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BrainMeta.com Forum _ Cognitive Enhancers _ The best nootropic stack

Posted by: casa861 Jan 17, 2012, 03:29 AM

Hi, I wanted to ask you if you do not mind, if you could recommend a good nootropic stack?
My situation is this:
I'm 25 years old, tall 175 cm and weight 100 Kg (230pound),I'm an engineering student.
I need a stack that would make me give my best in terms of concentration, memory, intelligence etc.
During this time I will have to face many tests, and most likely will go to a nervous breakdown and I'll be in a state of anxiety.
Half of these tests are mostly based on knowledge, while the other half of the more complex problem solving.
I state that I have already used the piracetam (2400 mg daily) and choline bitrate (700mg).
You could list a stack perfect for my problem?
Thank you for your time.

Posted by: casa861 Jan 17, 2012, 03:32 AM

I intend to point out also that I am physically fit, I made a visit to the cardiologist who is the general blood tests and thyroid.
Thank you again.

Posted by: mban Jan 28, 2012, 11:43 AM

THIS POST WAS UPDATED 22/07/13

Hello casa861,

When looking at the brain and human memory you have to consider a variety of things which increase the ability to store, process, and recall information:

1) Cerebral blood flow - Neurons require large portions of our bodily blood flow to function effectively. More blood flow equates to increased oxygenation, which is required for energy formation from the powerhouse of our cells, mitochondria, when needed. More blood flow also increases nutrient and protein availability in order to express brain relevant genes and help in the conversion of precursor nutrients into relevant molecules that are required for optimal brain processing.

2) Adequate supply of nutrients required for the formation of neurotransmitters - these include amino acids such as tyrosine (precursor to adrenaline/epinephrine, noradrenaline/norepinephrine and dopamine), tryptophan (precursor to serotonin), acetyl-CoA and choline (precursors to acetylcholine formation), etc. Sufficient vitamins/minerals/nutrients are also needed as co-factors in many cellular reactions that are used to clear out debris from inside of our cells, and maintain proper cell functioning. Glucose is the primary food source for neurons of the brain. Better glucose regulation leads to better brain functioning (i.e. eat right and exercise to avoid diabetes - diabetes messes with brain functioning!).

3) A large supply of antioxidants - When parts of your brain are very active then generate large quantities of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which go on to damage cellular proteins, cell membranes, etc. Antioxidants act to "mop up" these ROS and prevent their eventual "brain fog" causing properties. Phytonutrients (e.g. from blueberries) can also help to make cells in our body produce more of our own "endogenous" anti-oxidants, which are best at countering ROS and keeping brain cells happy and firing.

4) Excitability level - Neurons only send transmission after they have received enough activation in order to "fire" and send on their signal. The most prevalent source of excitation for cerebral cortex neurons is through activation of glutamate channels by glutamate neurotransmitter. This excitation is mainly opposed by GABA and glycine neurotransmitters acting on GABA and Glycine channels, respectively, which effectively blunt the signal as they are inhibitory. The brain requires the precise and correct combination of excitation and inhibition in order to work optimally. Both too much excitation, or too much inhibition and the system will not function at its best.

5) Levels of neuronal branching - Neurons receive signals primarily through their dendrites, which are like the arms of a tree. If a neuron is very healthy it will be more branched, and the more branched the more information the system can hold (more connections between concepts are able to be formed).

6) Metabolic health - Neurons, as cells, are required to produce large amounts of ATP (the energy molecule of the cell). Sufficient production of ATP is needed in order to sustain neuron activity for prolonged amounts of time. ATP is broken down during use into ADP and AMP, which can signal to the cell that it is tired and needs to rest. If you can recycle ADP and AMP back into ATP faster, then the brain thinks it is less tired and can maintain high activity for longer.

Alright, now that you have a little background let’s get in to what to do to boost brain function. Here are the basics first:

A) A general multivitamin (best/cheapest I find is LifeExtension's 2 per day multi's) - Provide you with the general nutrients to manufacture brain chemicals. I buy mine from iherb.com. You can use my coupon code "DET228" for $5-10 off if you are a first time customer. NO, I don't have any affiliation with them, they just have pretty good prices (but you can find better prices for bulk items on other sites!)
B) Get plenty of exercise - While not a nootropic pill per say, this is one of the best for increasing levels of nerve growth factor (NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), both of which increase the amount of dendrite branching and increase connections between difficult concepts, which helps with memory and with solving problems. Also, exercise helps with maintaining blood vessel elasticity and compliance so that blood flow can be better directed to different parts of the body when needed (i.e. makes the blood vessels of the brain more responsive to changes in neuron activity, and therefore helps neurons become more efficient at getting nutrients and functioning at their maximal capacity). Exercise also stresses cells, and makes them decide to clean out cellular junk/debris so that they function more efficiently. Further, it helps neurons build up a tolerance for functioning at high capacity with lower levels of available resources (neurons can adapt to exercise over time by becoming more resistant to becoming tired - means that you can study for longer without feeling as tired and without getting as much brain fog).
C) Get 7-10 hours of sleep a night - helps with keeping neuron energy stores high and promotes larger brain levels of NGF and BDNF. Proper rest, and a consistent sleep-wake schedule, can be the most effective "nootropic" that most people can give their bodies. The recommended amount of sleep for most adults is 8 hours, but if you need more for functioning best; work it into your schedule.

After you have those ones down pact, here are certain supplements/drugs/herbs that will help you out. Most can be bought from iherb.com or nutrabio.com (cheap sources). Take all on an empty stomach. All separate doses should be taken 4-6 hours apart. Do not take less than 4 hours before bed:

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg CoQ10 per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 200-500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) CDP-choline - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
G) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
H) Rhodiola Rosea and Eleuthero - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. They have a primary function of acting as "adaptogens" which help the body adapt to long periods of stress. They increase the amount of time that you can concentrate on a task at hand without becoming too tired to continue studying from the stress. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Rhodiola Rosea - 50-200mg, Eleuthero - 100-300mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
I) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five capsules per day.
J) Creatine monohydrate - Take 2 grams per day, PLUS 2-5 grams right before a big study session. Creatine plays a role within the cell of acting as a temporary energy carrier (as phosphocreatine), and is able to help replenish cellular levels of ATP by donating a phosphate group to ADP.


Cheers,

mban

Posted by: casa861 Feb 07, 2012, 03:22 AM

Thanks so much for the clear explanation!
Now I've made a good culture in this regard.
Thank you very much.

Posted by: Flandern Feb 15, 2012, 10:25 PM


Mban,

Thanks a lot!

Posted by: semi-retarded-individual Feb 25, 2012, 11:14 AM

mban, very interesting theory on the usage of racetams. After all my years of researching them I've never heard that take before. Is this pure conjecture or do you have any studies to substantiate your position?

Posted by: mban Feb 28, 2012, 02:38 PM

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov/pubmed/2641481

sciencedirect dot com /science/article/pii/S0167876099000446

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov /pubmed/8787170

sciencedirect dot com/science/article/pii/001346949390007I


My analysis was that piracetam decreases global complexity, thereby promoting an "alert, but relaxed" state which is consistent with the boost in alpha frequencies. That being said, a shift towards this state would be beneficial to those who have abnormal brain synchronization, such as those with schizophrenia, ADHD, dyslexia, or with advanced aging. Piracetam seems to interact with cell membranes causing changes in membrane fluidity, as well as changes in the receptor proportions found in cell membranes, which is beneficial to those who require it.

The brain is a complex organ which requires not only alpha or beta wave synchronization between neuronal subunits, but requires the correct combination of theta, alpha, beta, and omega frequency oscillations in order to function optimally and allow for the "binding" of information into a coherent whole. As stated above, the increase in alpha waves and decrease in global complexity associated with piracetam usage is perfectly fine for moreso automatic tasks that require concentration and accuracy when repeated consecutively, but I would not personally take it when I am required to do my best work. Notice that I am targeting the usage of piracetam to my own situation (being young), and therefore the use of piracetam will vary based on age and cognitive status.

Notice also that no studies that I am aware of have demonstrated significant increases in cognitive ability, apart from slight increases in verbal fluency, on the first day of testing for young/healthy subjects. For me to spend my money on this substance as a cognitive enhancer, I would need specific proof of increased cognitive ability tested from all domains OR that it allows for increased duration of mental effort at a high capacity.

All of this being said, piracetam still shows general health benefits, which I am aware of, and shows extremely low toxicity even at high doses, so there is relatively little stopping a person from trying it to see if it benefits them in some way.

If you find an article on general cognitive ability change in healthy/young subjects taking piracetam, point it out to me and I will take a look.

Cheers,

Mban

Posted by: kirbydude Mar 03, 2012, 09:14 AM

My stack:

Oxiracetam - Cerebral Health Powders 1 - 1 1/2 g~
Piracetam - Smart Drugs for Thought - Neuro-Boost 4,800mg
Alpha GPC - Jarrow Formulas - 600mg

I recently added Oxiracetam to my stack of Piracetam and Alpha GPC and have noticed a change in cognitive level. The ability to be much more innovative with focus and clarity has been the benefit. Before it was the same, but one step down. I have tried just tjhe Oxiracetam and Alpha GPC and noticed it was not the same without the Piracetam in the stack. I believe Oxiracetam and Piracetam work synergistically well together with Alpha GPC. This stack personally is proven to me each day to be beneficial in creative thinking and memory. Not only that I enhanced social and motor skills with this stack. I believe it is a build up of sticking with the program and Oxi was the final touch to it all. I think Cerebral Health provides a great product of Oxiracetam because I have bought other products from them in the past and they were quality. For the Neuro Boost Piracetam and Jarrow Alpha GPC, I find it very convenient for me to take capsules to save time and hide the bitter and astringent taste.

Posted by: alisha99 Jul 20, 2012, 01:08 AM

My stack:

Piracetam- 800mg one time or twice in a day.
Deprenyl- 15mg to 30mg per day.

Posted by: Jakare Jul 20, 2012, 03:33 AM

QUOTE(alisha99 @ Jul 20, 2012, 11:08 AM) *

My stack:

Piracetam- 800mg one time or twice in a day.
Deprenyl- 15mg to 30mg per day.

That is well inside the MAO-A Inhibition area (everything above 10-15mg/day)!!!
What if you get a cheesy snack and before realizing you have eaten half the bag or drank a glass of wine??? Such mistakes can happen specially when you are so busy feeling great and fixing the world...
I am just worried about you alisha99.

Posted by: Gamma Waves Jul 21, 2012, 03:38 PM

QUOTE(mban @ Jan 28, 2012, 02:43 PM) *

Hello casa861,

This is my first post in this forum but I am very knowledgeable in this particular area (schooling in neuroscience) and think I could help you out. Notice that I put "dot com" in the links so that I could post this as it is my first time posting in this forum.

When looking at the brain and human memory you have to consider a variety of things which increase ability to store, process, and recall information:

1) Cerebral blood flow - Neurons require large portions of our bodily blood flow to function effectively. More blood flow equates to increased oxygenation, which is required for energy formation from the powerhouse of our cells, mitochondria. More blood flow also increases nutrient and protein availability in order to express brain relevant genes and help in the conversion of precursor nutrients into relevant molecules that are required for optimal brain processing.

2) Adequate supply of nutrients required for the formation of neurotransmitters - these include amino acids such as tyrosine (adrenaline/epinephrine, noradrenaline/norepinephrine and dopamine), tryptophan (precursor to serotonin), acetyl-CoA and choline (precursors to acetylcholine formation), etc.

3) A large supply of antioxidants - When parts of your brain are very active then generate large quantities of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which go on to damage cellular proteins, cell membranes, etc. Antioxidants act to "mop up" these ROS and prevent their eventual "brain fog" causing properties.

4) Excitability level - Neurons only send transmission after they have received enough activation in order to "fire" and send on their signal. The most prevalent source of excitation for cerebral cortex neurons is through activation of glutamate channels. This excitation is mainly opposed by GABA and glycine, which effectively blunt the signal as they are inhibitory.

5) Levels of neuronal branching - Neurons receive signals through their dendrites, which are like the arms of a tree. The more interconnections between neurons, the more dendrites there will be, and the more information the system can hold (more connections between concepts are able to be formed).

6) Metabolic health - Neurons, as cells, are required to produce large amounts of ATP (the energy molecule of the cell). More ATP means that they can fire more times without getting as exhausted.

Alright, now that you have a little background let’s get in to what to do to boost brain function. Here are the basics first:

A) A general multivitamin (best/cheapest I find is LifeExtension's 2 per day multi's) - Provide you with the general nutrients to manufacture brain chemicals. I buy mine from iherb dot com. You can use my coupon code "DET108" for $5 off if you are a first time customer (if you don't want to use my referral coupon, "BUY123" is the generic one for iherb where you still get $5 off but don't give anyone commission).
cool.gif Get plenty of exercise - While not a nootropic pill per say, this one is one of the best for increasing levels of nerve growth factor (NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), both of which increase the amount of dendrite branching and increase connections between difficult concepts, which helps with memory and with solving problems.
C) Get AT LEAST 8 hours of sleep a night - helps with keeping neuron energy stores high and promotes larger brain levels of NGF and BDNF.

After you have those ones down pact, here are the supplements/drugs/herbs that will help you out. Most can be bought from iherb dot com or nutrabio dot com (cheapest sources). Take all on an empty stomach. All separate doses should be taken 4-6 hours apart. Do not take less than 4 hours before bed:

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate (ALCA) - Much of the same purpose as ALCAR, but the additional arginate enables the molecule to interact directly with the NGF receptors which ALCAR increased. - take 100-200mg per day, in 2 separate doses
G) Lion's Mane mushroom - Has a host of benefits including immune system boosting effects. Main effect you are looking for is its ability to stimulate NGF receptors. - Take 2-3 grams per day, in 2-3 divided doses. Cheapest source of this is "fungihealth dot com/affiliate/450", but the bulk 1 lb powder (yes this is an affiliate link, if you don't want to support me at all you can just remove the affiliate portion of the link). Lion's mane can also be purchased from iherb and some other sources on the internet. You want to make sure that the source you buy from uses extracted mycelium, and not only the fruiting body of the mushroom, as the myecilium contains the most active NGF boosting molecules (erinacines).
H) Choline citrate/bitartrate/Alpha-GPC/Etc. - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
I) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
J) Gotu Kola, Rhodiola Rosea, Eleuthero, Brahmi - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Gotu Kola - 100mg, Rhodiola Rosea - 50mg, Eleuthero - 100mg, Brahmi - 100mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
K) (Optional) Resveratrol - Increases the number and function of mitochondria within neural cells, helping with metabolic health and increasing levels of ATP. This one is also seen as an anti-aging aid as it increases expression of genes associated with long life (I won't get too much into that here). Take between 50-500mg (based on how much money you have to spend) in 2 divided doses.
L) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five 1g capsules per day.


Here is one that you won't hear on most forums: Reduce your usage of piracetam/oxiracetam/etc. The racetams increase coordination between different brain areas, thereby increasing a brain wave pattern called "alpha waves". Sounds good doesn't it??? What most people don't understand is that the brain does its best work (most complex processing of information) when in a "beta wave" state. In contrast to the "beta" name, beta waves are actually of higher frequency than alpha waves. This means that there is less coordination between large sections of brain tissue. This is actually a good thing and I will explain why: Each brain area can be seen as a small parallel processor which is specific for a certain type of information. A small chunk of brain area from the occipital lobe of your brain processes only one aspect of visual information, and nothing else. Now, the racetams force larger brain areas to process info that they were never intended to process. This means that instead of an area of 5 mm cubic processing the equation "5+5=?", you would then have an area of 10 mm cubic processing this same task. As you can gather from this, it would be much better to have 2000 small parallel processors working on separate chunks of info and have a really good system in place to combine the information from the separate processors, then to use very large brain areas to process very simple concepts. In a study, physicists were given piracetam before attempting difficult physics problems; it was found to actually decrease their ability to process complex information (I don't have the reference for this off-hand, but you can look it up on pubmed if you are interested). The alpha waves associated with piracetam are associated with repetitive and moreso automatic tasks. They are really good for concentration if you are doing regular 9-5 jobs, but for intense study sessions, exams and complex material, I would keep their use to a minimum.

Cheers,

mban


This is quite good, especially the early parts. I love the way you put this information and I use several of these pretty much for your stated reasons, including Lion's Mane, Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate, Choline, Ginko, Resveratrol, and etc. There are other choices for stress reduction including bacopa and/or artichoke extract. Also cAMP increase can help a lot with something like forskolin.

I'm not sure about the second part as there may be trade-offs there. I believe in cycling, as no stack should be forever. Aniracetam seems to relax social anxiety for many and leads to more fluid interaction. That itself is a form of intelligence. If I'm trying to up analytical skills I would use something else.

There is the building up of diverse background knowledge, the ability to find what problems are important to solve (looking for what forests are even worth exploring), then there's problem solving as in abstractions or creative connections for arts.

There is also social skills like group speaking. If I am speaking am I trying to argue and win as in debate or rhetoric, or am I passing the talking stick as in trying to produce a fecund discussion that involves many people and everyone gets their say. If I'm trying for a fecund discussion, then how much critical discussion is allowed and what form to actually produce something worthwhile. do I use something like Pixar's model of group discussion or something else.

My major point here is that racetams tend to help group interaction, and since group and team interaction is a major force these days in solving problems that individuals can't crack, perhaps they have a place.

Posted by: Gamma Waves Jul 21, 2012, 04:16 PM

QUOTE(mban @ Feb 28, 2012, 05:38 PM) *

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov/pubmed/2641481

sciencedirect dot com /science/article/pii/S0167876099000446

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov /pubmed/8787170

sciencedirect dot com/science/article/pii/001346949390007I



Notice also that no studies that I am aware of have demonstrated significant increases in cognitive ability, apart from slight increases in verbal fluency, on the first day of testing for young/healthy subjects. For me to spend my money on this substance as a cognitive enhancer, I would need specific proof of increased cognitive ability tested from all domains OR that it allows for increased duration of mental effort at a high capacity.


Mban



Many of the studies are meaningless as they do not test what's important and/or the tests are set up wrong with biases.

If you want to know what works, even if it's destructive, look into what various students, writers, and artists have used and why. Adderall and various ADD and ADHD drugs are the study drugs of choice on campuses today. They are used for "cramming" and all-nighters, so students can pass tests with good grades, and get papers finished on time. Amphetamines of all kinds push the dopamine system, and that speeds up working memory, analytical connections, and allows tons of detailed work to get done on what would ordinarily be boring areas. Attention and attention span is the important equation here, and not general increased cognitive ability.

The question is can noots do some of this over longer periods of time with actual interesting material, rather than assigned garbage that one is short-terming for the grades and teacher? And without the negative results of amphetamines. If so maybe there are tradeoffs and you would need different noots for different results.

What's worth learning is a primary issue over whether or not noots work. Or noots work for what, boring college studies? People will keep taking amphetamines for that to get an edge.

Many noots are medium to long term in helping and not like the above quick fix. Lion's Mane and other NGF or NBGF enhancers take many weeks and often months to have an increased cognitive ability effects, so testing for reusts short term is pretty silly. There are substances that give some of the abilities of amphetamines without the strong destructive features of amphetamines, but even they take a week or two to kick in, therefore not a "cramming" solution.

Posted by: Tone Jul 21, 2012, 04:28 PM

QUOTE(Jakare @ Jul 20, 2012, 06:33 AM) *

QUOTE(alisha99 @ Jul 20, 2012, 11:08 AM) *

My stack:

Piracetam- 800mg one time or twice in a day.
Deprenyl- 15mg to 30mg per day.

That is well inside the MAO-A Inhibition area (everything above 10-15mg/day)!!!
What if you get a cheesy snack and before realizing you have eaten half the bag or drank a glass of wine??? Such mistakes can happen specially when you are so busy feeling great and fixing the world...
I am just worried about you alisha99.


I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.

Posted by: KoolK3n Jul 21, 2012, 09:40 PM

QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:16 PM) *

Amphetamines of all kinds push the dopamine system, and that speeds up working memory, analytical connections, and allows tons of detailed work to get done on what would ordinarily be boring areas. Attention and attention span is the important equation here, and not general increased cognitive ability.


While Adderall can help with cramming (even though that is a terrible excuse), I save it for when I absolutely need it such as important debates or social events. Substitution with Modafinil for studying. Much safer and cheaper alternative.

Posted by: KoolK3n Jul 21, 2012, 09:49 PM

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.

Posted by: Tone Jul 22, 2012, 08:42 AM

QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Jul 22, 2012, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.


Well the easiest example is stablon because it increases specific limbic dopamine in such a way where its used as an antidepressant, yet the other properties of dopamine such as schizoid symptoms or anxiety do not occur. It also selectively lowers serotonin in such a way that low serotonin negative symptoms dont seem to be created, rather only the removal of excess serotonin negative symptoms occurs.

While Stablon is the simplest and easiest example of high selectivity, there are many others. Opioids seem to selectively inhibit a GABA pathway that attenuated limbic dopamine, rather than inhibit GABA in such a way as to create seizures or panic attacks.

an MAOI disables the mechanism by which monoamine transmitters, the Catecholamines + Serotonin are metabolized, therefore we would call this a rather un-selective drug that turns the overall volume up

Posted by: Tone Jul 22, 2012, 08:47 AM

QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Jul 22, 2012, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.



Perhaps you can see if Ritalin works for you as it is better from the brain-health than Amps. Why is this? because its more of a re-uptake inhibitor than a release-forcer. Releasers tend to increase oxidation more than a reuptake inhibitor, as a general tendency.

Posted by: Gamma Waves Jul 22, 2012, 04:43 PM


Tone,

I ordered some Stablon from your recommendations. I have tons of things to learn, but not college and not business. It has not arrived yet. I'd really like to see if this stuff works for me.

Noots such as Aniracetam do sharpen my attention somewhat, but I'm curious about something that may help me stay on track with creative focus and put a lot of material together. I'm literally reading about a full book a day of fairly hard material (it requires reflection to get it down). Plus I'm still working 40 hours per week, and sometimes more.

So far just the intent to do what I want to do, and meditation have the best results. Oh, along with sleep and physical exercise of course. Noots are a help, but secondary.

I do get a bit down when I can't accomplish everything I need to do.

Posted by: mban Jul 22, 2012, 10:51 PM

QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 21, 2012, 06:16 PM) *

If you want to know what works, even if it's destructive, look into what various students, writers, and artists have used and why. Adderall and various ADD and ADHD drugs are the study drugs of choice on campuses today. They are used for "cramming" and all-nighters, so students can pass tests with good grades, and get papers finished on time. Amphetamines of all kinds push the dopamine system, and that speeds up working memory, analytical connections, and allows tons of detailed work to get done on what would ordinarily be boring areas. Attention and attention span is the important equation here, and not general increased cognitive ability.

The question is can noots do some of this over longer periods of time with actual interesting material, rather than assigned garbage that one is short-terming for the grades and teacher? And without the negative results of amphetamines. If so maybe there are tradeoffs and you would need different noots for different results.

What's worth learning is a primary issue over whether or not noots work. Or noots work for what, boring college studies? People will keep taking amphetamines for that to get an edge.

Many noots are medium to long term in helping and not like the above quick fix. Lion's Mane and other NGF or NBGF enhancers take many weeks and often months to have an increased cognitive ability effects, so testing for reusts short term is pretty silly. There are substances that give some of the abilities of amphetamines without the strong destructive features of amphetamines, but even they take a week or two to kick in, therefore not a "cramming" solution.


You misunderstand me: I do NOT want to help people buy things that will help them cram for a test. I agree with your comment that it is much better to invest money in supplements that increase NGF, BDNF, etc. that will increase cognitive ability over the long term and are not quick fixes.

What I was saying previously was that the racetams simply haven't been shown to increase analytical/reasoning skills, yet thousands of students still take them in huge quantities without knowing their mechanism of action in the CNS. Notice that the original poster is an engineering student and therefore analytical reasoning will be highly essential along his path. I was simply cautioning against taking the large combo's of racetams that many on these boards suggest as they most likely won't help him achieve his end goals.

Better to spend the money on good organic foods/greens, general health supplements (e.g. Coenzyme Q10), exercise (gym membership?), and on other things essential to a healthy lifestyle.

QUOTE

Many of the studies are meaningless as they do not test what's important and/or the tests are set up wrong with biases.

What do you define as important in a study that is looking at electrophysiology/EEG data before and after treatment?

Posted by: KoolK3n Jul 23, 2012, 06:04 AM

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 22, 2012, 11:47 AM) *

Perhaps you can see if Ritalin works for you as it is better from the brain-health than Amps. Why is this? because its more of a re-uptake inhibitor than a release-forcer. Releasers tend to increase oxidation more than a reuptake inhibitor, as a general tendency.


I will be experimenting with methylphenidates in the coming months. Yes, from a brain-health perspective, MPHs are a safer alternative. I cannot say the same about the results though. Actually, coadministration with MPHs may attenuate some of the damage of AMPHs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701286/
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/304/3/1181.abstract

Wanna try Sulbutiamine before though.

Posted by: KoolK3n Jul 23, 2012, 06:06 AM

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 22, 2012, 11:42 AM) *

QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Jul 22, 2012, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.


Well the easiest example is stablon because it increases specific limbic dopamine in such a way where its used as an antidepressant, yet the other properties of dopamine such as schizoid symptoms or anxiety do not occur. It also selectively lowers serotonin in such a way that low serotonin negative symptoms dont seem to be created, rather only the removal of excess serotonin negative symptoms occurs.

While Stablon is the simplest and easiest example of high selectivity, there are many others. Opioids seem to selectively inhibit a GABA pathway that attenuated limbic dopamine, rather than inhibit GABA in such a way as to create seizures or panic attacks.


Besides costs, how come many users discontinue Stablon in less than a month? Many report a return in their previous symptoms such as anxiety, depression, etc.

Posted by: Tone Jul 23, 2012, 08:26 AM

I dont read the board as much as you do, are you noticing people say they use it only for a month or something? My guess would be because its costly and takes long to get, and because it gives a person a break from stress, like vacations do, and it doesn't tend to cause withdrawal, so people don't mind going on a temporary course of it. Thats a guess.

Posted by: casa861 Jul 23, 2012, 09:29 AM

Hi, thank you to all of these conversations, now, I think I've settled on a nootropic with no side effects and safe efficacy.Io thought of a stack containing:
morning:
5 g creatine buffered (every day)
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
choline bitrartato 1 g (every day)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
afternoon:
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
evening:
lion mane 500 mg
While in use Saturday and Sunday:
Piracetam 5 grams morning and evening
500 mg of lion mane morning and evening
choline bitrartato 1 g.1 time per day.
You, what do you think? Also, for you, follow a similar regime for a long time, is secure? Thank you all in advance.

Posted by: Gamma Waves Jul 23, 2012, 10:42 AM

mban,

I've been reading a number of books on brain science lately, and they are popular books, so likely to be oversimplified to reach broad audiences. That is exactly what I need though is a broad overview of many related or semi-related fields to create perspectives I'm looking into for my own interests and for interesting discussions.

To use an example: "A Technique for Producing Ideas" is a booklet authored by an Ad man of the 1940's and 50's. What could he possibly have to say about the new brain science and study of cognition? If you look at it from the old model that you get your 10,000 to 20,000 hours of concentrated study under good to great mentors to develop you into your tight nitch, not very much. Yet these Advertising Men and Market People were striking examples of people who could mine the most banal subjects and come up with sometimes fantastic ideas to sell everyday products.

His idea about idea people is that good idea people have a powerful interest in everything, they are extremely well read, and they actually care about the diverse material they read. These people had and have a search light conscious that absorbs vast terrain, and they do it over a lifetime. This search light consciousness has been called, "Klondike Roving," by a Harvard professor, David Perkins, whose speciality is learning, and learning about learning, and learning about teaching. He has a strong interest in breakthrough thinking. What David did not know when he wrote his books on breakthrough thinking was that in the late 1990's and early 2000's brain science has become more and more interested in his Education area and how it could be tested through brain science.

There are these questions called "insight puzzles" that throw various non-sequential curve balls at solvers and are often difficult to solve by completely logical people. People who solve these problems have been hooked up to various EEG and even MRI devices and the brain waves that come before the solutions are in several parts: First, a relaxed alpha wave pattern that could be metaphored as relaxed searching (as different from the beta wave direct problem solving of sequential thinking), Second, there is a very brief, but obvious fraction of a second burst of Gamma Waves from the aSTG a short time before (from a second or two up to eight seconds) that the puzzle solver reaches an Aha! moment and solves the puzzle, Third, the puzzle solver goes back to alpha or even beta waves in the brain.

My point is not an attack on you. You have excellent information. I'm just trying to illustrate a wider story. I'm interested in the possibility of fertile discussions that go beyond mere arguing/debate/winning. Team knowledge and group discussions of a fecund nature are the new order.

As far as direct problem solving goes, as in a logical approach, I have only issues that it is not complete, especially today. I like logic and have gone over a graduate level course in symbolic logic in the past, but I'm aware of limitations, and use other models when logic gets underfoot. Today many of the knottist chemisty problems that have been around for years end up getting solved by physics people or biochemists, and that's where it's going -- people solving problems outside their own worlds and professional areas, by people involved with similar yet different disiplines. On the other hand, I have run into some cool books lately on direct logical problem solving, and I wish I knew about them before, but enough for now.

I didn't answer your questions direct. I felt that you were not suggesting cheap solutions, I was just putting out here what is actually going on too often on campuses. Looking for new territories in brain wave research is a Klondike Roving Search to find intellectual gold. More to say later.

Posted by: KoolK3n Jul 23, 2012, 11:19 AM

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 23, 2012, 11:26 AM) *

I dont read the board as much as you do, are you noticing people say they use it only for a month or something? My guess would be because its costly and takes long to get, and because it gives a person a break from stress, like vacations do, and it doesn't tend to cause withdrawal, so people don't mind going on a temporary course of it. Thats a guess.


http://www.pharmacyreviewer.com/forum/escaping-depression-all-about-antidepressant-medicines/18174-stablon-tianeptine-experiences.html
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/stablon-tianeptine-60757/index2.html

I retract stating that I would use it recreationally. Will probably instead cycle. But even then I'm not sure. Costs are just too high.

Posted by: Tone Jul 23, 2012, 01:43 PM

I feel bad all of the time since my birth, unless I take some Stablon, then it wears off in 1 hour. Right now at this current moment, I would describe my state as strong dysphoric drowsiness where moving is very difficult.

Posted by: Gamma Waves Jul 23, 2012, 04:26 PM

QUOTE(casa861 @ Jul 23, 2012, 12:29 PM) *

Hi, thank you to all of these conversations, now, I think I've settled on a nootropic with no side effects and safe efficacy.Io thought of a stack containing:
morning:
5 g creatine buffered (every day)
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
choline bitrartato 1 g (every day)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
afternoon:
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
evening:
lion mane 500 mg
While in use Saturday and Sunday:
Piracetam 5 grams morning and evening
500 mg of lion mane morning and evening
choline bitrartato 1 g.1 time per day.
You, what do you think? Also, for you, follow a similar regime for a long time, is secure? Thank you all in advance.


Casa,

I just reread your OP and at 230 pounds it's likely you are a guy so, here is an idea.

There is a very mild steroid called AndroDrive that enhances mental sharpness quite a lot. It helps with problem solving type detailed work such as college courses. It gves drive with clear mental focus. this stuff will not hurt liver, kidneys, or heart like the harsh stuff. It's a slightly altered DHEA with pregnenolone formula with an enhancing or potentiating carrier. I used this once when I needed to improve some analytic skills. One bottle last 8 weeks, but it's a bit pricey at $80 + $5 shipping. You can probably use this up to 10 - 12 weeks at 3 pills per day taklen all at once. It takes 3-4 days to really kick in, but then has many of the benifits of strong stims without a burnout effect. About 4 per day is most one should take if using as a noot. It will help to lose weight while actually building a small amount of strength and muscle. It's a mild recomp steroid, so it isn't like the strong stuff and will not pile on muscle. There is probably more people that use it for it's concentration, noot abilities than the weight loss and muscle building side. One bottle at 3 per day lasts 8 weeks, and that's all I needed, but you could try adding extra pregnenolone at 25 mg to give it a boost (I didn't need a boost).

It does have some minor masculinizing effects, so taboo for women. I don't have any connection with the company that sells this, otherwise than one test cycle that worked well for me.

Posted by: mban Jul 23, 2012, 05:05 PM

QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 23, 2012, 06:26 PM) *

Casa,

I cannot tell whether you are male or female. It does make a difference for the recommendation I'm going to suggest. There is a very mild steroid called AndroDrive that enhances mental sharpness quite a lot. It helps with problem solving type detailed work such as college courses. It gves drive with clear mental focus. this stuff will not hurt liver, kidneys, or heart like the harsh stuff. It's a slightly altered DHEA with pregnenolone formula with an enhancing or potentiating carrier. I used this once when I needed to improve some analytic skills. One bottle last 8 weeks, but it's a bit pricey at $80 + $5 shipping. You can probably use this up to 10 - 12 weeks at 3 pills per day taklen all at once. It takes 3-4 days to really kick in, but then has many of the benifits of strong stims without a burnout effect. About 4 per day is most one should take if using as a noot. It will help to lose weight while actually building a small amount of strength and muscle. It's a mild recomp steroid, so it isn't like the strong stuff and will not pile on muscle. There is probably more people that use it for it's concentration, noot abilities than the weight loss and muscle building side. One bottle at 3 per day lasts 8 weeks, and that's all I needed, but you could try adding extra pregnenolone at 25 mg to give it a boost (I didn't need a boost).

It does have some minor masculinizing effects, so taboo for women. I don't have any connection with the company that sells this, otherwise than one test cycle that worked well for me.


I would not suggest using an androgenic product like that for any period of time. You will screw with your body's endocrine system. At 25 years old, casa is definitely not in a position where he will be producing suboptimal amounts of DHEA or pregnenolone. AndroDrive contains massive doses of both. There is no need to supplement with this product. I guess you could take it if you want massive acne, testosterone rage, irritability and insomnia...

Seeing as Androdrive already contains 51mg of a high absorption form of pregnenolone (Super-5-PREG™ (3-beta-enanthoyloxy-5-en-20-one)), it would be ridiculous to try to add another 25mg of pregnenolone on top of it.

Posted by: KoolK3n Jul 23, 2012, 05:16 PM

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 23, 2012, 04:43 PM) *

I feel bad all of the time since my birth, unless I take some Stablon, then it wears off in 1 hour. Right now at this current moment, I would describe my state as strong dysphoric drowsiness where moving is very difficult.


Could that possibly hint at another medical condition? Have you seen a specialist?

Posted by: Gamma Waves Jul 24, 2012, 03:11 AM

QUOTE(mban @ Jul 23, 2012, 08:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 23, 2012, 06:26 PM) *

Casa,

I cannot tell whether you are male or female. It does make a difference for the recommendation I'm going to suggest. There is a very mild steroid called AndroDrive that enhances mental sharpness quite a lot. It helps with problem solving type detailed work such as college courses. It gves drive with clear mental focus. this stuff will not hurt liver, kidneys, or heart like the harsh stuff. It's a slightly altered DHEA with pregnenolone formula with an enhancing or potentiating carrier. I used this once when I needed to improve some analytic skills. One bottle last 8 weeks, but it's a bit pricey at $80 + $5 shipping. You can probably use this up to 10 - 12 weeks at 3 pills per day taklen all at once. It takes 3-4 days to really kick in, but then has many of the benifits of strong stims without a burnout effect. About 4 per day is most one should take if using as a noot. It will help to lose weight while actually building a small amount of strength and muscle. It's a mild recomp steroid, so it isn't like the strong stuff and will not pile on muscle. There is probably more people that use it for it's concentration, noot abilities than the weight loss and muscle building side. One bottle at 3 per day lasts 8 weeks, and that's all I needed, but you could try adding extra pregnenolone at 25 mg to give it a boost (I didn't need a boost).

It does have some minor masculinizing effects, so taboo for women. I don't have any connection with the company that sells this, otherwise than one test cycle that worked well for me.


I would not suggest using an androgenic product like that for any period of time. You will screw with your body's endocrine system. At 25 years old, casa is definitely not in a position where he will be producing suboptimal amounts of DHEA or pregnenolone. AndroDrive contains massive doses of both. There is no need to supplement with this product. I guess you could take it if you want massive acne, testosterone rage, irritability and insomnia...

Seeing as Androdrive already contains 51mg of a high absorption form of pregnenolone (Super-5-PREG™ (3-beta-enanthoyloxy-5-en-20-one)), it would be ridiculous to try to add another 25mg of pregnenolone on top of it.


mban,

I posted to casa for two reasons: first I believe my advice was the best real world advice for him to do well in school, and second, I wanted to see if you would jump all over it and attack, and you did not disappoint. You are predictable, and that is disappointing, as there was an off chance you would be wiser. Yet I did want to see where you are at, and I was intending to not post on this forum again until I ran into the intelligence suggested by the early part of your posting to casa. I was hoping you might have an open mind with real world knowledge. You see, in the real college world, right now, today, nearly 20% of the students at the larger universities and colleges admit to using various ADD and Narcolepsy drugs when they seriously need to get things done. That's the ones who admit using them! Pressure to perform. I start with this assumption and that those drugs really are dangerous, and that few of those students are going to acknowledge the degree of usage. You come on here and do have some good advice, but attack racetams because they make the brain less efficient at problem solving, and you are sort of, kind of, correct, but it's not the full story. You leave someone like casa no real answers, so what is he likely to do during crunch time when big papers are due, or when finals are coming. Maybe he knows this guy with an ADD drug or a narcolepsy drug scripts, that doesn't use them all himself, and for a few bucks...... well that's the real world.

I was leaving before you arrived, and now that has not changed. Bye

You should stick around. I think you'll fit in well with this board. Have fun!

Posted by: casa861 Jul 25, 2012, 11:07 AM

Gamma waves I thank for his contribution, I am a male of 26 years now.
I also have about twenty kilograms of loss.I want get your opinion on androdrive,how you wrote that you have taken.
I am able to take it, but first I want to ask you questions:
How significantly increases memory? Examples?
As it increases concentration and learning ability?
How long before you experience these benefits?
But yeah, you're right I want to take drugs that I do in a short time effect, because of time issues .I have problems with the university and the only way to solve my problems and to have a substance or substances that do almost the miracle ......
I'm in trouble with the university .... :-(
I tried doing a search for book reviews on the web, dell'androdrive v3 but in the reviews I've read in the comments I have not noticed people talking about powerful effects on cognitive ..... I would not want to end the only person feel these effects has been to you .......??
Forgive me in advance if I question your good faith is that I will not make mistakes.
p.s. But my card do you think that is dangerous or useless?
thanks in advance

Posted by: Gamma Waves Jul 26, 2012, 05:51 AM

QUOTE(casa861 @ Jul 25, 2012, 02:07 PM) *

Gamma waves I thank for his contribution, I am a male of 26 years now.
I also have about twenty kilograms of loss.I want get your opinion on androdrive,how you wrote that you have taken.
I am able to take it, but first I want to ask you questions:
How significantly increases memory? Examples?
As it increases concentration and learning ability?
How long before you experience these benefits?
But yeah, you're right I want to take drugs that I do in a short time effect, because of time issues .I have problems with the university and the only way to solve my problems and to have a substance or substances that do almost the miracle ......
I'm in trouble with the university .... :-(
I tried doing a search for book reviews on the web, dell'androdrive v3 but in the reviews I've read in the comments I have not noticed people talking about powerful effects on cognitive ..... I would not want to end the only person feel these effects has been to you .......??
Forgive me in advance if I question your good faith is that I will not make mistakes.
p.s. But my card do you think that is dangerous or useless?
thanks in advance


casa,

First, my decisions to try something like AD were based on forum discussions with people I'd known for several years, and I felt they were good observers and had integrity in what they reported. I had observed how accurate the information I had received from these people over time. I used AD to learn computer related analytical stuff that does not really have strong interest for me, but I needed to learn new information to retain a job. This is like school is for most people, learning information that is not exciting to get results that are needed for success. I used it for 8 weeks than quit as I had achieved my goals. That was months ago.

So my information as to the safety of AD came from a number of people that I'd learned to trust for accurate information time after time. You don't know those people and have no long-term past with me. The DHEA in AD has been made so that it moves out of the body toward the later part of every day, and it allows your body to normalize itself every day. That's why it is to be taken only once per day, so the body can recover toward the end of each day. There are hardly any traces of use in the blood after just 2.5 to 3 days after you stop using it. I am into working out hard for years, but this is the only steriod I've ever used, and I would never touch most of that stuff with a long pole as people say. I will probably only use AD about once per year.

Second, AD is not that important to me, as I ordinarily use racetams like Aniracetam to do what I want. What I usually want is more of an overview or insight perspective of everything. This takes longer, and is not efficient, but is much more fun and interesting approach to learning. I have to be really interested in the subjects in order to use the racetam approach. Adding stuff like lion's mane and some of the other support supplements that nban recommended is an excellent idea.

Even if you decide to use something like AD, you can only use it for maximum of one semester. After that you should stay away for at least four months. So if you use it, the next semester you woud have to use something else. It is my experience that it works pretty well for learning material that ordinarily half bores me, but that I have to learn for success. It improves focus and attention or Drive and if you improve those you get improved medium term memory for passing tests or doing long papers. The increased concentration starts on the first day but does not reach full strength of several days, so it's not like amphetamines which hit you fully within a half hour. There is no Hollywood drug like NZT or the fictional drug in the movie "Limitless."

You don't have the same circle of discussion group or forum group people that I know. The best I can tell you is to go out on Primordial Performance or the website that has the stuff and lurk for a while on their discussion groups, then sign up and ask questions about the noot qualities of AD. AD has it's own discussion threads. Most of the people on that site though will talk about it's weight loss while retaining muscle and strength abilities, and how safe it is compared to most steriods, and they stack it with stronger stuff to get fairly quick weight loss. AD is a very, very mild steroid, and some hardcore muscleheads almost laugh at it, and suggest it's not really a true steroid. I learned about it from other forums, and only used the info on PP as a backup, as it is hard to trust info from a forum attached to people who sell a product.

If you are worried about negative side effects, JUST DON'T GO THERE, and take the long-term approach with racetams and backup supplements that produce more NGF and NBGF. Take time and figure out what you are truly interested in and work slowly at learning it with wide, very wide searches in all of the related fields to your main interests. If you are woried about the side effects of AD, you should be even a dozen times more woried about the side effects of the amphetamines, ADD, and narcolepsy drugs used to get work done, as they all have extremely negative effects.

I want to say something else. University studies overwhelm many, many students. If you find that you can't make it through this time it doesn't mean you are not a good learner. Even if you are successful this time make a list of all the things you are really interested in doing as well as studying. What attracts you? Move toward your interests and passions to catch fire. That's a bit of a cliche, but it's true. You don't have to know who you are, but you do have to have some idea of what really sparks your attention.

I wish you the best. I only came back to answer your questions. BTW, I'm learning Spanish. I have plenty of people to practice with now, and don't want to miss this opportunity.

Good will to you casa!

Posted by: deeptrancenow Aug 09, 2012, 05:43 AM

QUOTE(alisha99 @ Jul 20, 2012, 01:08 AM) *

My stack:

Piracetam- 800mg one time or twice in a day.
Deprenyl- 15mg to 30mg per day.


Wow! I've been taking 5 mg of Deprenyl a day, and on extremely rare occasions 10 mg and I'm curious how much different do you feel when you take 30 mg per day - and do you take 15 - 30 mg every day - at once or in divided doses?


Posted by: deeptrancenow Aug 09, 2012, 05:58 AM

I like Deprenyl - I take only 5 mg a day - and not every day.

I took occasionally Piracetam and tried Oxyracetam, and feel perhaps the most noticeable difference with Pramiracetam.

Years ago I was taking a stack with Piracetam, Lucidril and Hydergine, but these days tend to take a selection of supplements already mixed together in a formula like Higher Mind by Source Naturals. That one contains Gotu Kola, Gingko, Bacopa, DMAE, Acetyl L-Carnitine, Phosphatidylserine, Eleuthero, Vinpocetine, Huperzine and whole host of other ingredients including some that I find quite relaxing like GABA, Ashwagandha, and Magnesium.

I have started to experiment with Huperzine relatively recently and what I've noticed the most from the Higher Mind formula and from Huperzine is way better recall.

There is another combination that I very much like Choline Cocktail II which works quite energizing effect.

I do also take Rhodiola and TMG or SAMe, CoQ10 and other antioxidants.

And just few days ago I started to experiment with Jarrow's Alpha GPC and am still deciding what effect that has.

Posted by: Neuroshark Aug 18, 2012, 12:25 PM

QUOTE(casa861 @ Jan 17, 2012, 07:29 AM) *

Hi, I wanted to ask you if you do not mind, if you could recommend a good nootropic stack?
My situation is this:
I'm 25 years old, tall 175 cm and weight 100 Kg (230pound),I'm an engineering student.
I need a stack that would make me give my best in terms of concentration, memory, intelligence etc.
During this time I will have to face many tests, and most likely will go to a nervous breakdown and I'll be in a state of anxiety.
Half of these tests are mostly based on knowledge, while the other half of the more complex problem solving.
I state that I have already used the piracetam (2400 mg daily) and choline bitrate (700mg).
You could list a stack perfect for my problem?
Thank you for your time.



Epiphany D1 is a new nootropic stack offered by Cerebral Health. It contains both Aniracetam and Oxiracetam. I've used this stack for a while and can't enough of it. Many others have had the same result. The added Piracetam in your regimen should make for a great stack my friend. I believe Cerebral Health may be carrying Piracetam Capsules again in the near future. I also heard something about Pramiracetam coming back as well.

Hope this helps.

Posted by: RealKore Aug 31, 2012, 08:15 PM

Thanks for all the great information in this thread. I take oxiracetam and a lot of supplements, confirms I am on the right track for dealing with ADHD while studying. Some of you have mentioned anxiety, and being overwhelmed while studying. Whether you have ADHD or not, E-EPA can help with these, and many other health conditions. E-EPA is processed from fish oil to remove DHA and impurities and has an ethyl ester molecule added so can cross blood brain barrier easily. DHA is removed as it competes with EPA for absorption, and DHA can be stored in the body while EPA isn't and needs to be replenished regularly. Extra EPA is used in all mood disorders so can quickly become depleted. I take E-EPA and it has been fantastic for dealing with anxiety, I feel calm and can focus in situations where I would previously have been unable to function with anxiety or being overwhelmed. If my body needs extra EPA above the amount I regularly take, I take extra E-EPA, it's only fish oil. There is good info and references to studies on E-EPA at Vegepa dot com website. A cheaper product is Dr Toleron's E-EPA available online from many sellers.

Posted by: erick Sep 02, 2012, 07:17 AM

Guys, just don't forget to intake some source of antioxidants for the brain.
I was reading somewhere else about how important it is to get better results with stacks that use racetams or another nootropics.
By myself, I start to take vitamin C, E, B12 beyond a few other complements. Green tea is a good choice as well
Just saying. wink.gif

Posted by: Jessica T Oct 25, 2012, 06:27 AM

The only racetams I have used are Piracetam and Phenibut occasionally. I've heard some really good things about Noopept, a new racetam nootropic thats supposed to be 1000x more potent than Piracetam. I havent found any dangers yet. Anyone tried it? Was thinking about grabing some from http://advancenootropics.com

Posted by: Georgeuk Nov 03, 2012, 04:59 AM

QUOTE(mban @ Feb 28, 2012, 10:38 PM) *

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov/pubmed/2641481

sciencedirect dot com /science/article/pii/S0167876099000446

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov /pubmed/8787170

sciencedirect dot com/science/article/pii/001346949390007I


My analysis was that piracetam decreases global complexity, thereby promoting an "alert, but relaxed" state which is consistent with the boost in alpha frequencies. That being said, a shift towards this state would be beneficial to those who have abnormal brain synchronization, such as those with schizophrenia, ADHD, dyslexia, or with advanced aging. Piracetam seems to interact with cell membranes causing changes in membrane fluidity, as well as changes in the receptor proportions found in cell membranes, which is beneficial to those who require it.

The brain is a complex organ which requires not only alpha or beta wave synchronization between neuronal subunits, but requires the correct combination of theta, alpha, beta, and omega frequency oscillations in order to function optimally and allow for the "binding" of information into a coherent whole. As stated above, the increase in alpha waves and decrease in global complexity associated with piracetam usage is perfectly fine for moreso automatic tasks that require concentration and accuracy when repeated consecutively, but I would not personally take it when I am required to do my best work. Notice that I am targeting the usage of piracetam to my own situation (being young), and therefore the use of piracetam will vary based on age and cognitive status.

Notice also that no studies that I am aware of have demonstrated significant increases in cognitive ability, apart from slight increases in verbal fluency, on the first day of testing for young/healthy subjects. For me to spend my money on this substance as a cognitive enhancer, I would need specific proof of increased cognitive ability tested from all domains OR that it allows for increased duration of mental effort at a high capacity.

All of this being said, piracetam still shows general health benefits, which I am aware of, and shows extremely low toxicity even at high doses, so there is relatively little stopping a person from trying it to see if it benefits them in some way.

If you find an article on general cognitive ability change in healthy/young subjects taking piracetam, point it out to me and I will take a look.

Cheers,

Mban


Hey mban, in this quote you said piracetam may help people with abnormal brain synchronisation, I present a case study early adult male, mild cerebral palsy from birth caused right side hemiplegia .MRI revealed trauma on the left brain consistent with a stroke.

Medical opinion stated the young brain would adapt its pathways of communication to compensate for damage present. Issues with concentration, realising logic in long term situations and other left brain qualities have arisen.
By this time the brain may be hard wired, but could piracetam or other similar supplementally drugs help?

Given medical opinion states they have done everything possible, hence to not write off this case in reference to their physician because that has already been explored.

Posted by: Almighty Nov 03, 2012, 06:32 AM

could someone advise what i need to do my order still has not arrived its now over a month

Posted by: mban Nov 03, 2012, 08:35 AM

QUOTE(Georgeuk @ Nov 03, 2012, 06:59 AM) *

Hey mban, in this quote you said piracetam may help people with abnormal brain synchronisation, I present a case study early adult male, mild cerebral palsy from birth caused right side hemiplegia .MRI revealed trauma on the left brain consistent with a stroke.

Medical opinion stated the young brain would adapt its pathways of communication to compensate for damage present. Issues with concentration, realising logic in long term situations and other left brain qualities have arisen.
By this time the brain may be hard wired, but could piracetam or other similar supplementally drugs help?

Given medical opinion states they have done everything possible, hence to not write off this case in reference to their physician because that has already been explored.


Hi Georgeuk,

Stroke is a tough one as there is currently no specific therapeutics that can repair the necrotic brain tissue within the "core" area of cells damaged by stroke. The best that you can do at this point is promote compensatory behaviors and thought patterns which may aid in restructuring the remaining brain tissue to a certain degree.

The first things that you should assure is that the individual follows a proper and healthy diet, and may benefit from a good all purpose multivitamin. If you are having trouble fitting green foods into the picture, you may want to look into buying up to a kilogram of Chlorella (found on iHerb), which I personally mix a teaspoon with water to drink everyday.

Further, if the individual has difficulty with getting to sleep or staying asleep during the night, you may want to invest in 300-600mcg (0.3-0.6mg) extended release melatonin tablets that they would take one hour prior to going to bed.

Finally, one of the most important things for helping with plasticity is exercise that is vigorous enough to cause sweating for at least 20-30 mins each day.

As far as supplements go, no supplement will replace lost brain tissue. Researchers are currently looking into using stem cells to replace lost tissue, but that is still a long ways off. Right now, supplements to promote plasticity and proper function of the remaining brain tissue include Omega 3 oils, CoQ10, acetyl-L-carnitine, a choline source (e.g. citicoline), taurine and some general antioxidants, such as astaxanthin and alpha-lipoic-acid. You may also consider low dose lithium orotate to help with neuronal survival of remaining brain tissue as well as to promote a calm, stable mood. 10-20mg of elemental lithium from lithium orotate should be plenty (typical psychiatric doses of lithium are greater than 300mg, but that high of a dose is unnecessary if there is no mood disorder). Tablets of lithium orotate that you can get from places like iHerb, Swanson, etc. will have ~5mg of elemental lithium per tablet, so 2-4 tablets per day is plenty. As always, make sure to consult a doctor if taking any other medications at the same time as using any of these supplements.

Piracetam could help with some aspects of cognition due to its effect on cell membrane fluidity, but don't expect too much from it; alot of the self-reports that you read on it are placebo effect.

Let me know if you have any more questions,

Mban


Posted by: Georgeuk Nov 03, 2012, 10:01 AM

QUOTE(mban @ Nov 03, 2012, 04:35 PM) *


Piracetam could help with some aspects of cognition due to its effect on cell membrane fluidity, but don't expect too much from it; alot of the self-reports that you read on it are placebo effect.

Let me know if you have any more questions,

Mban


Thank you mban for the detailed response :-),
Of course regeneration of damaged brain tissue is not possible, discounting the damaged side now I want to know how to make the brain matter available more efficient hence counteracting the effect of the damaged tissue, could a method of promoting beta brain wave activity improve efficiency? In relation to your first post.
This method would directly oppose the use of piracetam because as you pointed out piracetam promotes alpha brain waves, the brain state cats are always in XD

I can see our conclusions becoming increasingly convoluted, exaserbated by the placebo effect which I am very conscious of when reading human experiences on medical subjects and experiences.

Also, to be clear the case study has no personality, sleeping, mood or any other disorders and despite the hemiplegia does exercise as described

Posted by: mban Nov 03, 2012, 11:17 AM

QUOTE(Georgeuk @ Nov 03, 2012, 12:01 PM) *

I want to know how to make the brain matter available more efficient hence counteracting the effect of the damaged tissue, could a method of promoting beta brain wave activity improve efficiency? In relation to your first post.
This method would directly oppose the use of piracetam because as you pointed out piracetam promotes alpha brain waves, the brain state cats are always in XD

I can see our conclusions becoming increasingly convoluted, exaserbated by the placebo effect which I am very conscious of when reading human experiences on medical subjects and experiences.

Also, to be clear the case study has no personality, sleeping, mood or any other disorders and despite the hemiplegia does exercise as described


Promoting beta/high alpha MAY increase the processing efficiency of the remaining tissue, but there are several considerations. The main problem that will be faced is the complexity of adjusting global measures of processing, without causing adverse effects. In my view of why piracetam has shown efficacy in several studies on brain damage is due to the "normalization" of brain activity towards a more uniform state (I.e. a patient who had a stroke may present with cyclical variability in how their neural tissue is processing information, such that at any given moment localized populations of neurons may take on slower, more coordinated activity, thereby promoting an overall theta/delta global brain wave state which is not conducive to logical or efficient thought patterns. At other times, the patient may fluctuate into periods of completely un-coordinated neuronal firing, appearing as noisy alpha/beta frequency oscillation on an EEG, which again is a state which may increase arousal and physical activity, but does not allow for a large degree of concentration or attentional direction). Piracetam is though to promote a shift towards the intermediate alpha frequency oscillations irrespective of starting frequency; such that those with un-coordinated noisy beta oscillations as well as those with slower, drowsy theta/delta oscillations may benefit from a more sustained alpha brain wave pattern when awake. Although this state may not be "optimal", it may be better than the state of high variability/fluctuations.

Therefore, if the case study in question has frequent variability in their brain patterns, indicative of loss of brain area co-ordination and reciprocal connections between neocortex and lower brain structures, then piracetam may help to a small degree in promoting a more uniform brain state and help with concentration and logical thinking. Instead, if reciprocal connections remain between lower brain areas which normally regulate wakefulness and attention, and higher neocortical neuronal "units" or "groups", then promotion of efficient beta/gamma oscillatory behavior is preferred.

If it is unknown which of these is the case, a course of action could be to try cycling the piracetam on and off. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, and note any behavioral/cognitive changes during the on period vs. the off period. If you wanted to promote higher frequency beta or gamma oscillations, I would suggest using low dose choline precursors (e.g. citicoline), which may augment cholinergic pathways involved in wakefulness and concentration.

Of course, all of this is a gross oversimplification of the millions of signalling molecule, receptor, structural, and cellular changes that occur as a result of stroke/cerebral palsy. To provide excellent treatment for each particular case and maximize compensatory potential the medical community would have to know the specific changes that have occurred in each particular patient and formulate a treatment plan specific to that patient (which is too costly at this point for the medical system).

Posted by: Georgeuk Nov 03, 2012, 04:57 PM

QUOTE(mban @ Nov 03, 2012, 07:17 PM) *


Of course, all of this is a gross oversimplification of the millions of signalling molecule, receptor, structural, and cellular changes that occur as a result of stroke/cerebral palsy. To provide excellent treatment for each particular case and maximize compensatory potential the medical community would have to know the specific changes that have occurred in each particular patient and formulate a treatment plan specific to that patient (which is too costly at this point for the medical system).


I have found that when discussing biology or medical scenarios, oversimplification is an almost unavoidable occurrence purely because of the nature of the problems that are presented and the detail needed for a full thorough explanation would consume a lifetime to achieve perfection in exact explanation.

Nevertheless you have explained your points effectively and allowed for at least basic comprehension, even with it being a gross oversimplification. Thank you very much mban although I think it would be difficult to arrange an appointment with a neurologist let alone requesting to have an EEG or follow up MRI done, for obvious reasons. Any advice on how to medically justify these tests would be greatly appreciated.

Posted by: crazyAndroid Dec 11, 2012, 01:03 PM

QUOTE(mban @ Jan 28, 2012, 11:43 AM) *

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate (ALCA) - Much of the same purpose as ALCAR, but the additional arginate enables the molecule to interact directly with the NGF receptors which ALCAR increased. - take 100-200mg per day, in 2 separate doses
G) Lion's Mane mushroom - Has a host of benefits including immune system boosting effects. Main effect you are looking for is its ability to stimulate NGF receptors. - Take 2-3 grams per day, in 2-3 divided doses. Cheapest source of this is "fungihealth dot com/affiliate/450", but the bulk 1 lb powder (yes this is an affiliate link, if you don't want to support me at all you can just remove the affiliate portion of the link). Lion's mane can also be purchased from iherb and some other sources on the internet. You want to make sure that the source you buy from uses extracted mycelium, and not only the fruiting body of the mushroom, as the myecilium contains the most active NGF boosting molecules (erinacines).
H) Choline citrate/bitartrate/Alpha-GPC/Etc. - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
I) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
J) Gotu Kola, Rhodiola Rosea, Eleuthero, Brahmi - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Gotu Kola - 100mg, Rhodiola Rosea - 50mg, Eleuthero - 100mg, Brahmi - 100mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
K) (Optional) Resveratrol - Increases the number and function of mitochondria within neural cells, helping with metabolic health and increasing levels of ATP. This one is also seen as an anti-aging aid as it increases expression of genes associated with long life (I won't get too much into that here). Take between 50-500mg (based on how much money you have to spend) in 2 divided doses.
L) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five 1g capsules per day.


Has anyone tried out this stack, I am tempted to buy these ingredients, but I come to close to 400$ (most of the quantities should last for almost a year though).
I like your explanations, although the mechanism of action for most of these substances may still be highly debatable. I'm new to nootropics, and I am wondering about those stacks containing dozens of substances. How do you know that some of them are not just placebos (did you try out the stack by eliminating one of the components for a while and noticed a difference?), or maybe some of them have reduntant actions and one of them could be replaced by a higher dose of the cheaper substance etc...
It seems to me that inevitably a lot of voodoo science is going on here.

Posted by: mban Dec 11, 2012, 02:08 PM

QUOTE(crazyAndroid @ Dec 11, 2012, 03:03 PM) *

Has anyone tried out this stack, I am tempted to buy these ingredients, but I come to close to 400$ (most of the quantities should last for almost a year though).
I like your explanations, although the mechanism of action for most of these substances may still be highly debatable. I'm new to nootropics, and I am wondering about those stacks containing dozens of substances. How do you know that some of them are not just placebos (did you try out the stack by eliminating one of the components for a while and noticed a difference?), or maybe some of them have reduntant actions and one of them could be replaced by a higher dose of the cheaper substance etc...
It seems to me that inevitably a lot of voodoo science is going on here.


Hey CrazyAndroid,

You are 100% right. I structured this stack as being moreso directed towards individuals such as myself, who have a good amount of expendable income to use on supplements.

If you are looking for purely nootropic benefits, many elements of that stack will only give very marginal improvements. I.e. a supplement like coenzymeQ and Lion's Mane may each give only 1-2% boosts in energy/motivation/nootropic benefit; many of them combined would be needed to really notice much of an increase in cognitive ability.

If you are trying to save money, I would stick with a very basic stack:
-Multivitamin
-Omega 3 Oil
-Choline (100-300mg per day)
-Acetyl L-Carnitine (300-1000mg per day)
-And when you get very stressed: Rhodiola Rosea (250-750mg per day)

Should be less than $100 per year ($0.27 per day)

And as always, exercise, proper diet, and getting enough sleep are your best nootropics...

-mban

Posted by: crazyAndroid Dec 15, 2012, 08:47 AM

QUOTE(mban @ Dec 11, 2012, 02:08 PM) *

QUOTE(crazyAndroid @ Dec 11, 2012, 03:03 PM) *

Has anyone tried out this stack, I am tempted to buy these ingredients, but I come to close to 400$ (most of the quantities should last for almost a year though).
I like your explanations, although the mechanism of action for most of these substances may still be highly debatable. I'm new to nootropics, and I am wondering about those stacks containing dozens of substances. How do you know that some of them are not just placebos (did you try out the stack by eliminating one of the components for a while and noticed a difference?), or maybe some of them have reduntant actions and one of them could be replaced by a higher dose of the cheaper substance etc...
It seems to me that inevitably a lot of voodoo science is going on here.


Hey CrazyAndroid,

You are 100% right. I structured this stack as being moreso directed towards individuals such as myself, who have a good amount of expendable income to use on supplements.

If you are looking for purely nootropic benefits, many elements of that stack will only give very marginal improvements. I.e. a supplement like coenzymeQ and Lion's Mane may each give only 1-2% boosts in energy/motivation/nootropic benefit; many of them combined would be needed to really notice much of an increase in cognitive ability.

If you are trying to save money, I would stick with a very basic stack:
-Multivitamin
-Omega 3 Oil
-Choline (100-300mg per day)
-Acetyl L-Carnitine (300-1000mg per day)
-And when you get very stressed: Rhodiola Rosea (250-750mg per day)

Should be less than $100 per year ($0.27 per day)

And as always, exercise, proper diet, and getting enough sleep are your best nootropics...

-mban


Thanks mban,

I've already started using most of the ingredients of your main stack.
But I have some more questions:
-Why don't you have any B vitamins in your stack? I'd like to add Sulbutiamine or Pyrinitol unless their mechanisms of action are already covered by something else.. (in this newby guide, vitamins B1/3/6 getting a lot of attention: longecity org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-research-condensed-a-total-newbies-guide-to-nootropics/ )

-What do you think of Noopept? It's just fancy new and apparently 1000 times stronger than piracetam. I know you don't like racetams, but if I had to pick one, I think noopept would be the best choice (also for economical reasons, needs small dosage).

Posted by: mban Dec 15, 2012, 12:20 PM

QUOTE(crazyAndroid @ Dec 15, 2012, 09:47 AM) *

Thanks mban,

I've already started using most of the ingredients of your main stack.
But I have some more questions:
-Why don't you have any B vitamins in your stack? I'd like to add Sulbutiamine or Pyrinitol unless their mechanisms of action are already covered by something else.. (in this newby guide, vitamins B1/3/6 getting a lot of attention: longecity org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-research-condensed-a-total-newbies-guide-to-nootropics/ )

-What do you think of Noopept? It's just fancy new and apparently 1000 times stronger than piracetam. I know you don't like racetams, but if I had to pick one, I think noopept would be the best choice (also for economical reasons, needs small dosage).


I'll start with your question on Noopept: I myself have taken it and found that at low doses (10-20mg) it really doesn't affect my cognitive ability (either pos or neg). At higher doses (30-50mg per day) I found it to actually decrease my ability to work with and process information, mainly due to a decrease in working memory capacity. Its mechanism of action may speak to these results: It acts as an allosteric AMPA receptor agonist, but also acts to inhibit Ca2+ gated K+ channels as well as voltage gated Ca2+ and K+ channels. This means that Ca2+ that would enter through NMDA channels would potentially sit around longer, and act as a stronger intracellular signal. This may lead to Noopept having memory boosting properties. The problem is that K+ channel activation is needed to truncate the action potential duration down to a reasonable length of time such that signals can be repeated in quick succession and be processed as independent (I.e. If a pre-synaptic neuron activates the post-synaptic neuron, and the post-synaptic neuron then has an internal signal lasting for 100ms, then if the pre-synaptic neuron tries to send a second signal to the post-synaptic neuron within that time period the intracellular cascade within the post-synaptic neuron will be boosted, instead of just taken as a second signal). Within the nervous system there is a fine balance of the amount of neural activation that you want for each pre-synaptic signal and how long you want the post-synaptic signal to last. Modification of these properties with Noopept may lead to increased memory formation and potentially better sensory processing in those who have a particular brain physiology that it works well with (everybody has slight differences in the inner-workings of their brain), but for others it may have either no effect, or negative effects on their ability to process information in a well rounded way.

O, and that 1000X stronger bit is a load of crap. The two compounds have completely different modes of action, so they really can't be compared. It would be like comparing deprenyl to cocaine and saying that cocaine is X times stronger at boosting dopamine levels than deprenyl, when in reality those two compounds are worlds apart in how they exert their effects. Noopept is not even a racetam, as it does not contain the pyrrolidone ring structure characteristic of the racetams.

If you find a good supplier, I would say give it a try if you want, but don't go over 30-50mg per day, and don't expect a large change in cognitive ability.

Pyrinitol has been linked to liver cholestatic hepatitis and some other side effects such as allergic reactions and photosensitivity. It is essentially a molecule composed of vitamin B6 molecules, so I thought why bother. It may have some cognition boosting effects, but I don't think I'll risk it.

I haven't done enough research on sulbutiamine to speculate at this point. It is a thiamine (vit B1) derivative tho, so I am wondering how much of its effect is mediated via breakdown into thiamine...not sure.

In any case, I get more than enough vit B6 and B1 in my diet and with my multivitamins, so I'm not too pushed to purchase the above two.

Posted by: Anne`s fine Dec 18, 2012, 07:28 PM

i know little about the stack you guys are talking about so that i can not help with this.
and maybe the only thing i can do is to introduce good website for nootropics.

http://www.sunnootropic.com/lang-en/67-vinpocetine-cas-42971-09-5.html

Posted by: crazyAndroid Dec 22, 2012, 05:01 AM

QUOTE(mban @ Jan 28, 2012, 11:43 AM) *

Hello casa861,

This is my first post in this forum but I am very knowledgeable in this particular area (schooling in neuroscience) and think I could help you out. Notice that I put "dot com" in the links so that I could post this as it is my first time posting in this forum.

When looking at the brain and human memory you have to consider a variety of things which increase ability to store, process, and recall information:

1) Cerebral blood flow - Neurons require large portions of our bodily blood flow to function effectively. More blood flow equates to increased oxygenation, which is required for energy formation from the powerhouse of our cells, mitochondria. More blood flow also increases nutrient and protein availability in order to express brain relevant genes and help in the conversion of precursor nutrients into relevant molecules that are required for optimal brain processing.

2) Adequate supply of nutrients required for the formation of neurotransmitters - these include amino acids such as tyrosine (adrenaline/epinephrine, noradrenaline/norepinephrine and dopamine), tryptophan (precursor to serotonin), acetyl-CoA and choline (precursors to acetylcholine formation), etc.

3) A large supply of antioxidants - When parts of your brain are very active then generate large quantities of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which go on to damage cellular proteins, cell membranes, etc. Antioxidants act to "mop up" these ROS and prevent their eventual "brain fog" causing properties.

4) Excitability level - Neurons only send transmission after they have received enough activation in order to "fire" and send on their signal. The most prevalent source of excitation for cerebral cortex neurons is through activation of glutamate channels. This excitation is mainly opposed by GABA and glycine, which effectively blunt the signal as they are inhibitory.

5) Levels of neuronal branching - Neurons receive signals through their dendrites, which are like the arms of a tree. The more interconnections between neurons, the more dendrites there will be, and the more information the system can hold (more connections between concepts are able to be formed).

6) Metabolic health - Neurons, as cells, are required to produce large amounts of ATP (the energy molecule of the cell). More ATP means that they can fire more times without getting as exhausted.

Alright, now that you have a little background let’s get in to what to do to boost brain function. Here are the basics first:

A) A general multivitamin (best/cheapest I find is LifeExtension's 2 per day multi's) - Provide you with the general nutrients to manufacture brain chemicals. I buy mine from iherb dot com. You can use my coupon code "DET108" for $5 off if you are a first time customer (if you don't want to use my referral coupon, "BUY123" is the generic one for iherb where you still get $5 off but don't give anyone commission).
cool.gif Get plenty of exercise - While not a nootropic pill per say, this one is one of the best for increasing levels of nerve growth factor (NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), both of which increase the amount of dendrite branching and increase connections between difficult concepts, which helps with memory and with solving problems.
C) Get AT LEAST 8 hours of sleep a night - helps with keeping neuron energy stores high and promotes larger brain levels of NGF and BDNF.

After you have those ones down pact, here are the supplements/drugs/herbs that will help you out. Most can be bought from iherb dot com or nutrabio dot com (cheapest sources). Take all on an empty stomach. All separate doses should be taken 4-6 hours apart. Do not take less than 4 hours before bed:

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate (ALCA) - Much of the same purpose as ALCAR, but the additional arginate enables the molecule to interact directly with the NGF receptors which ALCAR increased. - take 100-200mg per day, in 2 separate doses
G) Lion's Mane mushroom - Has a host of benefits including immune system boosting effects. Main effect you are looking for is its ability to stimulate NGF receptors. - Take 2-3 grams per day, in 2-3 divided doses. Cheapest source of this is "fungihealth dot com/affiliate/450", but the bulk 1 lb powder (yes this is an affiliate link, if you don't want to support me at all you can just remove the affiliate portion of the link). Lion's mane can also be purchased from iherb and some other sources on the internet. You want to make sure that the source you buy from uses extracted mycelium, and not only the fruiting body of the mushroom, as the myecilium contains the most active NGF boosting molecules (erinacines).
H) Choline citrate/bitartrate/Alpha-GPC/Etc. - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
I) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
J) Gotu Kola, Rhodiola Rosea, Eleuthero, Brahmi - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Gotu Kola - 100mg, Rhodiola Rosea - 50mg, Eleuthero - 100mg, Brahmi - 100mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
K) (Optional) Resveratrol - Increases the number and function of mitochondria within neural cells, helping with metabolic health and increasing levels of ATP. This one is also seen as an anti-aging aid as it increases expression of genes associated with long life (I won't get too much into that here). Take between 50-500mg (based on how much money you have to spend) in 2 divided doses.
L) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five 1g capsules per day.


Here is one that you won't hear on most forums: Reduce your usage of piracetam/oxiracetam/etc. The racetams increase coordination between different brain areas, thereby increasing a brain wave pattern called "alpha waves". Sounds good doesn't it??? What most people don't understand is that the brain does its best work (most complex processing of information) when in a "beta wave" state. In contrast to the "beta" name, beta waves are actually of higher frequency than alpha waves. This means that there is less coordination between large sections of brain tissue. This is actually a good thing and I will explain why: Each brain area can be seen as a small parallel processor which is specific for a certain type of information. A small chunk of brain area from the occipital lobe of your brain processes only one aspect of visual information, and nothing else. Now, the racetams force larger brain areas to process info that they were never intended to process. This means that instead of an area of 5 mm cubic processing the equation "5+5=?", you would then have an area of 10 mm cubic processing this same task. As you can gather from this, it would be much better to have 2000 small parallel processors working on separate chunks of info and have a really good system in place to combine the information from the separate processors, then to use very large brain areas to process very simple concepts. In a study, physicists were given piracetam before attempting difficult physics problems; it was found to actually decrease their ability to process complex information (I don't have the reference for this off-hand, but you can look it up on pubmed if you are interested). The alpha waves associated with piracetam are associated with repetitive and moreso automatic tasks. They are really good for concentration if you are doing regular 9-5 jobs, but for intense study sessions, exams and complex material, I would keep their use to a minimum.

Cheers,

mban


I have some more questions about this stack. Most things cannot easily be bought as pure powder.
I got some pills and have difficulties to find out the actual dose.
For the Brahmi it says 3 pills/day and daily dose 330mg herbs, 660 mg herb extract (of which 52 mg bacosides (whatever that is...)). So I've been taking one pill per day that should be 110mg herbs, but I dunno did you mean with your recommended dose the pure active component?

Also I have these choline bitartrate pills, it says 650mg choline bitartrate and 260mg choline. Which is more important? but I think I'll change to alpha GPC anyways after what I've read about crossing of the BBB...

Also, do you think Phosphatidylserine would help in addition? Since the nerve cell membranes contain both phosphatydlcholine and phosphatidylserine (and choline + fish oil only helps in production of phosphatydlcholine but not phosphatidylserine ).

And one last question, what do you think about modafinil, I want to buy it, but only for occasional/emergency use. Some people take daily 100-200mg but that would be quite expensive...

Posted by: mban Dec 29, 2012, 03:28 PM

QUOTE(crazyAndroid @ Dec 22, 2012, 06:01 AM) *

I have some more questions about this stack. Most things cannot easily be bought as pure powder.
I got some pills and have difficulties to find out the actual dose.
For the Brahmi it says 3 pills/day and daily dose 330mg herbs, 660 mg herb extract (of which 52 mg bacosides (whatever that is...)). So I've been taking one pill per day that should be 110mg herbs, but I dunno did you mean with your recommended dose the pure active component?

Also I have these choline bitartrate pills, it says 650mg choline bitartrate and 260mg choline. Which is more important? but I think I'll change to alpha GPC anyways after what I've read about crossing of the BBB...

Also, do you think Phosphatidylserine would help in addition? Since the nerve cell membranes contain both phosphatydlcholine and phosphatidylserine (and choline + fish oil only helps in production of phosphatydlcholine but not phosphatidylserine ).

And one last question, what do you think about modafinil, I want to buy it, but only for occasional/emergency use. Some people take daily 100-200mg but that would be quite expensive...


If you are taking the bacopa in combination with the other supplements/herbs in that stack, then you will want to take 100mg or less of the herb extract, so if one pill is 100mg of extract then you only have to take one per day. If the pill/capsule contains 200mg of the extract, then take only a half pill/capsule a day.

Choline bitartrate provides the choline (260mg) listed on the bottle. Choline bitartrate is a molecule composed of a choline associated with a bitartrate. When choline bitartrate breaks apart in the body the choline is released and bitartrate released. 650mg of choline bitartrate breaks apart to release 260mg of choline and 390mg bitartrate. A single capsule per day should be plenty enough.

Phosphatidylserine may help in high enough doses, but at low doses there will be little to no effect. I wouldn't advise spending the money on it unless you have a good chunk of change to spend on larger amounts.

I can't comment on modafinil at this time, I haven't had any experience with it and I do not have time at this point to do extensive Pubmed searches for its pharmacology and side effects. Personally, I don't see its use as being necessary unless you don't manage your time correctly and get into a rut (i.e. cramming for a test). It is known to affect sleep quality, and sleep is necessary for the proper consolidation and integration of newly formed memories into the coherent whole, so try not to rely too much on it. If you were to take it, I would suggest taking an extremely low dose (10-25mg in the morning). Modafinil may result in skin and/or hypersensitivity reactions, so i'll let you be the judge of whether your current schooling situation really necessitates its use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens-Johnson_syndrome

Posted by: robertguitar10 Jan 12, 2013, 05:55 AM

QUOTE(mban @ Jan 28, 2012, 11:43 AM) *

Hello casa861,

This is my first post in this forum but I am very knowledgeable in this particular area (schooling in neuroscience) and think I could help you out. Notice that I put "dot com" in the links so that I could post this as it is my first time posting in this forum.

When looking at the brain and human memory you have to consider a variety of things which increase ability to store, process, and recall information:

1) Cerebral blood flow - Neurons require large portions of our bodily blood flow to function effectively. More blood flow equates to increased oxygenation, which is required for energy formation from the powerhouse of our cells, mitochondria. More blood flow also increases nutrient and protein availability in order to express brain relevant genes and help in the conversion of precursor nutrients into relevant molecules that are required for optimal brain processing.

2) Adequate supply of nutrients required for the formation of neurotransmitters - these include amino acids such as tyrosine (adrenaline/epinephrine, noradrenaline/norepinephrine and dopamine), tryptophan (precursor to serotonin), acetyl-CoA and choline (precursors to acetylcholine formation), etc.

3) A large supply of antioxidants - When parts of your brain are very active then generate large quantities of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which go on to damage cellular proteins, cell membranes, etc. Antioxidants act to "mop up" these ROS and prevent their eventual "brain fog" causing properties.

4) Excitability level - Neurons only send transmission after they have received enough activation in order to "fire" and send on their signal. The most prevalent source of excitation for cerebral cortex neurons is through activation of glutamate channels. This excitation is mainly opposed by GABA and glycine, which effectively blunt the signal as they are inhibitory.

5) Levels of neuronal branching - Neurons receive signals through their dendrites, which are like the arms of a tree. The more interconnections between neurons, the more dendrites there will be, and the more information the system can hold (more connections between concepts are able to be formed).

6) Metabolic health - Neurons, as cells, are required to produce large amounts of ATP (the energy molecule of the cell). More ATP means that they can fire more times without getting as exhausted.

Alright, now that you have a little background let’s get in to what to do to boost brain function. Here are the basics first:

A) A general multivitamin (best/cheapest I find is LifeExtension's 2 per day multi's) - Provide you with the general nutrients to manufacture brain chemicals. I buy mine from iherb dot com. You can use my coupon code "DET108" for $5 off if you are a first time customer (if you don't want to use my referral coupon, "BUY123" is the generic one for iherb where you still get $5 off but don't give anyone commission).
cool.gif Get plenty of exercise - While not a nootropic pill per say, this one is one of the best for increasing levels of nerve growth factor (NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), both of which increase the amount of dendrite branching and increase connections between difficult concepts, which helps with memory and with solving problems.
C) Get AT LEAST 8 hours of sleep a night - helps with keeping neuron energy stores high and promotes larger brain levels of NGF and BDNF.

After you have those ones down pact, here are the supplements/drugs/herbs that will help you out. Most can be bought from iherb dot com or nutrabio dot com (cheapest sources). Take all on an empty stomach. All separate doses should be taken 4-6 hours apart. Do not take less than 4 hours before bed:

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate (ALCA) - Much of the same purpose as ALCAR, but the additional arginate enables the molecule to interact directly with the NGF receptors which ALCAR increased. - take 100-200mg per day, in 2 separate doses
G) Lion's Mane mushroom - Has a host of benefits including immune system boosting effects. Main effect you are looking for is its ability to stimulate NGF receptors. - Take 2-3 grams per day, in 2-3 divided doses. Cheapest source of this is "fungihealth dot com/affiliate/450", but the bulk 1 lb powder (yes this is an affiliate link, if you don't want to support me at all you can just remove the affiliate portion of the link). Lion's mane can also be purchased from iherb and some other sources on the internet. You want to make sure that the source you buy from uses extracted mycelium, and not only the fruiting body of the mushroom, as the myecilium contains the most active NGF boosting molecules (erinacines).
H) Choline citrate/bitartrate/Alpha-GPC/Etc. - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
I) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
J) Gotu Kola, Rhodiola Rosea, Eleuthero, Brahmi - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Gotu Kola - 100mg, Rhodiola Rosea - 50mg, Eleuthero - 100mg, Brahmi - 100mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
K) (Optional) Resveratrol - Increases the number and function of mitochondria within neural cells, helping with metabolic health and increasing levels of ATP. This one is also seen as an anti-aging aid as it increases expression of genes associated with long life (I won't get too much into that here). Take between 50-500mg (based on how much money you have to spend) in 2 divided doses.
L) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five 1g capsules per day.


Here is one that you won't hear on most forums: Reduce your usage of piracetam/oxiracetam/etc. The racetams increase coordination between different brain areas, thereby increasing a brain wave pattern called "alpha waves". Sounds good doesn't it??? What most people don't understand is that the brain does its best work (most complex processing of information) when in a "beta wave" state. In contrast to the "beta" name, beta waves are actually of higher frequency than alpha waves. This means that there is less coordination between large sections of brain tissue. This is actually a good thing and I will explain why: Each brain area can be seen as a small parallel processor which is specific for a certain type of information. A small chunk of brain area from the occipital lobe of your brain processes only one aspect of visual information, and nothing else. Now, the racetams force larger brain areas to process info that they were never intended to process. This means that instead of an area of 5 mm cubic processing the equation "5+5=?", you would then have an area of 10 mm cubic processing this same task. As you can gather from this, it would be much better to have 2000 small parallel processors working on separate chunks of info and have a really good system in place to combine the information from the separate processors, then to use very large brain areas to process very simple concepts. In a study, physicists were given piracetam before attempting difficult physics problems; it was found to actually decrease their ability to process complex information (I don't have the reference for this off-hand, but you can look it up on pubmed if you are interested). The alpha waves associated with piracetam are associated with repetitive and moreso automatic tasks. They are really good for concentration if you are doing regular 9-5 jobs, but for intense study sessions, exams and complex material, I would keep their use to a minimum.

Cheers,

mban

mban,
First of all i am new to nootropics and am trying to improve my overall cognitive function as well as memory (short and long term). My current stack consist of 20mg Vinpocetine, 50mcg Huperzine , 60mg Ginkgo biloba extract, 130mg DMAE, and 310mg Choline. I intend to get the multivitamin as well as some of the other supplements listed in D-L. I dont sleep that great but am usually able to get 6-8 hours, I also exercise plenty. What specifically would you recommend to help with my tasks and would you recommend removing anything that i am already taking?
Thank you in advance.

Posted by: rob+3sigma Jan 13, 2013, 12:20 PM

Hi Mban,

Great post, however I do have one question. You say not to take different supplements together ie take 4-6 hrs apart. Surly there must be some of these that are synergistic and could be taken at the same time??

Thanks

Posted by: mban Jan 13, 2013, 05:30 PM

QUOTE(robertguitar10 @ Jan 12, 2013, 06:55 AM) *

mban,
First of all i am new to nootropics and am trying to improve my overall cognitive function as well as memory (short and long term). My current stack consist of 20mg Vinpocetine, 50mcg Huperzine , 60mg Ginkgo biloba extract, 130mg DMAE, and 310mg Choline. I intend to get the multivitamin as well as some of the other supplements listed in D-L. I dont sleep that great but am usually able to get 6-8 hours, I also exercise plenty. What specifically would you recommend to help with my tasks and would you recommend removing anything that i am already taking?
Thank you in advance.

I would recommend reducing the vinpocetine to 5-10mg as it acts to inhibit voltage gated sodium channels (reduces neuronal excitability), reduce the huperzine down to less than 25 mcg, and add in acetyl-l-carnitine and perhaps 100mg of rhodiola rosea and a couple capsules of fish oil per day.

QUOTE(rob+3sigma @ Jan 13, 2013, 01:20 PM) *

Hi Mban,

Great post, however I do have one question. You say not to take different supplements together ie take 4-6 hrs apart. Surly there must be some of these that are synergistic and could be taken at the same time??

Thanks

Hi Rob,
You misunderstood the dosing. Everything can be taken together at the same time, but it is best to split the dose up into several parts (i.e. take 250mg of ALCAR in morning and 250mg ALCAR in afternoon, instead of taking 500mg in the morning only).

Cheers,
Mban


Posted by: robertguitar10 Jan 14, 2013, 09:33 PM

QUOTE(mban @ Jan 13, 2013, 05:30 PM) *

QUOTE(robertguitar10 @ Jan 12, 2013, 06:55 AM) *

mban,
First of all i am new to nootropics and am trying to improve my overall cognitive function as well as memory (short and long term). My current stack consist of 20mg Vinpocetine, 50mcg Huperzine , 60mg Ginkgo biloba extract, 130mg DMAE, and 310mg Choline. I intend to get the multivitamin as well as some of the other supplements listed in D-L. I dont sleep that great but am usually able to get 6-8 hours, I also exercise plenty. What specifically would you recommend to help with my tasks and would you recommend removing anything that i am already taking?
Thank you in advance.

I would recommend reducing the vinpocetine to 5-10mg as it acts to inhibit voltage gated sodium channels (reduces neuronal excitability), reduce the huperzine down to less than 25 mcg, and add in acetyl-l-carnitine and perhaps 100mg of rhodiola rosea and a couple capsules of fish oil per day.


Ok, so i will reduce the vinpocetine and huperzine, I added Rainbow light multivitamin and with get fish oil. How much acetyl-l-carnitine would you recommend adding? Also, Are these amounts for 1 day or for 2 doses approximately 6 hours apart? Thanks in advance for your response and your previous one.

Posted by: mban Jan 14, 2013, 09:55 PM

QUOTE(robertguitar10 @ Jan 14, 2013, 10:33 PM) *

Ok, so i will reduce the vinpocetine and huperzine, I added Rainbow light multivitamin and with get fish oil. How much acetyl-l-carnitine would you recommend adding? Also, Are these amounts for 1 day or for 2 doses approximately 6 hours apart? Thanks in advance for your response and your previous one.


Hi Robertguitar,

A normal dose of acetyl-l-carnitine is between 500-1000mg per day. If you decide on 500mg, it means dividing that dosage into however many separate doses you want to take in a day (i.e. if you want to take it first thing in the morning and again in the afternoon, you would take 250mg in the morning and 250mg in the afternoon (4-6 hours after the first dose)).

All the amounts stated in my initial long reply were the daily intakes. Take 1/2 of the daily intake dosage in the morning, the other 1/2 in the early afternoon (4-6 hours later).

Posted by: mgrey Jul 22, 2013, 04:18 PM

I see that you've don a lot of research on the various individual components needed for peak focus. I was an avid piracetam user and still am. What I discovered, similarly to you, was that piracetam needed other components to work at its best. So I started taking choline, magensium, ALCAR, L-theaning, and resveratrol. I got bored with making my owns stacks though. So I've tried a few premade stacks, and honestly the best stack I found was from one I hadn't even heard of before. It's called trubrain, they give me a box that's nicely divided into daily doses of DHA, choline, piracetam, magnesium, L-theanine, tyrosine, and some other parts. They've been working great and I would recommend it if you would prefer having a premade blend.

Good Luck!

Posted by: mban Jul 22, 2013, 10:08 PM

QUOTE(mgrey @ Jul 22, 2013, 06:18 PM) *

I see that you've don a lot of research on the various individual components needed for peak focus. I was an avid piracetam user and still am. What I discovered, similarly to you, was that piracetam needed other components to work at its best. So I started taking choline, magensium, ALCAR, L-theaning, and resveratrol. I got bored with making my owns stacks though. So I've tried a few premade stacks, and honestly the best stack I found was from one I hadn't even heard of before. It's called trubrain, they give me a box that's nicely divided into daily doses of DHA, choline, piracetam, magnesium, L-theanine, tyrosine, and some other parts. They've been working great and I would recommend it if you would prefer having a premade blend.

Good Luck!


It seems to be a pretty good mix of ingredients, but it is extremely expensive...

Much better to buy the ingredients individually and mix them yourself if you're able to.

Posted by: cogni Jul 23, 2013, 09:44 AM

Hi everyone, Iīm a total newbie to all of the nootropic stuff. So, I have a question: should I supplement in cycles, even if I donīt want to use the racetams. For example, a basic stack with cdp choline, acetyl l-carnitine: 2 weeks on, a week off / 60-90 days on, a month (or more) off. Should I also add some lithium orotate, alpha lipoic acid etc.?
Another question: is it a good idea to start nice and slow and do the same with getting off the cycle. I mean, first week: 3 capsules/week, 5th-8th week: 7 capsules (250mg of cdp choline each)/week. So: 3-3-4-5-7-7-7-7-5-4-3-2 or is this not necessary at all?)
PS are there any issues if supplement also with protein (whey, casein), l-glutamine, bcaa or multivitamin "for athletes", such as twinlab daily one caps?

any help and suggestions are welcome and appreciated
Thank you in advance!

Posted by: mban Jul 23, 2013, 04:43 PM

QUOTE(cogni @ Jul 23, 2013, 11:44 AM) *

Hi everyone, Iīm a total newbie to all of the nootropic stuff. So, I have a question: should I supplement in cycles, even if I donīt want to use the racetams. For example, a basic stack with cdp choline, acetyl l-carnitine: 2 weeks on, a week off / 60-90 days on, a month (or more) off. Should I also add some lithium orotate, alpha lipoic acid etc.?
Another question: is it a good idea to start nice and slow and do the same with getting off the cycle. I mean, first week: 3 capsules/week, 5th-8th week: 7 capsules (250mg of cdp choline each)/week. So: 3-3-4-5-7-7-7-7-5-4-3-2 or is this not necessary at all?)
PS are there any issues if supplement also with protein (whey, casein), l-glutamine, bcaa or multivitamin "for athletes", such as twinlab daily one caps?

any help and suggestions are welcome and appreciated
Thank you in advance!


A) Yes, it is best to cycle. There are multiple different ways you can do this; what works best for me is to use my supplements Monday through Friday, then take the weekend off. I also don't take my stack any weekday that I know I won't be doing mentally challenging work. In a month period. this means that I will have taken 8 weekend days off, plus 2-7 extra weekdays off interspersed. Total of 10-15 days of not taking my supplements in a month to prevent tolerance.

B ) No need to start slow. Take a low enough dosage that gives you beneficial effects without causing tolerance week after week. A low dosage on the days that you are taking your supplements, plus cycling and not taking the supplements completely for several days, and you will get the benefits while preventing the tolerance.

C) There should be little issue with taking the supplements with protein, BCAAs, l-glutamine or multivitamins. Pre-workout mixes and other more stimulating workout supplements can be an issue (e.g. some pre-workout mixes contain large doses of caffeine, tyrosine, etc. etc.).

D) You can take alpha lipoic acid (ALA) if you desire, though I would suggest a low dosage (i.e. 100-200mg per day). No need to take lithium orotate unless you are dealing with a specific condition for which it's necessary. Lithium orotate gives no nootropic benefits, only mood stabilization at higher doses.




Posted by: cogni Jul 24, 2013, 12:51 PM

Thanks a lot, mban!
The thing with starting slow etc. was, that, so far I know, cdp choline hasnīt been tested for more than 90 days, but I also read comments from people, take it for years without any noticeable side effects and with cycles just like you do, it should be ok.
I have one more question: can you split your sleep in 2-3 sessions? So, for example: 6 hours at night and 1-3 during a day, I have heard in societies, living in kind of stone age, people sleep 3 times:at night, and somewhere 12-14 (siesta) and 16-18. some scientists suggest, that itīs our natural rhythm.

PS sorry for my bad English

Posted by: mban Jul 26, 2013, 08:40 PM

QUOTE(cogni @ Jul 24, 2013, 02:51 PM) *

Thanks a lot, mban!
The thing with starting slow etc. was, that, so far I know, cdp choline hasnīt been tested for more than 90 days, but I also read comments from people, take it for years without any noticeable side effects and with cycles just like you do, it should be ok.
I have one more question: can you split your sleep in 2-3 sessions? So, for example: 6 hours at night and 1-3 during a day, I have heard in societies, living in kind of stone age, people sleep 3 times:at night, and somewhere 12-14 (siesta) and 16-18. some scientists suggest, that itīs our natural rhythm.

PS sorry for my bad English


Sleep is very variable between individuals. If you can fit a 2 hour nap into the middle of your day, it's worth trying out to see if it can benefit you. I.e. Sleep 6hrs per night, and nap for two hours 1/2 way through your day.

A full sleep cycle is ~90 mins long ON AVERAGE, so I would make sure your 2nd sleep period is at least that long, but not much longer than 2hrs or you will enter another sleep cycle and wake up groggy when you try to wake up.

Posted by: cogni Jul 31, 2013, 03:00 AM

thx, mban!
Also, should I take, for example, acetyl l-carnitine and cdp choline at once or should I separate the intake of these ingredients, I mean, not to separate it into 2 dosages (what is already mentioned) but to leave a "gap" for 10 minutes or so between taking alcar and citicoline.

Posted by: mban Jul 31, 2013, 01:42 PM

QUOTE(cogni @ Jul 31, 2013, 05:00 AM) *

thx, mban!
Also, should I take, for example, acetyl l-carnitine and cdp choline at once or should I separate the intake of these ingredients, I mean, not to separate it into 2 dosages (what is already mentioned) but to leave a "gap" for 10 minutes or so between taking alcar and citicoline.

Nope, no need to separate intake of the ingredients (i.e. no gap necessary b/t alcar and CDP-choline, or the other ingredients that I mentioned).

Cheers,
Mban

Posted by: matthewebbert Aug 01, 2013, 02:05 PM

As per my knowledge , the best nootropic stack for beginners is any combination of Piracetam and Choline supplements.

Posted by: cogni Aug 15, 2013, 06:01 AM

QUOTE(mban @ Jul 31, 2013, 01:42 PM) *

QUOTE(cogni @ Jul 31, 2013, 05:00 AM) *

thx, mban!
Also, should I take, for example, acetyl l-carnitine and cdp choline at once or should I separate the intake of these ingredients, I mean, not to separate it into 2 dosages (what is already mentioned) but to leave a "gap" for 10 minutes or so between taking alcar and citicoline.

Nope, no need to separate intake of the ingredients (i.e. no gap necessary b/t alcar and CDP-choline, or the other ingredients that I mentioned).

Cheers,
Mban


thx!)

PS Is that possible, that the effect of taking only cdp is better, then in combination with ALCAR?

Posted by: matthewebbert Aug 21, 2013, 11:00 AM

A Nootropic stack is when more than one supplement is taken to boost or increase the affects.When building up a Nootropic stack, it is important to know which combinations to take together.

http://empoweredlabs.com

Posted by: mban Aug 21, 2013, 11:33 AM

QUOTE(cogni @ Aug 15, 2013, 08:01 AM) *

thx!)

PS Is that possible, that the effect of taking only cdp is better, then in combination with ALCAR?


If you are looking to boost acetylcholine (ACh) levels, taking both together is usually synergistic as matthewebbert mentioned with building a stack.

In this particular case, CDP-choline provides the choline moiety and ALCAR provides the acetyl moiety, with both choline and acetyl being necessary building blocks for the formation of acetylcholine. BUT: if too much of both are taken, and ACh levels are boosted too much, there is usually compensatory depression/lethargy.

Posted by: cogni Aug 25, 2013, 04:58 AM

matthewebbert, mban thank you, guys, one more time!)
I had a feeling, if supplement only with CDP gives me more boost, then a stack with ALCAR. But, I took these suplemets with no serious mental performance I had to do, just to try it out. Could it be the case, why I didnīt feel the synergistic effect?
The doses:
- cdp-choline 250 mg
- ALCAR 500 mg (divided into 2, with 250 mg each)

Posted by: matthewebbert Aug 26, 2013, 07:52 AM

The formula for the best nootropic stack is - a racetam or Noopept + Choline source + (optional) natural nootropics. A Nootropic stack is use when more than one supplement is taken to boost or increase the affects.

http://empoweredlabs.com

Posted by: cogni Aug 27, 2013, 06:47 AM

I already got it, matthewebbert, thx=)
Just wondering, why a combination with ALCAR wasnīt as good, as only cdp

Posted by: Tone Aug 27, 2013, 11:36 AM

The best nootropics stack is Good Genetics, Good Education & a limbic dopaminergic

Posted by: displayname Sep 08, 2013, 12:37 PM

QUOTE(mban @ Aug 21, 2013, 11:33 AM) *

QUOTE(cogni @ Aug 15, 2013, 08:01 AM) *

thx!)

PS Is that possible, that the effect of taking only cdp is better, then in combination with ALCAR?


If you are looking to boost acetylcholine (ACh) levels, taking both together is usually synergistic as matthewebbert mentioned with building a stack.

In this particular case, CDP-choline provides the choline moiety and ALCAR provides the acetyl moiety, with both choline and acetyl being necessary building blocks for the formation of acetylcholine. BUT: if too much of both are taken, and ACh levels are boosted too much, there is usually compensatory depression/lethargy.


Were you always a genius or is it the nootropics

Posted by: Maylene Sep 08, 2013, 09:31 PM

So I've been trawling this thread for awhile now, and have finally decided to create an account.
I'm a complete newbie to noots, and have been apprehensive about taking brain enhancing drugs because of all the stigma and bad rep that it has gotten in my country. I have come to understand that all these claims and worries were generally unfounded so I guess I should delay no longer and place my first order through ebay today!

I would like to state clearly first that the reason for my taking of nootropics is because 1) I have a major exam coming up in november, which is pretty much a do-or-die, whether I get into Uni that sorta thing for me.
so this brings us to 2) I only have about a month to study, taking into consideration that the drugs will take 2-3 weeks to get to me from the states. So from whatever (little) research that I did I would like to think that I've come up with a pretty reasonable stack that will improve my cognitive and memory recall skills.

Piracetam
Aniracetam
Oxiracetam
pyritinol
Sulbutiamine
Picamilon

Is that too much? Too little? I also have a bottle of coenzyme q10 lying around at home so will it make a difference l if I just throw it in the mix? I'm a bit iffy about the dosage as well, but I guess if I buy the capsule forms rather than the powdered ones I could just follow the appropriate dosage that they provide on the label, no?

If its helps here're my "stats". I'm 19, weighing in at 110-115 pounds, 156cm tall. The subjects I'm taking are History, economics, literature, math and general paper. So a lot of memorizing and analytical work is required of me.

Just wondering though, will this provide enough oomph in the short term, since I only have a month? With that being said I am not thinking of continuing nootropics until maybe next year when/ if uni starts, so if you have a harsher and more potent stack which will have side effects but only in the long term, then do recommend it to me to add on to my stack above, or even better, come up with a completely new one if you think I'm way off and I don't know what I'm doing, which I won't take offense at. Promise.


Thank you so much to whoever takes the time to read this and even more so to whomever takes the effort to reply!

Posted by: Zubrus Sep 12, 2013, 07:55 AM

mban,

hello! How long to take this supplements?

Posted by: mban Sep 19, 2013, 03:25 PM

QUOTE(Zubrus @ Sep 12, 2013, 09:55 AM) *

mban,

hello! How long to take this supplements?


Hi Zubrus,

If taken at the appropriate dosage, and with cycling as I suggested in a previous post, you can take these supplements for the rest of your life if you would like to.

Posted by: mban Sep 19, 2013, 04:53 PM

QUOTE(displayname @ Sep 08, 2013, 02:37 PM) *

QUOTE(mban @ Aug 21, 2013, 11:33 AM) *

QUOTE(cogni @ Aug 15, 2013, 08:01 AM) *

thx!)

PS Is that possible, that the effect of taking only cdp is better, then in combination with ALCAR?


If you are looking to boost acetylcholine (ACh) levels, taking both together is usually synergistic as matthewebbert mentioned with building a stack.

In this particular case, CDP-choline provides the choline moiety and ALCAR provides the acetyl moiety, with both choline and acetyl being necessary building blocks for the formation of acetylcholine. BUT: if too much of both are taken, and ACh levels are boosted too much, there is usually compensatory depression/lethargy.


Were you always a genius or is it the nootropics


Nootropics don't give a person any higher of an IQ, they just enable you to use what you have to the best possible extent and work at a high level for longer periods of time. Last time I measured my IQ I was somewhere in the low ~120 range; yet I have been able to out-compete most of my peers in university with grades and achievements that could get me into medicine, law, dental and/or grad school at most universities that I could think of applying to. Perseverance and hard work is the key...

Thanks for the complement tho =)

Posted by: tickyboy Sep 22, 2013, 12:22 PM

Hey all.... I've been looking around for some nootropics after experimenting with a few supplements. I came across ignite brain boost which looks promising. It doesn't contain coq10 which I've had a great increase of energy level, but otherwise it's not too bad so far.

Yes, nootropics do not make you smarter, but they do allow you to maximize your potential for knowledge, which is the most important thing


Posted by: tickyboy Oct 30, 2013, 04:51 PM

Ok... I wanted to give an update. I've become obsessed with boosting brain power, and I think I've found a great product!

It's called A+ Brain Boost by MNC. It suggests taking one capsule at a time, which is ok I find. However, when I double up the dose I find my concentration increases tremendously! So far it's been a big help in writing my next ebook.

I'd say it's a 4 star product. I'm kind of hesitant to try prescription stuff like modafinil, so I'm very happy with A+.

Anyone else try this stuff, or something similar - natural OTC?

Posted by: smartdrugsmexico Nov 12, 2013, 02:25 PM

I'm currently on selegiline 5 mg pills (Brand name NIAR here in Mexico) and it works pretty well for concentration, focus and motivation, when im not on selegiline i go for modafinil, brand name modiodal here... both are a little expensive but they are worth the money. on modafinil i can concentrate and plan , my verbal and working memory are very increased. I am pro smart drugs, here in mexico there is no smart drugs movements or communities or anything, the only good thing is that you can get almost any of this drugs without a prescription..... so if anyone wants something shipped from Mexico im here to help... i can purchase for you brand name selegiline, modafinil, strattera, any SSRI, Hydergine,etc my gmail is : smartdrugsmexico

Posted by: smartdrugsmexico Nov 20, 2013, 05:56 PM

I'm currently on selegiline 5 mg pills (Brand name NIAR here in Mexico) and it works pretty well for concentration, focus and motivation, when im not on selegiline i go for modafinil, brand name modiodal here... both are a little expensive but they are worth the money. on modafinil i can concentrate and plan , my verbal and working memory are very increased. I am pro smart drugs, here in mexico there is no smart drugs movements  or communities or anything, the only good thing is that you can get almost any of this drugs without a prescription..... so if anyone wants something shipped from Mexico im here to help... i can purchase for you selegiline, modafinil, strattera, any SSRI, Hydergine,etc  my gmail is smartdrugsmexico

Posted by: hedil Mar 16, 2014, 04:21 PM

QUOTE(mban @ Sep 19, 2013, 11:25 PM) *

QUOTE(Zubrus @ Sep 12, 2013, 09:55 AM) *

mban,

hello! How long to take this supplements?


Hi Zubrus,

If taken at the appropriate dosage, and with cycling as I suggested in a previous post, you can take these supplements for the rest of your life if you would like to.


Hi mban,

I've read through so many posts, every one seems to have a different opinion, but yours is the one that made the most sense to me. I have reread the whole thread but I have a question or two.

I'm female, 31, 5'3, 54 kgs. I've tried pramiracetam + Choline, I took it for about a month. I'm an extremely skeptical individual who believes in anything that is logical but at the same time questions what is logic. What I want to ask is Will your stack help in any social way? I'm extremely socially awkward, I have a very foggy mind, I can't concentrate when people talk to me, or it requires a lot of effort to keep up in a conversation, it happens that I want to say something, I can form the words very vaguely in my head but then I cat say them. I'm also very very creatively blocked and have a great lack of enthusiasm, I can't concentrate on anything, I can't read anything, and I'm always kind of multitasking but never getting anything done. I also can't think, there's some kind of mental blockage, and sometimes I feel like it hurts when I think too hard...If that makes any sense.

So my brother recommend the pram+choline, It took about a week for me to feel anything but after a week or so all those things pretty much diminished, and boy could i talk, and fast, my speech impairment was gone, things flowed. I'm a bit scared of chemicals, because I believe in the long run can just screw you up because it's not natural and our body can't deal with it. Which is why your stack has me me feel more at ease with giving it a try. I also realised the pram helped me a lot with levelling up my mood as I suffer from BPD with depressive tendencies (Borderline Personality Disorder) so the pram was a huge mood booster, I was completely stable during my intake. I also noticed that I stuck with one thing at a time until it was done.

I'm currently in the process of studying finances but I majored in Fine Arts, however I'm also in the process of continuing my art studies so I have that balance, don't know if it's good or bad. Also after reading your post I've subscribed to the gym a few days ago, because I also believe that exercise is a medicine. Should i take the stack before exercising or after? Anyway so what I want to know is will your stack help me socially emotionally and psychologically as well? because i liked how I felt taking the pram, I used to go out and not have to drink to become social, so that's what I'm looking for as well.
I stopped taking the pram because I don't feel it is something that I should be taken for a life time. However you noted on one of your replies if taken correctly your stack could be taken for a life time.

thank you in advance for your time in answering this.

Posted by: mban Mar 17, 2014, 07:43 AM

The stack can be taken either before or after exercising, it shouldn't matter. The stack has mood boosting properties due to containing both Rhodiola as well as Eleuthero, which will both act to buffer stressful situations. Whether they will ultimately improve your social interaction with other people, you will have to test out the stack and see. The Rhodiola and Eleuthero may boost your confidence in social interactions by boosting dopamine and serotonin levels.

None of the supplements in the stack that I suggested are harmful; you can take it over a lifetime without having to worry. I would recommend talking with your doctor about taking this stack and any possible interactions if you are taking any other medications.

As my post near the start of this thread mentions, it is also crucial that you have excellent diet and sleep patterns. If you are finding it hard to get enough greens in your diet (i.e. vegetables), you can also consider taking a superfood supplement such as Chlorella. I would recommend buying a bulk container (e.g. a 1 kg container can be bought from iHerb) and taking approximately 5 grams or more per day.

Cheers,
Mban

Posted by: maxhealthin Mar 25, 2014, 10:08 PM

Most popular nootropics series in market is like this

Racetams
Piracetam
Aniracetam
Oxiracetam
Pramiracetam
Phenylpiracetam
Coluracetam
Other Nootropics
Noopept
Sulbutiamine
Phenibut
Adrafinil
Sunifiram
L-Theanine
Adrafinil,Modafinil,Noopept

maxhealthin at gmail dot com

Posted by: Brain Hacker Dec 22, 2016, 03:05 PM

So much good advice in this one thread. Think I will be bookmarking it for future reference.

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