I will leave it at that.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 04, 2007, 10:08 AM

Yes it is I suppose.
Life is all about choice and what we choose to let rule us inside is what is always reflected on the outside.

Personally I thought the avatar was just plain funny.
Geographically the two species don't live in the same part of the world.
Psychologically I suppose the prey disturbing the predator to me represents the little voice or almost silent voice of the ever present heart, often ignored by the loud voice of the intellect and conditioning.
Its only when the ego sleeps that the heart seems to be present and tangible.
Like Maslows peak experience where reason is left behind for the pure experience of being, the awakening can be shocking to the intellect that is so conditioned to its icons.

But I suppose not everyone sees it the way I do.

Posted by: Enki Oct 04, 2007, 10:23 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Oct 04, 2007, 09:17 AM) *

Actually God cannot fail. People fail themselves, by their inability to comprehend reality beyond the personal opinions created by belief.
The educated listeners, or the Pharisees of the times could not stand to have their group control weakened and as a result manipulated the innocent through fear, and killed Jesus to remove the threat.
This seems to be the trend of the dark forces of the universe, to destroy anything that threatens their sovereignty.

Threats are really childish Enki. Tho you may believe in your magic and your ability to venerate righteousness I think you'll find that the end results are more than what you would have suspected.



On behalf of the neutral forces of the Universe [ tongue.gif ] I once again want to underline that if things continue in this way as they are you will discover for yourself presence of the Neutral Side of the Force which Mr. Lucas failed to describe in his epic Star Wars. The 'end results' will be much more specific and funny for you than you can imagine Joesus.

"Those days are unknown to me and to the angels, and only the God knows when that time will come." Jesus Christ

So there are things which even Jesus does not know. I mean that there is a bigger boss much wiser.

The true God cannot fail in long run perspective, in short run perspective situation fluctuates. The 1/f noise case Joesus. God's unlimited power dwells in the low-frequency region: as long the processes are so powerful He/She is concerning the destinies of certain events. So, anyway, the other parties have some certain restricted period of time for their game till the Great Wave will fully implement the true will of the great wisdom. If people master by their free will to boost the correlation, then the period needed to God to overcome things will shorten and that will serve to goodness of all creatures.

Besides rules can change in time, past can be mixed with the future. Proteus Operation by James P. Hogan.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 04, 2007, 01:33 PM

QUOTE
"Those days are unknown to me and to the angels, and only the God knows when that time will come." Jesus Christ"

The end result of the infinite possibilities are open to the choices people make in creating evolution. God is not a finite book, this I know.
QUOTE
On behalf of the neutral forces of the Universe I once again want to underline that if things continue in this way as they are you will discover for yourself presence of the Neutral Side of the Force which Mr. Lucas failed to describe in his epic Star Wars. The 'end results' will be much more specific and funny for you than you can imagine Joesus.

I have complete faith that everything is always in order. Even Now as they are.
One can either engage themselves in the present, or be a victim.

QUOTE
I mean that there is a bigger boss much wiser.

When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." He never said he was the Father.
Even when he said,"Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." He was making reference to something higher than the individual experience.

QUOTE
The 1/f noise case Joesus. God's unlimited power dwells in the low-frequency region: as long the processes are so powerful He/She is concerning the destinies of certain events. So, anyway, the other parties have some certain restricted period of time for their game till the Great Wave will fully implement the true will of the great wisdom. If people master by their free will to boost the correlation, then the period needed to God to overcome things will shorten and that will serve to goodness of all creatures.

Free will in alignment with the highest always prevails when the wheat and chaff are separated.

Jesus was also called "The destroyer"
Being that he wasn't afraid to offend the intellectuals who had completely removed themselves from the Truth of the most high he often irritated them in full knowledge that they would try to kill the messenger to prevent the message from taking hold.
Unfortunately those who believed themselves most righteous lost their grip in the control of the masses in ritual belief, by killing the messenger. I was after his death that people began to look within themselves for the answers to Truth rather than to rely on the voodoo tactics of people who would spell out futures of gloom and doom by using fear tactics to spin their minds around.
The Pharisees would often speak of their power through their connection to God to know Gods thoughts and when God was angry. They would spin stories of the end of time when God would make amends for their inappropriate behavior.

QUOTE
past can be mixed with the future.


That would be a fact when it comes to those who are still living the same scenarios lifetime after lifetime because they never wish to move beyond their delusions.


Some things/souls seem to never change. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Joesus Oct 04, 2007, 05:10 PM

indeed



Posted by: Enki Oct 04, 2007, 08:10 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Oct 04, 2007, 01:33 PM) *
Some things/souls seem to never change. rolleyes.gif


How funny...

Posted by: Enki Oct 04, 2007, 08:44 PM

Dear Rick,

Does very proactive preaching of a same theological approach leading to irritation of the forum members acceptable on forum with scientific rather than religious inclinations?
Please clarify your position.

Can you also please ask Joesus on your behalf to withstand from constant preaching and subliminal inclination to derail important topics?

It looks like that passive position of the moderators in matter related with Joesus writing stylistics offended such active members of the forum as Hey Hey and Trojan.
I think that matter should be regulated. Someone should write to Hey Hey and Trojan asking them to return. Those who maintain the forum, in my opinion, should regulate the misunderstandings as soon as possible.

Bests,
Enki

Posted by: Enki Oct 04, 2007, 08:59 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Oct 04, 2007, 01:33 PM) *
Jesus was also called "The destroyer"
Being that he wasn't afraid to offend the intellectuals who had completely removed themselves from the Truth of the most high he often irritated them in full knowledge that they would try to kill the messenger to prevent the message from taking hold.


So you are destroying the forum, right?

It is called Christian Fundamentalism. laugh.gif

Posted by: Joesus Oct 04, 2007, 10:33 PM

QUOTE

So you are destroying the forum, right?

I doubt that would be possible.

Maybe it's evolving, and those that aren't ready to evolve with it are falling away.

Posted by: Flex Oct 04, 2007, 10:49 PM

Ahh the BM gossip column... I think it is about time for some moderating. There are 10 pages of posts, but very little to do with psychedelics.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 04, 2007, 11:28 PM

But very much to do with expanding consciousness.

There is more to life than black and white thinking.

And much more to this forum than me and the threads I visit.
(Contrary to the dramatic interpretation of the Dramatica)

Posted by: Enki Oct 05, 2007, 02:27 AM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Oct 04, 2007, 10:33 PM) *

QUOTE

So you are destroying the forum, right?

I doubt that would be possible.

Maybe it's evolving, and those that aren't ready to evolve with it are falling away.


Such statements are manifestation of extra level of disrespect.

The forum is not a place for Pokemon’s evolution.

Posted by: Enki Oct 05, 2007, 02:33 AM

Hope you are not keeping the mood of Dr. Jack von Hamsterviel Joesus?


Posted by: Joesus Oct 05, 2007, 08:36 AM

QUOTE(Enki @ Oct 05, 2007, 10:27 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Oct 04, 2007, 10:33 PM) *

QUOTE

So you are destroying the forum, right?

I doubt that would be possible.

Maybe it's evolving, and those that aren't ready to evolve with it are falling away.


Such statements are manifestation of extra level of disrespect.

The forum is not a place for Pokemon’s evolution.

No? It is ground for the continuing evolution of human development and conscious awareness I think.
Or it could be a chat room for cliques or trendy beliefs where segregation of input is encouraged by certain headstrong individuals who wish to manipulate subject matter to be exclusive to ones own ideas

Generally speaking if someone is in disagreement, then either they become aware of it and work within the field of recognition or they build walls to keep out the opposing thought and or retreat from the field of comprehension to label it as evil or destructive.

If I don't see potential as being disrespectful, then I guess it would be a matter of perspective.

Latest observation is that Trojan Libido saw this as a debating ground, but left because rules of engagement didn't fit his bill.

Now you see me as a cartoon villain and believe the cartoon is so real you want the moderators to change the program so you won't have to watch.

I guess I just don't see the world the same way you do.



Posted by: Enki Oct 05, 2007, 01:19 PM

I mentioned the Pokemon’s evolution and made a remark about Dr. Jack von Hamsterviel to help you to understand quite complex things.

Dianah made for you very important comments above Joesus, you should pay attention to her wise words.

I just hope that you will understand why Hey Hey and Trojan got so irritated over your style and method of discourse.

If you implement that style intentionally following some certain tactics, then soon you will make new discoveries about some properties of Narnia.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 05, 2007, 09:22 PM

QUOTE
I mentioned the Pokemon’s evolution and made a remark about Dr. Jack von Hamsterviel to help you to understand quite complex things.

I think if you live in a complex world it would be a handicap to living in simplicity.
QUOTE

Dianah made for you very important comments above Joesus, you should pay attention to her wise words.
Rather than seeing what comes to you in judgment, you should see it as a gift for your growth in conscious awareness?
That would make me less of a threat or a nuisance and more of a gift, to you, HH and TL. And all of you a gift for my growth as well.
In that I think a gift should be explored rather than treated as a nuisance.
QUOTE

I just hope that you will understand why Hey Hey and Trojan got so irritated over your style and method of discourse.

It's not important really. I think if I worry about what others think about me I would be less of who I am and more of what everyone expects me to be. I think that is a state of psychosis most people suffer from.
It would seem that everyone thinks they are victims to reality, rather than creators of their reality.

QUOTE

If you implement that style intentionally following some certain tactics, then soon you will make new discoveries about some properties of Narnia.
I think you see things coming at you rather than as something you are in conscious connection to. You keep saying I intentionally implement some style that contain certain tactics. I also think you see something you want/need to see. I haven't come here to destroy this forum as you might believe I could.
You might try wearing some hematite to help ground you a little more, rather than float around in the world of pokemon and Narnia.
Conspiracy theories based on exalted perceptions can be extremely distracting.

Posted by: Enki Oct 06, 2007, 12:57 AM

QUOTE
I think if you live in a complex world it would be a handicap to living in simplicity.


When simple things are intentionally converted into complex issues meshing the true outlook of an image into complex pattern leading rather to Neuro Linguistic Dumping of mental activities of a viewer (reader) rather than to proper and fast apprehension of the key ideas expressed and mutual data bases enrichment, then the usage of word IF in this context is a behaviour of extra amoral degree.

QUOTE
Rather than seeing what comes to you in judgment, you should see it as a gift for your growth in conscious awareness?


It is the question you should ask to yourself.

QUOTE
That would make me less of a threat or a nuisance and more of a gift, to you, HH and TL. And all of you a gift for my growth as well. In that I think a gift should be explored rather than treated as a nuisance.


Very soon I will conduct in depth exploration of you and your gifts, be sure...

QUOTE
It's not important really. I think if I worry about what others think about me I would be less of who I am and more of what everyone expects me to be. I think that is a state of psychosis most people suffer from. It would seem that everyone thinks they are victims to reality, rather than creators of their reality.


No, a proper and educated person should have manners and respect others opinion and tastes as well. Your pompous writings irritate people. People come here to communicate with each other, get satisfaction of communication with interesting people, enrich their knowledge and talk about cabbages and kings, they do not like when topics are polluted with fogy mnemonic texts affecting on their brains, mood and temper.

QUOTE
I think you see things coming at you rather than as something you are in conscious connection to. You keep saying I intentionally implement some style that contain certain tactics. I also think you see something you want/need to see. I haven't come here to destroy this forum as you might believe I could.


I see. You are a righteous boy and Hey Hey, Trojan and I are morons not respecting your shiny ideas to such an extent that two of us already leaved the forum because of you!

QUOTE
You might try wearing some hematite to help ground you a little more, rather than float around in the world of pokemon and Narnia. Conspiracy theories based on exalted perceptions can be extremely distracting.


Really a Hematite protecting from Elves, whau. You know Joesus, even do not try to throw a glove to the Invisible World.

I am warning you for the last time asking you to respect opinions of the other people.

Posted by: lucid_dream Oct 06, 2007, 09:01 AM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 04, 2007, 12:34 AM) *

Everytime someone posts new information into this or any other post, you come back with a "God is beyond experience, beyond the infinite" or some other tripe. You believe in a God, you are a fool sir. The experience of "God" is grounded in biology, we feel it at times because of chemicals in the brain and certain experiences. You just derail everything thats said. You are so far up your own arse its unreal, you barely add to any subject other than to sound off like your the new Krishna. You are not enlightened, you are not even well informed, you sir are a cock. I'm going to leave Brainmeta because for one, theres not enough activity on this forum, and two, I 'd have to put up with you.

I dont think anyone here

Please Rick, before I go, what exactly do you find interesting in Joesus "there is no spoon" chat? If he was so open minded, why wouldnt he give an opinion on anything other than everyone elses "Ego" and "illusion". Its completely F**KING ridiculous. Theres too much pompous behaviour on this board, and its no wonder its dead.

Goodbye to all.


Trojan_libido, everyone has their own viewpoints. Some people are easier to convince and sway than others. That's Life. You're not going to win everyone over. The best you can do is express your own beliefs and viewpoints, and let others do what they will.

I think part of the value of Joesus' posts is that he continuously brings us back to the 'mystical', to that which our naturalistic theories do not encapsulate, and is a constant reminder that our theories do not explain everything, that there are limits to what we can express to others, and that we should not identify ourselves with these limitations.


Posted by: Joesus Oct 06, 2007, 09:28 AM

QUOTE

When simple things are intentionally converted into complex issues meshing the true outlook of an image into complex pattern leading rather to Neuro Linguistic Dumping of mental activities of a viewer (reader) rather than to proper and fast apprehension of the key ideas expressed and mutual data bases enrichment, then the usage of word IF in this context is a behaviour of extra amoral degree.

People naturally absorb what is eternal and make that part of their lives.
Any dumping, or mental images which vanish in the disturbance of activity, are images that are fabricated from illusion and images they would intentionally replace of their own accord.
But in much simpler terms. People create their own reality, they draw to themselves experience, and in those experiences all mental images in which to facilitate that experience.
In this case any amoral activity is solely due to the inability to reduce activity to its simplest idea.
This is how God created the devil in symbolic terms. One takes the simple Truth and makes it into a complicated matter and then divides matter into subjective and objective experiences that can be invaded.
In any case one simply need let go of any mental images of conflict and take the awareness to that which unites all things and all scenarios. In that light there is nothing evil or conflicting or threating in any way.
QUOTE
Rather than seeing what comes to you in judgment, you should see it as a gift for your growth in conscious awareness?
It is the question you should ask to yourself.

Eventually one stops asking that question and lives it.
Then there is nothing one faces that is foreign or separate. That however doesn't preclude the activity around ones self from continuing to display remnants of suicidal tendencies and ignorance.
Which is why Jesus hung from the cross.
QUOTE

Very soon I will conduct in depth exploration of you and your gifts, be sure...

No no no, you're looking at it backwards.
The one who interprets reality is the one who is creating it in the first place. It's all based on interpretation or in this case, possibly the lack of.
Take a crowd of people who witness an event, and each through their own ability to comprehend will experience the event differently. It is the witnesser who has created the event through interpretation. In other words this sentence: "Rather than seeing what comes to you in judgment, you should see it as a gift for your growth in conscious awareness?" represents the introspective awareness of self interpretation and the lead to discovery of the self.
Are we our thoughts and experiences, or as our thoughts and experiences change are we change itself?
Those who believe they are their thoughts and experiences would believe they are anger, jealousy, fear etc.etc.
However in the pride that has risen in the reality of the ego one denies the attributes that are judged and makes adjustments in awareness to create faults in objects of perception, making them (objects of perception) the cause of judgment and experience, rather than taking responsibility themselves for making assumptions based on ignorance and separation of the experience and experiencer.
I am not the bearer of gifts, You are giving yourself the gifts always and it is those things or objects you see as separate that are the gifts to integrate your fractured identities into the whole you.
QUOTE

No, a proper and educated person should have manners and respect others opinion and tastes as well. Your pompous writings irritate people.

A properly educated person does not take responsibility for how another thinks or interprets life. As such one does not have to live from fear or co-dependence, tiptoeing through life fearing to upset another. Everyone has the ability to freely think and express but they fear that ability will take away another's ability to freely interpret reality.
So in this fear, people who are uneducated in this reality fear to speak their minds because they think it might upset another, and so they stuff their own feelings and ideas in favor of starting something they cannot control.
A properly educated person always takes everything in as their own creation, and as such is not moved by judgment toward ones outer world when the inner becomes the outer.
QUOTE
People come here to communicate with each other, get satisfaction of communication with interesting people, enrich their knowledge and talk about cabbages and kings, they do not like when topics are polluted with fogy mnemonic texts affecting on their brains, mood and temper.

Exactly but what they don't like, is what exists inside of themselves. When that is brought to the surface they blame the outside circumstances. In an attempt to control the circumstance they forget that their communication has been made into shallow creeping foot steps to not disturb what is laying dormant within themselves. This ego then attempts to validate union with the outside world in like mindedness and agreement rather than at the depths of their being.
This then creates division in politics and spirituality. Humans separate themselves according to their beliefs and their lines in the sand, ever on the defensive for those who would seem to be able to disturb their castles made of sand.

QUOTE

I see. You are a righteous boy and Hey Hey, Trojan and I are morons not respecting your shiny ideas to such an extent that two of us already leaved the forum because of you!

Apparently HH TL and you feel that your opinions could be threatened by another and as a result are seeking to fight for your right to feel that way.

QUOTE

Really a Hematite protecting from Elves, whau. You know Joesus, even do not try to throw a glove to the Invisible World.
I'm not attempting to shut out the invisible worlds, only reminding you that if you continue to be distracted by the invisible, you won't fully appreciate the visible.
I find that those who identify with their celestial selves have an aversion to this world, and as such have a hard time staying present in this reality, which they created to learn how to become less distracted by shiny objects and adversely conditioned to what lies dormant within.

QUOTE
I am warning you for the last time asking you to respect opinions of the other people.

Your warnings only come at the expense of your own extended inability to comprehend your connection to those of whom you separate yourself.
Learn to respect yourself in those others who you see as separate and expand yourself beyond the shiny identity with Eridug. You are much more than that.

Posted by: Enki Oct 06, 2007, 11:29 AM

QUOTE
You are much more than that.


You even do not know who am I, and at the same time you try and dare to teach me life, philosophy and religion; you even dare to preach like a mentor.

I suggest to stop the discussion. And please, do not ignore my warning. I am not joking, I am very serious. I have been too tolerant to many parties for very, very, very long period of time, but things and times are changing.



Posted by: Enki Oct 06, 2007, 11:35 AM

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Oct 06, 2007, 09:01 AM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 04, 2007, 12:34 AM) *

Everytime someone posts new information into this or any other post, you come back with a "God is beyond experience, beyond the infinite" or some other tripe. You believe in a God, you are a fool sir. The experience of "God" is grounded in biology, we feel it at times because of chemicals in the brain and certain experiences. You just derail everything thats said. You are so far up your own arse its unreal, you barely add to any subject other than to sound off like your the new Krishna. You are not enlightened, you are not even well informed, you sir are a cock. I'm going to leave Brainmeta because for one, theres not enough activity on this forum, and two, I 'd have to put up with you.

I dont think anyone here

Please Rick, before I go, what exactly do you find interesting in Joesus "there is no spoon" chat? If he was so open minded, why wouldnt he give an opinion on anything other than everyone elses "Ego" and "illusion". Its completely F**KING ridiculous. Theres too much pompous behaviour on this board, and its no wonder its dead.

Goodbye to all.


Trojan_libido, everyone has their own viewpoints. Some people are easier to convince and sway than others. That's Life. You're not going to win everyone over. The best you can do is express your own beliefs and viewpoints, and let others do what they will.

I think part of the value of Joesus' posts is that he continuously brings us back to the 'mystical', to that which our naturalistic theories do not encapsulate, and is a constant reminder that our theories do not explain everything, that there are limits to what we can express to others, and that we should not identify ourselves with these limitations.


As I see Lucid_dream the preservation of the active logo Joesus is of extreme importance. Right?

Even do not hope that the desired miracle (effect) will happen (reemerge) without good will of the true Lord.

Posted by: Enki Oct 06, 2007, 11:43 AM

Cursory esoteric comment (as I see some value that approach)

There are rumors that The Sleeping God wants to shake up and throw down to the ground the bunch of some guys sitting on his shoulders and climbed on his head and wake up.
Just try to imagine the consequences of that historic event.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 06, 2007, 11:54 AM

QUOTE(Enki @ Oct 06, 2007, 07:29 PM) *

QUOTE
You are much more than that.


You even do not know who am I, and at the same time you try and dare to teach me life, philosophy and religion; you even dare to preach like a mentor.

I suggest to stop the discussion. And please, do not ignore my warning. I am not joking, I am very serious. I have been too tolerant to many parties for very, very, very long period of time, but things and times are changing.

I doubt that you would be open to anything more than what you already know and so the idea of teaching you something never crossed my mind. I would dare to express myself to that affect regardless of your position.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 06, 2007, 03:31 PM

QUOTE(Dianah @ Oct 06, 2007, 10:24 PM) *

has anyone else noticed a difference in Joes posts...as to their intent...tone...verbage...etc?

not all things are as they appear to be.

yeah, now that you mention it..

Posted by: Joesus Oct 06, 2007, 06:24 PM

The feminine generally rudders and the masculine is the oar.
On occasion we can switch roles without changing clothes. It'd be a matter of surrender.

Posted by: Enki Oct 06, 2007, 09:05 PM

It was such a nice topic about Mashrooms and it is now fully derailed.

There is a great desire to sing the following song:
"So for the sake of the Forum this Joesus must dump ..."

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 07, 2007, 05:27 PM

QUOTE(Dianah @ Sep 10, 2007, 08:00 PM) *

as the age old saying goes...do no throw your pearls before swine.


that is a good saying, will keep it in mind

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 07, 2007, 05:38 PM

QUOTE(Enki @ Oct 06, 2007, 10:05 PM) *

It was such a nice topic about Mashrooms and it is now fully derailed.

There is a great desire to sing the following song:
"So for the sake of the Forum this Joesus must dump ..."


I would like to see Joesus come to the shroomery.org forums and spill his preachings there, and see them get ripped to pieces (all for the good).

When it comes to annoying barking dogs, the best thing to do IMO is avoid. It's the only thing you can do, and it will save a lot of energy.

I see so many people talk and talk and talk like they know and experience the deepest connection and harmony in life. What I fail to see is Joesus lack of connection to the other members on this forum. That is not harmony and that is not spirituality, that is the mind playing tricks.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 07, 2007, 05:59 PM

The connection between people is not in the external pleasantries but in the deeper connection that plays a part in the growth of consciousness.
If someone is clear about their intentions then they are not required to capitulate to the flow of the majority.

Your desire to watch me be torn to shreds is a good example of how connecting with another doesn't have to be through sentiment or like-minded-ness.
If you could ignore me you wouldn't be harboring violent thoughts toward what you want to see destroyed, and so you have connected to something you experience in me that is a part of you. That is what is called reflection.

As you probably know already God is connected to everything, yet people still desire to see what they want to see in a god that is united on the outside in mutual agreement or a false harmony that protects the senses from being disturbed. So they create religions where they tear people to shreds, even put them to death for attempting to think differently. All in the name of what they call spirituality.

Besides, I never preach.

Posted by: Rick Oct 08, 2007, 03:58 PM

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 04, 2007, 12:34 AM) *
Please Rick, before I go, what exactly do you find interesting in Joesus "there is no spoon" chat? If he was so open minded, why wouldnt he give an opinion on anything other than everyone elses "Ego" and "illusion". Its completely F**KING ridiculous. Theres too much pompous behaviour on this board, and its no wonder its dead.

Goodbye to all.

What's "educational" in these dialogues is the revealing nature of the reactions of the personalities. More circumspection and less emotional reaction would lead to more light and less heat in the discussion.

As you probably have observed, I enjoy thinking about philosophy, including philosophy of religion. Therefore, I find that Buddhist philosophy is interesting, and if you read closely, you will see that Joesus' philosophy and attitude has a lot of resemblance to some types of Buddhism.

For that viewpoint, the "non-game" approach is everything, and it (the conflict) can't be "gamed." That is, a non-game can't be won or lost. Therein lies some humor, or at least irony.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 08, 2007, 04:09 PM

If your really invested then there is a need to win. If your not then there is just the game.

Someone once said the meaning of life is not in the end result, but in the journey.

But it's not just a Buddhist philosophy.

Posted by: Rick Oct 08, 2007, 04:41 PM

QUOTE(Joesus @ Oct 08, 2007, 05:09 PM) *

If your really invested then there is a need to win. If your not then there is just the game.

Someone once said the meaning of life is not in the end result, but in the journey.

But it's not just a Buddhist philosophy.

Another irony is that psychedelics in strong doses result in temporary ego death. Those familiar with the state should have no problem observing themselves getting wrapped up in a game, which might lead to laughter.

Posted by: Joesus Oct 08, 2007, 05:09 PM

You caught that eh?

Posted by: Orbz Oct 08, 2007, 06:06 PM

QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 09, 2007, 08:41 AM) *

Another irony is that psychedelics in strong doses result in temporary ego death. Those familiar with the state should have no problem observing themselves getting wrapped up in a game, which might lead to laughter.

Thankyou, I need reminding of it every now and then; especially when I've not been doing the practice that I should be doing.

Posted by: Enki Oct 09, 2007, 09:47 PM

Protection of the forum from religious maniacs and narcotic addicted people is an important option. smile.gif

Posted by: maximus242 Oct 10, 2007, 03:55 AM

QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 08, 2007, 05:58 PM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Oct 04, 2007, 12:34 AM) *
Please Rick, before I go, what exactly do you find interesting in Joesus "there is no spoon" chat? If he was so open minded, why wouldnt he give an opinion on anything other than everyone elses "Ego" and "illusion". Its completely F**KING ridiculous. Theres too much pompous behaviour on this board, and its no wonder its dead.

Goodbye to all.

What's "educational" in these dialogues is the revealing nature of the reactions of the personalities. More circumspection and less emotional reaction would lead to more light and less heat in the discussion.

As you probably have observed, I enjoy thinking about philosophy, including philosophy of religion. Therefore, I find that Buddhist philosophy is interesting, and if you read closely, you will see that Joesus' philosophy and attitude has a lot of resemblance to some types of Buddhism.

For that viewpoint, the "non-game" approach is everything, and it (the conflict) can't be "gamed." That is, a non-game can't be won or lost. Therein lies some humor, or at least irony.


Ah finally, a man of reason, very insightful post Rick.

Posted by: Rick Oct 10, 2007, 10:31 AM

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Oct 10, 2007, 04:55 AM) *
Ah finally, a man of reason, very insightful post Rick.

Thanks, Max. I thought yesterday's Dilbert cartoon was very timely, so I reproduce it here:



This humerous interlude is actually "on topic" as shown here:

1. Topic originates on theme that mushroom (and, by implication, any "entheogen") ingestion can lead to authentic religious experience (a controversial conclusion).

2. Counter opinion is expressed to the effect that psychedelic experience is like taking a picture from a fast moving car and thinking reality has been captured.

3. Opinion is further expressed that union with the ultimate can be best achieved without chemical augmentation.

4. Several strident protests ensue to the effect that the thread is being hijacked by a know-nothing interloper intent on ramming his opinions down everyone's throats.

5. Evidence is presented that the discussion is actually constructive, in its way.

6. Passions cool somewhat and the dynamic of the thread is shown to have relevance to the topic (entheogenic personal transformation).

7. The (newly realized on-topic) dynamic of the thread is illustrated with a cartoon.

Posted by: Enki Oct 12, 2007, 10:22 AM

I have a practical question: can I grow those magical mushrooms at room and where I can buy the seeds? Any links?

Posted by: lions honey Oct 12, 2007, 10:52 PM

I would like to refresh the topic if I may, concerning God and magic mushrooms. I've read and skimmed through most of the 11 pages of posts, and seeing now it has sort of trailed off, I'm interested in redirecting the conversation back to where it started.

I myself have a long history both of God and magic mushrooms. I wasn't raised in church, but I did put my faith in Jesus Christ at the age of 16. Before then I'd experienced magic mushrooms, and even after then there was a period of about a month that I really acquainted myself with the effects of psilocybin.

Before I get into the subject, I want to say how important, I think, a man's whole life is when speaking about life's issues when they have spiritual import. I am very curious of some of your lives. A man may sound wise, right? he may talk like he is convinced of the truth. But when you look into his life, the way he lives, the way he interacts with people, friends, family, strangers, in the countless relationships that come his way in life, his character is exposed and THAT is who the person is and how well he really knows God. I say this because it is so easy to talk like we get the truth when we're on our computers. And that's because we're naturally hidden and we know it.

Now for the subject. Since the headline itself presupposes many different assumptions, I would like to presume in my statements just to be fair.

God, who dwelt fully in the Lord Jesus Christ, clearly exists apart from you or I, magic mushrooms and everything. He is holy, outside of time and space, the eternal and everlasting God. He created all things and nothing was made that wasn't made by him. Everything is from him, through him, for him, and to him.

If he is in the magic mushrooms all over the world, well, he may be in some way, as he created them, as they exist in him, and by him they consist, but in the direct sense we can be sure he isn't. Hard to give an account for your life to a God who is in everything.

Magic mushrooms do expand consciousness. It causes the individual to see and think in universal terms. But the glory of God is man fully alive. For me, expanding consciousness isn't a term I want for my life nor my children's lives'. Yet alive is.

The Apostle Paul was captivated by the Son of God "who loved me and gave himself for me." He counted all his religious credentials as "dung for the excellency of the knowledge of the Son of God." Paul wanted Christ, to suffer with him, to walk in his resurrection, and to be raised with him one day. Like Peter, he loved Christ.

So Paul said, "If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus, let him be anathema. The Lord comes! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all. My love in Christ be with you all."

Do you love the Lord Jesus? Do you know him as the one who loved you and gave himself for you? I tell you, if you want to know God and grow close to Him, read the Bible and let it and it alone determine the conclusions of your experience. There is no other way to know what the heck is going on. Shrooms has its limitations. But not the word of God. The word of God is alive. More than a mushroom ever was.

Thanks for reading.

Posted by: lucid_dream Oct 13, 2007, 09:51 AM

thanks for the good laugh, lions honey. Too bad for your children though as you seem to be intent on limiting the realization of their potential.

Posted by: forgottenpresence Oct 14, 2007, 01:35 AM

QUOTE(lions honey @ Oct 12, 2007, 11:52 PM) *

God, who dwelt fully in the Lord Jesus Christ, clearly exists apart from you or I, magic mushrooms and everything. He is holy, outside of time and space, the eternal and everlasting God. He created all things and nothing was made that wasn't made by him. Everything is from him, through him, for him, and to him.


you are talking about god like he has human characteristics. also IMO god is not separate from us, we are separate from god because of ego.

when we ate from the tree of knowledge we atomized ourselves away from the wholeness that is presence and energy beating like a heartbeat within our being. the heartbeat slowly faded as language and society evolved and now many are living within this construct created by us. this construct is our conditioning and it is what separates us from god.

god is in everyone and everything on this planet. how is he separate? are we not the ones who have separated ourselves from him?

Posted by: Joesus Oct 14, 2007, 09:18 AM

QUOTE
are we not the ones who have separated ourselves from him?

When one takes an object outside of themselves and says, "this is God and through God I shall know God," there exists what is called idolatry. It doesn't matter if you try and incorporate everything the senses perceive and then what is beyond the senses, it still is a projection based on a thought of what God is.
Someone once said, "we are God experiencing," if that were true then we would be God's experience and not really God encapsulated in an experience, especially if the experience is constantly changing and evolving.
To say we have separated ourselves from God is even a projection. It is something we cannot do, nor can ego separate man from God.


Is 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

Even when Jesus said "I and my Father are one" and "the Father is in me, and I in him." He made no reference to himself being God, or that "The Gods" (God in experience) make a God.
Nothing can make a God if God already exists.

There are many ideas of how to take a god object or object containing God to gain more God within ones self, such as eating a mushroom, saying a prayer or mantra but the fact is there is no more God in any object no matter what its qualities or size. Do ye good or do ye evil and behold it together means they both come from the same source.
It is not the objects nor the perceptions of God objects and experience that make one more God like or aware of God but the absorption of ones self in God, uniting all perceptions in unity which make all perceptions great and irrelevant at the same time.

Posted by: lucid_dream Oct 14, 2007, 09:26 AM

QUOTE(lions honey @ Oct 12, 2007, 11:52 PM) *
But when you look into his life, the way he lives, the way he interacts with people, friends, family, strangers, in the countless relationships that come his way in life, his character is exposed and THAT is who the person is and how well he really knows God.

In other words, you equate knowing God with (character revealed through) interpersonal relationships. How impoverished and self-limiting is that?


Posted by: lions honey Oct 14, 2007, 10:41 PM

lucid_dream, I don't think that I do. But I do equate knowing men of God, or men of light, by the way in which they deal with the world around them. Simply to say, you will know them by their fruit.

When it comes to potential, you hit a soft spot with your remark. I don't know a more personally important element in my life and in the lives of my children. I am only 25. I will be in my prime soon. How I want to know what I'm really made of. Who is more equipped to bring about man's potential, man or God?

I don't focus my energies on expanding consciousness or realizing my potential. I focus on what matters: building the kingdom of God. We can trust the Lord cares for the things we care about as men, that He will work those out if we yield our wills, and give us the desires of our hearts if we trust Him. He designed us. He knows us. Look! He formed the woman's breasts. He knows what makes our hearts jump. I am sure he will lead me through such a life, that in the end I will turn and look back with wonder. Paul says of God that He is able to do more than we can ask or imagine. Of course! He is able to make the most of me, and my children. And for His glory, he will see to it that men who do not trust him will fall.

Skim your eyes over Romans 8 and focus your center of gravity on the words... "creation awaits eagerly for the revelation of the sons of God..." and "the freedom of the glory of the children of God." What glory, or what potential to use your words, awaits His saints in the eternal day. Therefore, we can rest when it comes to the matter of glorious self-expression, and busy ourselves with what Jesus said, Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Lay up for yourself treasure in heaven.



Joesus, you are deep man.



forgottenpresence, that's one way of putting it. It's clear Adam and Eve separated their life from God unto death by their disobedience. What's more, we are all sentenced to death in Adam since sin entered the world through him. And if you notice, the Lord drove him and his wife out of the garden. Doesn't that make you think of the time Jesus made a whip of cords and drove the businessmen out of His Father's house? The holiness of God! Who will be able to stand? We have quite the dilemma.

Posted by: lucid_dream Oct 15, 2007, 07:43 AM

QUOTE(lions honey @ Oct 14, 2007, 11:41 PM) *
lucid_dream, I don't think that I do. But I do equate knowing men of God, or men of light, by the way in which they deal with the world around them. Simply to say, you will know them by their fruit.

sure. I don't disagree, only thought, perhaps mistakenly, that you were unnecessarily elevating social skills, which although important are by no means the only important things in life, over other skills and talents.

I have read the bible often, particularly in my youth, but for me, the bible, and the anthropomorphic God it espouses, are for children who tend not to think critically, and cannot satisfy those with deeper spiritual needs. I hope you grow past the bible, but as you know, not all are chosen, and in fact, most must remain content with half-truths and fictions concerning God.


Powered by
© Invision Power Services